U Of Chicago debunks Clinton claim, affirms Professor of Law Barack Obama

[housewolf]

A recent Clinton campaign research document charged that Barack Obama was falsely claiming to be a professor:

Sen. Obama consistently and falsely claims that he was a law professor. The Sun-Times reported that, "Several direct-mail pieces issued for Obama's primary campaign said he was a law professor at the University of Chicago. He is not. He is a senior lecturer (now on leave) at the school. In academia, there is a vast difference between the two titles. Details matter." In academia, there's a significant difference: professors have tenure while lecturers do not.

Today, the University of Chicago released the following statement:

The Law School has received many media requests about Barack Obama, especially about his status as "Senior Lecturer." From 1992 until his election to the U.S. Senate in 2004, Barack Obama served as a professor in the Law School. He was a Lecturer from 1992 to 1996. He was a Senior Lecturer from 1996 to 2004, during which time he taught three courses per year. Senior Lecturers are considered to be members of the Law School faculty and are regarded as professors, although not full-time or tenure-track. The title of Senior Lecturer is distinct from the title of Lecturer, which signifies adjunct status. Like Obama, each of the Law School's Senior Lecturers have high-demand careers in politics or public service, which prevent full-time teaching. Several times during his 12 years as a professor in the Law School, Obama was invited to join the faculty in a full-time tenure-track position, but he declined.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/03/28/university-of-chicago-ob_n_93896.html

[lligrd]

1. Someone Let Me Know If She Says Anything True

that will be different.

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

3. lol - but its kinda sad, I hate to see this

The Clintons had all of that scandal and stuff, and still left office well liked.

They should have stayed retired.

Its never good to come out of retirement and try to keep the new talent from
having a chance.

[lligrd]

6. It Is Very Sad. I'm Beginning To Wonder If My Defense Of Them

all this time was actually valid. She's making it look like the Repukes were correct about her.

[IndianaGreen]

67. If Hillary's lips are moving, she is lying.

She puts Nixon to shame!

[bluestateguy]

2. Students refer to adjunct professors and lecturers as "professor"

The only difference between a tenured/tenure track professor an an adjunct/lecturer is that the latter is usually hired year to year and is not expected to publish and do research.

[Lucinda]

5. Which is also why a lecturer doesn't refer to themselves as a professor

though their students may use the term.

[SunsetDreams]

8. good thing...

it wasn't the students debunking it thenB-)

[merh]

13. Just checking, you aren't trying to say that Obama overstated

his position are you?

I mean, you didn't miss this from the Law School's press release, did you?

From 1992 until his election to the U.S. Senate in 2004, Barack Obama served as a professor in the Law School.

[Lucinda]

14. Yes...and I SERVED as a professor when I taught. But I wasn't a professor. I was a lecturer.

[merh]

18. So you are saying just what the law school says.

He served as a professor.

[Lucinda]

21. But he was NOT one. The faculty are Professors. The Lecturers are a seperate

entity entirely. Serving as a professor just means he performed part of the function of a professor, as a lecturer.

http://www.law.uchicago.edu/faculty/index.html

[merh]

22. Not according to the law school.

Do you know what contract he had with them? And he was asked several times to become a tenured member and he declined.

Hell, even the snippet from the bio I posted below refers to him as senior lecturer, that comes from his official bio.

I don't get your point, you seem to want to disagree with what the law school states. Are you suggesting some conspiracy?

[Lucinda]

24. LOL

I linked directly to law schools page. Their press statement was to help Obama. Their own (linked) breakdowns show the distinction between the two positions.

[merh]

27. You linked to what on their web page?

The Faculty Page? That proves what, that they have one? I checked and can't find professor listed in their "Faculty Type" search window. This is for 2008, do you know how this may have looked in 2004 or if they had such a web site in 2004? Do you know what contract the law school had with Obama?

Please provide some actual proof of your accusations and not just some wild speculation because you don't like the man.

[Lucinda]

31. Look under the word Faculty in the drop-down

thats where the professors are listed. Select faculty and then search. You dont need a name. Then look under Senior Lecturers which is where the Senior Lecturers are listed.

And where did I say I don't like Obama?
I said he wasn't a Con Law Professor. Which he isn't.

These titles just didn't appear btw - they've been used awhile. :)

[roguevalley]

82. so now the university is colluding to have him elected. HUZZAH!

he's captured academe. you will forgive me if I laugh.

[merh]

25. Let me post this for you again

so that you can re-read what the law school has to say about his work for and with them, his status.

