I was heart broken In '72 I thought McGovern would ekk out a victory against Nixon,

[FogerRox]

I was 14 & reality soon set in. But first I had to grieve. Sort of like losing a family member, you need time and some space. Some of us had a similar experience with Deans campaign on '04.

After super tuesday it started to become clear that Barack Obama would be the democratic nominee. Many Hillary supporters have donated money, volunteered untold hours knocking on doors, making phone calls. They have given their all, they have made an emotional investment.

This is as it should be.


I adopted Death in the family expert Elizabeth Kubler-Ross's 5 stages of grief

Denial - We will win on march 4th, well no... ah the next primary we will win big.... They are still in denial, thinking that somehow the superdelegates will hand it to her, when she's lost the contest. But, it's a much milder level of denial that it was back in January and February.

Anger - Well, there's plenty of that all around. This seems to be the stage that most of them in right now. That's why they are so negative. Can't wait until they are mostly out of this stage myself.

Bargaining - We saw that in the "offer" to let Obama be her VP. They tried. Once it's clearer to them that the game is over, I would expect more bargaining to occur. They can make things more difficult for the Dems and Obama. Let's hope it's more like bargaining and less like blackmail.

Depression - Maybe a depressed candidate makes crazy statements about landing in Kosovo to sniper fire...
When we get there, the air will just go out of the balloon. That's when Hillary will give up. Her suppporters will go quiet. This is bound to happen once the primaries are over. Her supporters may still feel they can't support Obama at this stage, but they will have stopped fighting him.

Acceptance - I am sure by the fall, most will have made it to this stage. They'll vote Democratic. Hillary's supporters are all good Democrats. They will help the party

.


I think its time the rest of us back off on the Hillary sniping.... lets give our fellow DUers some space & time. Afterall they are our brothers and sisters.

Edit: spelling stuff.

[EFerrari]

1. I was a year older. Last week, I heard him say

that what really tanked his campaign in his view was that his intra party opponents kept opposing him AFTER he had the nom. Something to keep in mind.

[CTyankee]

7. I loved him, but have since read Teddy White's old book, The Making of the President 1972.

McGovern ran a sloppy campaign. Eagleton's melt down was a good example of it. He got a good guy to replace him, Sargent Shriver, but he never broke through with his message to enough people. Also, we have to remember how fresh the loss of a major wing of the Democratic Party (Southern whites) was. The party simply hadn't had the time to rebuild.

It was sad that we lost such a good man to the service of his country as president. We elected a bad man, proven only a few years later but then it was too late...

[terrell9584]

30. Eagleton was the one who gave Novak his

Aids, Abortion and Amnesty line. Novak waited till he passed to say this.

McGovern was doomed because he had simply pissed off too many people, and the big city bosses were more concerned with saving their people in down the ticket races then they were with electing McGovern, to the point that you had operatives explaining to people how they could vote for Nixon along with voting the rest of the Democratic ticket.

Of course, it goes without saying that Nixon was the worst opponent to be facing. He successfully derailed Muskie, he tried to derail Wallace, unsuccessfully, and after he got shot, they planted McGovern campaign material in Bremer's car. A man so paranoid that he went and bugged the Democratic National Committee even when faced with the weakest Democratic opponent since Adlai Stevenson.

The thing is, the people who were so paranoid that they thought that they needed to spy on McGovern of all people are now the main strategists in the Republican Party, which is why I'm not so sure this year is a lock.

[CTyankee]

32. Well, I don't know if those people are still alive!

Look, 1972 was a different time with different issues.

My point was that this is not a 1972 situation. More than just unhelpful Democrats was the reason for McGovern's loss...

[FogerRox]

10. :-_) /Yes, something to keep in mind.

[pnwmom]

43. Something else to keep in mind is that Dems who keep up

the Hillary-hate risk losing the votes of her supporters come election time.

I haven't seen you do this, but it is common enough here -- denigrating the intelligence or motivations of her supporters, smearing people with names like "Hillary's harpies."

[EFerrari]

51. Yes -- it's been very ugly.

:(

[panader0]

2. I was 22 and it was my first vote.

I've been hooked on politics ever since.

[livetohike]

3. I was 20 and it was my first Presidential election

I campaigned for him on campus and was so enthusiastic. I love watching today's college generation get involved in this election. It brings back the memories. Yes, it was heart breaking when he lost to Nixon. I couldn't believe my generation didn't make the difference.

[MonkeyFunk]

4. well, he didn't ekk so good.

[FogerRox]

9. I was in denial.

[MADem]

5. Yeah, let's wait until the rest of the states get to vote.

Apparently not all of the O supporters heard what their candidate had to say on the subject.

