This is a no-brainer...I would not vote for someone who did not pay their bills.

[Raven]

Not someone who has millions of dollars of their own money and who pays their high priced consultants but stiffs elementary schools and small businesses and grocery stores...for months.

If the stories about Senator Clinton's debts to the little people are valid (and I have not seen anything disputing them) then this candidate does not stand for what I do, if fact, she is so far away from what I feel is fair and honest, even in political campaigns, that I am will really have to dig down very deep to vote for her if she is the nominee. And if she is the nominee, we've lost this country.

I was taught that you paid your bills and if you couldn't afford something, you didn't buy it. You never stiffed anybody.

So, Clinton folks, tell me that these awful stories are wrong and I will be relieved.

[C_U_L8R]

1. Apparently she's not very good at 'pay as you go'

Doesn't exactly instill much confidence in her fiduciary capabilities.

[Raven]

6. Well, in fairness, she's not sitting down everyday writing the checks

but she sure as hell has some shitheads in charge of that particular task!

[C_U_L8R]

10. The buck literally stops with her

there's no excuse for a badly run organization
(it's a sure sign of a weak executive)

[babylonsister]

2. And look at the current deficit; what would that look like after 4 years? nt

[KoKo]

3. Couldn't this be Repug Spin, though? n/t

[flor de jasmim]

5. No, this is from the official financial records they have to file.

[flor de jasmim]

4. You're right--on many levels:

It speaks to her basic VALUES, her ethics, her attention to detail, her short-sightedness (word gets around!), cognitive dissonance (who does she say she represents vs. reality)... on so many levels this is WRONG.

On the medical payments - I hope this does not mean her people are not really covered, if they get sick.

I hope the MSM keeps a "running tab" on this (pun intended).

[TexanDem]

7. um, she claims to stand for working stiffs -she stiffs working stiffs!

[brokensymmetry]

8. Oh, but you should.

After all, with a $9,000,000,000,000.00 debt, the U.S.
needs someone with appropriate experience.

Just sayin'....

[anamandujano]

9. . . . or someone who bought his house with the help of a crook.

:spank:

[flor de jasmim]

12. already debunked--keep up

[Ravy]

24. That hasn't been debunked. It is an acknowledged fact.

Owner wouldn't sell just the house, wanted to sell it with the lot. Obama had Rezko buy the lot and Obama bought the house.

What has been debunked about that? Obama himself acknowledged it was poor judgement on his part.

[roguevalley]

31. stay on task. start a thread with obama but tell me how Hillary

loves the working man and small business again.

[Ravy]

35. I didn't start any thread. And I don't care which one wins.

I just want to see the topics argued fairly.

[JayFredMuggs]

53. No you don't you want to use words like "crook"....

when no one was being investigated, no one was charged, you have already convicted him.

Yeah, you sure are fair........

How is that Bosnia landing under sniper fire working out for you?

[Ravy]

105. Where did I use the word crook?

Welcome to DU.

[Debi]

56. fairly equals diversions?

Clinton doesn't pay her bills - that's what this thread is about.

http://query.nictusa.com/pres/2008/M3/C00431569/D_DEBTS_C00431569.html

[Ravy]

106. I agree.

I was just correcting a poster and since I had the Audacity of Truth I got on some kind of hit list.

[stevenleser]

32. That HAS been debunked. The owner in question was interviewed and said those claims were false.

If you need it, I can find you a link. Let me know.

[Ravy]

44. Then the owner in question is calling Obama a liar. nt

[stevenleser]

46. No, they arent. What does it say for you that you comment on something you havent seen?

What is up with that?

[Ravy]

48. I took what I wrote from his own words. If the propery owner disagrees, then

he is disagreeing with Obama, not me.


Q: How do you explain the fact your family purchased your home the same day as Rita Rezko bought the property adjacent to yours? Was this a coordinated purchase?
A: The sellers required the closing of both properties at the same time. As they were moving out of town, they wished to conclude the sale of both properties simultaneously.


Q: Did you approach Rezko or his wife about the property, or did they approach you?
A: To the best of my recollection, I told him about the property, and he developed an interest, knowing both the location and, as I recall, the developer who had previously purchased it.

http://www.suntimes.com/news/politics/124171,CST-NWS-obama05.article

[stevenleser]

49. From factcheck.org

http://www.factcheck.org/askfactcheck/does_obama_have_a_real_estate_problem.html

Does Obama have a real estate problem?
Was Obama’s real estate deal in Illinois really an issue?
A: A political patron from whom he bought a strip of land is under federal indictment, but there's no evidence Obama did anything improper.
Here’s what happened: In 2005, Barack Obama and his wife, Michelle, bid $1.65 million for a house on the south side of Chicago. According to newspaper reports, the owner was also trying to sell an undeveloped parcel of land adjacent to the property Obama was buying, and he wanted the sales of the two to close on the same day. Obama has said that he mentioned he was buying the house to a longtime political patron, Antoin (Tony) Rezko, a developer. Rezko’s wife wound up buying the lot adjacent to Obama’s. At the request of the Obamas, who were seeking a bit more space for their yard, she later sold them a 10-foot wide strip, or about one-sixth, of her land. The Obamas paid $104,500 for it, or about one-sixth of what Mrs. Rezko had paid for the entire property.

