Why is the Obama camp running scared with premature calls for Clinton to quit?

[Seabiscuit]

What are they afraid of?

That with a stunning victory in Pennsylvania Clinton will recapture "momentum" headlines?

That with the ballyhoo in the MSM about her newfound "momentum" she'll go on to do better than expected in the remaining states between April 22 and June 5?

That she'll thus close the gap in pledged delegates, and take the lead in the popular vote by June 5?

That with only a narrow lead in pledged delegates, and trailing in the popular vote and having to begrudgingly cede "momentum" to Clinton, the Obama camp will be unable to sway enough Superdelegates to win the nomination at the Convention?

You bet they're afraid. They're very afraid.

Because calling on the other team to quit in the 7th inning of a ballgame where one leads by a score of 10-9 is an act of cowardice, motivated by fear.

Remember the Red Sox were down 3 game to zip in the 2004 Penant game against the mighty Yankees. And they won it 4-3 in 7 games.

Hillary "David Ortiz" is alive and swinging for the fences, folks, so settle down and pass the popcorn!

:popcorn:

[The Wielding Truth]

1. They are afraid of the harm her actions are doing to our party.

[Faygo Kid]

11. Exactly. There are other races - House, Senate, states too.

Hillary may not give a rip about the impact her actions are having on the party, but some of us do.

[PurityOfEssence]

15. Ah, altruism! No wonder his detractors are such a scurrilous lot.

Those who haven't seen the light are despicable curs: they slink from shadow to shadow hurling barbs of hatred because they simply can't feel the true, airy warmth of the faithful.

The privilege of the self-appointed morally superior is a tiresome and nasty thing. What causes inconsistent acts is the mental discord that comes from believing contradictory things: how can the voice of progressive oneness be such a calculating corporatist? How can a steadfast champion be such a cautious ultra-moderate? How can a uniter hang out with so many dividers?

It's traditional for people who are ahead at the moment to attempt to sit on the ball and run out the clock; it's no different from Florida in '00.

Sure, some truly care about fractiousness in the party, but it's about winning, and to whitewash that is just another fulsome example of the sanctimoniousness of the found.

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[joshcryer]

30. Tee hee, excellent post.

[spooky3]

91. given the closeness of the current and projected popular vote, it seems a bit strange

that an equal # of altruists aren't calling for Obama to drop out, or that a coin be flipped.

[Drunken Irishman]

108. If Obama were down almost 200 in pledged delegates, I'd be calling for him to drop out.

However, popular vote is trash, since it does not count caucus states.

Sorry, Clinton is tooooast.

:)

[spooky3]

110. That's hypothetical--and would be undemocratic. Further, FL and MI delegates

may yet be seated. That is up to a committee that has yet to meet.

You might want to bone up on the facts on the delegate counts if FL and MI delegates are seated, which I linked in another post--and those calculations DO take into account extrapolation of popular votes based on caucuses.

Here's a link to it:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=5305529&mesg_id=5308938

The delegate counts and popular vote (counting FL and MI, and taking into account reasonable projections of votes in upcoming states) are much closer than many seem to think. Since these #s are so close, it is equally silly to call for Clinton to drop out as it is for Obama to drop out--and the fact that there seem to be an unequal # of such calls suggests that harm to the party is not the motivating factor behind the calls.

[Drunken Irishman]

111. haha

Obama wasn't even on the ballot in Michigan, so how can you count the popular vote there?

You crack me up. Face it, Clinton is DONE. She can fight, but it doesn't change the fact she's out of it.

And the numbers you site do not, in fact, take out the popular vote on caucuses. The popular vote for caucuses is not known, since they're broken down into state delegate votes.

[spooky3]

112. I didn't say they "take out" the popular vote on caucuses. I said they

extrapolate the popular vote from the caucuses. Look it up.

And good night.

[Drunken Irishman]

116. Which popular vote?

And I don't trust "estimating". Face it, popular vote should not count. It's up to the delegates and Obama is going to win that one.

[Zhade]

115. No, they won't be seated. Your dream is just that.

Keep wishing instead of dealing with reality, though, if it keeps you happy.

[FogerRox]

164. It was ove ron Feb 4th

I adopted Death in the family expert Elizabeth Kubler-Ross's 5 stages of grief:

Denial - Wow, how long did it take for Hillary to even admit she had a problem! At this point, her supporters admit that she is behind, but still think she has a chance. They are still in denial, thinking that somehow the superdelegates will hand it to her, when she's lost the contest. But, it's a much milder level of denial that it was back in January and February.

Anger - Well, there's plenty of that all around. This seems to be the stage that most of them in right now. That's why they are so negative. Can't wait until they are mostly out of this stage myself.

Bargaining - We saw that in the "offer" to let Obama be her VP. They tried. Once it's clearer to them that the game is over, I would expect more bargaining to occur. They can make things more difficult for the Dems and Obama. Let's hope it's more like bargaining and less like blackmail.

Depression - We haven't seen this yet, have we? When we get there, the air will just go out of the balloon. That's when Hillary will give up. Her suppporters will go quiet. This is bound to happen once the primaries are over. Her supporters may still feel they can't support Obama at this stage, but they will have stopped fighting him.

Acceptance - I am sure by the fall, most will have made it to this stage. They'll vote Democratic. Hillary's supporters are all good Democrats. They will help the party

.

[SwampG8r]

94. spoken

like a true "self appointed morally superior"
di you notice by any chances
you are still losing?
that you need 60% or better in every race til the convention?

get out now hillary stop hurting the party

[PurityOfEssence]

142. You don't know what you're talking about

You premise your math on the concept that she'd have to have a majority of pledged delegates to win. That's not how it works. If he doesn't have 2025 on a first ballot, the rules say that the slate's wiped clean and they are free to seek votes as they please.

They're called "rules", and they're not just technicalities: they allow people the ability to reconsider, thus delegates from early states have a chance to reevaluate their choice in light of subsequent developments.