Let's see what PA and IN have to say before there's any "grieving" going on.

[HockeyMom]

6. McGovern was my first vote

Yes, it was a shock when he lost. I have learned since then that you win some (Carter, Clinton) and you lose some (Bush, Bush).

In all this time I have never voted in a Primary before since I was an Independent. This year is my first. So I will just have to see if my choice is the winner.

[patrice]

8. I was 23 and the youngest person at my husband's (blue-chip) corporate

July 4th party. I remember being quite embarassed when talked turned briefly to politics and I discovered I was the ONLY McGovern supporter there - the boss's house (though my husband ALWAYS supported me and my political views, he kept his support quiet). I remember inadvertently sticking out my tongue at my gaff (a nearly universal reflex associated with embarassment) and then blushing at how stupid I felt.

None of that changed my mind; I just learned to be a little more sophisticated in my opposition.

[depakid]

11. The irony is that if Obama's the nominee, we're probably looking at another McGovern style defeat

in November.

[FogerRox]

14. Correct, McCain will lose like Goldwater in '64

[DemocratSinceBirth]

16. I'm Knocked Over By Your Ipse Dixit Arguments

But your map does add a dollop of panache...

[Warren Stupidity]

18. I'm missing where the poster he was responding to had any more

evidence to back up his assertion of a McCain landslide. Neither has any solid evidence either way.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

20. They Were Both Ipse Dixit Arguments In Search Of Evidence

However the burden of proof is on the original poster as he asserted Obama would win...

[FogerRox]

21. I'm sorry you see it that way, I mean the assertation.

"your map does add a dollop of panache"


Well, isnt that what photobucket is for... ?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

23. I Believe In Karma

All the taunting of the Clinton supporters might come back on you folks...

And when people who have had real pain in their life see The Five Stages Of Grief turned into a punch line they take umbrage...

[FogerRox]

27. Touche~.... LOL.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

29. My Mom Had Her Leg Amputated Below The Knee Because A Doctor Fucked Up Badly

I'll ask her if The Five Stages Of Grief was a laugh riot...

[depakid]

17. Actually, it'll probably look more like Dukakis

If he can hold Massachusetts, that is.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

19. We Shall See

I do think Obama adds CA and CT to the Dukakis column...

[depakid]

24. Yep, I think that's probable

The way the stage is set at this point, McCain basically has to implode- and the corporate media has to report it, for an Obama candidacy to have much of a chance in November.

[eridani]

46. Clinton has destroyed her own possible candidacy by using Rethug memes

Every time she says 'commander in chief', the Dems lose a few hundred thousand votes. Repubs just do fear better, and Clinton is making the primary all about fear.

[PM7nj]

25. yea, there is no way he'll win Illinois...

[depakid]

26. Of course he will

But of course, that's beside the point. The way it looks, he won't carry any Bush states- and won't hold on to all of Kerry's.

[PM7nj]

34. He could definitely carry a few Bush states!

Iowa, Colorado, New Mexico and Nevada could all go blue if Obama is the nominee. I am sure he can hold onto all of Kerry's except maybe NH, they have some kind of lust for McCain up there. You can't tell what is going to happen in the fall from springtime polls. The spring polls in 2004 had Kerry winning.

[FatDave]

44. The fact you seem to be forgetting...

...is that Obama is popular among independents and has even been picking up some crossover republicans. It became a Hillary talking point when she tried to make a strength (popularity with independents) into a weakness ("real democrats prefer Hillary").

But the fact remains, Hillary is not very popular with independents, but McCain is. The importance of this cannot be overstated. Getting independent voters to your side is what wins elections. We can't let them all go to McCain.

[Pawel K]

47. And which ass are you pulling all these "facts" out off?

[Spider Jerusalem]

45. Out of curiosity, how does Hillary win?

With 37% favourable ratings? The idea that Hillary is somehow a more electable candidate is just completely out of touch with reality and totally neglects the fact that she is intensely disliked by a lot of people.

[Traction311]

36. You're both wrong

No matter who wins, there will be no landslide. The days of 1964, 1972, and 1984 are long gone. Country is more divided then ever.

[Awsi Dooger]

37. Correct

We have slight edge in '08, via 2 straight GOP terms and a remarkably unpopular president, lousy economy and his disastrous war.

But it's only a narrow edge, not the inevitable triumph of '06 in a second term midterm scenario. Elections after one party has held office exactly two straight terms are historically the closest in modern history -- '60, '68, '76, '00. Only exception was '88, when the incumbent party won handily.

