Leahy, Richardson, et al Are Tearing Apart the Democratic Party

[NashVegas]

You want to talk about the politics of destruction, here?

By going public with their demands for Hillary Clinton to drop out of the race, they are making it impossible for her to drop out in any face-saving manner.

They don't just want Hillary Clinton to drop out, they want her crushed. Think about that for a moment: senior members of the Democratic Party are taking one of the most admired persons in the nation and publicly backing her into a corner. God help any Democrat who should have the mixed blessing of taking the White House, if they have to work with these imbeciles.

You want to know why so many Clinton supporters say they won't vote for Obama, there's your #1 reason, right there. Anyone who's been around office politics long enough understands that there are certain things you just don't do if you want a healthy atmosphere where people can work together.

And no one can imagine these calls to drop out, realistically, if the shoe were on the other foot, if it were BO who was within 10% delegate spread and Leahy and company were going on the air and calling for him to drop out, there would be howls!

In conclusion, to those who keep going on the air and screaming for Hillary to take her 1400 delegates and fold up: fuck you and the horse you rode in on.

[stray cat]

1. Huh?

[papau]

87. I agree with OP - the stamp down women part of the Democratic Party is determined - F--k them

[rch35]

91. Calling for a divisive candidate with no shot at winning clean to step down is sexist?

i hadn't gotten the memo

[Yael]

104. You misunderstood.

MATH is sexist, not people talking about math. Just math itself.

:thumbsup:

[indimuse]

109. there more than JUST # 's determining the nom!

Obama has too many unknowns....AND knowns to be president.



Who Said This?


"I ceased to advertise my mother's race at the age of 12 or 13, when I began to suspect that by doing so I was integrating myself to whites,"

"I found solace in a sense of grievance and animosity against my mother's race,"

"The other race (White) would always remain just that: Menacing, Alien and Apart,"

"It was into my father's image, the Black man, the son of Africa, that I'd packed all the attributes I sought in myself,"

"That hate hadn't gone away, blaming white people,"

"My grand mother was a typical white person." - Barack H. Obama

[rch35]

140. Yes. He did say that....

and then he talks about how he overcame it and how its no longer part of what he believes. God forbid he discuss how difficult finding his racial identity was for him. Because millions of young men and women of every race don't do that every day, especially of mixed ethnicity.

You fucking drone.

[rch35]

141. My bad. Thanks for clearing that up for me, haha. nt

[JoFerret]

163. Obama is the divisive candidate. he has a full deck of

identity and race cards he has been playing.

In the end it will be the detriment of all of us.

[rch35]

169. Care to dabble in some facts? or do you not even try anymore? nt

[SoxFan]

136. Nancy Pelosi belongs to the "stamp down women" crowd?

[roguevalley]

139. stamp down the idiot who happens to be a woman is the idea

here. And, if you can have free speech which seems to be the big deal with hillary supporters, you can't condemn them for speaking their minds.

[shadowknows69]

2. They want to win the general election nothing more

this isn't personal, it's business.

[GodlessBiker]

3. Let's face it, if Obama had lost 12 in a row after S-Tuesday, we wouldn't be talking about this.

He would be gone. She has been given a pass.

[redqueen]

74. Exactly. (nt)

[thewiseguy]

4. Democratic Party = Hillary's campaign?

On a separate note McCain has started running GE ads in New Mexico.

[Yael]

105. She is running for Prez of the United States of Ohio and West Virginia

[question everything]

147. And New York, and California, and Texas, and New Jersey and Massachusetts

and Arkansas..

In short, the big states where many of the Democratic voters are not necessarily blacks who vote for their man.

[Mme. Defarge]

5. IMO

They are trying to help her by keeping her from further damaging herself.

[NashVegas]

8. If That Were True

They wouldn't be doing it publicly.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

19. The private calls for reason have obviously failed.

:shrug:

[NashVegas]

26. IF Anyone Is Actually Trying

They need to accept their failure and let this play out.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

55. She needs to accept her failure and end it.

If she trailed by 50-60 or less delegates, after 40+ races, I wouldn't feel that way.

[MH1]

60. Why?

They are undoubtedly trying.

If they are going public now, it is because private didn't work. The party and the country matter more than one obstinate Senator. Sorry if you can't see that.

[totodeinhere]

64. Even if it means we lose in November?

This is all about wrapping this up now before it's too late to salvage our chances in November. The stakes are too high. A McCain presidency just is not acceptable. Clinton, the candidate in second place, has got to drop out for the good of the party if not for the good of her own political career.

[gateley]

29. I'm thinking they've approached her privately

but she wasn't receptive. Like when Kennedy talked to Bill to ask him to ratchet down their approach.

I don't think they'd blindside her -- she knows how they feel and is choosing to not heed their requests/advice.

[NashVegas]

54. Quite Possible

But people here still don't get how badly the Dems are fucking up by publicly backing her into a corner.

[gateley]

92. An analogy might be

when you tell your child, "Susie, what you're doing isn't going to get the result you want in the long run, and in fact you could be causing some harm in a way you hadn't thought of. Please reconsider." After Susie had been appealed to several times, but continues on what mom and dad sincerely believe is a damaging path, they're going to up the "encouragement".