The Law School has received many media requests about Barack Obama, especially about his status as "Senior Lecturer." From 1992 until his election to the U.S. Senate in 2004, Barack Obama served as a professor in the Law School. He was a Lecturer from 1992 to 1996. He was a Senior Lecturer from 1996 to 2004, during which time he taught three courses per year. Senior Lecturers are considered to be members of the Law School faculty and are regarded as professors, although not full-time or tenure-track. The title of Senior Lecturer is distinct from the title of Lecturer, which signifies adjunct status. Like Obama, each of the Law School's Senior Lecturers have high-demand careers in politics or public service, which prevent full-time teaching. Several times during his 12 years as a professor in the Law School, Obama was invited to join the faculty in a full-time tenure-track position, but he declined.

So if you have problems with how the law school qualifies his position and you work with this law school, may I suggest you go to them for clarification of your position so you can update your resume accordingly. If you don't work with this law school then you really don't have any room to challenge what they have stated.

[Lucinda]

26. Let me post this for you again

I linked directly to law schools page. Their press statement was to help Obama. Their own (linked) breakdowns show the distinction between the two positions.

[merh]

28. You linked me to the faculty page

and you did not provide that break down and I don't see it, I don't even find "professor" listed in their "faculty type" search window. Provide me the link to that description and/or tell me where you found it at the link you provided.

Then go beyond the page that is today's web page and prove to me what is current in 2008 applies to what was in 2004.

Do you know what agreement the school had with Obama? Do you know what contract he had with them, what understanding?

[Lucinda]

32. I answered above. And it was no different in 2004.

These classifications in Education have been around awhile.

.

[merh]

34. Well not according to the law school

but that doesn't matter to you cause you know.

[Lucinda]

35. Are you doing this on purpose or do you really not get it?

He is not, and has never been a Con Law Professor. If he said he was on his resume and went to apply for a university position he'd be shown the door.

He IS a Senior Lecturer in Con Law. And evidently a good one if they repeatedly offered him a tenure track. But that doesn't make him a Professor.

[merh]

38. According to the Law School he was a professor

What part of that are you not getting?

LOL, I know, you been there and done that, but you have no clue about Obama's agreement was with that law school, you are just refuting what the law school has said because you can.

[Lucinda]

39. Now you're just wasting my time. SERVED as a professor.

A concept you seem unable to grasp.
And now we're done. :hi:

[woolldog]

40. lucinda, your unwillingness to accept that the Clinton campaing was wrong on this

is just pathetic.

Talk about grasping at straws...

[Lucinda]

50. LOL. Do you teach college?

I have. I know the difference.

[VolcanoJen]

73. Haughty, much?

Is this really that tricky for you to grasp?

[Lucinda]

97. Nope. And I understand the distinction just fine.

[U4ikLefty]

102. Yes, and the fact that Obama was offered tenure must piss you off.

The fact that he declined that tenured position REALLY must piss you off.

I call this a disticntion without a difference.

Nice try as picking nits.

[Lucinda]

103. LOL. No.I actually think its pretty great that they offered him a position.

He was evidently a great lecturer. Which I have mentioned several times in this thread.

[grantcart]

76. I have a senior looking at colleges and I would like to know where you taught so

we can send her to a place where the 'professors' or 'lecturers' or the person leading the instruction in the classroom understand the meaning of "distinction without a difference".

Your reply will help us narrow down the list by one institutuion. (Oh and my brother a judge goes to a well known university and teaches at their law university. Because it is part time he is termed a Senior Lecturer. The law students refer to him as Professor _______________ years afterwards.

[Lucinda]

94. ...

Decided to remove the school name. :)

[roguevalley]

84. teaching college. big deal. anyone can.

[grantcart]

100. not under sniper fire

[woolldog]

105. Sorry to kick this thread again.

but yeah, as I said before I'm an attorney and my brother is a law professor.

You're not qualified to have an opinion on this.

[Lucinda]

108. Well then... I'm sure your brother can explain it to you. Give him a call.

:hi:

[woolldog]

109. I did.

He thinks you're a clown for disputing it. wlucinda-> :+

[EFerrari]

45. The University disagrees with you and unless you are the granting authority

you are wrong.

[roguevalley]

83. and you know more about the university than the university themselves?

how omnipotent of you.

[AP]

44. Notice there's no "Professor" category in that drop-down? All the ones that teach in classroom are

"Professors".

[ClassWarrior]

79. Snap!

I notice you didn't get an answer...

NGU.

[roguevalley]

81. reread the thing. God. reread it. so now you are rewriting the u's

policies. I didn't know you had such powers.