Regardless, having a lead in pledged delegates doesn't entitle one to the nomination. Everyone knew the rules when this started, and there's no change here. The ones who want to change the rules are the supporters of the current front-runner, who sanctimoniously claim the right of the prize out of some kind of privilege.

The messes in Michigan and Florida just make it all much more of a mess, and that's a drag.

Whether the rules are fair or representative or not is immaterial; they were the rules in place that everyone's been wrestling with from the beginning.

Also, keep the binary thinking under control; I'm not a supporter of Hillary Clinton and never have been. I'm pretty fed up with both of them, but want us to figure out who the most electable one is and put that one in the driver's seat. The reason I give Obama and his supporters more of a hard time is that their raging and recklessness is foolhardy to a fatal degree, and if the nominee, I hope these people will address reality, get off their collective high horses and deal with things as they actually are. This race is VERY loseable, and the Obama camp seems hell-bent on pissing everybody off.

[RestoreGore]

42. Democracy HURTS this party?

Since when did Democrats turn into Republican brownshirts wanting to shut votes down? If neither of them can get the required delegates through the primaries what does it hurt to let people vote? What bs.

[kwenu]

100. Will you accept the will of the majority of voters after the primaries are over as final?

[RestoreGore]

123. I unlike some here believe in Democracy.Will you if it's Clinton?

[kwenu]

125. The answer for me is absolutely yes but your answer is a non-answer. I'd like a yes or no.

Otherwise you're just BS-ing.

[RestoreGore]

134. Y E S

[FogerRox]

165. I will vote for the DEM Nominee.

[Seabiscuit]

45. B.S. excuse for cowardice.

[readmoreoften]

88. The fact that Obama supporters have alienated every other candidate's supporters with their calls

for everyone to 'drop out' has done the party far more damage than Clinton staying in will do. Why would a candidate drop out? Frankly I wish Edwards didn't drop out. What's destroying this party is (1) centrism and cowardly positions, and (2) both sides throwing right-wing talking points around.

[OzarkDem]

2. They know he's going to lose the next few primairies

In big states that need to vote D in the GE, and he's going to lose to Clinton.

Its ridiculous for him to call on Clinton to get out of the race when she's on the verge of winning PA, IL and possibly even NC.

[bowens43]

4. keep dreamin. hillary is through.

[RaleighNCDUer]

9. Confused, are you?

Obama won IL nearly 2 months ago. And no way Hillary is going to win NC. Even PA may be closer than expected, now that Casey's come out for Obama.

Try to keep up.

[OzarkDem]

23. Typo, IN

I know, I know, Obama supporters thought Ohio would be close also, but it wasn't meant to be. He struggles in states with large populations where voters are experiencing economic problems, job losses, etc. I'm not sure how he can fix that, but suspect his has to do with his lack of experience and weak record on jobs, etc.

[Joe the Revelator]

35. We're ready to stop enabling the Clinton fantasy world, and start focusing on McCain...

If you didn't notice he took the lead last week, while we're sitting her having a civil war.

[VolcanoJen]

43. When did Obama call for Clinton to get out of the race?

Link?

Here's a link:

http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0308/The_long_haul.html

Talking to reporters in Johnstown, Pa., Saturday, Barack Obama said Hillary Clinton “can run as long as she wants.”

“She should be able to compete, and her supporters should be able to support her as long as they are willing or able,” Obama said.

His comments contradicted those Friday by Sen. Patrick Leahy (D-Vt.) that appeared intended to nudge Clinton out of the race.

Obama said the notion that the party is divided is “somewhat overstated.” But he said Democrats must pivot quickly to the general election after the primary contests end in June.

[SwampG8r]

97. yup

i saw it
helooks like he knows how futile her run now is
kind of halfway between sad and happy
sad shes exposed her true character to the people
happy to watch her blow apart and lose the clinton control on what was once our party



go obama

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bensthename]

5. Obama yesterday seems cool with how ever long it goes.

[Muttocracy]

6. because we're spending so much money and blood while McCain laughs? nt

[Seabiscuit]

46. Another B.S. excuse for cowardice.

[The Wielding Truth]

71. It's not all in the race, Seabiscuit. We have to govern.

[Seabiscuit]

77. Agreed. I'm just addressing the howling from the Obama camp about wanting Hillary to quit

prematurely when the race is so tight that NEITHER candidate can win the nomination on pledged delegates alone, meaning it's going to be decided by Superdelegates at the Convention, like it or not, and that apparently scares the bejesus out of the Obama camp whiners.

I'd like to see some more debates where the candidates address the real issues affecting this country instead of all the media crap about personal issues.

[spooky3]

82. It seems fitting that *Seabiscuit* should be tiring of the *horse race* coverage

:-)

Excellent OP and replies.

[The Wielding Truth]

90. I really don't mind the process ,but HIll has not been fighting

in a manner becoming and it is making us all look like schoolyard scrappers while McCain is gaining support as a "calm moderate". You how insane this is becoming.

She should resume her early demeanor as a kind, but scrappy leader. She should stick to the issues and fight for me.

I don't want to half to defend her mis-recollections and comments on Barack that I know she knows are coyly misleading.

If she gets her act together she will not fight for the delegate votes that she agreed not to take before. She is putting herself above the rules. Tell me how that makes her better than *.

I would like her to be a big part of the next administration. We need her, but we don't need this silly below the belt and fantasy stuff she has been putting out there.

Honestly, if she really wanted to turn things around she would change her tune and she would support
the person who inspires this generation and the world. Mr. Barack Obama. He is not everything and he needs her and we need her.

[surfermaw]

7. That is what I am wondering

Listening to Clinton speech for over an hour,he was hitting on the Bush administration, one stab at obama without a mention of his name, that I can remember. Send him around the nation and we will wing the election hands down. he made 7 stops in 1 day...the one I went to had 1,400 in the building, some on the outside, and some that left for home when they found the building full, We were notified on Thursday around 5:30 of the place and time he would be in our area, and a republican strong hold at that.

You need to go see the candidates if you can, what you see on T.V and hear from the candidates is nothing like what you hear and see when you see them in person.