Those who are endorsing Obama are singing his praises, yes, but they all have referred to their concern about this ongoing campaign causing a party rift. These subtle references don't seem to be received well. They've taken steps that would allow her to bow out while saving face. Like Edwards did. They certainly don't want to publicly stomp on her and call her out. They don't want her to be disgraced.

I really think it's her unwillingness to come to an agreement with the Powers that Be is what is backing her into a corner. She can still exit gracefully. But like Susie, the longer she insists on doing it her way without taking mom and dad's guidance into consideration, the tougher it will become for her to hold her head high and know she did the right thing.

[NashVegas]

121. Your Analogy Needs to Be Taken a Step Further

In this case, Mom & Dad are upping the "encouragement" to harsh extremes - and it's not for them to pre-determine what's a damaging path or not.

Else, stop the farce and cancel the convention. Stop the farce and cancel everything but Iowa and NH.

[gateley]

123. I don't think the "encouragement" is extreme -- yet.

But I'll admit it IS pretty obvious what they're saying. It's apparently what they believe.

And there's more to it than a single candidate - I honestly believe if the roles were reversed (Hillary and Obama) that they would have been successful in their "encouragement" :7 to Obama to step down. It's her resistance that is making them up the pressure.

That being said, I just now finished reading an article you might enjoy - supporting Hillary in her continuing the campaign:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23846166/

And he makes some very valid points as to why she's doing the right thing at this time.

Where I'm of a different mind than you is that I don't think the endorsements and statements by the Dems have left no way for Hillary to withdraw with grace. But it's getting to that point. And again, I don't think it's because they just "like" Obama better, I think they're acting in what they believe are the best interests of the party. :shrug:

[PassingFair]

132. They don't have any choice, she is strong arming and threatening...

people with retribution if they "cross" her.

If people like Leahy are calling her out on
it, you can BET she's tearing HOLES in
Washington.

[Yael]

107. Bingo. This was said just after ST

That the private calls would come, then a smattering of high level endorsements (Dodd, Richardson, now Casey) and then they will start publically calling for her to step down (Richardson, Dodd, Lehey).

Right on schedule...

[madwivoter]

52. Why not?

If she is indeed the fighter she claims to be, she should be able to take it. I'm interested to see her response.

What are they supposed to do, give her a ring and tell her the same thing that so many others have already recommended?

These statements must be made in a public forum or they wouldn't be taken seriously.

[dchill]

76. How do you know...

that they haven't already tried it privately? Do you have inside information? Your post is completely wrong.

[Mooney]

108. The "private" route has been rejected by HRC's camp.

Up to now, the most public statement that one could interpret as possibly anti-HRC is when Harry Reid said that "things are being done," which is a pretty neutral statement. There have also been very generic calls "bring the party together" and "people should decide" and that sort of thing.

By contrast, you have James Carville calling Bill Richardson "Judas" on national TV, twice no less. Between that and the letter to Pelosi, it's easy to see that it's the HRC camp that's gone public with all this and have rejected the behind-the-scenes, discreet route. They're taking it public, and in a pretty heavy-handed way.

HRC has received no public calls to drop out until now. By contrast, her camp has been openly castigating people who dare even suggest that things might not go her way. If that's what they're doing publicly, you can imagine the type of shit they do when they think no one's watching.

[Zueda]

6. I sometimes wonder if some here are grounded in reality

but just like screwing with people.

[Dr Fate]

7. Post doubleplusgood!

I've seen doublethink, but this takes the cake.

Narrowing down the race to the strongest candidate helps the party...

Be honest- if it was Obama or Edwards in the rear, a whole lot more top DEMS and the entire DLC would have already called for him to step down- and he would have.

[Mooney]

112. If it was Obama or Edwards

they would have dropped out a month ago. We wouldn't even be sitting here having this discussion.

[knight_of_the_star]

135. You are Fail

[kirby]

9. Are you serious? "most admired persons in the nation" LOL

"Senior members of the Democratic Party are taking one of the most admired persons in the nation and publicly backing her into a corner. "

She is the politician who is most disliked (highest unfavorable ratings) to ever enter a presidential race!

Leahy and Richardson understand that Hillary is too far behind to catch up and her staying in until the convention allows McCain to fly around the world looking Presidential while our party still battles it out.

[Mags]

10. Well the only ones publicly saying she should drop out are

BHO supporters, I think they are scared to let it play out, the only sure way they know he can win is to stop the game right now.

[dionysus]

16. do you even believe what you type?

seriously?

[Mags]

22. who else is asking her to drop out other then BHO supporters?

Seriously!!!!!!!

[dionysus]

27. in case this escaped your grasp.... of course it is Obama supporters, and we far outnumber you....

in states, delegates, votes, liberal columnists, pundits and radio hosts... and soon in superdelegates...

seriously!!!

:eyes:

[Mags]

34. No you don't, as many people 22% think BHO should drop out.

[dionysus]

42. obviously 22% of people are stupid, just like the 19% still for bush

keep trying...

[Alexander]

124. What was factually wrong about what dionysus said? Nothing.

You can't refute it other than with a pathetic "No you don't".

Are you Hillucinating again? You should lay off the brown acid.

[kirby]

31. Superdeletgates have switched

from Hillary to Barack. Havent you heard this? People who supported or campaigned for Hilary have switched. Many whose own districts voted for Barack.

[Mags]

41. don't feel too secure, if the switched once they can switch again.