[Leopolds Ghost]

90. It depends on what the meaning of "is professor" is.......

[sudopod]

4. kick for interesting

[lapfog_1]

7. I taught at the University level for 4 years

as an Instructor, I didn't even have a college degree (special accommodation for me) as I was an undergraduate for the entire time.

Still, even though I was younger than many of my students, I was refereed to as "Professor".

I had about 120 students in my lecture series and had 3 TAs working for me.

I would never refer to myself as Professor, but it seems like a legitimate title for Prof. Obama.

[undeterred]

20. Yes, and I taught at the college level with a masters degree

but there aint no way you're teaching at the University of Chicago Law School without an impressive Law School Degree, a few published papers, and some experience.

[Leopolds Ghost]

92. Which Obama had, as the first African-American editor of Harvard Law Review n/t

[woolldog]

41. n/t

[dailykoff]

9. She's not leaving until she's kicked a hole in Obama's campaign

or until she gets thrown overboard by her own party.

Hmm, what will it be? Let's ask Governor Richardson and Senators Kerry, Kennedy, and Leahy if they might know!

:rofl:

[cliffordu]

10. Heave ho!

[dailykoff]

11. ker-plunk!

:rofl:

[ikojo]

48. Maybe she's waiting for McSame to offer her the

vp slot on the Republican ticket. Given McSame's age and previous health problems (skin cancer) the chances of Clinton to become president would be statistically greater as the Republican she really is than as the DINO she's playing right now.

[dailykoff]

49. I wouldn't fault her for taking it.

She could run more honestly as Republican and to be honest, McCain could pick far worse veeps, like Jebster, and he probably will.

[juajen]

12. Ok, I am going to post this, then leave because I do not liike

to fight. The paragraph states, "From 1992 until his election to the U. S. Senate in 2004, Barack Obama served as a professor in the Law School."

He was an associate at a law firm for three years before that. I have never heard of an associate becoming a Professor at a Law School after serving as an Associate for three years. From reading his biography, this is the only experience he had in his field. Something is fishy.

If he worked in Constitutional Law for that law firm, that would certainly qualify him to be a Lecturer, but not a Professor. Come on guys, use your head.

BTW, I know Law Firms, having worked in some major law offices for over 30 years, and after showing many associates the ropes. For any of you who are not familiar with law firms, an associate is like an intern in a hospital. They have their degree, but have to put it in practice. They are required to bill a lot of hours, so he would not have been able to do any community work at the same time he was an associate.

[dailykoff]

15. Read what the school said. He turned down a full-time teaching job

so technically he's a senior lecturer, but it seems they consider his status equivalent to that of a full-timer, so they're calling him a professor, and they're the ones assigning the titles.
:shrug:

[EFerrari]

16. The University is backing him up. Use whatever head you have available to you.

[sandnsea]

23. Stunning, isn't it

I am just flummoxed by these otherwise intelligent people allowing themselves to be bamboozled by this woman.

[EFerrari]

30. It's baffling. I understand raising the question. But denying the result?

That's just nuts.

[Tarheel_Dem]

36. it's all that running and ducking sniper fire...

and sitting on kevlar to protect their brains.

[EFerrari]

43. "You go to war with the brain you have."

:rofl:

[Tarheel_Dem]

47. LMAO.....

It's sad, but they've gone in, completely unarmed. :rofl:

[MH1]

53. "sitting on kevlar to protect their brains."

:rofl:

[merh]

17. LOL - not necessarily so

He then attended Harvard Law School, graduated magna cum laude, and served as the first African-American president of the Harvard Law Review. After law school, he worked as a community organizer and a civil rights lawyer in Chicago. He also taught at the University of Chicago Law School as a senior lecturer specializing in constitutional law.

He was accomplished when he was graduated.

If you have worked in a law firm for 30 years you know that law firms like to hire the best, they love shiney new resumes and the top achievers in their classes. If they have that something special, they give them more latitude. You may not see it, but many who have come in contact with Obama or who hear him speak or who know him say he has "it". "It" is something you can't manufacture or bottle, it is what "it" is.

You can't be trying to say the law school is telling lies for him, that's not what you are trying to say, is it?

[woolldog]

46. stop spreading your lies juajen

As I told you in the other thread on this issue, my constitutional law professor in law school never practiced law at all. He went straight from law school into a tenure track position at a top law school. Some of my classmates did the same thing. It's not unusual to practice law for a short time (as an associate, yes) and then apply for a professorship. That is the normal route. Law review, excellent grades, and having graduated from a top law school is what's important, not how many years you've practiced.