Obama doesn’t appear to have reaped any financial advantages from the transactions. The reason the deal has received a good bit of attention is that Tony Rezko – whose political contributions to Illinois’ former governor, Obama and others totaled in the hundreds of thousands of dollars – was known to be under federal investigation at the time the Obamas were purchasing their home. In 2006, Rezko was indicted in three federal cases: Two involved fraud schemes in which he allegedly demanded payments from firms wanting work from the enormous Illinois teachers’ pension fund and from those wanting favorable rulings from a state board that regulates the building of new hospital facilities. In the third, he was charged with fraudulently obtaining more than $10 million in loans for a pizza restaurant business; in December 2007, prosecutors added more fraud counts to that indictment.

Obama has a relationship with Rezko that dates back many years, but there’s no indication Obama did anything improper. Shortly after finishing law school, Obama, who had turned down a job offer from the developer, went to work at a law firm where he represented some community groups that partnered with Rezko to apply for housing rehabilitation loans. As a state legislator, he wrote letters to city and state officials in support of Rezko’s efforts to build apartments for the elderly with government money; the senator asserts that this was a project the community wanted. Obama got together with Rezko a couple of times a year, he has said.

Obama has donated campaign contributions from Rezko and his associates to charity, and he said in 2006, when the real estate transaction was reported by the press, that he made a “boneheaded” mistake by participating in the deal when it was known that Rezko was being investigated. “I regret it,” Obama said. “I’m going to make sure from this point on I don’t even come close to the line.”

[Ravy]

50. Which supports my statement.

"Here’s what happened: In 2005, Barack Obama and his wife, Michelle, bid $1.65 million for a house on the south side of Chicago. According to newspaper reports, the owner was also trying to sell an undeveloped parcel of land adjacent to the property Obama was buying, and he wanted the sales of the two to close on the same day. Obama has said that he mentioned he was buying the house to a longtime political patron, Antoin (Tony) Rezko, a developer. Rezko’s wife wound up buying the lot adjacent to Obama’s. "

Rezko helped them out by buying the lot next door so the owner would sell the house to Obama. Whether it was ethical or not is a matter of conjecture and where one's ethics lies, I suppose.

Perhaps I conjectured myself when I said Obama "had" Rezko buy the lot... He mentioned he wanted to buy this house to a longtime political supporter with lots of cash, but said he couldn't unless someone bought the lot from the owner at the same time.

Whether you would call this Obama "having" Rezko buy the lot is a matter of conjecture as well.

[stillcool]

74. Rezko bought the lot next door..

there was no 'helping out'. This horse has been dead for a long time now, but I guess I can't blame you for recycling....when you have no fresh material.

[Ravy]

104. I know. Read what I posted.

The seller didn't want to sell just the house.

And I didn't bring it up. I just said it hasn't been debunked. For my two cents, I don't think it is that big of a deal when we have people losing houses and soldiers losing life and limb.

But your guy isn't perfect, and efforts to turn him into some type of infallible being are really annoying and as I said in another post, creepy.

I hope he does get elected just to hear all of you whine when you find out he doesn't shit banana splits for everyone.

[stillcool]

112. There is no effort to turn him into..

some infallible being. The problem is when people constantly recycle contentious charges and misinterpret the facts. If there is a problem with the whole Rezko deal it will be campaign contributions, not all this bullshit that has been gone over with a fine-toothed comb for YEARS now. I'm sure you pray every day for Senator Obama's defeat so you can hear other people whine.

[dkf]

34. There was another offer for the land for the same amount

by another bidder not connected to Rezko.

Your research is bad.

[Ravy]

37. I didn't do any research other than to read Obama's own explaination. nt

[dkf]

39. Look, even though there was another offer, he still feels bad about the situtation

He is owning up to creating the possible appearance of a conflict of interest, which he acknowledges was unacceptable.

But what I told you is what I have read, and it says something about him that while he can use it and has talked about it in the past, he does not offer it up as an excuse.

This is what he had to say about it:

A: Our agent negotiated only with the seller's agent. As we understood it, the house had been listed for some time, for months, and our offer was one of two and, as we understood it, it was the best offer. The original listed price was too high for the market at the time, and we understood that the sellers, who were anxious to move, were prepared to sell the house for what they paid for it, which is what they did.

We were not involved in the Rezko negotiation of the price for the adjacent lot. It was our understanding that the owners had received, from another buyer, an offer for $625,000 and that therefore the Rezkos could not have offered or purchased that lot for less.

http://www.suntimes.com/news/politics/124171,CST-NWS-obama05.article

[Ravy]

43. I have never seen him offer up that as an excuse either.

I don't need perfection in a candidate. Obama and Clinton are both lots better than McCain.

But they both have flaws. They have both lied on record. Not as often, nor with as devistating of consequences as McCain has.

But some of Obama's supporters feel the need to defend Obama over trivial little matters such as this, where even Obama has said he made a mistake.

I want a great candidate. I am not looking for one without human frailty or flaws. The fact that some of his supporters seem to need to perserve an allure of perfection for Obama creeps me out, quite frankly.