[gateley]

40. I think many of those endorsing her have BECOME BO supporters

as a result of her campaign tactics. She's driven them to him.

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Mags]

30. I really believe half of the BHO supporters here are really doing the work for

the rightwing. How do you think you are helping the Dem party with your cheap talk? Are you sure you are a real BHO supporter?

[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[babylonsister]

11. So everyone is wrong but Clinton. Gotcha.

Yes, we want a healthy atmosphere, and we know Hill has been around politics a long time; so why doesn't she see the writing on the wall? The 'crushing' wouldn't be necessary if Clinton was being realistic about what's going on. And while I'm at it, she's acting very selfishly, acting like she doesn't give two hoots about the party.

Speaking of not acting like a Dem, your derogatory comments about some good Dems puts you in the same boat as her.

[DURHAM D]

12. I agree with you.

All those old white men want to keep their senate power base - status quo. If Hillary were to get into the W.H. she would run the agenda. With Obama in the W.H. they will dictate to him. With McCain in the W.H. they can continue to shrug and says its not my fault.

[Raffi Ella]

36. exactly.

Hillary would demand action and true change.

[dionysus]

48. yeah, the DLC represents "real change"

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

[gateley]

49. You don't achieve results without

support and respect. I think she's lost both with a number of Dems.

And interesting that you would use the word "demand". I think Obama would achieve those changes with a supportive base - not have to DEMAND anything from them.

[cali]

13. Pat Leahy is ten fold- no make that a hundred fold

the dem and the progressive and liberal that hilly is. And he was serving in the Senate waging the good fight when hilly was just out of law school. He's earned the right to speak his mind about what he thinks is best for the party. Oh, and he's been told to fuck off by far tougher nuts than the likes of you. And sorry, but this is big political news. Leahy has never said anything negative about your gal.

[Dr Fate]

24. Conservatives are always telling Pat to F-off! LOL! Glad you caught that.

n/t

[Botany]

35. Hey B. call me

:rofl:

Loves me some Obama Girl

[dkf]

14. Leahy and Richardson are telling Hillary to "GET REAL!"

and not mouth "just words" about how she is going to win the nomination.

[dionysus]

15. glue huffing is a serious problem in america...

[Mooney]

115. LOL n/t

[Cheap_Trick]

17. I got a waaaaay better idea

Go fuck yourself. hilarity has lost. Deal with it and get over it. Obama would have had the class and grace to step aside once the MATH made it clear that there was no realistic way to win. Class and grace are things that hilarity and her acolytes are not acquainted with. She had the chance "to drop out in any face-saving manner", and yet she refused. The Democratic party needs to give another flush as you turds just keep circling the bowl.

[SammyWinstonJack]

102. "hilarity"? Talk about "class and grace"?

"turds" :eyes:

[Cheap_Trick]

138. just responding in kind to the OP

"In conclusion, to those who keep going on the air and screaming for Hillary to take her 1400 delegates and fold up: fuck you and the horse you rode in on. "


Maybe you didn't read it or something:eyes:.

[bunnies]

18. oooh. I just love "fuck you" threads.

They always result in such constructive dialog.

[OnceUponTimeOnTheNet]

28. LOL. It has been getting pretty base for while on here.

I've flung poo on threads, but missed the Fuck ones before!

[bunnies]

50. Oh, I highly suggest keeping an eye out for them.

See how amusing they get? :popcorn:

edit: highly not high. doh.

[Bake]

137. I especially like being to do go fuck myself and then to get over it.

Sounds just like the freepers in 2000 and 2004. Most of them can't even spell "lose" correctly (e.g., "your candidate is a looser, get over it, go fuck yourself.").

Bake

[azmouse]

20. Kiss your mother with that mouth?

[Raffi Ella]

21. AMEN

BRAVO Crisco.

[Botany]

23. It is the other way around

Add Chris Dodd, Bob Casey, and Nancy Pelosi to those
who want to "tear apart the party." They have to do it publicly
because Hillary refuses to listen in private or look @ the math.

Talk about tearing the party apart Bill went on Rush's show,
Hillary went on Fox, and spent 2+ hours with Richard Mellon
Scaife trying to get the Rev. Wright story going again.

You better get ready because Hillary is about to hit w/
a landslide of party leaders & superdelegates telling her
it is over.

[NashVegas]

38. That Would Be a Tragic Mistake

If they want to do that, they have to take it to the back room. "Women of a certain age" have a firm recollection of history, and know damn well that other losing contenders have previously been allowed to carry their campaigns all the way to the convention.

[Botany]

45. But there has never been anybody who acted like such a shit as Clinton

Publicly supporting McCain as she lies about everything from her name
to NAFTA.

She needs to be stopped now.

[dionysus]

46. you really *would* like to see the party to collapse just so we coronate your pathetic queen huh?

[Capn Sunshine]

33. Lord

you guys are making it SO hard to play nice.

I really can't stand it here any more but it's reached the train wreck stage. Can't look away.

I WILL be really glad to be rid of the Clinton campaign and their inside the beltway entitled status quo fight the people triangulating ways. It exemplifies everything bad about political parties.

We've reached a new low when venerated party leaders , hundreds of them, are called names for their reasoned viewpoints.

Hillary would be so much better off without this Klan of Klowns, she's so much better than this.

[UALRBSofL]

37. Crisco I agree with your post

That being said you will have the Obama supporters disagreeing but that's ok because they are partisan. That said, thanks for pointing out the obvious.

