To Hillary's Supporters at the DU:

[David Zephyr]

First of all, with very few exceptions, in spite of the spirited and passionate debates that have transpired here at the DU, you have been very strong and reasonable advocates for Senator Clinton. Honesty also requires me to tell you that those of you who are still with her -- even now when the math is so stark -- are to be commended.

Over my long life of political activism, I have been on the side of losing candidates. I empathize with your current status of having to continue to soldier on for a candidate who, in this case, can not or will not accept defeat and who now requires her supporters to lower themselves beneath their own good standards to defend her.

Because I have known a lot of you as I've been here since early 2001 almost from the beginning of the DU, I have great respect for so many of you as I have read your posts over the years and feel a bond with you. This intra-family divide is painful to all of us.

The stark news is that Hillary and Bill have lost. I would have never believed this to have been possible this time last year. I was the guy that got mocked here for calling her campaign "flawless" and heaped praise on her and who had a real soft spot for both Bill and Hillary. I believed that her nomination was pretty much a done deal. Many of you don't know this, but I was a delegate to two national conventions and voted on the floor with the California delegations for...you guessed it: Bill Clinton. I have a photograph in my home of me in the Sacramento newspaper standing right behind Bill as he gave a speech there. That photograph is framed.

While all of our candidates were good, the truth is that Hillary excelled. But there also stood this young fellow from Illinois, who I didn't give a chance in the world to. Day by day throughout the year, he continued to impress me, and he continued to hit chords that Americans were aching to hear and have so responded to. And in doing so, he perhaps has forever transformed elections in this country by refusing lobbyist and P.A.C. contributions. No K Street? He was crazy to have done it, but he did. And at the same time, there was a generational change that was happening. This was a tide that old guys, proud boomers like me just never foresaw happening.

Certainly, this can not be easy on Hillary. And it can not be easy on Bill, either. She spent her life working hard within the establishment, playing by the establishment's rules -- most of them set up by white men -- and together with Bill shared the White House and history together for eight years at the very helm of world power. Their second shot at another eight years did not work out.

And perhaps more to the point, Hillary is 60...and that means that this was probably her last chance. So it's no wonder she's given it her all and has a hard time letting go. But it didn't work out. That's a very hard pill to swallow considering it was her life-long ambition, but compared to the victims of Katrina and those suffering losses from the war in Iraq and those losing their homes today, the Clintons will do just fine. They lost a political contest. And they need to accept it, because not doing so is destroying the party.

I'm glad that all of you who support Hillary are here. I honor your support of Hillary and your loyalty to her. That's a rare thing this day and age. But don't sully your own reputations, you good names for a lost cause.

We Democrats are all collectively wasting nearly $20 Million a month of precious Democratic donations (we are the party of the poor, not the big corporations and our funds are not easily replaced) prolonging this nonsense. Trying to wrest the nomination from the clear winner of the popular vote, the pledged delegates, and the winner of twice as many state contests through a backroom deal will not happen. Worse, suggesting doing so is unseemly and stains our party.

And as much as some of Obama's supporters may want to delineate the differences between the two candidates, there is really not that much that separates Obama and Clinton on the big issues in my eyes.

But, the threat to the planet, the threat to peace, the threat to our standard of living, the threat to our children is the Republican Party. And that threat is now incarnated in the candidacy of John McCain, the candidate endorsed by George W. Bush, George H. Bush and by Jeb Bush.

Over the last months, more and more of Hillary's fine supporters have been finding their way within their own hearts and minds to support Senator Barack Obama. It's happening on the big public stage, in households around the country and, it is happening right here at the DU, too.

I understand that some will not take this post as sincere, but it truly is. I can not find animosity to any of you and I will not take down my framed photo of me and Bill Clinton. Ain't going to happen.

And I can't brag that I was an early supporter of Obama. I only made that decision less than ninety days ago. So if and when you come over to support Obama, you'll be as new at it as I am and I'd like to have your company beside me.

Let me just say this to all of you who support Hillary here at our DemocraticUndergound, Senator Barack Obama would be most fortunate to have your support, your intelligence and your passion. I can promise you this: I know that he will make you proud.

Are you listening Tom Rinaldo? I have so much respect for you and your advocacy of Senator Clinton...I can't wait 'til we are on the same side against John McCain.

[grasswire]

1. It wouldn't be so bitter for people to swallow...

....if Obama supporters hadn't (in large part) been so meanspirited, divisive, and insulting.

[David Zephyr]

2. And I take some of that blame, too.

It was uncalled for. We are all better people than this. I share in the blame, grasswire.

[grantcart]

64. Yes we all do. But it is Bill Clinton today saying in quite plain terms

that he wants to fight it all the way to the finish line and nobody should be resigning for saying anything and its like football

get in there and hit somebody. One side's leaders is definitely more interested in making contact.

On the other hand Obama's supporters fall further from his example.

[natrat]

99. ie the stringpullers have paid him so much to stay in and trash the party

[sallyseven]

179. Trash the party? No I don't think so

I think that we will come together no matter who it is that we put up for president. Look at the alternative McShame who is incoherent, senile, and old beyond his years. Obama supporters are not doing him any favors. They have made me dislike him intensely.

[Bake]

166. Frankly, that's why I don't believe you now.

You OP comes off as condescending, as noblesse oblige. I'm not buying it.

Bake

[Hamlette]

6. Obama isn't his supporters and not all his supporters are meanspirited

as the op said, I too recently came to Obama believing either one would be great.

I supported McGovern and have had my heart broken many times.

but as John Cole says, that's what hearts are for.

We need to get on to beating McCain, not each other.

[niceypoo]

55. Obama is not his supporters but...

...his failure to give his supporters anything to talk about besides Hillary IS his fault.

As long as Obama avoids talking about policy, the longer his supporters will feel the need to attack his rivals to show their, 'support.'

Edwards talked about nothing but policy thus his supporters didnt feel a need to attack people to show their support, because they knew where he stood and could articulate it. This is not the case with Obama and his supporters.

[femmedem]

102. I hope you're enjoying the substance of his economic speech.

He also gave a substantive speech on Iraq right after his More Perfect Union speech, although it didn't get much press.

[niceypoo]

183. He has made a couple speeches...

...but only a couple. Edwards did nothing but talk policy, thus his supporters didn't have to go negative all the time. Obama has largely avoided talking about policy, instead reacting to whatever Hillary says or does on any particular day. His speeches on policy are the exception, not the rule.

[SammyWinstonJack]

105. ...

:thumbsup:

[USAcitizen]

170. I have never heard Obama publicly say anything

offensive against Hillary. The Clinton's do that all of the time. Bill spoke just the other day and said that Hillary and McCain love American. "Wouldn't it be nice to have Hillary vs. McCain, two people who love America" This happens at least once a week. But when it is talks about how dirty the campaign has been, both Obama and Hillary are implicated. That is why Obama supporters are so angry. That is why many people refuse to vote for her if she becomes the nominee.

[niceypoo]

184. Obama has his allies in the media doing it for him...

They have been doing it for months now, all in his name, with his tacit approval. Listen to Keith Olberman or Air America, nothing but a blanket party on the Clintons for months. This is what Bush did in 2000 and 2004, hovered just above the fray while his allies and supporters did all of his dirty work, all in his name.

[Buck Laser]

7. We could say the same things about Clinton's people...

But I won't and never have. I've backed Obama for over a year because I read his book and heard him in Austin. He just keeps getting better and smarter. When he makes missteps, he takes responsibility and remedies them faster than anyone I've ever seen in a lifetime of following politics. Should Clinton get the nomination, I'll support her enthusiastically: I've always said that--and meant it.

What bothers me is that some Clinton democrats seem to be buying into the shitstorm that the Dittoheads have been raising. Anyone who thinks this stuff is "pro-Clinton" or "anti-Obama" hasn't been watching closely enough. Its sole goal is to so discontent among the members of our party. If you blame Obama or Clinton for this, then I think you're a fool. So there!

[damntexdem]

10. To all, Obama and Hillary supporters alike: grow thicker skins!

Anyone who plans to vote for McCain if the "other candidate" is the Dem nominee is an idiot. To do so because supporters of the "other candidate" have been 'meanspirited, divisive, and insulting' is worse than childish. As bad as Other may be, there is no comparison to how bad McCain would be for this country, and, yes, for the Dem Party. And any plan to help the GOP win so the 'good Dems' can win in 2012 is just criminal. For one thing, what makes you think there would still be a Dem Party in 2012 if the Party can't win under present circumstances?

Look at it this way -- would the country have survived had Hoover won reelection in 1932? If it did, would the Democratic Party have survived? Would democracy have survived?

Now I don't discount the argument that supporters of either candidate have been 'meanspirited, divisive, and insulting,' but I am saying that a Dem must win this year or all bets are off.

[ekwhite]

52. Amen Tex!

There was a good turn today, when both Clinton and Obama attacked McCain on the economy. That is a welcome change from the past few weeks.

I am in total agreement that either candidate will be better than McCain, even though I am an Obama supporter. I hope that we can end this mess in a few weeks and start taking down McCain.

[Shae]

68. Grow thicker skins

is all well and good to say, but I see posts from people here, and they are hysterical and feeling crushed by the way they've been treated.
It would be as easier for some to say a kind word and show a little respect, than it would be for others to grow thicker skins.

Edited to say that I agree with you about the other stuff.