[dkf]

47. Yeah, but his mistake was in creating an appearance of a conflict

of interest and not in using his donor for a personal favor.

I get upset because I do find this a big distinction as I highly prize Obama's ability to be unbiased and not bought by donors.

[Cant trust em]

51. The mistake is by doing business with someone who had problems unrelated to this transaction

it's a political problem, not a real estate problem.

Moreover, aren't there other threads dedicated to Rezko. After reading the give and take between you and some other posters I can't even remember why I came to this thread in the first place.

[Ravy]

108. Yeah, it shouldn't be here.

I just said it wasn't be debunked, which upset the sensabilities of some of those who need a Saint, not a Presidential Candidate.

[stillcool]

68. Anything you want to know can be found here:

http://archpundit.com/blog/2008/01/24/rezko-primer-vi-house-purchase/
The 94 page pdf of documents related to the sale of the house. Includes Listing Ad, Trust Agreement, Mortgage and other goodies

http://archpundit.com/wpcontent/uploads/2008/03/housepurchase.pdf


Obama bought a house on the same day as Rezko’s wife bought a vacant lot which had been subdivided from the main lot. Obama answered a series of questions from the Sun-Times on the deal:

Q: The seller of your house appears to be a doctor at the University of Chicago . Do you or your wife know him? If so, did either of you ever talk to him about subdividing the property? If you ever did discuss the property with him, when were those conversations?

A: We did not know him personally, though my wife worked in the same University hospital. The property was subdivided and two lots were separately listed when we first learned of it. We did not discuss the property with the owners; the sale was negotiated for us by our agent.

Q: Did you approach Rezko or his wife about the property, or did they approach you?

A: To the best of my recollection, I told him about the property, and he developed an interest, knowing both the location and, as I recall, the developer who had previously purchased it.

Q: Who was your Realtor? Did this Realtor also represent Rita Rezko?

A: Miriam Zeltzerman, who had also represented me in the purchase of my prior property, a condominium, in Hyde Park. She did not represent Rita Rezko.

Q: How do you explain the fact your family purchased your home the same day as Rita Rezko bought the property adjacent to yours? Was this a coordinated purchase?

A: The sellers required the closing of both properties at the same time. As they were moving out of town, they wished to conclude the sale of both properties simultaneously. The lot was purchased first; with the purchase of the house on the adjacent lot, the closings could proceed and did, on the same day, pursuant to the condition set by the sellers.

Q: Why is it that you were able to buy your parcel for $300,000 less than the asking price, and Rita Rezko paid full price? Who negotiated this end of the deal? Did whoever negotiated it have any contact with Rita and Tony Rezko or their Realtor or lawyer?

A: Our agent negotiated only with the seller’s agent. As we understood it, the house had been listed for some time, for months, and our offer was one of two and, as we understood it, it was the best offer. The original listed price was too high for the market at the time, and we understood that the sellers, who were anxious to move, were prepared to sell the house for what they paid for it, which is what they did.

We were not involved in the Rezko negotiation of the price for the adjacent lot. It was our understanding that the owners had received, from another buyer, an offer for $625,000 and that therefore the Rezkos could not have offered or purchased that lot for less.

Q: Why did you put the property in a trust?

A: I was advised that a trust holding would afford me some privacy, which was important to me as I would be commuting from Washington to Chicago and my family would spend some part of most weeks without me.

Q: A Nov. 21, 1999, Chicago Tribune story indicates the house you bought “sits on a quarter-acre lot and will share a driveway and entrance gate with a home next door that has not yet been built.” Is this shared driveway still in the mix? Will this require further negotiations with the Rezkos?

A: The driveway is not shared with the adjacent owner. But the resident in the carriage house in the back does have an easement over it.

While news sources have never explicitly said there were any discrepancies in Obama’s version, there have been no stories based on actual investigations that have disputed the story. Given the number of Chicago reporters who have spent time on the story it’s safe to say at this point that Obama’s version is accurate.

Hence, there are four key points to what happened:

1. The land was subdivided before listing
2. The winning bids were the highest bids for both properties
3. Different Realtors handled the purchases for both plots
4. The owners wanted to sell quickly


by ArchPundit @ 2:17 am on January 24, 2008.
UPDATED 3/17/08 to include Sun-Times and Tribune interviews and documents released by the campaign.

Strip of Land Documents

Fence Documents

Part of the requirement in the neighborhood was that an empty lot would have to be fenced from the housed lot due to Landmarks rules in Chicago. To make the lot aesthetically pleasing, Obama asked Rezko to sell a portion of the vacant lot to him to create a reasonable buffer:

To preserve the aesthetic balance, Obama also wanted to put some space between his house and the proposed fence, so he personally asked Tony Rezko if they would sell a portion of their lot without restricting their ability to build in the future.

“I told them if you can spare another 5 or 10 feet, I’d be happy to purchase it from you,” Obama said. “They came back and said they could sell us up to 10 feet.”

Using a standard formula, Obama’s appraiser estimated the 1,500-square-foot portion at a market value of $40,500.

But Obama felt it would be fair to pay the Rezkos $104,500, or a sixth of their original $625,000 purchase price, because he was acquiring a sixth of their land. The sale closed in January 2006.