[cali]

47. and you and the OP aren't partisan? LOL

I sincerely believe that Pat Leahy is speaking out of concern for the party and the November election. I heard his full comment this morning on VPR and in no way did he denigrate Hillary. In fact, he said he thinks she has an illustrious future in the Senate. And he wasn't really speaking to her, he was addressing the undecided SDs.

[dionysus]

39. i don't think one of the "most admired persons in the nation" is disliked by half the country...

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

[cascadiance]

43. NO! Hillary Clinton has made it impossible for her to drop out in any face saving manner...

Let's stop playing the Bush style push the blame elsewhere game.

If someone keeps pushing the limits and hurts civility in a group, at some point others are going to call out that person for what they are doing. It is not the person who's calling them out's fault. It's the fault of that person who's pushing the limits of civility.

[Ian_rd]

51. You said it before I did.

Hillary could have saved face weeks ago. Blaming the others stepping in to convince her to drop out is like blaming the participants of an alcoholic intervention of unkindly embarrassing the alcoholic.

[Mooney]

117. Yes, brilliant.

These are no longer calls for her to drop out. It's an intervention.

I wish I had thought of that. Can I say it a lot? Do you mind?

[Ian_rd]

122. Hehe. Please do!

:beer:

[Mooney]

125. Outstanding!

I'm going to say it every thirty seconds. I'm going to interrupt people I don't know on line at the DMV and say it.

Huzzah!

[SoonerPride]

44. Your nuts

[LisaM]

53. Crisco, you are right.

Fox News started in on Hillary in 1992, and it's never let up since then. I have always admired her toughness and resiliency, even when I didn't agree with every vote that she made. I think she is bright, engaged, and cares deeply, and always has, about this country. I think her views on healthcare and education are better than Obama'a.

What I don't understand in particular, in these ridiculous demands that she drop out now, is the fact that no one acknowledges this! Maria Cantwell is talking about dropping her support for Hillary. Yet we all know that Hillary helped Cantwell get elected both times, that they are friends, and that Cantwell admires Hillary. So how unfair is it that she is being pressured to support someone else?

Are Leahy, Richardson, et al demanding that Hillary drop out because they don't agree with her on issues? No, it's because, IMO, they want to hitch their wagon to a star, and just be with a frontrunner. Don't get me started on negative campaigning, because I think Hillary has been completely sandbagged by people who should be her friends, has been cast as a racist with no one coming to her defense, and on and on.

The Clinton administration was not perfect, and Hillary's role in it was probably not as influential as people think. However, we are likely much better off having had Bill Clinton as president between 1992 and 2000 than if we'd had unabated Reagans and Bushes since then (most likely would have been Jeb, who would have been just as shady as Bill).

[cali]

72. Oh for the love of reason. Pat Leahy doesn't need to

hitch his star to anyone. He's Senator for as long as he wishes- he's incredibly popular in VT. He's one of the most senior and powerful dems on the Hill, and he's never had any ambitions beyond Senator. He hasn't gotten rich off of being in government. He's ranked as the 96th richest Senator. He's not big pork barrel guy. What on earth could Obama give him? Oh, and Leahy has never done anything but speak graciously of Hillary- including this morning on VPR. I heard him. Did you?

[40ozDonkey]

89. Thank God you're here.

..to pounce on the bullshit conclusions and generalizations that people throw out in the hopes that no one is paying attention. You're on point in every thread I've seen you in.

No joke, half of the time I go to hit reply and come to find you've already typed it out for me. Thanks for what you do.

[cali]

95. whoa. that's awfully nice of you to say.

thanks for the complement.

:hi:

[Warren DeMontague]

81. They're out to get her!!!!

Everyone is out to get her!!! Pat Leahy and Ted Kennedy are in league with FOX News! It's totally unfair!~

:eyes:

[theredpen]

56. I think by cozying up to the right-wing noise machines and trafficking in smears...

...she's made it hard for herself to do anything in a face-saving way.

I can't even see how Obama could offer her a cabinet position at this point.

[stillrockin]

57. As Sam Seder would comment,

"Come with me and you'll be in a world of pure imagination . . . "
:crazy:

[redqueen]

79. Aw, I love that song.

:)

[beandoc]

58. I think it would be best for the party if HRC ended her campaign

But I understand your point about publicly calling her out. The effect on calling anyone out in public usually results in a defensive response (see a good portion of this board for examples), rather than considering the unsolicited advice. So, short of your concluding remarks, I agree with your premise. That being said, a lot of dems are concerned about the effects of this prolonged primary fight and I don't know if there is a way to have an effective private "intervention" by the party.

[zulchzulu]

59. Obama will beat Clinton in PA...she needs to be humiliated first

Polls already have Obama within striking distance in PA and he's just getting started. Clinton is out of money and is sitting in the middle of the Schuykill River without a paddle.

I'm predicting that Obama will seal the deal in PA by 2-3%...it's over three weeks away and once Obama starts slamming Clinton on her actual record on supporting NAFTA when she said she was against it, her numbers are going to slide like the Phillies usually do in the Fall.

It is already nearly impossible that Clinton will get the nomination and I'm all for crushing her chances with her loss in PA. She deserves it.