:D

[iamjoy]

91. That's Insensitive

Just thinking supporters should get over it is a little cold.

I think some are excessively focused on the primary, so determined to win this round and so devoted to their candidate that their vision has become narrow.

They are, understandably perhaps, bitter.

But we cannot allow that bitterness to destroy us. I do not agree that Clinton needs to drop out, but the tone of this primary must change. We have a huge fight on our hands for November. Half the nation sees McCain as a moderate (what a joke). Some co-workers of mine actually think he's Pro-Choice. McCain has the highest favorability ratings of any of the three. The longer the Clinton team and Obama team snipe at each other, the disparity increases.

If you are so wounded by the primary that you are willing to let McCain win, I question your committment to the Democratic Party and even the future of the nation. Do you want more Scalias and Thomases on the Supreme Court? McCain may have some good environmental credentials and of course, election reform. But the kind of justices he'd appoint would give a free pass to polluters and dirty money in politics under the guise of "strict constructionism." The justices he'd appoint would not stop at overturning Roe Vs. Wade - if there is no right to privacy in the constitution, what two consenting adults do in the privacy of their homes is no longer just their business.

I would ask if people are so stubborn and bitter that they are willing to have more of the same past 7 years?

[KAZ]

12. I've been guilty of that, much to my embarrassment.

There are mornings I wake up thinking, "why in the heck did I post such vitriol". It's really not in my nature. This is such a historic moment for the US, and for my perception of our country. To think that a woman and an AA were the top choices for our party. I still mist up thinking about. For this reason, I've never been so emotionally involved during a primary season, and I've been a political hound since '68.

Not that I post all that much anyway, I do hope that those whom I offended during the last 60 days will accept my apologies.

[Whisp]

25. I think I'm burned out or something

- after all those years of using those expletives towards Bush, I am just so disappointed that Hillary brings out a similar kind of anger in me by how she is running her race. it's easy to fly off the handle lately, and I've been doing too much of that for sure.

[KAZ]

31. I'm exhausted. Nov '04 just about killed me, and I've spent..

.. the intervening years screaming at the TV any time the Chimp or his minions appear. He was on again this morning, and I half listened, but I didn't scream. I was all screamed out, yelling at Clinton or her supporters during the last several weeks. Something very wrong about that.

The fact that I now telecommute is not helping matters. Too much time to read DU, with MSNBC on in the background. Maybe I should resume going to the office. Nah, gas is to high.

[ClayZ]

66. That sounds like our house!

I think I did hurl a few insults to the tv this morning when bu$h was talking. I called him Baghdad Bob Bush. My husband laughed.

We only have to go downstairs to work. Small commute.

We have been clenching our teeth since SCOTUS selected Pinocchio George.

Obama has given us so much hope!

[Radio_Lady]

175. Oh, Clay! I wish you and your husband lived next door.

We could all let out a bit of steam somehow!

Scrabble? Parcheesi? Break a pinata in the shape of * and get lots of chocolates? Pin the tail on George BUSH, using real darts?

[ClayZ]

182. Pin the tail on George BUSH , Real darts....Good idea!

Dang, that is marketable... Maybe not so much after November, er ..January!

We have made good use of the bu$h voodoo doll that I got right here on good ol' DU.

I showed it to a friend the other day. He "used" it, and I am afraid that shrub may now have hemorrhoids.

[David Zephyr]

45. You're a very good soul, KAZ.

:thumbsup:

[helderheid]

145. ditto

:blush:

[redqueen]

19. I'd say it doesn't help that the candidate herself is still insisting that the race is close. (nt)

[grantcart]

63. I understand how you feel

and some have gone way too far.

Perhaps you can also see that for some it seems that having fairly won the nomination (and for some it has been a dream of decades)some people want to take it away unfairly and that makes for heated reactions.

[calimary]

74. And I'd guess that it wouldn't be so bitter for people on Clinton's side to swallow

if the appeal for her to suspend - were presented this way.

I'm an Obama supporter myself. I've been torn for a long time and I feel growing anguish over what I see Hillary going through - and what her prospects are of emerging from this any stronger or more admired or respected - or seriously, maybe fatally damaged (at least politically speaking). She's too smart, too hard-working, too energetic, too creative, and too quick-witted to wind up being viewed as a pariah for hanging on too long and perhaps setting the party back for another four years. Everything she's done or tried to do of genuine concern and love of her country - stands to be thrown down the garbage disposal because of this. I wish this wouldn't be happening to her. I have been an admirer of Hillary Clinton ever since it first hit me that my new First Lady was not another rumpled granny or anorexic, elderly control-freak. On that marvelous election night in 1992, I realized that the incoming First Lady, for the first time in my life, was someone I could actually relate to on a personal level. I actually had some things in common with her, including general age bracket and background, as well as political opinions and priorities. That was the first time in my life that I had that feeling, and deep down, it forged a strong bond within me for her.

What's happening now makes me so sad. She and Bill are going to wind up being reviled, when we should all be basking in the difference between THEIR decade and bush's decade, and whose stewardship was CLEARLY the better one - ESPECIALLY as bush leaves (YESSS!!!) the picture and the obvious and inevitable comparisons begin between his awful years and those of the Clintons. They're raining on their own parade. It breaks my heart.

Dammit.

This OP was truly lovely and generous, and beautifully stated. That's the kind of sensitivity and tact that's needed across the board now. Not just here on DU, either, but PARTY-WIDE. If I were a Hillary Clinton supporter, I would appreciate the thoughtful and conciliatory timbre of this offering, and I wouldn't be offended at all.

BRAVO, David Zephyr!!! I salute you!!!!

:patriot:

[IsItJustMe]

112. History will not be kind to the Clintons. To much very bad water has already ran under that bridge.

[grannylib]

160. And what YOU posted was also well-stated - and I agree. I feel

so disappointed, not just in what I feel is happening in the Clinton campaign, but in myself for reacting to it as I do sometimes. I thought she was a great change in First Ladies, and had things taken a different turn, I would have been proud to support her. It is heartbreaking.

[avrdream]

86. I ain't swallowing that pill just quite yet.

But find that I agree with your assessment of the meanspirited, divisive, and insulting posts that have been found here over the last few months.

It is frankly very disheartening.

[BearSquirrel2]

118. I think once this is over ...

I think once this is over we can all kiss and make up. But you will have to admit that Hillary's unfavorable comparison of Barack Obama to John McCain crossed a fundamental line in the sand that should have have been crossed. It made a unity ticket in either configuration impossible.

We could be celebrating a Obama/Clinton ticket. Instead we will have a divisive brawl that will not end until the convention unless one candidate bows out. I see know logical reason why a candidate with a commanding lead should bow out or consent to being VP for the #2 candidate. The only way this will end early is if Clinton reads the writing on the wall and drops out. Maybe they can make a deal to make her majority leader or a cabinet secretary.

Just remember everyone. It's not over even though the outcome is pretty obvious.

[yardwork]

119. I know that is true - the behavior of many Obama supporters here kept me from supporting him

for a long time.

Neither Obama nor Hillary are my top candidates. The country needs to make significant changes. Unfortunately, those who advocate for those changes are dismissed as radicals. It's too bad, but that's the way it is. On the other hand, I strongly disagree with the demonization of any Democrat. These daily attacks on both Hillary and Obama are harmful to our party and our future - the future of the entire world.

I began supporting Obama about a month ago. We need to unite behind a candidate, and he's the one this time.

Now we need to united and defeat the Republicans. The corporatist establishment is not on our side, and they have most of the money and power. There is too much at stake to allow anybody's ego to endanger the election of a Democrat to the White House. The Clintons need to stand down.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

120. . . .

[shrdlu]

128. Amen to that...

[The Doctor.]

142. Unbelievable. Finger-pointing right out of the gate.

Be ashamed.

[2rth2pwr]

3. Nice try. Hillary will get the nomination, we all know that she

will do what it takes to win. The party will be fine and will rally behind her.

This squabble will be a faded memory in October.

[K Gardner]

26. Wow. Way to support continued denial.

[JDPriestly]

71. Don't be so sure.

I am an Edwards supporter. I disliked Obama and Hillary equally. After Edwards suspended his campaign, I read about Obama's church and leaned more toward Hillary. Obama's speech about his pastor and race reassured me, so I lean more toward Obama.

The race is close, but not close enough for Hillary to win without disgusting everyone. If Hillary wins by stealing her nomination or by playing really rough, the Republicans will paint her as a she-wolf and she will lose the election. It's one thing to be strong. It is quite another to fight with rocks in your gloves. Hillary needs to think about the difference.

I have to say that I have found a lot of Obama supporters on DU to be absolutely awful. That was apparent when Edwards was running. The Obama folks were absolutely nasty. It makes me wonder to what extent some of Obama's supporters have chips on their shoulders from way back and whether Obama's supporters have the balance and humility to use the power that they will have when Obama has the nomination with good judgment.

Hillary horrifies me. The Obama supporters scare me. More than ever, I wish Edwards could be our candidate. At this point, either Hillary or Obama needs to quit and allow the other candidate to run in November. Obama is ahead. Hillary should, therefore, quit. I would be very happy if there is an impasse at the convention and Edwards is nominated on the second or a later vote. That would be perfect as far as I'm concerned.