Obama’s answer to the Sun-Times:

Q: Did Rezko have an appraisal performed for the 10-foot strip?

A: I had an appraisal conducted by Howard B. Richter & Associates on November 21, 2005.

Q: Was there a negotiation? Did he have an asking price, or did he just say, whatever you think is fair?

A: I proposed to pay on the basis of proportionality. Since the strip composed one-sixth of the entire lot, I would pay one-sixth of the purchase price of the lot. I offered this to Mr. Rezko and he accepted it.

Again, no one has brought forth any information to contradict Obama’s version including reporters who looked into the deal.

Tribune Discussion of Strip and Fence:

http://archpundit.com/blog/2008/01/24/rezko-primer-vii-land-strip-purchase-from-rezko/

[Zhade]

110. Nope. But clinton's lies about Tuzla sure are fact.

NT!

[Raven]

So, that's your response to Clinton not paying her bills? Weak response. n/t

[bellasgrams]

27. good one anamandujano

[Raven]

30. So, who got stiffed in that transaction? The grocer? n/t

[apocalypsehow]

11. It's the entitlement mentality at its ugliest: I'm the Queen, my coronation is coming up, let the

little people worry about paying bills and if they don't like it they can eat cake.

:thumbsdown:

[Evergreen Emerald]

54. I wonder where you got that idea? She has never said that...indeed Obama is the only one telling

people to quit so he can be crowned already. If anyone has "entitlement" mentality it is Obama.

So, do you just make this stuff up? Create characterizations and personality traits so you can hate her more?

[apocalypsehow]

60. That statement is false: Obama has said precisely the opposite, that HRC can and should

stay in the race as long as she wants. Since I know you have no proof of your false assertion, I won't even bother asking you to post a link substantiating it, since none exists.

You said: "So, do you just make stuff up?"

As can be seen, someone in this exchange is "making stuff up" - and it ain't moi.

[Evergreen Emerald]

71. Come on. Do you not understand what is going on? Obama speaks through his surrogates

who have been calling for Clinton to leave the race repeatedly. When asked directly, of course he says something the complete opposite of what his campaign has been calling for in the media for a month.

His campaign speaks for him.

[apocalypsehow]

76. So, as I said: no proof for your false assertion. Just an "Come on" and some blather about

"not understanding what is going on."

In the world of the grown-ups, we deal in verifiable facts, not psychic "intuition" or Ouija boards.

:eyes:

[Evergreen Emerald]

81. I am not certain what you are asking?

Proof? Where the hell have you been? His campaign has been calling for a month for her to quit. You want proof of what? It is in the media daily. Are you suggesting that he has no idea what his campaign is doing and you want proof that he knows what his campaign says to the press?

In the world of grown ups "we" don't ignore facts and pretend the world is not round.

[apocalypsehow]

85. You stated that Obama "called on" HRC to quit (see post #54 above, in case it's slipped your mind).

I said Senator Obama has said no such thing - indeed quite the opposite - and observed that I wasn't even going to ask you to post a link "proving" your assertion, since it was false and prima facie unprovable.

You responded by confirming my point: you refused to post proof of your false assertion, and now act like it's all a great mystery and you're confused by the direction this exchange has taken ( :eyes:).

Now, let's try this again: YOU. SAID. OBAMA. CALLED. ON. HRC. TO. QUIT. POST. PROOF. FOR. THIS. CLAIM. PLEASE.

See how that works? Or do I need to break out the crayons and poster board?

[Evergreen Emerald]

86. Obama's campaign speaks for him.

Seriously. More double talk from Obama supporters. Obama (through his camp) demands that Clinton quit the race.

If you seriously do not understand that Obama's campaign speaks for him, you are naive.

And frankly, knock of the sarcastic bullshit. YOu and I both know that we are arguing over nothing Because Obama's campaign speaks for him. And Obama's campaign has been calling for her to quit for a month.

[apocalypsehow]

89. So, more semantics games and yet still no proof, linked or otherwise. About what I figured.

:eyes:

Indeed, just yesterday Senator Obama said on camera that HRC should stay in as long as she wants, and yet here you are, peddling the same provably false silliness. Typical.

[Evergreen Emerald]

91. semantics?

Are you suggesting that Obama's campaign has NOT called for Clinton to quit?

Semantics? Indeed. You dissect everything anyone associated with Clinton ever said to find more reasons to justify your hate.

And we have Obama's camp daily calling for her to quit and you pretend it is not happening?

[apocalypsehow]

92. Still no linky-linky, huh? I well understand: non-existent "proof" is tough to come by.

:thumbsdown:

[Evergreen Emerald]

96. What do you want a link for?

Again, are you suggesting that Obama's camp is not calling for her to quit? If you are, I suggest you read the paper, turn on the TV, check out the internets. His calls for her to quit are constant and daily.

It is as if he is entitled to it or something. He has no more right to the nomination than she does.

[apocalypsehow]

98. Once again, from the top:

YOU. SAID. SENATOR. OBAMA. CALLED. ON. HRC. TO. QUIT. THE. RACE. POST. PROOF. FOR. THIS. CLAIM. PLEASE.

Lord have mercy, our primary educational systems in this country need a serious infusion of resources.

