Will gay support hurt Dean?

[Cannikin]

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=294879

After reading the story about contributions from homosexuals being credited for his strong start, I then read a post in the above thread that made me consider that gay support may hurt him later. What are your opinions?

[HFishbine]

1. "Gay contributions?"

I didn't know money had a sexual orientation. Learn somethin' new everyday here at DU.

(on edit: Aww, it's no fun if you keep changing your post.)

[Hep]

2. It won't hurt him

At all. Even people who support an amendment to ban gay marriage preface their comments with, I don't care what they do in the privacy of their home". Well, the privacy of the voting booth is just as sacred.

[Toucano]

3. No it will not. EOM

[wtmusic]

4. Yes, people will assume that Dean is gay

and that he might show up to a state dinner wearing nothing but frilly lace undies </sarcasm>

Paleeeze.

[lurk_no_more]

12. Does dean

own frilly lace undies? what color? if their black and he still wears a tie, I don't see a problem!


” JAFO”

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mermaid]

33. You People Think You're Funny But You Aren't!!

Damnit!!
I am a transsexual, male to female...and I am sick and tired of people making jokes like this!!
It's about time WE got treated with the same dignity and respect as other human beings!!
You'd think that, on DU, of all places...one would not see jokes like this! You'd expect sick "humor" like this on Free Republic...NOT on DU!!!
I'm pressing the Alert Button...I have HAD IT with this kind of joking...
IT IS NOT FUNNY!!!
I am deeply offended!

[Bucky]

34. Thank you mermaid. You're right.

The habit of sexually demeaning joking, even if it's at the expense of Bill Frist, is as offensive as it is hard to break. If not in this thread, I know I've certainly said some things in other threads in ways that are offensive and unaccepting. For that I apologize to anyone who might have read them. I like a good joke every now and then, but you don't have to be mean and intolerant to be risqué. I'll try to do better in the future. Thank you for speaking up. It takes integrity.


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[mermaid]

35. Thank You. Apology Accepted

But damn...Like I say... I just do not expect to be treated as acceptable fodder for jokes on DU. We are supposed to be better than that...more tolerant 'n stuff, no?

I mean...going onto Free Republic, I'd expect to see sick stuff like that...But not here!!

I'm tired of sitting at the back of the bus, just because I am transgender!! When do we finally get the rights, dignity, and respect we deserve as human beings?

I'll tell you when: IT IS WHEN WE STAND UP AND DEMAND THEM!!! No one is going to just up and give us these things...we are gonna have to fight for them, and speak up for them...and that is exactly what I am doing here.

[lurk_no_more]

39. Since when is being transsexual the same as being gay?

I have a close friend like yourself a male-female transsexual that would be offended to be considered gay, for him being gay is not an issue since he has no interest in same sex anything, he felt he was a woman and took the steps to change his gender, not his sexual orientation.

To me (and my friend), being a transsexual has nothing to do with being gay or lesbian.

I also have a gay son to where this type of joke may be offensive so I will acknowledge that since we were not the ones offended, you were, for this I apologize.


” JAFO”

[mermaid]

41. It Isn't....

What I took exception to was the idea that gay translated into transgenderism. This is PRECISELY why I took offense to the postings...because it implied that gay=transgender...or that transgender = gay
And, it further illustrated to me that, even here on DU, it seems like it is perfectly okay to use us as fodder for jokes...and I don't appreciate it.

[wtmusic]

40. Don't mean to offend anybody

I also don't see where my post casts any aspersions against transsexuals or anyone else (except for Bill Frist, maybe).

It was meant to lampoon people who harbor those stereotypes, although I admit the line is thin.

The thought of Bill Frist in a camisole is funny to me. I can't help it. Sorry to have offended you.

[mermaid]

42. It is these Springer-Type Images That Do Harm To Us

Therein lies the problem. You think the idea of Bill Frist in a camisole is funny.

Promotion of these type of images, when coupled with the images the general public gets on Springer and his clones...
This is often the only exposure the general public gets to transgender individuals, and we are encouraged to laugh at them.

It makes it very hard for transsxuals like me to gain the equal right, dignity and respect we deserve as human beings.

You never see on a talk-show, someone who is a transseual, like me...who just happens to work as an ofice clerk, has a boring hum-drum, average life...who works 40-plus hours a week, votes, brushes the dog every weekend...in other words...you never see the transsexual portrayed as an average person.
What you always see on mainstream TV is the freaks.

And this puts out the demagogue that we are all "freaks" and thus, promotes the idea that it is okay to laugh at us...use us as joke fodder...and all of THIS...is what prevents those of us like ME from being taken seriously when we want to discuss the serious issues of being transgender...and when we want the same rights privileges, and dignity y'all take for granted!