[IsItJustMe]

113. Denial is hell, isn't it.

[Nitrogenica]

4. I love your post. Thank you.

I am fairly confident we will all be proudly smiling after the 2008 election is over, with Barack Obama as our President.

What I like most is that he addresses me as an adult. He get's right to the heart of the issues, like his speech on the economy did today.

But more than anything, he makes those of us who rely on petty smear campaigns and Rovian tactics look foolish and childish. He disects the smears and does it in a way that people can connect with.

The attacks are coming, but there is now we will have a powerful communicator to help us shine a light on exactly why going negative every election is so wrong for our country.

[panader0]

5. Great post. Rec'd

[Catherina]

8. David Zephyr you're a real mensch

I hope you get a photograph one day of you and President Obama to frame next to the one with Clinton.

[David Zephyr]

43. I'd love to have that photo.

I doubt that at this stage in my life it would ever happen, but it would be great.

A Republican that I've argued with since the 1990's and who lives in San Diego called me today on business matter and then sheepishly told me that he, his wife and his father were all voting for Barack Obama and doing so with great enthusiasm.

There is a tide turning in America, Catherina.

[here_is_to_hope]

9. I dont think at 60, this is her last chance...

Look at Mclame pushing who knows what be he is old.
That said, she needs to read your piece.

[totodeinhere]

35. Right, she is young enough to run in either 2012 or 2016, depending..

on what happens to Obama in the general election. But if she wants to run again she has to stop alienating so many of her fellow Democrats. If she doesn't make amends, her presidential aspirations are over.

[ekwhite]

54. Agreed

Her campaign is starting to alienate party insiders with tactics like the donor letter to the DCCC. If she really wants to run in 2012 or 2016, she should find a way to save face and pull out after Pennsylvania or North Carolina. If she continues with these shameful tactics to the convention, she will be lucky to hold on to her Senate seat, no less win the Presidency.

[totodeinhere]

154. And she will also drag down Bill's legacy.

[BigBearJohn]

11. Great post. Reminds me of the old DU. Thanks for your sentiment.

[kentuck]

13. David...

A little hard on the Hillary supporters, aren't you? :-)

PS... One of my bragging points with my family is that I was once on a conference call with President Bill Clinton. The past is prologue.

[MoonRiver]

14. Before the nomination process began, Hillary was my absolute last choice.

The people I wanted to run didn't, so I had to choose from a group of frankly, uninspiring candidates. At that point, and until the New Hampshire debate, she was still far from first on my list. I tended toward Edwards, and was a little intrigued by Obama. But the Obama's despicable behavior toward Clinton, and the rampant media smears and lies about her, turned me in her direction. Once I was open to her message, I heard it, and was frankly very impressed. During every debate I intensely listened to and processed what the candidates were saying. Hillary hit it out of the park almost every time. Contrarily, the more I heard from and saw Obama, his wife, and their racist pastor, the more determined I became to NEVER vote for him.

There you have it. He's probably going to get the nomination, but he may well experience that old maxim: you may win the battle, but lose the war.

Thanks for being nice to we Hillary folk! That's a rare commodity here! :hug:

[sellitman]

33. Never?

Eight years of Republican rule wasn't bad enough for you?

That's exacty what you saying.

By writing in, voting third party or staying home you are voting for McCain.

[David Zephyr]

39. MyPetRock, I still love ya.

How could I not? Let's hope this all comes to some conclusion quickly. It's just too painful. Hillary is not the enemy and Barack is not the enemy. John McCain trying to repackage "compassionate conservatism" again...that's the enemy.

[lumberjack_jeff]

47. Hillary was my last choice too.

The dealbreaker for me is Obama's healthcare plan. Its main selling point is that it is innocuous. It's also its fatal flaw. A plan which leaves 20 million people uninsured is worse than no plan at all. Failing at this will be used as proof that public healthcare solutions don't work. It must be universal.

There are three things that are important to me this time 'round.
1) health care
2) the war
3) supreme court choices

On 2 and 3 the candidates are indistinguishable. For #1, Obama is in the thrall of his Friedmanite economics adviser Austan Goolsbee.

So long as she has a pulpit to push better policy, I'll be in the audience.

[RaleighNCDUer]

153. I must disagree, respectfully, on all three points.

1) healthcare - NEITHER is any good, because neither is supporting profit-free universal health care supported by taxes. The biggest problem with Hillary's plan is that it will have the surface look of being 'universal', enough that people will think the problem is solved - ensuring that nothing more will happen for a generation.

2) I don't see Hillary doing anything substatial to stop the war in Iraq - it is not in the DLCs plans. She and Obama also differ on Afghanistan, where he will more vigorously pursue the people who actually attacked us on 9/11. We don't need to replace neo-cons with neo-libs; we need to end the empirialism.

3) DLC, again, will see to it her appointees will be 'centrist', which will do little to balance the rightward shift of the court - the ONLY positive that she would be certain of is protecting choice, but there are so many, many more issues at stake.

She remains my last choice.

[scrucon]

152. Hillary was one of my first 2 choices,

because with the exception of Edwards, everybody else was an insipid buffoon. Dodd? Biden?? My God, that would be bizzarro world. I never find Obama inspiring and I've heard all of his speeches, but the thing that clinched it for me is that he sat in that church and listened to that racist for 20 years. I'm sorry, I refuse to believe that that pastor doesn't always talk like that. And if that's what he claims, if he's claiming it genuinely, he really is much more a fool than even I think now.

So, I won't vote if Obama is the nominee. I hope he loses the war. Hillary loves our country and has experience. I hope she wins, because if Obama wins, I won't vote. I certainly won't vote McCain, but if Hillary is out, I'm out.

[Binka]

165. Get Lost Concern Troll

Scoot!

[sallyseven]

180. Very good. I wonder if the Obama

folks know about Mrs. Obama's hatred for white folks? No wonder they stayed at that church. There is information out there that should scare the pants off all of you.

[KAZ]

15. As always David, wonderful post.

[myrna minx]

16. Beautiful post. n/t

[H2O Man]

17. Well said.

Nominated.

[redqueen]

18. Noooo... Hillary says it's close.

"Trying to wrest the nomination from the clear winner of the popular vote, the pledged delegates, and the winner of twice as many state contests through a backroom deal will not happen. Worse, suggesting doing so is unseemly and stains our party."

Surely those are lies!

CLINTON: Well, this is a really close election. You know, despite what, you know, some might say, it is a very close election in the popular vote and in the delegates. We have 10 contests ahead of us, plus don't forget Florida and Michigan.

[BumRushDaShow]

20. K&R

:kick:

[sniffa]

21. Here's a K&R from me

Well said, and that's coming from someone who I think seems to have a reputation here. :thumbsup:

[Arkansas Granny]

22. Thank you for a reasonable, well written post. I will be voting for the Democratic nominee

this fall, regardless which candidate that may be. I'm supporting Hillary because I feel she is the best choice of the two candidates remaining. As you said, there is not that much difference between the two on the major issues, but I know her to be strong, intelligent and committed and I have always admired those qualities in her.

I realize that many people are anxious to get this over with and announce the nominee, but why don't we let the nomination proceed with the rules that were in place before the primary began and let the chips fall where they may. We will have a strong nominee in the end, regardless which one, and then we can unite to defeat the Republicans in November. My fear is that if we force the conclusion of the nomination process by altering the rules now, the party faces a greater risk of being torn apart than if we let it go to the convention. If the party leaders really feel that the party is at risk, it seems that they would step in to hasten the conclusion. They are obviously not doing that yet.

[REACTIVATED IN CT]

134. Granny - the party leaders are starting to step in

The danger in letting this go too long is an abbreviated GE campaign by our nominee.
We can't afford to wait until the end of August to nominate when the Repubs already have their candidate

"altering the rules" would mean counting the MI and FL delegates or having a re-do when the DNC rules were clear at the time they set their primary dates.

[Mike03]

23. This is probably the best post I have read on this forum since the primaries began.

Thank you for writing this.

Rec.

[phrigndumass]

24. K+R

:kick:

[Window]

27. K/R.

:thumbsup:

:kick:

[LisaM]

28. What if I just don't care for the alternative?

I have increasingly found Obama to appear haughty and arrogant. I think his sense of self-importance is inflated. I think he's painted Hillary into a place where she can't use her life struggles to succeed as a woman as a platform of her campaign. I think that is terribly unfair. I also strongly resent that he has allowed both she and Bill to be painted as racists. He should have stopped that meme as soon as it started. It's all very upsetting. And this is aside from some of his supporters and the negative experiences I had at my caucus, where the Hillary people weren't allowed to speak and people on the other side were gleefully painting her as hateful!

[scrucon]

155. What she said.

That's exactly right, LisaM. I actually don't care how his supporters behaved at my caucus. It is him that I find unacceptable. And I'm really disappointed in Democrats for rallying behind an empty suit. He says nothing. He deos have an exaggerated sense of his own importance. And, as you pointed out, he said nothing when people began to cast the Clintons as racist. I hope the superdelegates all go to Clinton. And I'm SO disgusted by Kerry for having endorsed Obama.

[BootinUp]

29. I reject the premise that the race is over.

Sorry.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

106. How do you feel about the relative roundness of the Earth or it's atmosphere's hue?

:)

[BootinUp]

137. lol nt

[ClericJohnPreston]

30. Thanks for your thoughts

Your sentiments are much appreciated David Zephyr, which is why I'm so sure that you will be happy to hear I won't support Obama until the last possible second.