[NashVegas]

88. Fair Enough

I think if she loses PA, she suffer *the right sort* of humiliation and will most certainly drop out. It's the calls from non-competitors that are seriously bad news.

[eallen]

61. Au contraire. By going public, they're giving her a face saving way to drop out.

"While I appreciate the millions who have supported me in this race, my fellow Democratic leaders have convinced me that at this point it is the best thing for our nation and our party for me to suspend my campaign..."

There is nothing wrong, dishonorable, or embarrassing in that.

:hippie:

[immoderate]

83. That's right! Dropping out will save her face...

Carrying on to a humiliating defeat and preventing the Democrats from regaining the White House will not stand her in good stead. She will never be president.

--IMM

[NashVegas]

90. With All Due Respect

I don't feel you understand what the phrase "face saving" means.

[2rth2pwr]

62. If it was the other way around they would be accused of racism.

[Dr Fate]

68. If it were the other way around, there would be a lot more DEMS calling for Obama to drop out...

And I believe he would have- but the facts did not line up that way...

Face it- if this were anyone but the Clintons, large numbers of the party elite would have already lined up behind the inevitable nominee and called for an end...

[JBoy]

63. So if they would just shut up, Hillary would drop out on her own?

Total bullshit.

[WVRevy]

65. This is not the Hillary Clinton Party.

It's the Democratic Party. Who gives a flying fuck if Shrillary gets to save face? If she wanted to save face and protect her party, she'd have dropped out weeks ago. Leahy and Richardson just have the balls to say so publicly.

[charlie]

66. A jaw-dropping margin of Clintonistas

wouldn't vote for Obama before Richardson or Leahy opened their yaps, so you can't lay it at their feet. A good portion of the Clinton camp has long been infected with the Hillary-or-nobody disease.

[Symarip]

67. Healthy Atmosphere?

These two have been going at it for months and we're the ones who suffer. The senior Democrats see this and know it needs to end. The call for Clinton to drop out is not one of vengeance or anger. We need to move forward with the process of winning the White House. I would hope that if Obama was in the same position Clinton is now, he'd fold up his tent and go back to the Senate a better man.

It's understandable that Hillary supporters truly believe she would be a better president than Obama. Personally, I think we had much better candidates earlier on than both of them. But now we're down to two Senators, and the Senator from New York is trailing... Badly. Sure, it's close, but close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades. He's won with every metric except the Super Delegates. She simply cannot win without fracturing the party in two essentially making both candidates unelectable. All the while, McCain stumbles his way closer to being the President.

At some point, we're going to have to coalesce around the party nominee. Some people say, let the process work itself out, but I can't see at this point any benefit to continuing. The numbers are stagnant and nothing is going to change except the level and depth of our frustrations. I have a few friends who are Clinton supporters and I truly love them. I think they're stuck on the idea that she's a better candidate and would make a better president. But at some point, SOMEONE has to lose and well, she's losing. It's a painful process but the sooner we get over this, the quicker we can heal and move forward to a DEMOCRAT in the Oval Office.

By the way, saying 'fuck you' really gets you far in getting people to listen to your argument.

[Life Long Dem]

69. She has every right to stay in the race.

Telling her to get out is one thing but it's her decision.

[msallied]

70. WAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH n/t

[NoodleyAppendage]

71. YES. The DINO/DLC Wing of the Dem Party MUST BE CRUSHED.

I would love nothing else than to see a complete routing of DLC/DINO Dems from our Party. They have done enough damage moving the Party to Repuke-lite.

J

[redqueen]

73. Do you know for certain that they haven't talked to her in private already?

I would think that that has probably already happened. Long ago, when it first became apparent that her campaign was becoming quixotic.

[NashVegas]

98. No Idea

As churlish as it is for an anonymous poster to hit this board and demand she drop out it's one thing.

But when you've got a Pat Leahy and whomever going to the public media and calling for a candidate to drop out when that candidate is within a 10 percent margin - and theoretically is still in the running, and the candidate in question also happens to perpetually turn up in the #1 spot on Gallup's "Most Admired Women" poll ... how can they not see that it will be perceived by some voters as a demand that she throw the contest?

[redqueen]

101. I understand that lots who admire her will be upset...

but we have to keep in mind that these long, drawn-out primaries send up losing candidates. They are left too bruised (and broke) and the opponent gets to coast to victory.

We have slightly over seven months left to focus our sights on McCain.

[Catherina]

75. Correction. By refusing to listen to all the entreaties they made to her

in private she has made making it impossible for herself to drop out in any face-saving manner.

By refusing to listen to people, she forced them to go public. It's all very sad to watch because she didn't need to go out this way.

[Pawel K]

77. Richardson wants to see Clinton crushed?

Are you fucking out of your mind? Do you have any idea who Richardson is and how he got to where he is today?

How does this bullshit end up on the greatest page? Come on Hillary supporters, you're not all that naive, are you? (well as of this post, apparently 12 of you are)

[slinkerwink]

78. half the nation doesn't admire her.

[Warren DeMontague]

80. Really? So you mean if they were silent or asked her to stay in, THEN she would drop out?

Bullshit. She has proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that this is about HER and HER TURN and HER EGO.

She's not going to drop out because Leahy asks her too, certainly. But let's not be so disingenuous as to try and suggest that she would drop out if he and other Party notables simply wouldn't ask her too. If Leahy, RIchardson, etc. weren't saying anything, Team Clinton would argue that their silence was an implied endorsement of her remaining in the race.