[Evergreen Emerald]

100. And if you have not heard it you are deaf

Good God...the proof is in the media daily.

[Forkboy]

107. I don't have cable...how about a link for me then?

[Debi]

62. Explain her not acting 'entitled' to these folks who she hasn't paid

http://query.nictusa.com/pres/2008/M3/C00431569/D_DEBTS_C00431569.html

She's entitled to their services - to their food - to use their communities and schools for events, but she doesn't have to pay for them?

Unlike the rest of us who have to pay for our groceries at the store, who have to pay our phone and electric bill on a monthly basis, who have to pay our health insurance premium every month, the Clinton campaign can pay when she wishes.

After all, she's entitled.

[Evergreen Emerald]

64. Really. That is what I mean. You create all sorts of scenarios just to hate her more

Creating facts. Giving victimization to her supporters and giving her the "evil villain" status to further allow you to go on spewing such venom that boggles the mind.

You have no idea what agreements have been made by people who may or may not have been paid. You have no idea, and yet you create this stuff, and then shout about how hateful she is.

And, of course the question is: what does "entitlement" have to do with any of this?

Entitlement that the media created and that you continue to repeat as if fact--where none exists.

[Debi]

84. People have sued her campaign to get paid!!

Agreements? They've gone to the media to force payment of their bills. Don't tell me I don't know - my local college is owed $1,000 from December, my local county fair grounds is owed over $2,000 from Decmeber, my local grocer is owed money (the company is owed $15,000) for food taken and charged on January 3rd. All of those debts affect ME.

All of her Iowa bills are four months old. I've paid my property taxes for March, I've paid my son's tuition for this semester which means I helped foot the bill for the Clinton camp events in my town. I don't want to pay for them, I don't support her.

I didn't create this fact, she didn't pay her bills. You can't spin your way out of this, she did not pay her bills.

http://www.seacoastonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080209/NEWS/802090323

[panader0]

13. She thought it would be over on Super Tuesday. Oops!

But remember the donuts! Her problem with managing the money of the campaign doesn't make her look like the economy candidate.

[gristy]

14. I agree it is a very good thing to pay one's bills, but is this really the #1 deal breaker for you?

I mean, if you otherwise really liked a candidate and he/she didn't pay their bills, would you not vote for that candidate? Where does campaign bill-paying rank among issues that are important to you? The absolute nature of your subject line "I would not vote for someone who did not pay their bills" seems extreme to me.

[Raven]

18. Paying my bills, taking things and services from others and paying for them

seems to me to be a basic trait of a decent person. I pride myself on being true to my word and meeting my obligations. If people could not rely on other people's decency and integrity and their promises, this world would be chaos. I am really surprised at your question! Yes, absolutely, Clinton paying all the little people, the schools and health insurance is extremely important to me and her campaign's failure to do that is a killer.

[PetraPooh]

20. If she hadn't already given me so many other reasons, yes, this would be the one that would break

the deal. Particularly when "its the ecomony stupid". It is just this kind of spend and spend attitude of the supposedly fiscally responsible republicans that has us in this ridiculously unfair ecomony, we don't need a dem going in that doesn't pay her bills and leaves it for taxes to pay.

[ecstatic]

26. It's an issues of integrity. Many of the people she ripped off are not mega-millionaires

They are hard working people, struggling to get by in a weak economy. And furthermore, those struggling business owners don't have the luxury of simply not paying their bills.

[JayFredMuggs]

57. Well then, add the clause, "and LIES about her experience"

In Bosnia

In Northern Ireland

In Healthcare reform

In Children's Healthcare initiative

In voting to give George W Bush authorization to go to war

Pick your lies.

[dansolo]

79. It's the economy, stupid.

The economy is a huge issue in this election. If she can't handle the finances of her campaign, then how can I believe that she can do anything about the economy? The fact that she will pay large sums of money to her DC consultants, but stiffs the little guys tells me a lot about her priorities.

[cbayer]

15. Since you are the one making the accusation,

I would suggest that it is you that needs to provide some substantive proof of your claims. Or did you just read that in an OP on DU?

Both campaigns have debts at this time, BTW.

[PetraPooh]

22. Here you go, the list is too long to copy paste.

http://query.nictusa.com/pres/2008/M3/C00431569/D_DEBTS_C00431569.html

[Raven]

23. Thank you Petra! n/t

[PetraPooh]

36. YW, when I clinked on the link I was just dumbfounded at the length and breadth of the list.

[cbayer]

41. Thank you for that.

Saw it in another post as well.

:hi:

[splat]

16. Campaign debt is common; it gets paid after the election

[Raven]

21. Tell that to the people living month to month or the schools that

trusted that campaign. Why isn't she making Mark Penn wait for his treasure?

[ecstatic]

28. Several of those business might be OUT of business at that time nt

[JayFredMuggs]

58. Well, usually it's only the last two months of unpaid bills

Not something from January in New Hampshire.

Let's be realistic, any businessperson knows that paying bills more than 30 days late is bad policy.

We already have bills from January, and it's April in 2 days.

[Debi]

65. $8.7 million - is she going to just write a check?