Unemployment and under-employment are rampant in my community. for every one of me, there are fifty of my sisters not so fortunate to have the job skills, or experience, and wind up having to sell themselves as sex workers just to freaking survive.

We are the victims of brutal hate crimes...not just killed, but often "overkilled" that is to say, completely MUTILATED as if we were nothing but garbage...

Damn, I gotta stop this now, the more I type, the more pissed offf I get that no one seems willing to stand up for MY right to have the same opportunities, safety, the same dignity and respect that y'all take for granted...so I'll end this with this parting shot...

Most people seem to think the biggest ting I gave up, in becoming the woman I knew myself to be...was "male privilege." No, the biggest thing I gave up was my very HUMANITY...because so many people no longer see me as human. I have to struggle and fight every day, just for acceptance of my status as human...and the rights and dignity that go along with being human!

Imagine how YOU would feel if someone's sick humor was used to excuse treating YOU like garbage?

[quinnox]

5. It's possible

I think it is unlikely though. Dean is smart not to talk about his support of the civil unions legislation in Vermont, I have never heard a peep from him on this and I have watched nearly all the debates. Apparently, he knows it would not be a good move politically to put this issue in the forefront.

And if any of his GOP opponents bring it up (in the scenario of a Dean nomination), they run the risk of looking like bigots, which might hurt them more than linking Dean with gays.

[La_Serpiente]

6. no

n/t

[lurk_no_more]

7. Only if

they grab him too agressivly! (attempted Humor)


” JAFO”

[cally]

8. I responded to you in the other thread

I think it may help Repugs turn out their fundie base. For most Americans, I don't think they will vote on this one issue. Dean's supprt from the GLBT will help turn out that base and other liberals.

[rucky]

10. Let the Culture Wars Begin!

n/t

[Cannikin]

14. Thank you for the great replies so far....

One thing I can credit conservatives for....I've got esteem issues, and alot of defensiveness regarding my sexuality. I've been 'out' for over 11 years and this is the first time I've felt a feeling of shame or guilt about it. I know I was born this way, but its hard to convince anyone else.

[TeacherCreature]

9. How exactly would gay contributions hurt a Democratic party candidate?

I am not even sure what they point is here.

[Cannikin]

19. Turn on talk radio and wait....

I'm sure Rush or someone will answer that for you!

[Toucano]

23. Oh, that nonsense.

That will "hurt" every democratic candidate because all of them have a substantial LGBT base.

We may even lose the junkie vote if Rush is against us! LOL!

[NashVegas]

11. It All Depends on How Dean Responds

Regardless of whether the gay groups' will be exploited for their support of Dean by someone on the Dem side now, or the Republican side later (IF he wins the nomination), I expect to see it used heavily, but also underplayed at the same time.

I fully expect to see anti-Dean campaign operatives with videocameras at this year's Gay Pride rallies, looking for people holding up "Dean for America," 'G & L for Dean," etc, and crossing their fingers in hopes they'll be able to spot some major queens holding said signs. I expect we'll see plenty the footage or caps from it in the more extremely Republican partisan outlets, and more "benevolently" used by the majors.

But you won't see it used against him outright by any of his opponents, directly. It will be used indirectly, Southern-style, and in such a way that it's hard to counter with direct speech, because you look paranoid. (Think of Edwards quips about "coming down here in the Sunday church hour.")

If Dean runs away from it, he's cooked. If he handles it the way he did in Vermont and elsewhere on the trail, we could be in for a nice surprise, imagining Rove's frustration.

[John_H]

13. I wonder why Dean has Gay and Lesbian support

Do they not know that he wouldn't even mention the civil union decision by name in his State of the State Address after it was decided? They believe what he says now?

It's rhetoric or record, folks. Rhetoric or record. Which do you believe?

[TeacherCreature]

32. yup, because them gay folks are just to damn stoopid to know

who to vote for. :eyes:
Maybe you can start a new thread and advise them, seeing as how they have been so mislead until now.

[paulk]

15. it won't hurt him

any more than any other Dem. The Republicans will smear any democrat with this - and any person who's going to vote against dean because of his gay support is a vote no Democrat could get.

[HFishbine]

16. About "The Story"

The one you read about "contributions from homosexuals being credited for (Dean's) strong start;" what publication was that in again? Do you have a link to it, or was it written on a cocktail napkin?

[cally]

24. I read it in the SF Chronicle

The original story was in the Washington Post.

[Monte Carlo]

17. I don't know if it'd hurt him any more than any other Democrat...

... cause if you're anything less than a committed anti-homosexual crusader, you're an immoral fag lover in the eyes of Limbaugh, Hannity, etc. Besides, I don't think many homophobes were going to vote Democratic, anyway.