Unlike you, I came from a very far left perspective of the Democratic Party, no where near the moderate middle you and all your fellow Obama supporters are so fond of. Frankly, I find it hard to get worked up for anyone whose policies, when you actually read them, sound like Democratic-lite. He makes Hubert Humphrey sound like a revolutionary.

So, I will continue to fight for the heart and soul of my party, by rallying the left-wing. I fear there will come a time, when I and others, of the similar persuausion, curse those who led us down a ruinous path to ultra-moderation.

Thanks again for the well wishes. I'll be looking for you when the Party turns back the clock to fit a more Progressive agenda.

[David Zephyr]

34. How about the last two possible seconds, ClericJohnPreston?

Well, perhaps my politics are much closer to yours than you think. I said I voted for Bill at two national conventions. That was true, but in 1992, my first vote was on the floor for Jerry Brown.

You can check the archives here at the DU, I not only opposed the buildup to the war in Iraq, I was among only a handful that opposed our making war in Afghanistan. Not hardly a "moderate" position. I support nationalization of the entire healthcare system (as Kucinich endorses) because I have lived within that system and know it is a better one. I support the nationalization of most of the airlines. I support nationalization of America's energy reserves. I support eliminating the Department of the Homeland Security. I support closing down nearly all of American military bases overseas. I support free university for every American. I could go on, but I think you get the picture. But just in case, my holiday gifts to friends and family every year is the renewal of their subscriptions to The Nation.

Finally, alongside that framed picture of me and Bill Clinton are also framed pics of me with Jerry Brown, Jesse Jackson, Gore Vidal, Howard Zinn, and my long-time hero, Tom Hayden, among others.

I see that you still proudly have the Edwards banner in your post. I respect that and if John was where Obama was now, I'd be there for him, too...in spite of the fact that he voted and supported the Iraqi War Resolution. Why? Because John Edwards would have made a great leader of our country.

I know that you may not accept this, and I am not trying to "sell" you anything, but I ask you to just consider for a moment just how difficult it is for a black man to speak out on the explosive issue of Class in America without being branded a Black Panther in a nanosecond. It's far easier for whites to go there than it is for people of color. I don't have any doubt that Barack Obama's understanding of Class structure is as developed as John Edwards. Both grew up with it. No one has to tell them anything in this regard.

[polmaven]

92. David, thank you..

But - there is always a but, isn't there?

You obviously have made no difference at all to some of Senator Obama's supporters here. They will continue to be hateful and spiteful. I will say that that may be attributed in many cases to age factors and, well, to political experience, if you will.

Just after that amazing run of - what was it- 12 or 13 states won for Senator Obama, I went to the Obama Supporters Group to say congratulations, and that, if he was to win the nomination, I would happily join you.

Since than, I, and others who support Hillary on this board, have been treated so badly by some that that enthusiasm to "join" you has been heavily damaged. I will, of course, support Senator Obama WHEN he is the official nominee.

Now, to your last point of this post. I will ask you to consider how difficult it is for a WOMAN to speak out on the explosive issue of Class in America without being branded a "Feminazi", or worse. It is also far easier for a man to go there than for a woman. Women are still very much considered to be second class in this country....Even Senator Obama spoke directly of Hillary's "claws" coming out when she "gets upset". The difference is that, each and every time misogyny and or sexism is even hinted at, those in the MSM, and even here, jump all over it as "playing the victim card". I do not see that happening with Senator Obama.

[nvme]

132. you are correct.

I too am fond of the Clinton years and of Hillary's accomplishments. I consider the faminism or the racism angles. Looked the neither gender or skin color when committing to my support of a campaign. I originally liked Edwards for his work to overcome poverty and support of higher education. I heard some rumblings about obama. then i caught a clip of his convention speech. I was impressed with the fact that he wasn't like previous black candidates. He was not heavily pursuing the civil rights angle. Edwards and Clinton lost my support with the IWR. That is what solidified my support for Barack. I went to a democaratic rally in Miami back in August. From his speech i finally heard someone speak to me as an adult about the challenges we are faced with. I was sold, also the fact that he was the long shot candidate didn't hurt (I do like my underdogs) I was ready for defeat in Iowa but it didnt happen. I was bummed by NH but then other candidates dropped. then super tuesday happened and then the weekend that followed happened. today I see a candidate that won 28 or 27 (if I am exagerating forgive me)states and has overtaken what would have been the leading candidate. If I as a Obama supporter, offend you I am sorry for my entheusiasm. I get angry like everyone else. I will try and refrain from being petty. I do believe that Hillary has not been served well by her advisors. I do believe they have failed her. I recognize that her supporters are very good people whom i identify with on many issues. Your support toward her impresses me. Your arguments enlighten me towards her strenghts.
My greatest Criticism is the kitchen sink strategy and the praising of McSame. I do not believe this is going to work for her should she recieve the nomination. I am angered by the Obama team going negative as well it makes it hard for both sides to crossover once the primaries are done. Both candidates are worth of support period end.
If somehow Clinton does pull it off without overturning the will of the people and delegates I will entheusiastically support her. If she pulls a backroom deal and gets the nomination, then I will grudgingly support her. By that i mean i will send only my vote and not my money. I hope that those of you who support hillary (should she not get the nomination) will at least give the vote. that is what will count most. support of any kind will be appreciated.

If there are any who are part of Team Obama and Team Clinton, who has any decision making capacity Please stop the mud. We are fellow democratic party members Help to unify.

[Sparkly]

32. If you're trying to catch donations with honey instead of vinegar...

You might start by not lecturing people on 'realities' that you see and they don't, claiming to respect them after so many hostile posts, writing things about her supporters "lower(ing) themselves beneath their own good standards" or warning them, "don't sully your own reputations, you good names for a lost cause."

Just let the thing play out.

[SoonerPride]

36. It has played out. It is over,

Sorry.

[Sparkly]

37. Then why post such announcements? nt

[David Zephyr]

42. Honey.

You have very good standards, Sparkly, because I know your postings. And "sully" was too strident. I stand corrected. I won't defend Obama for the indefensible and I'm suggesting that those here who support Hillary in these narrowing days of her candidacy do likewise. I know you always have. I hope I always will.

[BearSquirrel2]

121. It's played out dude ...

It's done and played out. Hillary cannot catch Obama in pledged delegates unless she starts having the types of steamroller wins that Obama has had in some states. For all the hey Hillary made about Ohio and Texas, Obama won Texas and her Ohio wins have since been erased in subsequent contests.

Likely the remaining super-delegates are waiting to vote with their constituencies. In which case ... Obama still wins. The Pastor flap is NOT hurting Obama. He turned it around with his race relations speech. Hillary on the other hand got caught telling a whopper that makes her look fraudulent and phoney.

Obama IS the Democratic nominee for President. Hillary is just delaying the official declaration, wasting precious time and money and driving a wedge through her own party.

[NastyRiffraff]

38. I usually automatically bypass ALL posts with "To Hillary's Supporters"

or variations. It's almost sure to be insulting at best, vicious at worst. Almost always stupid. Yours wasn't, David, on the whole. I agree with one poster here who called you on telling us our reputations are "sullied" (forever?? Wow.) simply by continuing to support Hillary.

Sorry, I can't find it in my heart to support Obama. Oh, I'll vote for him...I'd vote for Satan himself if he ran against McCain, so long as the Prince of Darkness promised to support the Democratic platform. I tried to like Obama...truly I did. But a combination of things just turn me off; so much so that I highly doubt I'll ever be turned on. Some of it is the fact that he wants to make nice with the very Republicans who spit in Congressional Democrats' eyes when they tried to do the same. Over and over again. Part of it is that I see him as arrogant, who's allowed himself to be virtually deified by some of his supporters. And yes, part is because of some of those supporters, who seem to have picked up some of their candidate's arrogance. No criticism allowed! Obama is ALWAYS right! Blessed Be His Holy Name!

I do respect you, David. I think you are sincere, although, again, you really shouldn't have typed that bit about sullied reputations. I cannot respect your candidate. Sorry.

[David Zephyr]

41. And I stand corrected.

Your reputation is sound with me.

And anyone who says they'd "vote for Satan himself if he ran against McCain" can never have their reputation "sullied".

I stand corrected.

[swishyfeet]

40. K

Crap, still can't recommend....

I've probably spent a couple weeks of my life here in the past year, but I still don't have enough posts to "R". The poo fest that is the GD P these days, I think I should get some credit for keeping my f'ing mouth shut - doncha think? :)

Oh, and well put David!

[David Zephyr]

48. Welcome to the DU, swishyfeet!

:hi:

Your 21 now! Hope to see you around more.

[ginnyinWI]

164. I'll rec it for you

:)

[SaveAmerica]

44. I recommend this as THE post of the month, it's a much needed balm around here

I'll be back to kick this as often as I can, it should stay at the top of this forum for a month. Changing your support from one candidate to another is hard (Edwards - sob). Thank you for writing this.

[NastyRiffraff]

46. Oh yes...I forgot

K&R

First time I've ever rec'd a post that began "To Hillary Supporters" (or variations) :)

:kick:

[cornermouse]

49. Premature

and while you may really think you're being gracious and extending an olive branch, it sounds condescending from a point of view other than your own.

[mcollier]

50. Note...

All Barack Obama supporters, please focus on campaigning against John McCain. He is our opponent. And he is already defeated.