She was a little over $7 million in debt a month ago, even though she raised over $30 million in February she chose not to pay her debts and even incur an additional $1.7 million. Her March reporting is due on April 20th. How much farther in debt will she have gone by then? And remember that $20 someodd million she has earmarked for the general election cannot be used to pay her primary debt. Will she really pay it? Or will she leave these folks high and dry? Since she has refused to pay debt going back to Iowa and New Hampshire until the vendors sued her or contacted the media - I know wht my guess is.

[AZBlue]

88. Oh, that's a really old excuse. If that's true, then why are McCain and Obama not in so much debt?

[Debi]

102. Obama's debt

$625,000 in current debt - his COH for the primary? $31 million!

Obama pays his debts.

[AZBlue]

109. Exactly.

A little debt is going to happen - as it does in any large business due to at the very least just the lag time for processing bills and payments. However, when it reaches the level of Clinton's debt, it's a clear red flag.

[stellanoir]

17. As if. . .

we've not experienced ENOUGH fiscal irresponsibility, total unaccountability, and lack of transparency in recent years.

The thing that bothers me even more is that I've seen NONE of the networks covering this. It is yet another glaring example of her outrageously shoddy leadership.

Over the past month or so, as an avid student of Tudor history, I've often been reminded of how Queen Elizabeth the first's leadership was mostly enhanced by her overwhelmingly astute discernment in choosing her advisors. Of course there were some exceptions.

Whereas Mary Queen of Scots was surrounded by power mongering, duplicitous, and manipulatively disingenuous advisors.

They cost Mary her head.

Just saying.

* trashed every single business he ever touched. The media ignored that too and look where it got us.

She's screwing the little guys and that's just plain not right nor should she be rewarded in any way shape or form.

None of us would get away with that crap for months on end.

Mismanagement is simply. . . mismanagement. But 6 mill for Penn's thoroughly inept baloney?

Ughhh

Wish she would just concede, but that's unlikely. She is so abrasively and caustically stubborn.

/rant

Happy Spring anyway.

[Yael]

19. Her priorities speak volumes, don't they?

[ecstatic]

25. she didn't tip that poor waitress either, until she was called out

}(

[MH1]

29. It sucks but it's probably a staffer screw-up.

Hillary may not even know.

It should be brought to her attention asap and she should make sure the small businesses and public entities are paid immediately. Let the consultants wait. If they were doing their jobs better she wouldn't be short of funds.

[Raven]

33. You are right, she may not know. I hope she knows now and I hope

she makes things right.

[PetraPooh]

38. Uhm, no excuse, really, isn't that just a set up for her excuses when/if she leads the country?

[MH1]

40. Well it doesn't look good BUT any leader can have problems with a staffer screwing up.

I think the measure is whether, how, and how fast she corrects the problem.

But if her opponent doesn't even have the problem, that does imply better management by the opponent.

I guess I'm just saying this one thing isn't necessarily huge, if she handles it right, soon. But if she blows it off, then maybe it is.

[PetraPooh]

83. A staffer? Sorry, grasp at straws if you want, if she can't keep track of her finances and staffers

she's no better than GWB.

[tpsbmam]

42. I sincerely doubt this....

They have to spend their money strategically. If the campaign pays off all of their bills, they've have little left to go up against Obama. I don't think this is a staffer screwup -- I think it's calculated and shitty when I think about the small businesses in particular that aren't getting paid.

[JayFredMuggs]

61. Go on believing your little fantasy

She's too busy to know her financial situation with people she owes money to?

you DO REALIZE that each and every one of those PEOPLE she OWES money to can VOTE???


Hello!

You live in a fantasy world where bill-paying is not on your agenda?

[MH1]

93. Why attack me?

I am just trying not to overreact in attacking Clinton here at DU. If this is as bad as you seem to think, it will unravel quite seriously on her soon enough.

In general, I try not to assume the worst about people. When something looks bad, I try to see reasons why it might not be as bad as it looks. Excuse me for being so hard to get along with!

I am a staunch Obama supporter and that isn't going to change - I actually despise Hillary for certain specific reasons - but I sure can see why the Hillary supporters at DU get upset at "Obama supporters".

[JayFredMuggs]

111. Well then, sorry, I read your post wrong

I guess you were using that ancient art of sarcasm, so hard for some of us to figure out.

Apologies to you, and no, I wasn't attacking, I was pontificating.

[Debi]

69. It was brought to her attention in January and she wrote a $5 million check

and fired her campaign manager. Her new manager is working for no pay and her campaign is STILL incurring debt using any money contributed to purchase media buys and pay staff (well, some staff, just look at the reporting she's behind on that too). She's aware and ignoring the problem. January saw her over $7 million in debt, February saw her in almost $9 million in debt, what will March's reporting show? We'll know April 20th. Don't think for a moment that Senator Clinton is unaware of how poorly run her campaign is, she just doesn't seem to care.

[MH1]

95. I didn't know that these unpaid bills were part of the January situation

but what you say makes sense.

Believe me I don't think that Clinton is a good manager or anything, and I didn't mean to imply that. But there seems to be the implication that she is being mean-spirited in personally denying payment to certain groups, and I just don't think she's that close to it. If she had the right financial manager, she wouldn't HAVE to be close to it. But it is probably true that she should be paying enough attention to know.