The only reason anyone is "backing Hillary into a corner" is because everybody knows there is NO WAY that the egomaniacs in her inner circle will come to the conclusion that they need to do the right thing on their own.

Hillary can still bow out with class and look like a hero, but I don't hold out a ton of hope that she'll do that. Hence, it's time for the rest of the party to start thinking about our collective prospects, and not just the prospects of one particular family.

Enough is enough.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

82. So, would you prefer that they lie? And, what's so important about Hillary's "face"?

Or, any other politician's?

[otohara]

84. You Won't Be Happy No Matter How

this is resolved unless Hillary is the nominee even if after all is said and done, Obama still leads in popular vote and delegate vote.

Patrick Leahy & Bill Richardson don't strike me as guys who are out for blood, just an end to the destructive tactics The Clinton's are taking to win at all costs when it looks as if it's mathematically impossible.

Why is it necessary to throw in "fuck you"

[DefenseLawyer]

85. Meanwhile, back on Earth.... n/t

[papau]

86. I agree - the stamp down women part of the Democratic Party is determined - F--k them

[Umbram]

93. deleted. (nt)

[cali]

94. Oh please

anyone suggesting Pat is part of some mythical "stamp down women part of the dem party", is simply a pukling liar. Fuck them.

[yardwork]

96. I've heard some convuluted logic, but this takes the cake.

[emilyg]

97. Thank you Crisco. K/r

[KittyWampus]

114. I can no longer respect DU'ers who support Clinton. People have serious problems

and they are going to effect ALL of us.

[emilyg]

119. That's fine.

Go Hillary.

[NashVegas]

144. I'm Sorry You Feel That Way

But I see no reason for Clinton to drop out of the race.

[SoCalDem]

99. They are actually trying to RETURN it to the "people"

the losers will be the DLCers who have tried to marginalize everyone as "wit-us-or-a'gin-us"...remind you of anyone:P?

That's what's behind the 50-state strategy, and the grassroots organizing in all states..turning power back to the "little people".. With the internet(s), candidates can raise money without being beholden to the "powers that be" anymore..

It's a GOOD thing :)

[NashVegas]

111. That's the Dichotomy of It

And a very perplexing one at that.

[rucky]

100. "face-saving manner"

that's the key phrase, right there. Pride is killing us - not any one person.

[NashVegas]

116. That's Something People Who Live In Service To Their Community & Country Are Allowed

People who do great things for the greater public's good screw up just as anyone else, but when they do, they are usually allowed to walk away with some amount of pride.

A lot has changed in modern times, but I'm not sure that that's a baby ought to be thrown out with the bathwater.

[rucky]

I'll have to agree with you.

We need to give her an out on her own terms.

[DevonRex]

127. Hillary can choose to save face...

or she can choose NOT to save face. Since all the private talks with her have failed, she has chosen the latter.

Simple as that.

[question everything]

103. Right. Like DUers here, they don't care about the party

they blackmail us that African Americans will not vote; they call us racist, they have no problem with supporting Reagan loving candidate; they have no problem with the fact that core Democrats (not black, of course) voted for Clinton while Independent and Republicans - who may or may not be there for him in November - voted for Obama.

And now some even want her out of the Senate, if she loses this race.

But she is the one who should drop out.

The good old boy network is alive and well, supported by misguided females

[cali]

113. fuck that stupid shit

I'm a woman. I'm not misguided because I don't support Hill, and I'm a Vermonter. I trust Pat over Hill any time of the day or night. Hell, I trusted Jim Jeffords over Hill.

[joshcryer]

129. Uh, your comments about Hillary have been highly irrational in the past.

I would say you were misguided.

[anonymous171]

120. More biracial partiarchy conspiracies!

:rofl: I love how some have convinced themselves that the Clintons are outsiders.

[joshcryer]

130. Are you suggesting that Obama is an "outsider"?

:rofl:

[anonymous171]

131. Any proof otherwise?

[JVS]

143. Point me to the former president that travels the country stumping for him constantly

[indimuse]

106. Super KICK...Up THEIR ASS!

Rec!!

[cali]

110. hilly will never be

as good a dem or as effective a Senator as Pat- and she will never achieve his stature or seniority. Never. She's just an ambitious carpetbagger. He's the essence of a real Vermonter and a true progressive.

[indimuse]

128. I don't agree with you about Hilliary,

but have always loved Pat and held him the highest of highest...and yes, he is a real Vermonter.

[Lucky 13]

118. Attempt at a fair and honest reply...

I respect your passion for your candidate, but I disagree with you on many counts. Probably nothing I could type will change your mind, but I hope you don't flame me for trying...


There are many different reasons why people are calling on her to drop out. It's not just one thing, or one reason. There's a myriad.

1) It is next to impossible for her to win mathematically.
I think she needs to win the remaining states by 67% to catch up. Not IMPOSSIBLE in and of itself. BUT when you consider which states are left and what she'd need to get those kind of numbers it might as well be. She had been up by 20pts in PA, but a recent poll indicates Obama has closed the gap to 10-15. He's up by 20 pts in N. Carolina and 15 pts in Indiana. She is not going to get close to the numbers she needs to close the gap. And I think she knows that.

So the question is, WHY are we wasting MILLIONS from both campaigns and the party to continue this fight for the LONGEST of LONG SHOTS?