We've been through this before. DUers in '04 were asserting landslide. Then they turned to theft when Kerry lost. Now back to landslide. I've noticed a vast majority are Obama supporters, delusional belief in the type of crossover appeal he'll have.

Edwards was our hope at a semi-comfortable victory. A woman or black man always meant we'd forfeit margin for error. That's simply where we are as a nation in '08. I don't have any trouble making a gamble but let's not kid ourselves that we're gambling.

BTW, in '72 I was in 7th grade. My civics teacher was the most relentless McGovern supporter on the planet. His briefcase was coated with McGovern stickers. So was his Volkswagen. He crossed the line and pitched partisanship in class until election day. I loved it since I was in agreement but other kids took it home and their parents complained.

To this day I'm convinced he screwed me one letter grade, from A to B, because I insisted McGovern had no chance. Even at that age I wasn't letting hope get in the way of reality.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

12. The Irony Is Delicious

You are using Eli(s)abeth Kubler Ross' Five Stages Of Grief to mock Hillary Clinton's supporters...You better keep it handy because you might need it yourself this November...

[hfojvt]

48. Clinton supporters were being mocked?

I thought it was a plea for understanding and tolerance, and called for less sniping at Hillary.

Does that mean you won't grieve if Obama loses in November?

[Drunken Irishman]

13. I like what Libby Holden (Primary Colors) said about the McGovern campaign.

I couldn't believe that Tom Eagleton would really be a nutcase. They had to have dragged him off and drugged him and made him crazy. It couldn't have been that McGovern was just -- a complete fucking amateur. No, they did dirty tricks. And I said to Jack, "We gotta get that capability." And you said, "No. Our job is to end all that. Our job is to make it clean. Because if it's clean, we win -- because our ideas are better."

:D

[Warren Stupidity]

22. And 36 years later we are still holding out for clean.

And getting whumped by low down non stop no holds barred dirty. Our ideas are indeed better, but the campaigns are all about things like imaginary snipers and misconstrued sermons, about anything except actual issues.

[FogerRox]

28. Yes, Touche~.... LOL.

[EFerrari]

38. Well, the job is to move people. People don't move for abstractions

very often, whether we like that or not.

[helderheid]

15. K&R

[madfloridian]

31. Recommended. We went through those stages in 2004

when Dean left the race. But we remained Democrats, supported Kerry, and we continued to support and donate to the party.

We aren't as active on the ground now in FL because of the shunning of those who opposed the vote for the early primary.

But we survived those stages of grief in 04. Dean is stronger, and so are the grassroots he empowered.

[FogerRox]

35. Yes we did, in '72 too

[AllentownJake]

33. No Quarter

Till this is over no quarter for them. Let them go to their own forums if they need consoling. If they come here and post inflammatory garbage....hit back and hit back hard with the truth.

[FogerRox]

39. Truth is good, ad honinminimum stuff ahhh not so much

[BeyondGeography]

40. Go after the candidate, not her supporters

I respect anyone who sticks their neck out for a candidate they believe in, which is much different from supporting someone just because you hate the other guy.

[McCamy Taylor]

41. I was 13 loved McGovern but after Eagleton, it was all downhil, I knew he was toast.

I didn't know he would lose 49 states (man, that was surreal!) but you could tell from the polls that he was heading towards a loss, so there was plenty of time to get used to it.

Watergate more than made up for it, though.

BTW, maybe it was because I came from a hardcore Democratic family, but I never once fell for the dirty trick line that Humphrey was the same as Nixon or evil or corrupt or the source of all the badness that plagued the party that year. It was very clear in my mind that the Republicans---Nixon--were the enemy, and that Nixon had escalated the war so he owned it, not Humphrey, not the Dems.

You guys need to keep that in mind when you are thinking about Hillary. I was 13. I will bet that most of you are a lot older than 13.

[BzaDem]

42. Sorry, the one in denial will be you, after Obama does about as well as McGovern.

Maybe a bit better; maybe a respectable loss. But it is the supporters of your candidate that say he will pull off a 40+ state victory, including Wyoming and Idaho. I would think a little more before accusing others of being in denial.

[EFerrari]

52. Obama is more mainstream than McGovern ever was

but thank you for your useful critique.

[David Zephyr]

49. I volunteered for McGovern and helped in the Catskills.

I remember McGovern's television address just before the election when it looked so bad for him. It broke my heart. I still have great love for Senator McGovern.

[otohara]

50. My First Vote - Shocked When It Was A Landslide

I didn't cry like I've done each time we lose to another icky republican.