[LuminousX]

18. So what if it does, do we abandon Democratic support for homosexuals?

[Cannikin]

22. HFishbine, the story can be found in the original thread at the top..

I didn't make anything up on a napkin. I look it up for myself, and when I don't know, I ask...thats what this is all about.

John_H, I personally haven't heard ANY of the candidates say anything on the topic. So if you can point the way to the information on how the other guys feel about it, I'd appreciate it.

[HFishbine]

30. Thank you.

Here's the direct link:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2004/01/02/MNG8G426QI1.DTL

This is something I didn't know about Dean. Doesn't change my mind a bit. Let the riech try to make something of it, they'll fall right into the trap.

[zulchzulu]

20. The only people who would find that an issue are Bushies anyway

I doubt any decent Democrat would find that an issue.

[Bucky]

27. Sadly, you are wrong. See my post below.

Lots of people who would otherwise vote for Democrats are troubled by issues like this. It is an extremely effective wedge issue. It will cost us votes in winnable swing states like Pennsylvania, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Ohio, Missouri, Arkansas, and possibly Illinois.

[Bucky]

25. Two different ppl at work said "gay unions" was a voting issue for them

I argued one of them back into the light, but the argument quickly degnerated into a discussion on the merits of gay marriage and stuff God said back when He was young and impressionable. I bear my full share of the blame because I pointed out that quite a few of the Psalms are love poems between David and Saul. AOUTCH! Not a productive thing to say I realize now.

Anyhoo, I think gay marriage is a powerful wedge issue that will cost us most of the swing states. I think Dr. Dean is the most vulnerable on this matter, but any of the candidates would take heat on this issue. This even though George Bush in response to the question of civil unions and gay marriage said in 2000 "I think folks ought to be able to enter into any kind of legal arrangement they like."

Is Bush vulnerable on the issue of being a hypocrite for demogogueing on the gay marriage issue? No. Not unless you think Republicans ever scruple about voting for hypocrites. But forget morality, this is politics. Tactically gay marriage as a wedge issue is too much of a winner for Republicans for them to take the high road. We need the most bullet proof Democrat to run because of clown-ass monkey shit like this.

Which is why I'm going to keep who I'm supporting as a complete secret from you.


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[onehandle]

26. My Gay boss is supporting Clark...

So are two other Gay friends. Of course, I am in the heart of the South, so who the Hell knows.

[Cannikin]

28. I'm in Little Rock, AR....

And what I hear on the radio is down right scary! There are some bible thumping hate filled folks...who dont see the irony of spreading hate in the name of an all loving God.

[Jerseycoa]

29. They will surely try

But all of the candidates are in the same position and know how to handle themselves. I wouldn't worry about it.

If you would like to see Clark's position, here is his Human Rights Campaign Survey:

http://www.glbtforclark.org/files/HRCQ_Questionnaire_Final.doc

And policy statements:

http://clark04.com/issues/glbt/

http://clark04.com/articles/013/

[FreakinDJ]

31. BIG TIME

[Scott Lee]

36. Let's backpeddle on Democratic principles so we don't offend!

You have got to be joking.

Thanks for illustrating one of the problems with the Democratic party right now. Any party that would violate one of the basic tenents of their existence in order not to scare away voters is, in my ever so humble opinion, a bunch of cowardly, empty people.

[Tom Rinaldo]

37. Maybe, maybe not, but that's not the point.

Whoever the Democratic nominee ends up being, the Republicans will do what they can to stir up homophobic voters against him. Most likely the hatchet won't be wielded by Bush personally, after all he's a "compassionate conservative", but surrogates will be all over it.

Gay support is an important element in the Democratic coalition. Our party is identified with civil rights. Gays are energetic and motivated supporters, and that is always a good thing to have on your side. Ultimately it doesn't matter if our party's stand on Gay issues wins or loses more votes, it is a principled position. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't give some strategic consideration as to how we promote our positions, or show a degree of common sense consideration for what can realistically be achieved in a short time frame.

Sometimes it's not just the "final product" that matters, sometimes it also matters how that "product" is sold. Some salespeople are simply better at their job than others. Give them the exact same item to "sell", and they will do so more effectively than someone else. I think that is a valid question to look at, how will our various potential candidates frame the gay issue, and advocate for equality and inclusion?

I think Clark is highly effective at framing the question for the general public to understand, but I will never find any fault in Dean, or back away from him in any way, as a candidate based on this issue.

[meg]

38. Yes

With the homophobes. If he took money from African-Americans, it will hurt him with the racist voters, too. What about Jewish money? Or Islamic money? What if he took money from atheists? I'll bet he did take money from atheists.

[Jerseycoa]

43. Ha

He took money from me and I'm an atheist. :)

[arewethereyet]

44. only if its vocal support

might as well face it, polls clearly prove that it would be devisive. Send money but avoid the public eye.