[philk17088]

78. He?

So Bill is a candidate? Just who are you really voting for?

[2rth2pwr]

8. They are terrified that this one will slip right through their fingers.

Please quit! Stop, if Obama doesn't win there's gonna be.....trouble.

pretty please?

[DemGa]

10. They do seem intent on stopping the voting/will of the people

I say stay on this fraud until his campaign implodes. The man is an arrogant charlatan - it would be foolish to let him walk away with anything.

[FatDave]

120. ...said the person whose candidate can only win by superdelegates oveturning the will of the people.

[Seabiscuit]

135. What's wrong with you people? You know perfectly well that NEITHER candidate

can win without the "superdelegates overturning the will of the people", as you put it.

How would you like it if Hillary supporters started posting a dozen or more posts a day in this forum demanding that Obama drop out because he "can only win by superdelegates overturning the will of the people"?

You'd undoubtedly respond exactly the way I'm responding to you in this post.

The superdelegate system has been in place since 1984, like it or not. It's been part of the Democratic Party's nomination process for two dozen years, like it or not. And *your* candidate is going to be courting the superdelegates just as fervently as their candidate because failure to do so would amount to a concession.

I refer to "your" candidate and "their" candidate because "my" candidate was John Edwards.

[FatDave]

166. Please.

You're smart enough to see the difference between superdelegates backing the candidate with the lead in pledged delegates vs. backing the candidate losing in pledged delegates. That's where the overturning part comes in. Please don't pretend like we're stupid, because neither of us is.

The only hope Hillary has of catching up in pledged delegates is to win every remaining state with more than 60% of the vote. Every remaining state, including North Carolina and Oregon. That's not going to happen. Therefore, after all the primaries, Obama will have more pledged delegates, and very likely a greater number of votes as well. Yes, he will still need superdelegates to put him over the 2024 magic number. But for superdelegates to back the person who won the majority of pledged delegates and the popular vote is perfectly legitimate. There is no overturning of the will of the people in that scenario, see? The superdelegates would actually be reflecting the will of the people.

Now, if Obama comes out of the primaries with the lead in popular vote and pledged delegates, yet the superdelegates back Clinton to put her over the top, then that's a problem. Because the voters had spoken one way and the superdelegates defied them. This is really really simple shit. Why do I have to spell it out for you? You think I don't understand the situation and you can just say "they both need superdelegates"? Sheesh.

And lastly. Yes, if Obama was in a position where there was no way he could win the pledged delegate race, I would be disappointed but realistic. If Obama needed to get 60%+ in every remaining race, and it was obvious he couldn't do it, I would accept reality. I sure as hell wouldn't be calling for the superdelegates to back the loser of the primaries.

Yeah, I supported Edwards too. Voted for him in my Iowa caucus in fact. Then he dropped out, and I started supporting somebody else. But I have the intellectual honesty to admit that I'm now supporting somebody else. Don't sit and make ridiculous pro-Clinton arguments and pretend like you don't have a horse in this race because you once supported Edwards.

[ecdab]

12. This isn't a baseball game. Hillary and Obama play for the same team

and Hillary is causing the team harm. She can continue to cause the team harm if she isn't turned from that path. I don't fear that Hillary will win the primary, I fear that she will make the General Election more difficult to win if she and her inner circle continue to heap praise on McCain, create massive infighting in Michigan and Florida with her bogus email campaign and distorted media appearances, and lord knows what she will come up with next. I've got no problem with her staying in the race - if she doesn't feed the Republicans and divide the Democrats in lasting ways, but there is absolutely no reason to believe she will do that. That's a long way of saying I fear that Hillary has lost touch with the what the goals of the Democratic Party are.

[nichomachus]

22. Hillary is the Alex Rodriguez of the Democratic Party n/t

[DemocratSinceBirth]

27. Barack Obama Might Become The Marv Levy Of The Democratic Party

Maybe you will figure it out...Maybe you won't...

[Seabiscuit]

48. Wake up. It doesn't become a team until the Convention is over.

To go back to the baseball analogy, this is the Pennant Series to see who gets to go to the World Series (General Election) representing the American League (the Democratic Party) against the Republican Party's nominee.

Hillary isn't causing anyone any harm by staying in the race and letting democracy play itself out by giving the last 8 states + Guam and Puerto Rico a chance to vote and have their voices heard, then letting all voices be heard at the Convention.

Once it's all over in August, hopefully, if she wins, the Obama camp won't be the sore losers they are today, and will join the team to go against McCain.

[ecdab]

66. The isn't about winning some trophy, this about correcting the

course of a nation, so please spare me the wake up call. Anybody that thinks this is a game or that fan-boyish rooting interests have a place in it most assuredly should not be calling for others to wake up.

What Hillary has done in terms of giving the McCain camp tools to use in the General Election and further damaging the Democratic Party in Florida and Michigan is causing harm. I'll be more than happy to see Hillary run the race to it's conclusion if she can manage to stop feeding the Republicans and targeting the chance of the Democrats.

I genuinely admire much of what Hillary has done, but at this moment in time she is little more than an obstacle in the path of setting this country on a better course. She can not win without breaking the Democratic Party, and thus she can not win. All she can do while she stays in the race in work up her die hard supporters into a frenzy against the party and provide aid to the Republicans. You may not be willing to see that - but it is fairly clear if you are willing to look.

[Seabiscuit]

72. I didn't say I "think it's a game", did I?

I merely made an apt analogy to baseball because it's the Obama camp that keeps howling that they want "game over" before Pennsylvania.

Hillary hasn't caused the Dems any harm. All this "breaking the Democratic party" by staying in a very tight race crap is just that: crap. The Obama camp is scared shitless because he was never vetted by the media until very recently, and the shit coming out of his closet is the stuff nightmares are made of. That closet of his must be mighty full of scary stuff because he's afraid that the longer this primary season lasts, the more that closet's going to be exposed for what it contains.