Please pass it on....

[David Zephyr]

80. Welcome to the DU, mcollier.

:hi:

[cornermouse]

85. Can't even tolerate something as mild as what I wrote?

Interesting.

[Swamp Rat]

51. Thank you very much.

The raises the level of discourse here, once again to a more lofty place. :)

[Armstead]

53. Aren't you jumping the gun? The Fat Lady hasn't sung. (No sexism implied)

[zulchzulu]

56. K&R

I sincerely hope that I can visit the Bill Clinton Library in Little Rock again with the kind of pride I felt when I was there several years ago. I still have my Bill Clinton 1992 press pass and permit that I had to wave at security in San Francisco on Election Night 1992 to get into the raucous party at the Fairmount Hotel on Nob Hill.

I'd like the Clintons to realize what has happened and gracefully step aside before it gets too ugly and at a point of no return for their legacy. They have to know that it's about a 5% chance that Hillary Clinton will be the nominee at this point. They have a choice...bow out after what I think will be a defeat in Pennsylvania or continue to try to destroy the very people that supported them in theor darkest times.

We need to turn the cannons off ourselves and into the direction of the SS McCain Ship of Fools. Sooner than later...

[NoBushSpokenHere]

57. Very well said OP

It is difficult to switch allegiance to candidates. I didn't know much about Barack and at one time was 100% in favor of Hillary Clinton. I defended her up until the 2004 election. A few months ago, I was watching the news and railing about Edwards not gaining ground. While railing, I stated, "I don't trust Hillary and I don't know anything about this Obama guy outside of he gave a great speech at the convention" adding, "Maybe if I would have seen that speech I would feel different."

At that very moment, Barack began a speech. He caught my attention right away and I began really listening to what he was saying. It was as if he was speaking not only to all middle class and poor, but directly to me. I said after his speech was over, "He is going to be the next President." The next day, I spoke to someone who I have known for a long time, who complained because they kept hearing Barack refer to his plan but Barack wasn't telling anyone what his plan was. I went to his website and read his plans on many topics of interest to me. After much research, I decided he was my candidate.

I have discovered while speaking to others, they weren't listening to what he has said. They were closing their ears because they had already selected a candidate. Once they really listened to him, they decided to switch their support.

Part of me would have liked to have seen a Gore/Kerry ticket because I believe they both received the rawest of deals. However, another part of me knows this Barack guy, the guy I knew little about until a few months ago... totally rocks.

It is difficult to switch but at least we have a great person to switch to.

As for the harsh words here at DU. I haven't blamed the Hillary supporters for them and I really hope they also understand we were invaded by GOPers who were simply trying to agitate us all into implosion. They come close, but as David explained, we have all had a great amount of respect for one another prior to this primary, and will again. If I have said any harsh words myself, please accept my apology.

I am looking forward to the day when we can all unite again and beat McCain and the rest of the true evil doers!

[XemaSab]

58. K&R

:patriot:

[anonymeme]

59. Politely Put, But a Little Like an Spiked Iron Fist in a Velvet Glove, And I Respectfully Disagree.

A little like Borg with the resistance is futile type of psychological pressure for everyone to get on the bandwagon or else...

I believe when someone's entire life is under a microscope and has been for decades an that person gets his or her guts torn out for the agenda and amusement of the Right-Wing and then the Left joins in that not only is that person going to make mistakes but there is something terribly wrong with the whole thing.

I believe that believe the full scope of Obama's deceits and deceitfulness has not yet come out...

And it's like this, it I think my country is going to go to Hell one way or the other, the only choice I have is my way of going. I can pick my poison.

I am going to vote for Hillary if I have to write her in because I do not believe a thing Obama says, as he tells every audience what they want to hear, even if they have ideas and needs which are the opposite of all the other audiences he tells whatever they want to hear.

And I don't believe in Obama.

At 61, I have lived under the tyranny of George W. Bush, and I feel like I haven't got the time left to wait for any kind of justice in my life while the next tyranny takes over. And yes, if it's Obama it will be the tyranny of the entitled. His supporters in here and many of those I've met in real life have made that a concrete reality for me.

I'm voting for Hillary, regardless, if that means I have to temporarily suspend my visits to DU after I'm handed the next fait accompli by Democratic choice of candidate until after the election so be it.

[Pringles]

72. *Applause*

[anonymeme]

73. Pringles...

~:blush:~:thumbsup:

[scrucon]

156. Oh, thank God!

There are at least 3 people now who are not going to vote for Obama. He's way too racist for my non-white blood. And I'm not ready for the tyranny of the entitled. He really is so phony, its going to be difficult for me to sit it out. I know I'm going to be tempted to vote McCain. I won't, but I would just like to see Obama and his wife retired from politics. Maybe he can become a pastor.

[AGirl]

60. Not a Hillary supporter, but no thanks anyways.

You have been one of the meanest person I've seen on DU.

[bjobotts]

61. No matter who wins the nomination, no repub will win the WH this election

UNLESS THE VOTE COUNT IS MANIPULATED. 3 to 1 voting democratic. No one but those 20% Bush supporters will vote McCain. Who wants 4 more years of this shit except those right wingers who have been wrong on everything. The GOP is just trying to make it less embarrassing and the press gets more money by making it a race but no republican will win the WH this election...period.

[WinkyDink]

103. I've heard this before. Have you even HEARD the name "Bush" uttered lately?

This election will not be about him or life under him.

Everybody is afraid of discussing the past or even the here and now, to discuss what IS WRONG; gotta always be about "the future".
Mustn't get ANGRY.

McCain has the "security" vote wrapped up.

[tedrick8]

62. It has to be fair.

I am an Obama Supporter and I have to say that I'm happier to have read a news report about both of them saying they would support the Democratic Nominee.

I'm not prepared to say that yet, it depends on how it plays out. If Hillary actually wins, win some states, win the delegate count, win the popular vote, then go with God, I'm all for her. And I will happily vote for her.

If I feel that she won only by strong-arming Super-Delegates. And she has commandeered the nomination by using connections or having her contributers threaten the DCCC, then maybe not. I don't want party bigwigs overruling the will of the majority. It has to be fair.

[grantcart]

65. Beautifully written and recd

[ClayZ]

67. This is one of the kindest, most heartfelt posts

that I have ever seen on DU!

Thank you!

K and R

[kerry-is-my-prez]

69. Thanks at least for not calling us the usual expletives.....

n/t

[Shae]

70. Thank you

for reminding us in such very kind words that we're all on the same side.
It's time we started remembering who the real enemy is.

[littlebit]

75. I can respect what you are saying

and thank you for it. The thing is I am not real fond of Obama. If he is the democratic nominee I will hold my nose and vote for him. But it's not over yet. I am sticking with Clinton.

[David Zephyr]

81. Thanks.

I admire you for sticking with Hillary, but here's hoping that you will feel welcome should come to support Obama at a later date. We will need you to defeat McCain to prevent 4 more years on this insanity. We are all Democrats first.

[BearSquirrel2]

124. We shouldn't blame Hillary supporters ...

Obviously, their enthusiasm and conviction is inspiring. But she is supposed to be the adult in the room and her people have told her the math. It's up to her to bow out gracefully as opposed to being escorted out in a drunken tirade. She can sing pretty or sing cockney, but she will sing.

Our ability to move on and deal with McCain will depend on the mess she leaves before she leaves. If she sticks around for the convention, it will be quite a mess.

[Radio_Lady]

84. You're right, littlebit. It isn't over until... it's over, hopefully sooner rather than later.

And please do not use that other phrase about the *** lady singing because I will personally come over and squash your head!

:sarcasm:

[kdpeters]

76. I'm on board.

I know I'm guilty of taking disruptor troll bait from posters who were later tombstoned and therefore contributing to the environment. Time to stop it. Great post, David. Great way to be that difference.

[SwampG8r]

77. ow dad burn it sheriff ya got me

oh man you made me feel ashamed of myself
to all the hillary supporters i have inadvertantly (or purposefully) offended

please accept my humble apology

as you i am in full support of my candidate and some things said may have been said with a touch of the mean spirit

i look forward to your zeal for our nominee when he is officially named


go obama

[AntiFascist]

78. Great post...

there was a time when I even defended the Clintons against attacks from right-wing relatives, when President Clinton was facing impeachment. Your post brought back that frame of mind and I feel that I understand why so many are supporting Hillary, even though I abandoned the Clintons a while ago. The infighting here and across the country has really become too much, particularly when so many from either side are threatening to vote for McCain if their candidate doesn't win. It is time for Democrats to unite, but I for one will be really angry if the wealthy superdelegates steal this.

[kentj44]

79. don't underestimate

nurse ratchett.

[Radio_Lady]

83. Kentj44, are you referring to Hillary? If so, I could suggest a bucket where you

could go soak your head right up to your Naval navEl, sir!

With (Democratic) friends like you, who needs enemies?

Good night and good luck.

Radio Lady in Oregon

[kentj44]

93. thank you

looks like i have touched a nerve.what about the things said and methods of attack by the clintons. do you think they are democrats and if so with friends like them who needs enemies.? good night and good luck democratic libertarian in miss.

[WilmywoodNCparalegal]

116. Radio Lady, I love your class

Always polite and always on point. :clap:

(I am being honest; not facetious.)