But that wouldn't be enough for ME to ask her to drop out. There's more...

2) The "Tonya Harding" option appears to be a legitimate concern.
Many people believe that this is really the only viable option for her to pull off a victory. Looking at the numbers, I can't see what else she is hoping for besides this. So she has the motive, but is she capable of it? Before this primary, I would have said, "NO WAY. Hillary wouldn't go that route. She's too classy for that." But now... I don't know. Her own actions during this campaign indicate to me that this woman will do anything and I mean ANYTHING to win. Up to and including throwing respected Dem. leaders and the party itself under the bus. (I'm not going to cite specific examples here in the interest of time, but can if you feel it's necessary.)

So because of that. Because of this sense of desperation I get from her. Because she's shown she's capable. I think she might actually go for it. And the thing about that is, once she goes that route, the damage likely cannot be undone and Dems are SCREWED. No Dem will end up in the White House.

But even still, I might not consider asking her to drop out. But there's still more...

3) The fear that she lacks the sensibility to recognize WHEN it's time to go.
If you were to tell me today that Hillary PROMISES that if the polls turn out to be accurate and she wins PA by only 10-15, loses NC by 20, and loses IN by 15 - thus making winning by the rules impossible, that then she will drop out. If you promised me THAT. I'd feel a whole hell of a lot better about this. What REALLY worries me is that scenario will play out and she STILL won't give up and we have to waste more time, energy, effort, emotion, etc. fighting each other when we really need to be ramping up for McCain. I fear she will take this to the convention NO MATTER the numbers. NO MATTER if she is losing, NO MATTER HOW MUCH she is losing. That's a scary prospect.

4) At present, she is a loose cannon. You never know what she is going to say or do next and you don't know what is truth and what is fiction. She has high POTENTIAL to seriously damage the party and the nominee. But she has LOW potential to actually WIN legitimately.

5) Many feel she has acted dishonorably toward the party. Her abandonment of her own signed pledge and public statements acknowledging MI and FL elections would not count and then saying the DNC and OBAMA are disenfranchising voters (an argument I'd take MUCH more seriously if she had voiced ANY concerns BEFORE it became clear it was to her advantage)... saying or implying McCain is a better candidate than another Democrat... that ridiculous donor letter to Pelosi... and the campaign's attempt to shame high-level Dems and superdelegates that show support for Obama. It leaves a BITTER BITTER taste in MANY Dems mouth and lends to the theory she WILL damage the party if it benefits her. And I don't know about you, I want someone in the white house LOYAL to democrats and the party.

6) Despite her and her supporters claims, she is not doing well in the polls either. The most concerning poll I saw showed something like 57% of people found her UNTRUSTWORTHY. She was just caught in a RIDICULOUS FABRICATION. It was a LIE. It was not "mis-speaking". And whether you like it or not, admit it or not, most of America saw it that way and she looked FOOLISH. She also refuses to release her tax records. How the FUCK do we know there isn't some HORRIBLE skeleton in THAT closet waiting to slit our throats come the GE? There is NO REASON the tax returns shouldn't be available to people by now and any excuses are just that... excuses.


SO, I think why Leahy and Richardson have said she needs to end this is not because of one thing, but because of ALL things. And they aren't trying to back her into a corner or detroy her. I think many people have felt she needed to leave for a long time now and most have stayed completely silent about it. But some people believe she will NEVER quit, no matter the numbers, and whether she drops out today or two months or never, the result will be the same. Obama will be the nominee and the party will have wasted untold resources on a pointless fight.

I WISH Hillary would drop out now for the sake of my candidate and the party. But I'm willing to give her the benefit of the doubt for a few more contests. I recognize she's probably spent her entire life leading up to this moment and it's hard to let go and if it takes a couple more losses to convince her, lets give her that. But if she continues to do poorly, and isn't closing the gap, and STILL won't drop out...I fully support the party intervening with more than just individual statements.

Much respect. Peace.

[LynneSin]

126. So it's ok that Hillary consorts with people like Richard Mellon Scaife

I'd like to see her stick it out until after Pennsylvania but personally the only one tearing apart this party is Hillary. It just seems that her and Bill have taken on this "Win at ALL costs" mentality that has them coming out with some doozies of stories, smears against Obama (yes and smears back her from Obama) and agreeing to interview with Richard Mellon Scaife's Pittsburgh Tribune when she could have done the same thing with the more widely read and less right-wing smear rag Pittsburgh Post-Gazette.

[NashVegas]

You Know What That Reminds Me Of?

Seeing a propagandic slam at someone like Hugo Chavez for cozying up to Ahmajinidad, when we don't exactly give him too many choices in who to make friends with, among world leaders. (I'm not comparing Clinton to Hugo, just the Scaife situation. The mainstream press is pretty much her enemy. See my sig.)

[LynneSin]

134. I don't see it, this is apples and oranges

It's not like Clinton had no other newspapers available for her to do an interview for the Pittsburgh region. The Tribune-Review hardly has the circulation numbers that could sway an election but insteads is more of a rag for Mellon-Scaife to do his right-wing smear tactics (similiar with Moon and the Washington Times). Then I read where the San Francisco Chronicle, without a doubt a liberal leaning paper, wanted to reinterview the candidates to reconsider their endorsement - Hillary refused. It's not like she has to fly out to the West Coast to do this, I'm sure she could do it all in a 15 minute phone call.