Better now than in the GE. Giving him a free ride into the GE will undoubtedly take us all down by the time November comes around. Because if you think the media's been a bit rough on him now, you ain't seen nothin' yet. Nominate him and all hell will break lose when you combine Rove, the GOP, the 527's, Fox, the Limbaughs of hate radio, and the Tweety's and Blitkriegs of the MSM.

[ecdab]

86. Praising McCain and inventing crap to stir-up trouble

for the Democrats in Florida and Michigan has nothing to do with Obama being vetted. Do you disagree? In fact it has nothing to do with Obama at all. So I'm not sure how we got to the topic of Obama being vetted or Obama getting a free ride. I'm certainly not asking for Hillary to drop out, I'm saying she should be forced out if she continues to create problems for the Democrats and solutions for the Republicans. There is far too much at stake to treat this like a game or to treat this process like a sports tournament. This is the future of my children and my country, not a tournament.

What do you think the African American community will make of Obama winning the delegate count and the popular vote and being forced out by white party elites because he attended a black church? What do you honestly think that will do to the party? That is really Hillary's only path to the nomination at this point. Do you want it bad enough to walk down that road? It's a road that will break the Democratic Party for a very long time. I know I would be mortified if the Democratic Party forced Obama to the side lines because he is a part of slightly different culture than main stream white America - but a culture that has supported the Democratic Party tooth and nail for decades. Think about it. Think about how the argument over Obama's church is perceived in the African American community. The Hillary campaign has become about cutting off the Democratic Party's nose to spite the Democratic Party's face, it can do nothing else.

You didn't say it was a game, but you are most certainly treating it like it is - and one of no consequence as well.

I'm sure you are a fine Democrat, but I think you may have lost sight of the big picture in your zeal to see your candidate win one for you.

[Seabiscuit]

101. Hillary is not "my candidate". I'm still an Edwardian.

But I think the "sore winner" stance taken by the Obama camp is even worse than the "sore loser" stance they took after Hillary clobbered him in Ohio.

The people who post here daily about wanting Hillary to drop out are the same bunch that called for Edwards to drop out.

It's pathetic, and it's sickening, and it's thoroughly undemocratic.

[ecdab]

118. Please explain what you are calling a "sore winner" stance.

I'm certainly calling for Hillary to be removed if she continues to, as I said before, create problems for the Democrats and solutions for the Republicans. If she can manage to not do those things, heck, she can stay in as long as she wants as far as I'm concerned. As for your generalization about the people doing what I am doing being the same people that called for Edwards to drop out - it's just that, a generalization. I certainly never called for Edwards to drop out and was saddened when he did. I'm a North Carolinian that worked hard for Edwards during his 1998 Senate run and his 2004 Presidential run. I didn't even start backing Obama this year until after Edwards dropped out. So maybe the broad brush you are using is painting more than a bit over the lines.

If you think it is pathetic, sickening and thoroughly undemocratic to call for Hillary to be forced out of the Democratic primary process if she continues to hurt the Democratic Party in the upcoming election - well, we are going to have to agree to disagree. But I would also have to ask you why you thought that - because I certainly don't understand how you could reach that opinion.

[Seabiscuit]

127. If you missed all the posts from the Obama supporters after the Ohio primary,

then you weren't paying attention, or you simply weren't around.

[ecdab]

132. oh seabiscuit, you aren't one of those people that lets a few posters

on the internet shape your opinion of an entire campaign - are you? It would be a shame if you were and, I apologize for wasting your time and mine trying to have a serious discussion with you if that is the case.

[Seabiscuit]

136. Apology accepted.

I don't regard this as a serious discussion. Your assertions and premises are so antithetical to my understanding of what's going on I see no point in taking any of it seriously.

[ecdab]

139. Ooooookay, so you are not a Hillary supporter, you are here to

spread your distaste for Obama, but are unwilling to have a serious conversation with anybody that disagrees with you. Hmmmmmm. What is it that you hope to accomplish here exactly?

[Seabiscuit]

141. I'm here to complain about the kind of spam I see in this forum. Seeing a dozen threads a day

calling for some candidate to drop out is something that I find incredibly immature, arrogant, rude, and appalling.

The same people who did it to John Edwards are the ones who are doing it to Hillary. They happen to be Obama supporters. No other support group has been plastering this forum with threads demanding that Obama drop out. Not ever.

[ecdab]

143. Then I would suggest addressing the various reasons people

are calling for Hillary to be removed and/or step down, as opposed to trying to lump all that do so into one large group and paint them with a broad bush - some people might find that to be rude, immature, and arrogant as well. I couldn't help but notice you did everything except address the reasons why I think Hillary should be removed if she doesn't stop helping the Republicans and hurting the Democrats, or what the consequences of turning on the black voters in America would be.

And really - who's going to call for the front runner to drop out. They would look fairly silly and would be taken to task fairly easily. If you think that if Hillary had the lead and Obama was praising McCain and stirring up trouble in Michigan and Florida that numerous people wouldn't be calling for him to leave - you are not looking at this in any sort of honest perspective. Heck, if Edwards had the lead and Obama was pulling the stunts that Hillary is it would be the Edwards crowd calling for him to leave (and I'd be right there with them).

I will ask one more time (though I am doubting I get an answer that addresses the question at this point) - why do think it is rude, immature, arrogant, and appalling to call for Hillary to be removed if she can not stop creating solutions for the Republicans and problems for the Democrats? Why?

[Seabiscuit]

144. You're beginning to just make a pest of yourself.

I see nothing in your post worth responding to.

So this conversation is over.

Welcome to my ignore button.

[ecdab]

145. Grand, that is your response to a question you didn't want to answer.

IS this what DU has come to - sad.

[Ino]

149. I don't recall posts urging Edwards to drop out

But I do recall seeing this video of Clinton & Edwards conspiring to cut candidates from debates (55 seconds in)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=o-WsvQhVmhc

For the record, I don't want Hilliary to drop out. I'm having a ball watching her self-destruct.

[ecdab]

153. Oh, seabiscuit just wants to complain and disrupt at this point in time

- there were a few posters on DU that called for Edwards to get out of the race prior to South Carolina, the biscuit has yet to get over that. I was actually a fellow Edwards supporter at the time, and the biscuit just went off the handle with me for asking for an explanation of the position being taken in this thread.