[Radio_Lady]

82. Thank you, David, but I still can't understand why Obama isn't supporting SOME kind of resolution

of the Michigan and Florida problems. More than anything, this United States needs to have every vote counted and it looks as if this isn't going to happen. Would you rather turn this sElection over to the Supreme Court AGAIN?

My full thoughts include the fact that Obama didn't win in either place and so he doesn't want to create another couple of victories for Clinton if the races were re-run.

At age 60, Ms. Clinton isn't even a mother-in-law nor a grandmother. That's sad. She has baggage -- not of her own making -- that she just can't seem to shake off.

Furthermore, with this bruising lead-up to the Democratic Convention, I doubt that she could ever bring herself to try this run again. Perhaps she will be able to revive her Senate seat for the remainder of her term and even run in NY once again. Look at how much she has aged since 1992 (it's very apparent, even with the nips and tucks). I doubt that she would try again in eight years (assuming the person who wins will want to stay in it that long). Many of you folks are just fooling yourselves.

The person who certainly COULD be around in politics, learning more about the problems of the world, and brushing up on those details -- is Barack Obama. He is a brilliant orator, but there is a great group of Hillary supporters who are really saying what I feel: He isn't ready for this. Furthermore, we don't have to re-run the whole racist dialogue that the Republicans are just salivating to spray on us.

Anyway, it's already Friday and I salute you for your attempted olive branch. Maybe I'll feel differently in a few weeks. FYI, I have never been an "early adopter" --

My motto is:

"Be not the first by whom the new is tried, nor yet the last to set the old aside."

Cordially,

Radio Lady in Oregon

[Silver Gaia]

87. K&R Well said. Thank you, David. n/t

[Perry Logan]

88. The Obama supporters need to apologize for their smears first--and then shut up forever.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x5120659

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4779500&mesg_id=4779500

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4849238&mesg_id=4849238

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4922044&mesg_id=4922044

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4942967&mesg_id=4942967

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4964704&mesg_id=4964704

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4965088

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4965227

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4982708&mesg_id=4982708

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x5036756

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=5065868&mesg_id=5065868

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=5156352&mesg_id=5156412

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=5165104&mesg_id=5165104

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=5180133&mesg_id=5181094

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=5195072&mesg_id=5195072

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=5204441&mesg_id=5204441

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=5214352&mesg_id=5214352

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=5226313&mesg_id=5226313

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=5235825&mesg_id=5235825

[DFW]

89. Whatever our nominee's name is, be it Clinton, Obama or Gore

They will have my support and my passion.

Somebody will no doubt be there to provide some intelligence as well........

Very inspired post, by the way!

[ColesCountyDem]

90. I'd gladly support Sen. Clinton, if she gained the nomination, but...

... as hard as it is for her most ardent supporters to accept, the math is simply against her getting the nod in Denver, any way you slice it. That's not Sen. Obama's 'fault', but the will of the people, so it's pointless and slef-defeating to hold it against him.

Sen. Clinton has fought a good, solid campaign, but only one person can win the nomination, and it clearly can't be her.

[Igetnocards]

94. How about some real choices

One word - Campaign Finance Reform (Real)

Everyone running is owned by someone. The real people don't get a voice.

[ColesCountyDem]

104. I beg your pardon?

:wtf: are you talking about? Such sweeping generalizations are nonsensical. Please be specific about who's been bought and by whom.

[BearSquirrel2]

126. You're owned by your contributors ...

You're owned by your contributors. And if you look at Obama's contributions, it's clear that WE own him lock stock and barrel. THIS, is why he's my favorite candidate. When he needs more campaign money he will come back to US to give in $30 amounts instead of going to lobbyists to give $2000 dollar amounts.

[bigtree]

95. I've said before that he'll make us proud, if elected.

I still believe that.

[RobertDevereaux]

96. A magnificent post. Thank you! n/t

[whathappened]

97. the facts

this is what we are ending up with , but to say both canadates are good is a joke , when the msn chose our canadates for us , we left behind better one's for sure ,

[RobertDevereaux]

98. A magnificent post. Thank you! n/t

[aikoaiko]

100. that's some good patronizing rhetoric right there.

:puke:

[WinkyDink]

101. Fine. she's lost. But the "Hillbots" threads, the "Monica" mentions, etc., are NOT the comments of

Democrats I can care about.

[acmavm]

107. And here is the first day of the days I knew were coming. The pandering

and weasling for support from some of the nastiest, most insulting, clique-ish crew on the planet. I told someone the other day who was upset about Obamites and their nasty foul posts not to worry, that soon your lips would be firmly planted on their asses because you HAVE TO HAVE their votes. That it has come so soon is hilarious.

I hate both of them. I find it amazing that this country has sunk to such a low that we have three of the most dishonest, pandering liars on the US running for the nomination of BOTH parties. bush** running for the republicans wasn't that big a stretch. We'd already seen Ronnie Raygun win two elections. But now the dems have to prove they can out-stink the stinkers.

[tomp]

108. kucinich '08! nt

[Gman]

109. What a waste of bandwidth

sorry... but it is.

[IsItJustMe]

110. Damn guy, you brought a tear to my eye. One of the most sincere posts I have ever read here.

[OzarkDem]

111. Candidates are different

One says they'll do things, the other actually does them.

Clinton was not my first choice (Gore, then later Edwards, were). But I trust her to do what she says she's going to do. She's proven that many times in the past - a willingness to take on unpopular issues because its the right thing to do. And in spite of the weak (and very dishonest) attempts of Obama to revise history re Bill Clinton's presidency, he was one of the best Dem presidents in recent history.



There's a great deal at stake in this election. I don't think Obama supporters, for all their rabid passion, really understand that, nor do they realize how unlikely the odds are their candidate will win the GE.

Can you tell me, Obama supporters. Is it just the primary you want Obama to win, and do you not care that he will lose the GE? Have you spent much time thinking about this?

[cascadiance]

114. David, well stated... This current battle reminds me of the "Open Look vs. Motif" wars of the 90's

... in the UNIX industry, which I was intimately involved with in the business world then and on the losing side of when I worked at Sun Microsystems. Those who worked in the tech sector know what I'm talking about from those times.

Normally business efforts try to be dispassionate about technologies and pick the best product and move on. Often times your own product gets ditched quickly and unceremoniously and you just "move on". In this instance though, the whole UNIX industry wasted many years and resources on this battle while Bill Gates and Microsoft did an end run around all of them and Windows and subsequently Windows NT took over when Microsoft wasn't a focal point of their competitive energies. McCain is focused on being the "Windows" of that time and may have the same success if we're not careful.

We put in tough battles in these UNIX system GUI wars, and honestly believed that our efforts made a better product that deserved to "win" over the other guy, even though the real culprit was waiting out in the wings ready to smash us both down. We made a truce, but it was really too late to have a viable UNIX desktop compete against a windows desktop. Arguably if Apple had also joined in with us, they might have had a better unified front against Microsoft too, especially since later they became a UNIX company themselves (and the guy who manages Mac OS I used to personally work with during my days at Sun).

Sun stepped back, learned from their mistakes and came back with introducing their Java technology later which has been a lot more successful, but arguably hasn't given them a strong marketplace position had the Open Look vs. Motif wars not been fought earlier. Arguably Sony has also done that now with Blue-Ray in the current HD battle, which they lost in the past with the Betamax vs. VHS wars.

We are seeing similar battles now on the political scene now at a likewise very pivotal time, where we have to at some point step back from our emotional involvement and figure out where our real priorities are to find some joint effort to fix things. As an Edwards supporter (and potentiall a Gore supporter too), I've had to make my "compromises" to support one of these two candidates as well. Even though I hate the emotional back and forth going on and feeling drawn into it at times, I feel ultimately that Obama is where I can find some degree of hope in moving things in the right direction.

Hillary Clinton and her camp need to step back from this and ask themselves the question that aside from her being in power (which appears to be a battle that's lost), what battle do they feel they are the champions of that would also be worth winning that currently Obama isn't heavily working on. If they can find that unifying issue, that is where they should focus on "winning" this time, and later on that can be translated into building a future winning campaign of power based on winning that battle. In Edwards I see that battle, and is why I would have supported him as a minority candidate, even if I knew he wasn't going to win. It wasn't just about him winning, it was about the issue positions he supported that I was supporting. That's one of the reasons why I've not found much sentiment to support Clinton. Much as she's a very able senator and in most cases a lot better choice than a Republican would be to head up our country, I still haven't seen that big issue she's championing that makes her campaigning this far into the campaign "worthwhile" for me. If you guys can find an issue I think that is the key now. That is what will allow her to be successful down the road even if she doesn't win the nomination this time around. I think that Obama would also be willing to work with her to have this "win" as part of forming a joint campaign to fight McCain with in the fall too. I don't think ultimately it serves his or his supporters interest to always be "anti-Hillary" either, especially if she provides a good reason for a joint campaign to succeed that helps everyone else.