[Debi]

101. This isn't her first time running for office

As soon as her campaign started getting sued for unpaid bills she should have ensured that Iowa/New Hampshire bills from before those contests were paid.

30 days behind, okay, that would show up paid in the next reporting period (even 60 days since so much happened in January/February) but 120 days behind? That's intentional.

[stillcool]

78. As long as she doesn't make it a habit...

Clinton camp reimburses; landlord to donate check to Obama campaign
February 13, 2008 12:19 PM
http://www.seacoastonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080213/NEWS/80213011
by: Karen Dandurant Seacoast Online

Rochester doctor Terry Bennett has finally been paid by the Clinton campaign for rental of a Portsmouth building he owns. Now, he says he will donate the $500 check to Barack Obama’s campaign.
--------------------------

Bennett said he believes the only reason the Clinton campaign paid for renting his 236 Union St. storefront is because he became the “squeaky wheel,” contacting the Herald last week in frustration because he had not been paid for more than a month.

“Thirty days went by, with no replies to phone calls, e-mails, no replies at all. Suddenly a newspaper article comes out. It was the worst publicity they could get. Three days go by and I get a check,” said Bennett.

In fact, Michael Whitney of Keller Williams Coastal Realty, who handles Bennett’s rental, said the check came through UPS Express mail, and was overnighted.

Bennett went public last week, saying he rented a warehouse/office space to Clinton campaign workers for five days prior to the Jan. 8 presidential primary. He rented the space for $100 a day to be used as a campaign headquarters and dormitory.

------------------------
When Bennett’s story came out, other people contacted the Herald about unpaid bills from the Clinton campaign. Iowa resident Richard Reese is the owner of Top Job Services Inc., a cleaning service in Des Moines. His company was hired in November of last year, prior to the Iowa caucuses, to clean the Clinton campaign headquarters on a regular basis.
Reese provided the Herald with invoices and said he had not seen one penny of the $7,561.70 he is owed. As of Wednesday, he still hadn’t.

“I got a call on Sunday from the Clinton campaign who said they were putting the money in a two-day envelope,” said Reese. “Today is Wednesday, and I already got the mail, but there’s no check.”

Michael Whitney of Keller Williams Coastal Reality in Portsmouth holds a $500.00 check payable to Terry Bennett from the Hillary Clinton campaign. Bennett said he will now donate the check to the Barack Obama campaign.Rich Beauchesne photo

[MH1]

94. Heh, that seems fair to me!

And I appreciate the informative response rather than attacking ME for daring to suggest - gasp! - that Hillary may not be quite the ogre in this that she's being made out to be.

[Tatiana]

103. I don't think she is an ogre. However, she has to be aware of the FEC filings.

If she isn't, that would be highly responsible of her, as a leader.

All leaders should have budgets. At the end of every month, you need to look at how much you take in versus how much you are spending. At my job, I have a departmental budget. I authorize charges, purchases, etc. I rarely charge anything personally, nor do I personally cut checks to vendors we use. But every month, I review our end-of-month budget to see what we have outstanding, what is encumbered (waiting for invoice), what revenues we have coming in. I am not a finance person by education. But reviewing finances is part of any leadership/managerial position, IMO.

If Hillary isn't aware of this, her ignorance is just as bad as consciously stiffing these vendors.

[JerseygirlCT]

97. I hope that's the case, although on some level, doesn't that

speak to her executive abilities? Regardless of who is charged with paying those bills on time, wouldn't the buck stop with Clinton?

As you say, let's hope she makes it right ASAP.

[MH1]

99. Absolutely

And I am no Clinton supporter hiding behind an Obama avatar (as some of the repliers to my comment seem to think).

I just think even the best manager can have a f-- up; it depends what is done to make it right.

However some of the replies indicate she has known, for awhile about this; if that is true, then she probably does deserve some castigation.

[ORDem]

45. She borrowed or put on the backs of small businesses, 85% of her funds in Feb.! n/t

:kick:

[Cant trust em]

52. Did this come up again?

I first read about this happening with the Clinton campaign a few months ago with the janitorial service in Iowa. If you've read about this happening somewhere else can you post the link?

[Debi]

72. Here's the link

http://www.seacoastonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080209/NEWS/802090323

How many states since then? How many unpaid bills? $8.7 million.

[Debi]

55. Sorry, Raven - it's all true

Here's a link to her past due debts - you'll find em all there: school districts, cities, counties, health insurance, payroll taxes and all those small vendors.

http://query.nictusa.com/pres/2008/M3/C00431569/D_DEBTS_C00431569.html

[merh]

66. Doesn't she have personal wealth

Doesn't she have enough to pay these debts?

Isn't that what Romney did, invested his own money into his campaign?

[Debi]

73. You'd think she'd give a damn about the small vendors and school districts

or at least pay her health insurance bills or payroll taxes.

[Mike03]

59. She's desperate, and addicted to being POTUS. For that reason,

she's incurring huge debts. Have you ever been obsessed about something? I have, so I can't pass judgment on her.

[mudesi]

63. How many times do I have to tell you people that she is a SCUMBAG?

Her actions over the past weeks speak for themselves. Hillary Clinton is a despicable piece of trash and I'm embarrassed that she has a "D" next to her name.