"When good posters go bad" - it's a shame. Hopefully the biscuit will come around soon and stop this nonsense.

[CatnHat]

117. This primary is tame

compared to others in the past. The big difference here is the tightness in the race. Yes, the Obama crowd is scared that Clinton still has a chance, and they will say/do anything to distort anything that Clinton says/does; while Obama "hides" behind his surrogates and his pastor and tries like hell to stay above the fray. Obama must really think that ALL voters are like his fans, they are not. To Obama and his supporters, quit disenfranchising voters right to vote--there are approx. ten more states to go; and the fact that Obama couldn't care less about FL and MI is definitely going against the democratic process. So before you start preaching to others about the goals of democratic party, you might want to make damn sure all Obama's ducks are in a row. Go Hillary--keep up the fight for ALL voters who deserve to have their voices heard.

[niceypoo]

13. Roughly half the party supports her...

Let them fight it out.

Obama seems fine with it. McCain is toast no matter what.

[yewberry]

14. Uh, you do know Clinton is a Yankees fan, right?

You're making this born & bred masshole's head hurt.

[Seabiscuit]

50. Picky, picky.

[RazBerryBeret]

16. If you've been watching the polls....

you'd see why. as the two of them are fighting amongst themselves McCain is gaining on BOTH of them. this may recede once a nominee is picked, but I hate seeing him leading or barely trailing in the polls.

and as for your ballgame analogy. If the losing team decided to play dirty and win no matter what, personal fouls, even injuring the other team...then the game would be called by the refs. There are no refs in this game. I'd be willing to say "go at it"...but it will end the end only hurt us.

[Seabiscuit]

79. Apparently you don't know baseball.

If either team "plays dirty" first the player or players "playing dirty" are ejected, then if the refs catch a manager "playing dirty", they eject the manager. All one at a time. The refs have no power to "call the game".

[RazBerryBeret]

93. OK, OK....

I don't know baseball....
or football...

or...ok, never mind...

I do know refs call personal fouls or flag a play in football...
or the penalty box in hockey...maybe THAT's what we need!

[EFerrari]

17. The thing about Obama that I really like is that he's a long distance runner.

Clinton, on the other hand, can't even plan for the whole primary season.

Obama isn't the one running scared, isn't the one the media is asking out loud to step down, isn't the one the party is taking to task.

[NashVegas]

18. My Belief - Take It With a Grain of Salt

If Clinton stays in the race and overtakes Obama (as slim a chance as there is), the party will be forced to drop all pretense that it's the voters who choose the candidate. That would cause some trouble.

[EFerrari]

25. I agree and also believe that at this moment there is a monumental struggle

in the party to maintain the appearance of caring how the voters vote.

[NashVegas]

133. On the Bright Side

I believe this will work out in favor for the candidate you're supporting.

In the longer term, if the press members in those MSM outlets that purport to present balanced coverage decide McCain and his tribe are the more powerful ones to court, kiss it goodbye.

[EFerrari]

154. Again, agree. Once you start following the power (and the money)

watching corporate media coverage is a completely different experience that is transparently theater.

That's not new. If you read Shakespeare, all the political plays are laced with metaphors that describe the theatrics of political life, for example.

[SwampG8r]

99. lol off topic

my wifes dad used to call her older sister crisco
i asked him why once
he said
cause she s fat in the can
lol

[nichomachus]

19. Yes, Pennsylvania will be Hillary's "surge"

And we'll hear endlessly about how "The surge is working."

[DemocratSinceBirth]

20. The Miami Heat Were Down 2-0 Against The Mavericks And Down By Fourteen With Seven Minutes To Go In

the third game of the 06 Finals and came back to win that game, the next three in a row and the series...


It's a long shot... The smart money is on Obama but she should play out the string...That's how we roll in America...

[Seabiscuit]

80. In politics it's called "democracy".

[helderheid]

21. What I'm afraid of is we're not focusing on beating McCain.

[EFerrari]

28. We still have some time but can't wait until JULY, that's for sure. n/t

[helderheid]

152. have you seen this?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Y395Tftgz0E

[BeyondGeography]

24. Hillary is the Yankees...heavily favored, big and slow

sits and waits for big-state home runs which she reels in by calling in past chits and cruising on her reputation while the other guy plays smarter and outmanages her.

[DiverDave]

29. Because she is tearing the party apart?

Face it, she cant win, and by NOT voting for the Democratic nominee, or outright voting for the god damned repuklicans, YOU and all those like you ensure 4 more years of these assholes.
Which is, I suspect, what you and yours have wanted all along.


Go back to the rnc and tell em they aint gonna win, not now and not in november.

[joshcryer]

32. She's not "tearing the party apart."

People like you are.

[my3boyz]

31. Obama has NEVER said she should get out! He said it was up

to her to decide when it was appropriate to get out.

[joshcryer]

33. The poster said, explicitly, "Obama camp." They are discussing posters here, and in his campaign...

...not Obama himself. So please pay attention. Many many people here are calling for her to drop out, calling Obama the presumptive nominee (even though the superdelegates clearly don't think so), and even his own endorsers are calling for her to drop out.

[Warren Stupidity]

36. Uh sorry but that is incorrect.

"the Obama camp will be unable to sway enough Superdelegates"

The OP clearly means 'the Obama campaign' by 'the Obama camp' not the blogbarian troglodytes here, unless of course you also think that us idiots and numbskulls at DU are in the business of swaying superdelegates.

[joshcryer]

47. Those who endorse Obama are part of his 'camp.'

[Warren Stupidity]

122. That would be your definition, not the OPs.

As I pointed out, the OP was using the term specifically to mean the Obama campaign. You, on the other hand, are clearly being dishonest.