I see Ralph Nader in a similar light with his campaign too. Even though I'm on his mailing list, I think if he just makes his campaign about HIM running, he's going to be building himself as a bigger enemy of the very people who should support him over time by doing so, despite his magnificent track record on fighting for other issues that we all owe him a lot for today that resulted in laws that protect all of us in our jobs and our environment. If I were to sit down with him, I'd tell him to focus on one or two issues like Instant Runoff Voting or Public campaign financing, and then negotiate with the Democrats so that if they were to come out and make "Instant Runoff Voting" a part of their platform, that he would see that as a major victory for progressive Americans wanting more choices in elections in the future (including himself in the future), and if he felt that the Democratic Party was on the hook for making it law if they are in power, that he'd get out of his campaign and endorse the Democratic nominee. I think that that would be a "win win" situation that ultimately down the road he'd win from personally, and all Americans would benefit from too. The Democratic Party, though initially not wanting to cede that kind of power to third parties through this sort of legislation, might ultimately see this as a win for them, as a check against flawed Democratic candidates in certain areas to allow for other progressive "solutions" to be more competitive there and create incentives for a better progressive solution everywhere whether it be a Democrat or another third party.

The Clintons need to find such an issue just like I think Nader needs to find a way to "win" with such an issue for himself and all of us. That will let us end this insanity and focus on the real battle ahead and help give us a decent congressional majority, a Democratic President, and hopefully a party committed to progressive grass roots stances on issues.

[MethuenProgressive]

115. What a cartload of crap.

Every DU Clinton supporter I know has said repeatedly they'll back our nominee whoever it ends up being. Whoever it ends up being. I'm not ready to surrender the Whitehouse to McCain. If our party makes the decision to run Obama I'll vote for him. Until then, I'll support the candidate who has the best chance of beating McCain - and that's Hillary Clinton.

[IowaGirl]

117. I really do appreciate people stating their opinion in a polite, tactful...

manner without a lot of four letter words. Honest discussion about politics is immensely interesting and downright fun. I appreciate hearing your opinion but I am afraid I have to disagree. When Obama came on the scene, I felt I didn't know enough about him to blindly support him on the basis of his own salesmanship (books, speeches, etc). My experience is that anyone who seems too good to be true, usually is. So I have been doing my own research on Obama and I do still feel he is going to be unelectable in the GE. The Republicans are going to bring out ugly stuff about him that is going to make any dirt on Hill and Bill look like a walk through the park. I know the repubs will embellish and twist much of their stuff but from what I can see to be true, I just feel very uncomfortable with Obama in the GE. I think Hillary has a good chance to win the general and I feel that Barack cannot. I think this election is too important for us to take a chance on a newcomer, especially one with too much questionable stuff floating around out there. I have taken my chances on candidates who were very appealing but really stood a snowball's chance in h___ of winning if I'd only been looking at things with less emotion. Now I'm thinking with my brain and not infatuation. I am praying that Hillary will not succumb to the pressure to drop out because I truly feel she is our best shot. :patriot:

[madmom]

122. I was an Edwards supporter from the star, then a Clinton supporter, now I

really don't "like" either of them. BUT I will vote for the nominee!

[Deep13]

123. You all have made it very clear that you don't need us or have any regard for our concerns.

[JKaiser]

125. I think the Hillary fans will come over to that side when they are ready.. It's hard

I am a democrat and I will vote democratic. I love both candidates, However I still and will always believe Hillary Clinton is the better candidate. I will be loyal to her until the end.. No switching over just yet, BUT GO DEMS! WE NEED TO BE united... and end the fighting over the dem nominee..

[slinkerwink]

148. we both have to keep our focus on McCain

[HughBeaumont]

127. Finally a voice of reason.

PLEASE let's end this wasteful exercise and start concentrating on defeating Cotton Hill McClown. I'm so bored of waiting on the sidelines. I want to work for my candidate. OUR candidate. And that would be Barack Obama.

[wryter2000]

129. Well said

I'd only like to add my experiences as a woman of Hillary's age. When I was a child, married women couldn't get credit in their own name. Yale and Harvard were male-only universities. Women who did manage to get into and through medical school and were given residencies (despite the fact that the men in charge of the programs assumed they'd give up medicine when they got married) ended up being called "lady" doctors when they finally opened their practices. There weren't a whole lot of "lady" lawyers. We're still stuck with that double standard in terms like LPGA. (Will there ever be a Gentlemen's Professional Golf Association? At lease the NCAA has come to its senses.)

All politicians were white males (with one or two female exceptions), as were all college professors, policemen, firemen, bankers, and other people in authority. I remember Art Linkletter reflecting that, despite the fact that cooking and sewing were things women did, all the really great chefs and designers were male. (Then, he'd do a segment with Edith Head. You have to be really old to understand that one.)

Hillary faced all that crap and still excelled. Everyone assumed this was her time -- and, indeed, a woman's time. The disappointment must be bitter.

As a woman, though, I'm willing to go with the better candidate.

[NedSchneebly]

130. Not so fast, my good man!

Here in Indiana, everyone is excited that our May primary actually means something this time! Hillary is coming to my old high school today!(Ben Davis HS, Indianapolis)

:patriot:

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

131. recommendation # 100!

great OP that well deserves the front page.

[Pappy]

133. Clinton needs to stop doing this to the party, and politely step aside

At most she might be his running mate for Vice President, but honestly she is unelectable and we will loose if she gets the nomination, plain and simple. She has such a long history of deceit and corporate war mongering, I can't possibly see how she will win.

[shagsak]

135. I am fairly new to DU

but in the short time I've been here I've seen a part of the Democratic party that I didn't know existed. A very passionate side who speak loudly and want... scratch that... need to be heard. Edwards was my first choice but when he dropped out early I was heartbroken and questioned whether even if wrote in (which many of you were on board with) he wouldn't give up later. But I think that whoever wants my vote should prove it, and fight for it. Between Obama and Clinton, the only major difference between the two (in my opinion) are visual. So it really was a tough call for who to rally behind. What the two of them share though is an unyielding and relentless pursuit for the nomination, which I like.

But the way the different campaigners/supporters bicker between each other is bad for our party. The name calling, the ridiculing, the stereotyping. Seriously, hill-bots?? O-bots?? Why is this happening within the party? Aren't we supposed to be after a common goal? Doesn't everyone on here share the same ideology that we cannot afford another 4 years of the bush admin? You would think given what has been typed here that there was a real partisan split between the two democratic nominees. I of course have my opinions on both candidates as to why they should or should not get your vote. But that is off subject to this rant. Who should NOT get your vote is McCain, for any reason whatsoever unless you fully support his politics (if that's the case, then what are you doing here?).

The discussions on this board are intense and a great read. Most people here are for sure educated and have a drive that is refreshing. And I definitely advocate debate. But to use repug methods of degrading another persons candidate and flat out insulting people that disagree with you is and has always been weak. It reminds me of grade school when a kid would have no other retort except to say "shut up, you're stupid". I have said this before and will reiterate, come November, I will vote for the democratic candidate. That being said, GOBAMA!

[jonestonesusa]

136. I appreciate the effort at quality conversation but I'm still feisty

for a few reasons. I am an Obama supporter, a Democratic leaning independent. I've been volunteering for elections every season, starting in the 80s supporting Alan Cranston in the Iowa caucuses. I'm a proud and hardworking African American man with a concern for what's happening in my community in addition to my broad concern for the state of our nation and the globe.

And yet this campaign shows me that we haven't learned lessons from history about how easy it is to divide and conquer people based on racial differences. The tempest in a teapot over Rev. Wright reminds me that even in the 60s, Martin Luther King couldn't even preach a peaceful gospel without getting shot down, with America as a whole giving him a holiday after he is dead. So instead of talking about white or black complicity with American racism, or about how we can unify the country, we talk about how horrible it is that Wright, Michelle Obama, etc. are not sufficiently "patriotic." And then we dismiss Obama for empty talk when he tries to conciliate between the sides. What has Hillary Clinton done to conciliate in this dispute among core constituencies in the Democratic party? Ever since the colonial era when the Virgina colonies made the decision to allow only African Americans to be involuntary servants, white and black working classes have never been able to unify around their economic interests, and the wealthy profit from those divisions. We still haven't found a way out of the way that the powerful play one of us against another. Will we ever?

Even on this conciliating thread there are accusations against Obama of playing the race card, and no "vitriol" directed at those who support Clinton on this same thread. I want us all to be fair to both sides. I haven't been posting on DU for that long, but not at any time have I directed sexist remarks against HRC or any of her supporters, and I challenge others to do the same. I'm tired of people implying that only Obama supporters do that - look at this thread and you'll see no confirmation of that point of view. But I also want to be respected for the serious differences that I have with HRC on key issues and management style. I also think that Obama has run a positive campaign overall - not to say that he has never said things that are wrong, but in at least one post on this thread Rev. Wright is casually called a racist, and that's where we haven't learned as a country to recognize that many African Americans are deeply angry about the state of race relations in this country. Too many Democrats want to sweep that sentiment under the rug and still take black votes without directing thoughtful attention towards achievement gaps, incarceration, loss of tax bases in our cities; the day is coming when we can't have it both ways, and our inattention to these issues will bring us all down.

A question for Edwards supporters: why does the question rarely come up of whether his experience is enough to be president? He's a one term senator with less overall political experience than BO. Is it that Senate experience is universally considered more significant than statehouse experience? Or are we judging Edwards and Obama by a different yardstick?

