Obama supporter here. Legitimate and sincere question

[TeamsterDem]

I support Obama. I just want to make that clear from the get-go. I have a question: Can any Obama supporter or minimally-partisan HRC supporter point me to either proof of Obama trying to deny MI and FL their votes, or proof of him trying to work out a solution for those states? I'm not talking about statements made by HRC because those could be viewed/dismissed as political attacks. I'm talking about statements that Obama has made to either effect, or (preferably) news articles which quote him/his people as supporting/opposing those folks' ability to vote.

I ask because in all seriousness it would reduce my support of him to some degree knowing that he were trying to shut those folks out; the degree would depend on his level of opposition. I know, I know, the party agreed to rules and in principle I agree that they should pay for their violation of those rules. But in practice I buy HRC's argument that we run the risk of losing those states (especially MI) if our nominee is viewed as having tried to silence them; perception is reality in politics. And just because I support Obama and oppose HRC's candidacy doesn't mean I think she's always wrong; in this case I think she's made a valid point which is why I'm seeking an answer.

Do any other Obama supporters have similar fears/feelings? Remember I'm not talking about chalkboard theory here. I'm talking about how things might be perceived which, if perceived negatively, could cost us one or both of these crucial states. I've heard so much back and forth on the subject that it's hard to discern fact from fiction at this point and I'm hoping someone here can offer a helping hand.

[zulchzulu]

1. Here's the skinny

Both Michigan and Florida Democratic officials were warned multiple times that if they moved their primary dates from their alloted scheduled dates that they would not be able to seat their delegates and the elections would be "beauty contests".

Both states had their Democratic officials decide to break the rules and move their primary dates. Both states were then told that the rules ARE rules and they themselves ruined the chances and disenfranchised the voters of their states.

All the major Democratic candidates agreed to and signed on to the "Four State Pledge" in September 2007. This meant that the first four states would be Iowa, New Hampshire, Nevada and South Carolina. No one was to be on the ballot in Michigan and no campaigning was to be done in Florida.

What the Obama campaign has consistently said was that the states needed to follow the rules and knowingly BROKE them. Oddly, even after signing the Four State Pledge, Hillary Clinton has decided that she wants to change the rules in the middle of the game.

The people who are responsible for Michigan and Florida not having certifiable elections and delegates accounted for is due to the Democratic Party state officials who BROKE the rules and knew they would be penalized.

I could do a timeline with links, quotes and such to fully illustrate this issue in a separate OP. Maybe I will...

[sandnsea]

4. I think it's a big mess

The people in Michigan were told their vote wasn't going to count. Based on that info, some chose to vote in the Republican primary. They will be disenfranchised if there is a new vote. They obviously aren't Hillary's supporters because they'd have voted for her if they were.

On edit:

I was just posting, didn't mean for it to go to you Zulch.

[TeamsterDem]

6. Yeah I'm aware of that stuff

But again my concern is not really for the hard-line "they shouldn't have done x, y, z," but instead for how it might be perceived by voters in those states. My main concern is giving McCain a single inch which he might use to attack Obama if he ultimately wins the nomination; I don't want Obama having to fend off attacks about his "legitimacy." Remember, voters are such a fickle and not-to-be-bothered bunch that they'll buy into lots of stuff: They bought into the inane attack against Kerry on the parasail, the Swift Boat Liars, and the "voted for it before I voted against it" attack ads, so I really don't want something that has any roots in truth to be used against him, no matter if I personally disagree with its "truthfulness" or not; I'm worried about perception.

[HCE SuiGeneris]

2. This is THE resource. Lots more info from this author in their journal

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1942

[TeamsterDem]

7. Great resource indeed

Thanks for the help!

[HCE SuiGeneris]

18. Hope you find the information you need.

:hi:

[TeamsterDem]

21. Sometimes I worry too much about stuff

I just wanted to know as much as I could about the thing to be prepared to fend of McCain supporters' BS when/if it comes (on that front).

[fadedrose]

3. Live in MI and support Obama

He has nothing to do with this situation. Said he would go along with anything the DNC said was right.

Our problems began when the elected officials of Michigan, Governor Granholm, Sens. Levin and Stabinow, other DLC people, decided to have an earlier primary. They were warned that it would not be legitimate and broke the rules.

The Michigan ballot originally had all the candidates' names on it. Biden, Edwards, Obama removed their names. Kucinich tried, was too late. Hillary herself said the primary was meaningless but left her name on. Michigan's ballot was approved by the morons in office even though only Hillary was the only major candidate on it, and the other names constituted 1% of the vote.

Michigan gave its citizens one shxxxy ballot. Nobody I wanted was on it - Biden, Edwards, Obama, so I voted "uncommitted." The ballot should never have been approved for usage whether the primary was too early or too late. It was a disgrace.

Last week a court decided the primary was unconstitutional.

Look up anything you can find by Madfloridian and you can learn a lot about MI and Florida. Terrific post by Grant... something or other on the board right now. Subject is something about "The big lie; HRC ...

Somebody fill in details I missed, please.

[TeamsterDem]

8. So do you think ...

Obama needs to do a better job of articulating how these states found themselves in the mess they're in? And further, do you think he should move (more forcefully) against Clinton on the grounds that she agreed to abide by those rules and is now trying to change 'em?