[Warren Stupidity]

34. Do you have a link for any Obama campaign statement calling for Clinton to quit?

The noise is coming from outside his campaign. It would indeed be bad form for the front runner and presumptive nominee to be demanding that Clinton suspend her campaign. It is instead up to interested third parties to apply the pressure, to persuade Clinton to do the right thing. That is what is going on, and you are going to have to get used to it as the demands for her to withdraw are going to increase and get louder the longer she stubbornly continues her failed effort.

[Dogmudgeon]

37. Scared, dishonest and sadistic, or brainless. Pick one.

If Hillary is really as dead as they say she is, there is NO reason for them to act the way they do. They would spend their time attacking McCain instead of Hillary. They would be parsing McCain's every word for real lies instead of Hillary's for what they want to believe are lies. They would laugh off the DLC instead of gnashing their teeth over it, and go after the RNC. They would not turn against their friends over simple disagreement. And their super-bloggers wouldn't eject half of their membership in the name of ideological purity.

They would not spend hours upon hours online doing this, but actually work to get out the Democratic vote.

Nobody goes to those extremes when they are dealing with someone fated by the gods to defeat.

But they can't even finish her off -- "out of kindness, I suppose".

Since it can't be a rational thing, we are left with the prospect that most of the Obama team, including the liberal side of the Press, really are scared, or they are sadistic and lying about it, or they are completely stupid.

I prefer to think it's the first.

I think they know that Hillary has a very real chance of winning. She's 6% behind in delegates, 3% in popular vote, and only two of the coming states are trending strongly against her.

This isn't 5-1 in the bottom of the ninth, it's 27-24 in the third quarter. And Hillary is playing the dirtiest game of all -- she's depending on the voters, damn her lying ass.

Team Obama is scared. They put the tiger into the corner and now they don't know what to do with her.

--p!

[patrick t. cakes]

38. hes probably tired of running for president

with dead weight chained to his ankle.

[mmonk]

39. People in NC won't care squat what happens in Pa..

[ima_sinnic]

40. actually, this member of the "Obama camp" wants her to stay in as long as possible

... because with each passing day she reveals herself more and more as the self-centered, corporatist, disloyal, anti-Democrat humiliatingly "misspeaking" and acting more and more desperate and pathetic. I want her to stay in because I consider slow-motion train wrecks to be extremely fascinating and captivating. I can't take my eyes off them. I can only let my jaw drop in astonishment.

[Snarkoleptic]

41. Perhaps it's because she cannot win and is tearing the party apart.

Do the math and see for yourself. Click the link and page down.
Slide the arrows L or R to project outcome and delegates won in each of the remaining primaries.

Even in the absurd scenario where Hilllary wins all remaining contests by 10%, she's still 45 delegates behind Obama.
Keep in mind that she lags behind Obama in the national polls.

Her only hope is to beg SD's to undo the will of the people, which will split the party.
http://www.slate.com/id/2185278/
My message to Hillary's campaign is-

[Seabiscuit]

51. Or perhaps it's because the Obama camp is afraid Obama can't win and he's tearing the party apart

by calling for a premature end to the democratic primary procees.

[Snarkoleptic]

54. Didn't look at the delegate calculator, did you?

It's OK, it won't burn your eyes out.
Let's try it again, shall we.
http://www.slate.com/id/2185278/
Try reason and fact ...you might like it!

[Seabiscuit]

58. Bull. Neither candidate can reach the magic number and you know it.

It will come down to a fight over Superdelegates at the Convention, whether you like it or not.

You don't like it because it's easier to take the coward's way out by giving in to your fears.

[Snarkoleptic]

62. Who is ignoring the math and being the coward?

OK, I know you can't/won't do the math, so I'll do it for you.
If Hillary wins all remaining primarys with 55% of the vote, Obama would have 1668 delegates compared with Clinton's 1566.
(A 55% Clinton to 45% Obama win is a pipe dream, but I'll humor you.)
This far-fetched scenario would result in an Obama having a lead of 102 delegates.

So again, what does she do, beg the SD's to undo the will of the will of the voters?
She cannot win. McCain moves closer to winning the GE as Hillary greedily pushes her quixotic campaign.

To Clinton supporters, I say...

[Name removed]

73. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Seabiscuit]

137. I guess you whined to the mods and got my reply deleted. So I'll try again.

Your math is irrelevant, because as you know perfectly well, this primary is not going to be decided by who has the most pledged delegates going into the Convention. Because it's so close that neither candidate can possibly win the magic number of pledged delegates to seal the nomination before the convention. That's all the math that counts. All else is nothing more than pissing in the wind.

This primary is going to be decided by the superdelegates at the convention, and both candidates are going to be courting them. With 800 superdelegates, any difference of 50, 100, or 200 pledged delegate counts between the candidates will be insignificant in comparison.

The Obama camp is calling for Hillary to quit before the Pennsylvania primary because every poll suggests she's going to significantly close the gap in pledged delegates with a big win there, and you're all afraid she'll continue to close the gap enough that not only will she only need a small majority of superdelegates to win at the convention, she may also walk into the convention with a higher popular vote count.

Got it now? Anything else to whine about?

[Obamanaut]

44. I took one line from the OP, and pasted it, because it makes me

smile every time I see something like this, and recall that HRC said it would be over Feb 5th - and here you are talking about a resurgence, regaining momentum, et. I guess one should avoid predicting events one cannot control, huh.

From the OP "That she'll thus close the gap in pledged delegates, and take the lead in the popular vote by June 5?"

[IndianaGreen]

49. I don't know about the Obama camp, but I am tired of the Clintons helping McCain

That's all Bill and Hill are doing now!

[IamyourTVandIownyou]

109. And if she wins, her comments will be used by McCain in commercials.

She's done either way.

[totodeinhere]

52. Because we need to wrap this up now so we can start concentrating on McCain.

[sueragingroz]

53. no worries. she's ignoring him...

[PresidentObama]

55. Afraid? Scared? You do know it's near impossible for her to win, right? We want her to give up n/t

[Seabiscuit]

74. You do know that it's "imposible" for EITHER candidate to win the magic number of pledged

delegates before the Convention, right? So cut the hypocritical crap that as a result of the current pledged delegate count (still extremely close) that "it's impossible for Hillary to win". By that standard it's ALSO IMPOSSIBLE FOR OBAMA TO WIN!!!