My brother practiced law for 6 years before becoming a law professor.

[roguevalley]

85. fishy? What is there about what the university said that you guys can't

get? Who do we believe? Anonymous people posting shit on the internet or the university?

[Leopolds Ghost]

93. Only experience in his field? He was editor of the Harvard Law Review... a position that qualifies

you to work as a SCOTUS Clerk... as his bosses said in interviews... one of the highest honors in the justice system.

The fact that he didn't become a high-powered attorney, assistant DA or SCOTUS Clerk for one of the liberal justices... he TURNED DOWN such positions to teach and do community work... is impressive.

[fujiyama]

107. You gotta remember he was also President of the Harvard Law Review

That's a huge positions and holds incredible sway and would count for the sort of experience many years at any firm wouldn't necessarily match. Plus, I'm sure the history making aspect helped.

Also, the key thing is that U of C is saying that Senior Lecturer = Adjunct Professor, just not full time or tenor track.

[grantcart]

19. great find

[AZ Criminal JD]

29. He was the only editor of the Harvard Law Review never to write a article

Or to publish a law journal Note. That says it all.

[EFerrari]

33. LOL

[Lucinda]

37. Do you have a link for that?

I hadn't heard that...

[EFerrari]

42. The link is in the OP.

:eyes:

[Lucinda]

52. Can you read? I asked for a link for the comment in post 29.

:eyes:

[AZ Criminal JD]

56. A link for a negative??

If you think he has published articles in the Harvard Law Review or similar legal journals it should be very easy to link to those.

[Lucinda]

58. If there were a news report saying he hadn't, that would also be linkable.

Which is what I asked for.

[AZ Criminal JD]

60. I am in the field and I know he hasn't

But don't take my word for it as I'm sure you don't. I'm sure there are Obama lawyers and law students who could prove me wrong in about 20 seconds if I was.

[roguevalley]

87. in the field? what field. and if this is true, there is a link somewhere.

provide it.

[AZ Criminal JD]

104. What in the world are you talking about?

If Obama had any legal articles his supporters on this board could bring them out in 20 seconds or less using Westlaw.

[EFerrari]

65. Can you read? The University backed him up.

When I taught at Berkeley I usually took the administration's word for my rank. They signed my checks so they should know.

lol

[Lucinda]

68. I'm assuming NO is the answer since this post

also doesn't address my asking about a link regarding the HLR.

Have a lovely day.

[EFerrari]

69. The link is in the OP. If you want to ignore the granting authority

on your quixotic binge, please don't let me stop you.

This thread has been an education in itself.

[VolcanoJen]

74. I'm getting dizzy.

What in the hell, has Hillary actually reached the level of papal infallibility or something?

:crazy:

[Lucinda]

96. What part of the OP link said he didn't publish when he was HLR?

[roguevalley]

86. sad. so sad. you can't stand an accomplished black man can you.

[LisaL]

51. So the school says his title is equivalent to that of professor?

It doesn't really make much sense to me.
It was not tenure-track and not full time.

[Lucinda]

54. No. They tried to help, but they did not say its the same.

They say he served as a professor, which anyone who teaches a college course does. But it's not the same, which is why the school lists the professors under the faculty listing and then lists the Senior Lecturers in another category. It's not the same thing.

If my fellas kid comes over and skins his knee, I can clean the wound, put on an antiseptic, and bandage it, but that doesn't make me a nurse. I just served as one. If I don't have the full training, experience, or perform all the same functions, even if I do a good job at part of the duties, I still wouldnt be a nurse.

[RichardRay]

55. So Eisenhower wasn't 'really' the Supreme Allied Commander?

Dwight David Eisenhower, born David Dwight Eisenhower (October 14, 1890 – March 28, 1969), nicknamed "Ike", was a General of the Army (five star general) in the United States Army and U.S. politician, who served as the thirty-fourth President of the United States (1953–1961). During the Second World War, he served as Supreme Commander of the Allied forces in Europe, with responsibility for planning and supervising the successful invasion of France and Germany in 1944-45. In 1951, he became the first supreme commander of NATO.

Dwight D. Eisenhower

According you your analysis, Ike wasn't really the president. Likewise, he was a general of the army (5-star), but he wasn't really the Supreme Allied Commander, and yet, somehow, he was really the supreme commander of NATO?

JFK wasn't really president from 1960 to 1963?
JFK

Tenzin Gyatso isn't really the Dalai Lama?
Dalai Lama

I don't think anything anyone is going to say will change your contentions, but what's so in the world is pretty clear: the prestigious law school where he taught says he has the right to use the title, so I'll go along with that.