Sincere questions. I ask only because it seems that he's doing well without getting into attacks, so I'd hate to see him fix what ain't broken. But at the same time my original concern still worries me regarding perception issues ...

[fadedrose]

10. Obama isn't being blamed as much as Howard Dean

who heads the DNC.

The DLC wants to get rid of Howard Dean and they blame him for everything. Dean and Obama are not responsible for the mess that these baboons created themselves by breaking rules and expecting to just sashay into the convention with a pile of Hillary delegates.

Obama is wise to stay out of it. His pundits speak for him - look what they did to Richardson, Brutus? My god.

[TeamsterDem]

12. Yeah, good point

I couldn't believe how vitriolic the response to Richardson was. In fact I still can't believe it. Unreal. Good point about Obama being well-advised to stay above that fray; I hadn't thought it about it like that.

[bigbrother05]

16. grantcart, yes it's excellent

[bhikkhu]

20. Link to "The Big Lie" post

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x5290035

[cooolandrew]

5. Yes other than HRC making it up that is. The article where he said this must be loads if true.

Waits patiently. :popcorn:

[Aussie leftie]

9. I think the American people are getting sick of being disenfranchised

They had the election stolen from them in 2001. Some of the voting machines are controversial to say the least. Stop mucking around and give Florida and Michigan residents the chance to have their say

[TeamsterDem]

11. This is precisely what I was referring to

If we're going to hear criticism like this from fellow Democrats, what makes us think that we won't hear it in the fall? I'm just so worried because the American people seem to have patience for 2-6 word answers, and getting into how the primaries were moved up seems a bit beyond their attention span. I don't know, maybe I'm just a nervous nelly.

[fadedrose]

13. Don't believe the criticism

It's fed by the HC supporters.

There are 48 states who played by the rules. What's fair to them?

I don't have any delegate (yet). I don't want MI's delegates going to HC. 40% went to the polls and voted "uncommitted" and we would like to stay that way. More would have gone if candidates names were on the ballot. The public knew the day of the primary that no delegates would be seated. That's the roll of the dice.

[NoBushSpokenHere]

19. I think your concerns are well founded Obama NEEDS to

tell FLA and MI that he WOULD OF LIKED to have had either a NEW PRIMARY or the rules changed PRIOR to the election and that IT WASN'T HIS DECISION, he didn't set the rules, he just abided by them.

[TeamsterDem]

22. That's a great point

I totally agree with that. IMO as long as he makes a strong effort to remind them of how they got where they're at then I think he puts the issue to bed ... at least as much as he can possibly do so, that is.

[FlyingSquirrel]

14. Ah yes, see "The BIG BIG lie"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=5290035&mesg_id=5290035

[fadedrose]

15. Thanks.. nt

[TeamsterDem]

17. Appreciate the responses

Especially glad everyone kept it civil. Thanks for all the input.

[bhikkhu]

23. In spite of words to the contrary...

it seems that HRC's concerns re MI have been solely to engineer an election to her advantage. She refused to support a caucus, as should be expected. But the rules written for the proposed election allowed only voters who had not voted in the Repug primary. For whatever reason it seems many of Obama's supporters, whose candidate was not on the ballot, went ahead and voted for Republican. I don't know all the backstory to that, but it seems to be the case. Naturally, none of Hillary's supporter did so.

In a rematch with a significant number of Obama's camp barred from voting. Hillary would certainly win. This is the arrangement that Obama opposes, as well he should. As this arrangement is no longer being pursued HRC seems to have lost interest.

[John Q. Citizen]

24. Do a google search DU (upper right hand corner) The DNC is the governing board for party election

rules.

I already know that after and apart from the race between Obama and Hillary, that they will seat as many delegates from those states as they can. After Obama is recognized as the nominee.

But the DNC has been crystal clear and concise about the dates and about the penalties for breaking the rules. So the official policy is that the non-elections (no campaigning, most candidates off ballot in MI) FL and MI have no bearing whatsoever on the Obama/Clinton race.

Both states' Democratic parties first broke the rules and then attempted to wait until the last moment and then force something through quick. It didn't work out for a lot of reasons (google is your friend)

However, once Hillary exits stage right, there will be all kinds of movement to seat delegates from Fl and MI, because seating delegates at that point won't violate party rules. You know it's not chalk board theory that no campaigning in FL and MI and no ballot line for Obama in MI (or Edwards) is equivalent to no fair elections. Without fair and free elections, the votes are meaningless. And the voters were told repeatedly by the DNC that the votes were unsanctioned for the Democratic Party primary and were in fact meaningless.

So to answer your question, I'm sure Obama wanted to make sure that party rules were followed. That just makes sense, especially since following party rules benefits his candidacy. And since Obama's pretty well sown up the nomination, I'm sure after Hillary has formally withdrawn, The DNC, Obama, and MI and FL will come to a quick and satisfactory arraignment regarding delegates.

MI and FL: "I fought the law and the law won. But we got to go to the dance anyway-if we promise not to throw any bombs"

Hillary staying in is keeping the FL and MI delegates out so far. That's a no-brainer.