You're scared because you know, behind all the Obama camp's smokescreens, desperation, and whining, that it's all going to be decided by the 800(!) Superdelegates at the Convention in August.

[TML]

56. David Ortiz strikes out a lot, too

Thank you for playing. Try again.

[Seabiscuit]

104. In the 2004 Pennant Series his home runs won 3 of their 4 games in late and extra innings.

That's all that matters in the specific analogy I drew in the OP.

[TheDonkey]

57. They want to win the GE and get ready. The aren't making "backup" plans like Hillary

that is why.

[ProSense]

59. Is this like all the other Hillary cries that Obama is scared? Scared to debate, etc.?

These are not working. Hillary looked like a fool in the last debates (Xerox, etc.). The next one is coming up soon, that is if she's still around.

She's losing, and can't win. Obama has nothing to be afraid of. He doesn't need to be complacent, but to say he's afraid is a little pathetic reverse psychology.

[William769]

60. K&R!

[SeattleGirl]

61. It's not "The Obam Camp". That makes it sound like every single

person who supports him is doing that. I'm not, and neither are many other people who support him.

Please don't post these broad-brush statements. That's as bad as an Obama supporter saying, "The Clinton Camp says blah blah blah about Obama."

[ElsewheresDaughter]

63. because she is going to win the popular vote with real dem votes

NOT like the 1x crossover Rethug Obama wins in red states with


there I said it again

[Snarkoleptic]

64. Um, I believe that you've twisted the facts as much as Hillary.

The RW has been pushing for a Clinton victory over Obama because they know she's going to lose to McSame.
Look at Limbaugh and his 'operation chaos', here's a RW heavyweight begging his followers to vote for Clinton.

[greguganus]

67. Fail again. n/t

[LibertyorDeath]

65. LOL....I know you know how to read......

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/democratic_delegate_count.html

[RBInMaine]

68. How is knowing that she can't win the delegate math "running scared"?

[dionysus]

69. it's good to have a healthy imagination....

[DemVet]

70. Entirely possible.

[theredpen]

75. This spin is hilarious

This is like Bush claiming that renewed violence in Iraq is a "sign of progress."

[Seabiscuit]

76. You obviously either never took a course in logic, or took it and failed it.

Your post is utterly irrational.

[Condem]

81. So Seabiscuit

I caucused for Edwards in Iowa. How exactly is Clinton going to win?

[theredpen]

Oh "proof by assertion" -- did they teach that at your community college or what?

:rofl:

[Seabiscuit]

83. 8:00 p.m. Lights out for an hour:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=3078835&mesg_id=3078835

[Condem]

85. Seabiscuit

You are the MAN!!!!

[AllentownJake]

84. We are not afraid

Mathmatically with chance of winning the score is more like 35-14 and its more like football game in the fourth quarter with 10 minutes to go not a baseball game in the 7th inning.... but I digress

We are tired of spending money against a defeated candidate that could be used against McCrazy.

[walldude]

87. Funny, I could have sworn I heard Obama tell Hillary

to stay in the race today...

[walldude]

89. Well, what do you know... I did:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080330/ap_on_el_pr/campaign_rdp

Yeah, he sounds terrified.. :rofl:

[Little Star]

92. I have two words for Obama,

Drop Out!!!! You are likable enough for dog catcher. Maybe.

[Life Long Dem]

95. That's a simple question. The Obama camp is not running scared. n/t

[VADem11]

96. Thanks for the laughter

The media is finally getting that it doesn't matter if Hillary wins Pennsylvania. The days when momentum decided this thing is dead. Obama will do decently in PA and then utterly crush HRC in NC. She is down by 700,000 votes right now. That is very hard to make up. Furthermore, the superdelegates are not going to commit political suicide and endorse the candidate who is losing by every measure and alienate the most reliable Democratic constituency. And by the way, Obama said that she should stay in as long as she wants so he isn't afraid by any means.

[DesEtoiles]

98. a lie

[housewolf]

102. Well the dirty secret is...

it's Obama supporters who are calling for Hillary to step out, not Obama or any of his campaign folks.

[AmericanUnity]

103. TO SAY OBAMA'S 'RUNNING SCARD' IS LIKE SAYING A FOOTBALL TEAM UP 15 WITH 2 MIN TO GO IS

[izzybeans]

105. Good thing he isn't saying that then.

[Mooney]

106. Yes, we are deeply afraid of allowing Hillary Clinton to continue her candidacy.

It's not that she's embarrassing herself and it's painful to watch or anything.

[Laelth]

107. I admire your courage and devotion.

But your question isn't serious, is it? Is it not obvious that a bitter and expensive television war between the candidates is no longer in the best interests of the party?

Even if that's not obvious, is that not a good reason to consider dropping out? ... for the health and welfare of the party?

:toast:

-Laelth

Edit:Laelth--sloppy proofreading.

[Seabiscuit]

130. You're afraid of the "bitter and expensive television war between the candidates"?

Why don't you then call on Obama to drop out? Or Tweety? Or Rupert Murdoch? Or Sean Hannity? Or Senator Patrick Leahy?

Because you're afraid Clinton just might win the nomination?

I vote for the latter.

[Zhade]

113. SCARED? HAHAHAHAHAHA!

You're kidding, right?

She's not going to win. Period. What's to be scared of in this situation?

[question everything]

114. One has to wonder whether the ones making the call already voted

How dare they take the choice away from the voters of PA, IN, and the remaining states?

Do people here realize that had Clinton not won NH, that the race may have been over before Super Tuesday, with practically two small states determining our nominee?

And, except when an incumbent president ran, the only winner of the Iowa caucuses to make it to the White House was... Bush in 2000. And we know what kind of "winning" this was. Or Carter, who came second to "uncommitted" but this was a generation ago.

[Political Heretic]

119. Actually the "Obama camp" says Clinton should stay in the race for as long as she wants.

That's what the Obama campaign says.