Hillary Clinton: The new Joe Lieberman.

[JayFredMuggs]

67. I knew that before I ever read your posts, my dear friend

I have known that since travelgate, and her failed attempts to stitch together a patchwork of health insurance for a needy nation in 1993.......when she should have led the campaign for national health care.... back when premiums were $100 a month. Remember the good old days?

[bhikkhu]

70. In all fairness, this isn't much of a "deal breaker"

Bills owing can be paid, and the timing and intent are critical parts of the picture we don't get from the financial statements.

RW radio should have a field day, however. Not something anyone here should enjoy.

[PoliticalAmazon]

75. It's reflective of underlying character fault of HRC: she will do anything to win...

...and sacrifice anybody to win.

Some of these vendors aren't big companies. She should not have incurred the bills if she couldn't pay them in a timely manner.

She should take the $3million she has and pay the oldest debtors off first. Then she should take money from her own bank account and pay the rest.

THEN and ONLY THEN should she continue her campaign. If she doesn't have the money left to continue the campaign, then she needs to quit. It's not morally or ethically right to stiff vendors, making them wait for their money, and continue campaigning, racking up more debt.

[bhikkhu]

82. Perhaps the bills are part of a crisis point

But we don't have enough information from the financial statements to make a character judgment. Not that there are no other issues at hand...I'd rather be patient than unfair, though. The "narrative" of her campaign has yet to be completed.

[Debi]

77. I don't enjoy it - I'm pissed off about it.

Her campaign has not paid my local county fair grounds for an event in December - the fair grounds operating budget comes from my tax dollars.

Her campaign has not paid our local university's performing arts center for an event in December - the PAC receives funding from tuition that I pay.

Her campaign has not paid several Hy-Vee stores in Iowa for food catered on caucus night in January ($15,000). I shop at Hy-Vee. I will pay the incresed prices to cover the company's losses because of the Clinton camps refusal to pay.

WHY should I foot the bill for a campaign I don't support?

[bhikkhu]

87. Agreed, the details don't look good. She has not campaigned in my state (OR)

or I would probably be as upset, and probably have a bunch of similar stories.

But it is easier to form a judgment of character based upon these personal accounts than I would like, as they are the easiest thing to manufacture or misconstrue. I try to think - what if these are simple mistakes that any organization or business might make...it is conceivable. In either case the pattern seems to reflect a disorganized campaign, which is one reason to think she would do a similarly poor job of running the country...

[Debi]

90. First, make sure your local vendors get cash up front or at the very least a credit card payment

Don't let them take and IOU from the campaign!

Understand that Clinton became aware of the deficit spending being done by her campaign in January (when she wrote a $5 million personal check to her campaign and fired her manager). Her current manager is working for no pay. Her January reporting showed over $7 million in debt (several of her debts from the summer in Iowa - school districts - unpaid payroll taxes - unpaid staff). A month later her February reporting shows her $8.7 million in debt. The additional $1.7 million in debt incurred while Clinton was well aware of the past due amounts.

[stillcool]

80. I hate getting ripped off...don't you?

Clinton camp reimburses; landlord to donate check to Obama campaign
February 13, 2008 12:19 PM
http://www.seacoastonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080213/NEWS/80213011
by: Karen Dandurant Seacoast Online

Rochester doctor Terry Bennett has finally been paid by the Clinton campaign for rental of a Portsmouth building he owns. Now, he says he will donate the $500 check to Barack Obama’s campaign.
--------------------------

Bennett said he believes the only reason the Clinton campaign paid for renting his 236 Union St. storefront is because he became the “squeaky wheel,” contacting the Herald last week in frustration because he had not been paid for more than a month.

“Thirty days went by, with no replies to phone calls, e-mails, no replies at all. Suddenly a newspaper article comes out. It was the worst publicity they could get. Three days go by and I get a check,” said Bennett.

In fact, Michael Whitney of Keller Williams Coastal Realty, who handles Bennett’s rental, said the check came through UPS Express mail, and was overnighted.

Bennett went public last week, saying he rented a warehouse/office space to Clinton campaign workers for five days prior to the Jan. 8 presidential primary. He rented the space for $100 a day to be used as a campaign headquarters and dormitory.

------------------------
When Bennett’s story came out, other people contacted the Herald about unpaid bills from the Clinton campaign. Iowa resident Richard Reese is the owner of Top Job Services Inc., a cleaning service in Des Moines. His company was hired in November of last year, prior to the Iowa caucuses, to clean the Clinton campaign headquarters on a regular basis.
Reese provided the Herald with invoices and said he had not seen one penny of the $7,561.70 he is owed. As of Wednesday, he still hadn’t.

“I got a call on Sunday from the Clinton campaign who said they were putting the money in a two-day envelope,” said Reese. “Today is Wednesday, and I already got the mail, but there’s no check.”

Michael Whitney of Keller Williams Coastal Reality in Portsmouth holds a $500.00 check payable to Terry Bennett from the Hillary Clinton campaign. Bennett said he will now donate the check to the Barack Obama campaign.Rich Beauchesne photo

[mckeown1128]

113. kick. nt