[Lucinda]

57. Your examples aren't relevant. Those factors are inclusive to who those men

are/were.
They did not say Obama was a professor. Because he wasn't. They said he served as one.

In academics "served as" is related to "perform the duties of". He performed some of the duties of a professor. And he evidently did it quite well because they wanted him to continue on the path.

In your examples the Dalai Lama is both a man AND the Dalai Lama. JFK and Eisenhower both WERE appointed and elected servants of this country, as well as individuals.

Obama was not a professor, he performed the duties of one.

[merh]

61. You continue to overlook the fact that the law school establishes his status

It is their place and just because you don't like it doesn't mean there is some conspiracy or that it is inaccurate. And you seem to overlook this part of the press release.

Several times during his 12 years as a professor in the Law School, Obama was invited to join the faculty in a full-time tenure-track position, but he declined.

Now, if Obama went to another school and claimed to be a professor at this one, all he would have to do is give them this press release because that is the school's position. You may not like it, you may even be jealous of it because where you taught they didn't give you this consideration, but that is how it is.

And please provide me a links to Obama's resume or bio where he doesn't qualify himself as a senior lecturer?

I'd really like to see what has put the bee in your bonnet. The way you carry on it appears it is personal with you, as if you feel slighted.

[Lucinda]

66. They established his status here---> "served as a professor in the Law School"

The other reference refers to that context.
Do you teach college? I did. There is a difference.

[merh]

70. They are one in the same.

And I am so sorry that the college you taught at didn't give you the status you seem so envious of.

I ask again, please provide me with something that reflects that Obama's official resumes don't make the "senior lecturer" distinctions, provide something that supports your negative efforts.

[EFerrari]

71. Right about now, I'm feeling bad for your students.

:rofl:

[VolcanoJen]

75. No shit

Hopefully, the poster is not a math "professor."

[RichardRay]

63. You argue from two pespectives and then equate them.

One of your arguments is semantic based on the useage of the term 'served'. The other is a question of authority to estabish. I demonstrated that the term serve means exactly what it means - whatever that is. It's also clear that the U of C says he was a professor, and they have the right and authority to establish that. As I noted, I don't really expect you to change your stance on this, but holding to it with diehard tenacity doesn't come any closer to making it true.

[Lucinda]

64. Where do they say he was a Professor? You won't find it because they don't.

They do not say Obama was a Professor of Con Law. They say he served as a professor. They made that distinction for a specific reason.

[Usrename]

106. I don't get the distinction that you are trying to make.

The school where he lectured considers him to be a professor. What other fact would make him NOT be a professor?

Isn't this what is called a distinction without a difference?

My guess is that you think it is correct to say he served for 12 years as a professor, but it's not correct to say he was a professor for 12 years. I don't get it. What's your point?

[roguevalley]

88. accomplished black men sure bother some people.

[Lucinda]

95. What has that got to do with Lecturer vs Professor?

Wouldn't matter who said it. It's not the same. Funny how some of you throw racism around when you have nothing else to say.

[Forkboy]

59. This thread is hilarious. Which one is the cult again?

I swear, if Jesus walked on water people here would claim it's because he can't swim.

[VolcanoJen]

77. Clinton has reached the level of Papal Infallibility

I think you can find the special dispensation on the HillHub. :-)

[David Zephyr]

62. This story deserves attention. Kicking it up to clear up, yet another lie.

K&R.

[izzybeans]

72. This thread reminds me of all the troll sites that were

debating the validity of Andy Stephenson's diagnosis and treatment.

They can't possibly believe they know better, so their concern must be something less than sincere. Just a naked attempt to kneecap Obama.

[grantcart]

78. gee there was one fellow that was monkeying around with 'lecturer' thing but can't find this thread.

[AZBlue]

80. Rove and Bush must be so proud of their little Hillary. She's learned well from them.

What a piece of shit.

[Orangepeel]

89. This is such a SILLY thing to use against him

it's like criticizing him for saying he is 6' 1" tall, when he is really only 6' 3/4".

[Swamp Rat]

91. BS propaganda helps Obama.

HAHA! :D

[grantcart]

98. needs more exposure so we give it a kick

[DerekJ]

99. Did she ever say anything about Obama that turned out to be right?

[Yael]

101. "The Sun-Times reported"

Out of curiosity -- was this the same Taylor-Marsh-wanna-be hack that said John Edwards was going to endorse HRC because Elizabeth was having a mental breakdown over the fact that Obama took John's spot as the "man" in the race?