[AllentownJake]

133. I think

They have tried calling and being nice first...this is just the beginning...

[Catherine Vincent]

142. ...

"In conclusion, to those who keep going on the air and screaming for Hillary to take her 1400 delegates and fold up: fuck you and the horse you rode in on. "

Amen!

[grantcart]

145. that is a lot of personal bitterness

[RBInMaine]

146. HOGWASH !

[KoKo]

148. Interesting insight... K&R

[NashVegas]

152. It Feels Like They've All Dropped Their Knickers

And have no idea how much of their contempt for the public they're showing.

[Life Long Dem]

149. Up until yesterday I wanted to see her crushed.

But with today's trolls spamming the board, I want to know when she is going to quit?

[WillyT]

150. Wow... Impressive Spin...

The very definition of convoluted logic.

You should go work for her campaign.

:evilgrin:

[Ravy]

151. I agree. nt

[ChairmanAgnostic]

153. can you spell "d e l u s i o n a l ? Can you?

Hello boys and girls. Welcome to my neighborhood of ignore.

[NashVegas]

154. Not Only Can I Spell It

But I can also use end quotes and proper spacing.

[tbyg52]

155. Maybe they tried private persuasion and it didn't work..nt

[AX10]

156. Both of them can go to hell!!

I am tired of this party.
I am tired of the constant bashing of HRC. This reaks of what happened to Gore in 2000. Enough is enough. This time, the left wing activists are in on the bashing too.

[DemVet]

157. Uh...

that's go to hell, but I agree with you.

[AX10]

159. At this point...

if McCain became the President with a Democratic congress, I can live with that.
I cannot vote in good faith for Mr. Obama. I don't have any "love" for Obama or McCain.

[althecat]

158. "they are making it impossible for her to drop out in any face-saving manner. "

One of the most idiotic posts today....

And there is lots of competition.

[TexanDem]

160. IMHO it ain't Leahy & Richardson tearing apart the party!

[RestoreGore]

161. yes, the good ole boys network wants the woman out

And Obama condoning that is despicable.

[JoFerret]

162. They have misspoken

and should be reprimanded.

[Johnny__Motown]

164. Holy crap.. all that spin is made me spill my drink

[GoneOffShore]

165. Despite your being here since 2001

And your approaching 20K posts, this is what I'd expect from one of the more recently signed on disruptors who have made this board hell since primary season started.

Yes, there are people who want to see Mrs Clinton "crushed" as you put it. There are others of us who would like to see here quietly fold her tent and disappear into private life where she won't be able to do any more damage to the Democratic Party.

However, if she gets the nomination, which is becoming increasingly unlikely, I will reluctantly pull the lever for her in November and then sadly watch as President McCain is sworn in in January 2009.

[graycem]

166. Whether she stays or goes is not what's

"tearing apart" the party, the tactics are what's creating the animosity. Even if she takes it to the convention floor, if different tactics had been or begin to be used, it wouldn't or won't be as bitter as it is. There is still time to change tacks in all of this. I was glad that Hillary said the other day that she and Barack only differ slightly, and urged voters to vote for whoever the democratic nominee is. Both of them should do this more.


Though I do think too, if her name were, Hillary Rodham Williams, or Hillary Rodham "anything but Clinton", she would've already bowed out by now. If Obama were in 2nd place, he might stay in and choose to go forward even with the math not in his favor, but he would be being mocked too, and when that didn't work, pressured to get out by those who DO believe it's dividing the party. Still, I don't think it is wise to do this. There are after all, so many states that are voting this late in the game, and feel like, they finally have a voice. Please let's be better than that. Let them share in this process that is ultimately the greatest thing about our country. Whichever one loses, will be of their own doing. As nasty as we think we've been with each other, we ain't seen nothing yet. Wait until we demand the war party give up their power. All this stuff won't matter, because contrary to all the passionate "support" of our candidates, we are all Democrats, for better or worse. And I know you've seen the vile You tube videos on both of them already, and they should offend all of us equally. Even if I'm disappointed in Hillary at the moment, because of my hope in Obama's ideas it makes me biased (ditto on the reverse), if she is the nominee, you can bet I will defend her tooth and nail to the Republicans in the fall. I just hope we all come to our senses by the end of the primaries and remember who the enemy is. John McCain will fight every bit as dirty as Bush did against Kerry by way of 527's, and you can bet they are already working on their commercials for both potential candidates. It is worse to be perceived as pushing out a close competitor than to just let it play out. The nominee has to be legitamite to the majority of democrats, else we all might as well vote for McCain or stay home, and the outcome will be the same.

[TBF]

167. Give me a break...

Hillary is the one who started the negativity with her "I love John McCain and we belong in the White House together" ad. Now she needs to gracefully concede and write her memoirs. Enough revisionist history already.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

168. ditto that

[mmonk]

170. Dreamworld. They are trying to save it for November.

[against all enemies]

171. Leave my horse out of it. And fuck you too.

[JCMach1]

172. They want her to quietly go back to the kitchen...

that's the essence of their position.

And you are right, they left no room for Hillary to bow out gracefully.

[OzarkDem]

173. "Iron My Shirt" Democrats

They've both lost my respect. The lobbyist, corporate controlled environment of Washington DC has drastically interfered with common sense.