[workinclasszero]

121. Hillary is working for the McCain campaign now

It doesn't mean squat if she does win Pennsylvania. She wont ever beat Obama in pledged delegates.

The only reason she is still in is to ruin Obama's chance to win the GE and hand the election to her good friend McCain.

That way Hillary can run again in 2012.

[gristy]

124. OBAMA IS NOT CALLING FOR CLINTON TO QUIT

THAT YOUR BS POST HAS NO LINKS FOR BACKUP FOR THIS CLAIM IS TELLING.

[Seabiscuit]

128. Learn to read. The OP clearly stated "Obama camp", not "Obama".

It clearly referenced Obama supporters in general, not just on DU but at large (e.g. Sen. Patrick Leahy). It referenced "they", not "he".

You can stop shouting now.

Try thinking with your brain instead of your emotions.

[Life Long Dem]

126. I just want to know when Hillary is going to quit?

[OzarkDem]

129. Maybe he's worried

that more negative stories of his past and supporters are going to surface. It would be better if he deals with them now, than to wait until the GE.

[Vinca]

131. I want Hillary to quit, but not for the usual reasons.

If I hear her yell one more of her speeches, I might be tempted to jump off a bridge somewhere. This woman has a voice like nails on a chalkboard. In addition, she slows the cadence of her speech to a crawl as if she's talking to a crowd of special needs people. It drives me nuts.

[Kurovski]

138. "Scared"? That's a great square peg you're trying to force into a round hole. (nt)

[Raffi Ella]

140. "Why is the Obama camp running scared with premature calls for Clinton to quit?"

"...an act of cowardice, motivated by fear".

That's my impression.

[pompano]

146. Not a better....

time, not a better post to cue-up

McFadden/Whitehead "Ain't No Stopping Us Now"

[Seabiscuit]

147. This all afforded me some rather extensive housecleaning.

Just added at least another 20 pseudonyms to my ignore list.

Thanks to all of you for posting.

:)

[PoliticalAmazon]

148. If you hold your arms straight out, you'll spin better

Hillary Clinton has, since Iowa, tried to divide the party's voters so she can win. She has lied, cheated, and tried to steal. She is, in short, just like Bush Jr, and will do anything, in her ham-fisted way, to get what she wants.

She should not be running at all because she IS divisive. This is something the Democratic Party cannot afford, yet we watch the divisions go more strong every day that she is in the race.

If you don't vote for or endorse her, in Hillary's mind, you are worthless. She has dismissed entire states-ful of voters because the majority of the state's voters voted for Obama. She has dismissed African-American votes for Obama as being all because they share the same ethnic background. I am German-American white, but I'm not voting for Hillary or John McCain. I am voting for Obama, and his race makes up zero percent of the reasons I am voting for him.

She can't win in the General and in the Primary, not by honest and ethical methods.

I've already posted the reasons why HRC can't win in the Primary. To avoid spamming, here's the link: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=5280301&mesg_id=5281280

[Butch350]

150. Because...

He wants to devote his time preparing for McCain-the-War-Heroe.

[Butch350]

151. Come On...

What ever your smoking - is it for medicinal purposes are is it just a recreational thing?

[Khaotic]

155. Not scared, just ...

Embaraced for Hillary and the Democratic Party.

At this point is looks bad that we, the Democratic Party, even have Hillary out there.

Her BOLD FACE L-I-E about taking sniper fire is something to really shake your head at.

How in the fucking world can a viable candidate for President be out there making up fairy tales?!?

This looks bad for the party to even have her out there.

Her credibility is shot!



I mean really ... how long will she actually stick around?????

[pompano]

161. Oh Yes...Oh Yes....

ummm huh! Oh Yes!

They are laughing overseas to. We don't hear Bill screaming about fairy tales anymore, wonder why? If corkscrew landing, flak jacket sitting, bullet dodging, greeting ceremony canceling, sniper firing commando confabulations are not fairy tales, would someone be nice enough to tell me what is?

To be embarrassed one has to have some sort of shame. What she is allowing to happen to the Democratic Party, as in, putting herself before party unity, I question not unfairly.

[Butch350]

156. What are you afraid of?

That O'Bama may win the Nomination? Is that your reason for your post?

[izzybeans]

157. Where is this Obama camp and do they have electric hook ups?

Where is it running? Speaking of, is their running water on site. Showers? etc.

Can we drink in the camp? Or will the rangers tell us to stop? Are there private camp sites?

[Seabiscuit]

158. One thing you can be sure the Obama camp will provide for you, wherever located:

A pitcher of kool-aid.

:evilgrin:

[izzybeans]

159. I agree, its been tasty for sure.

;)

:toast:

[Seabiscuit]

160. LMAO ... HAHAHAHA ... nt

:)

[FogerRox]

162. Hillary supporters need time to grieve, lets all give them some space

I adapted Expert Elizabeth Kubler-Ross 5 stages of grief:

Denial - Wow, how long did it take for Hillary to even admit she had a problem! At this point, her supporters admit that she is behind, but still think she has a chance. They are still in denial, thinking that somehow the superdelegates will hand it to her, when she's lost the contest. But, it's a much milder level of denial that it was back in January and February.

Anger - Well, there's plenty of that all around. This seems to be the stage that most of them in right now. That's why they are so negative. Can't wait until they are mostly out of this stage myself.

Bargaining - We saw that in the "offer" to let Obama be her VP. They tried. Once it's clearer to them that the game is over, I would expect more bargaining to occur. They can make things more difficult for the Dems and Obama. Let's hope it's more like bargaining and less like blackmail.

Depression - We haven't seen this yet, have we? When we get there, the air will just go out of the balloon. That's when Hillary will give up. Her suppporters will go quiet. This is bound to happen once the primaries are over. Her supporters may still feel they can't support Obama at this stage, but they will have stopped fighting him.

Acceptance - I am sure by the fall, most will have made it to this stage. They'll vote Democratic. Hillary's supporters are all good Democrats. They will help the party

.

[AX10]

163. K/R

Shame on Pat Leahy.