About the GE and Obama - neither Clinton nor BO is a guaranteed winner in the GE. Whether the candidate is female or African American, a certain number of people won't vote for them based on their identity. Isn't Obama supposed to be so lucky because he is black, as Ferraro said? I choose to vote my conscience. John Kerry was a white man, an honorable veteran and a senator with no significant skeletons in his closet, and he still lost, so how can we predict what will happen? I'm ready to challenge conventional wisdom and help build a new Democratic coalition. I am prepared to volunteer my time for BO and do my best to make sure that he wins Wisconsin, just as I did when John Kerry was the candidate in 2004, and he won the state by 10,000 votes. I think Obama would win Wisconsin and since I am personally excited about the campaign I will put extra time in. I'll try to do so for HRC if she wins, but I am seriously frustrated by how much the Democratic Party and even DU posters dismiss the sentiments of African American voters while counting on their votes. I fully understand that it's important to elect progressive candidates, but there are a lot of white Democrats that have lost presidential races too, and no one is a guarantee. I want for all DUers to give Obama the credit that he deserves for running a strong campaign whether you personally support him or not; quit dismissing his success out of personal dislike, just as many say we all should do for HRC.

[Phillycat]

138. If and when she drops out/is defeated, I will stop supporting her.

Until then, she's in it to win, and so am I.

I will support whomever the D nominee is. But I surely do hope it's her. Big nose-holding moment if I have to vote for Obama. :puke:

[Donkeykick]

141. I agree.

Especially with the nose holding thing. Before Barrack had this thing come out on him--concerning his pastor--I was upbeat either way; now, if I'm going in to the GE with Obama, I'm going to be nervous for the Democrats.

You just know the GOP is going to run this pastor thing until the Election is over with. :eyes:

[Beacool]

139. Lovely post,

but Obama will never have my support. I don't think that he's prepared to be president at this point in time.

[Kurovski]

140. "Error: You've already recommended that thread."

:kick:

[mzmolly]

143. Fabulous post David. You know, when John Edwards dropped out he said

"I want my party to make history". I'd hate for HRC to stand in the way of history because she refused to accept the fact that she can not win. I know she would not want this to be her legacy.

[helderheid]

144. Absolutely wonderful post - and I too cannot wait for us to all be back on the same side.

:applause:

[PATRICK]

146. It is hard

to imagine being a supporter in the same shoes, say for example if Edwards had come this far this close. I can imagine the anguish and the vitriol from principled and loyal supporters and even more, directly using a wall of crying issues, progressive causes and lost voters to back them up. Some of this animosity has been trivial and personal, and in the long run hopefully, easier to set aside than a lost cause or vision. Given the scale of this contest and the anguishing closeness, Hillary has not transgressed quite as deeply as is trumpeted by foes a bit too insecure with the inescapable math. She has not been allowed to. All have been tempted. None have really fallen no matter how ugly or bitter or questionable the fracas became.

Yes, I can't imagine at this stage, this long struggle, how it really must feel. Yet I don't think anyone has really lost unless we take our marbles and give them to McCain and the Bushes. Since this is a people-determined victory and people-donor victor, the upside is that the exercise of advocacy and people influence leads the leader and will continue to do so. Even Edwards needed that despite his more overt progressive clarity. In that respect no candidate supporter here is defeated because what we believe and stand for we can continue bringing to the front lines of democracy and the foundations of a new administration- and a new party.

As to who is better or worse we know the arguments will never die for some and bitter defeat alone will give them bitter vindication. What we must never let die is what we fight for and what we demand of our party regardless of who is the popular leader. The primaries have almost been a minor fan enterprise by comparison. certainly the MSM would have it so and have it constrained to that and bleed off the disaffected toward the tyranny camp. To our honor or shame this has been America's sole democratic process in choosing a president. Now we face the corporate stooge, undefiled by democratic values, in November. If some strange event changes the most likely faces on our ticket nothing has really changed. The people came out and the people demand. It is our leadership that has to set the example.

[toys4kitty]

147. Fantastic!

:kick:

The voices of reason are so nice on the ears. I am so impressed with your post and with the 99% of the responses. This is very uplifting. Kudos to us all and to the candidates that we support.
We are blessed to be a part of something as historic as this.

Keeping my eye on the ball which is defeating McCain.

[slinkerwink]

149. thank you for a great post!

[Stephanie]

150. Perfectly said.

:applause:

[countryjake]

151. Glad I saw this while it's still on the front page...k&r!

Thank you, David Zephyr!

After what transpired here at DU during the last few months, watching so many moderates viciously go for blood in defense of their chosen candidate, it has become a shaky tightrope trying to advocate for any sort of real change in our nation. Offering constructive criticism of either of the "top two" has become a daredevil feat, to put it mildly, and suggesting that neither of them will effectively quash the right-wing thrust our poor nation is dealing with is like whistling in the wind, to the tune of "Don't Blame Me When It's Over".

I do appreciate your attempt here to redirect focus to the task at hand.

[scrucon]

157. Honestly, zephyr, you don't think Obama is racist?

You sound so kind and reasonable and wise. You could've written something really patronizing, but I didn't get that from you. But I'm also surprised that you make no mention whatsoever of his overt racism.

Anyway, thanks for your post.

[Ken Burch]

167. Obama isn't racist. Obama has to talk about what the African American community

have been put through by this country.

To some, any criticism of white society is "reverse racism".

But the fact is, unless he became a total "Tom" like Harold Ford or Doug Wilder, Obama couldn't satisfy those fussy suburban whites who call him a racist (a term, btw, that NO white person has the right to use towards a person of color, thanks to our country's sordid history on such things.)

Btw, it is ALSO overt racism to have spokespeople for your campaign say "the country isn't ready for a black president" and to imply that your opponent is only in the strong position he is in because he is African American.

[David Zephyr]

171. He's half white and half black. Which side of himself do you think he is racist against?

I appreciate you kind words, but I believe that this is the most color-blind individual to ever seek the presidency. He is by his very being all of us.

[scrucon]

181. The white side.

If he'd been sitting in a 'white' church with some pastor ranting and raving hateful things about blacks for 20 years, the answer to your question would obviously be different. And, for what it's worth, I've read Dreams from my Father. In it, he says that he has created 'composite characters'. I think that that's what he'd done for himself in constructing his Chicago life. He is a composite which is resistant to being white. I wouldn't call that 'color-blind'. He sought to be black, and to him, that meant denouncing his white half. That's very different from both me and Tiger Woods.

He may be you, but he's not me.

[trickyguy]

158. Obama not talking policy? What? Isn't this March 28th?

I've heard two great speeches from Obama thanks to DU.

His great speech on race which I consider "policy" of sorts.

And his absolutely excellent speech on economics which I found very informative
on a topic that I'm not good at.

McCain completely blew it on economics. And I don't think I've heard Hillary
say anything substantive on it.

Every time I hear Barack speak I can understand what he's saying.

Isn't that what we look for in a politician? Especially one running for President.

O8)

[grannylib]

159. This is nicely and sensitively written, and thank you.

I began supporting Obama after Edwards suspended his campaign; I had originally been a Kucinich supporter, but knew the media would write him off the ticket from the get-go. Like you, I have been impressed by a number of Obama's qualities. Like you, I respect those who still support Senator Clinton, and am glad we have this forum in which to present our respective views.
I have been saddened by the divisive nature of some posts and responsive; my hope is that, if "the unity thing" is what appeals to Obama supporters, we can set the standard by striving for unity here. Can we support our candidates by highlighting what we believe to be their achievements and qualifications, rather than by attacking the opponent? Can we practice what we preach?
I think so, I hope so, and I want to be part of not just HOPING for change, but WORKING for change.

[scrucon]

161. It's an election.

We're supposed to compare AND CONTRAST! Just highlighting the achievements and qualifications of your candidate doesn't do that. Geez!

[grannylib]

169. I agree, but I think it can be done in such a way as to disagree with

policies, on issues, etc. without being nasty or insinuating things that are intended to be detrimental to the other party...

[shireen]

162. GORE 2008!!!

Sorry ... just had to let it out. :D

[ExPatLeftist]

163. Excellent. K & R. (n/t)

[1trackmindGOP]

168. I confess

I have become a little mean myself at times, mainly because of being provoked by malicious statements where people called me an idiot Obama kool aid drinker or were slinging out smears such as Obama being muslim and such. I would like to tone it down myself as I realize the prize is winning the Presidency so we can reverse GW's tragic policies that has failed us miserably. I hope we can come together after all this is over...by the way my candidate lost too. I was an Edwards supporter and switched to Obama as my second choice, and have grown to like him more and more over time. Peace!

[0007]

172. bttft and recommend with many kudos for a great post.

[Duppers]

173. bravo

I came to Obama late too. My hubby voted for Hillary, I for Edwards out of principle. We both now support Obama wholeheartedly.
It's time to stop punching each other and look at the freight train coming at us.

[pjt7]

176. This post was spot on

~

[Duppers]

178. thanks, newbie

and welcome.
:)

[Lil Missy]

174. Nice post. As a Hillary supporter ......

I am resigned to the fact that this is hurting the Democratic Party. And I will, of course, gladly support and vote for Obama. It's not that I ever really disliked him in the first place, ya know?

[knixphan]

177. Love Love Love

That's all you'll get from this Obama supporter.

I respect any and all supporters of any and all democratic candidates.

When Dennis dropped out I was sad. Dennis is my hero.

I went to the love boat and reminded myself that we're all on the same side.

DEMOCRATS - VS - PURE EVIL '08!

Reconciliation bar is open.

Every O-boater grab a Hillster and kiss 'em.

[countryjake]

185. kick for a bit of weekend sanity!