The Game’s Not Over, Clinton Backers Agree

[question everything]

The New York Times

March 30, 2008
Campaign Notebook
The Game’s Not Over, Clinton Backers Agree
By JEFF ZELENY

MUNCIE, Ind. — In the height of basketball season, here in the heart of basketball country, it was perhaps inevitable that the state of the Democratic presidential race would be boiled down in championship terminology. Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton of New York stood in center court, with basketball hoops on all sides, as she offered up a sporting metaphor. “You know, we are in the fourth quarter and it is a close contest. We are running up and down. We are taking shots,” Mrs. Clinton said, speaking over a crescendo of applause. “And in the next months, we’re going to have 10 more contests, from Indiana to Pennsylvania — all the way to Puerto Rico! Millions of people will have a chance to have their voices heard and their votes counted.” The point? This game is not over.

As supporters of Senator Barack Obama of Illinois try gingerly — and, lately, not so gingerly — to plant the idea that the presidential nominating season has run its course and the time has come to declare a winner, there is at least one obstacle. The Democratic voters of Indiana and beyond, who have been little more than bystanders through four decades of presidential primaries, seem to be in no hurry for this campaign to end. At least not before their ballots are cast. And that has become a central argument for Mrs. Clinton as she implores voters to lend her candidacy a lifeline. In rally after rally in Indiana and North Carolina last week, voters booed and jeered when she mentioned that some Democratic leaders and unfriendly pundits believe she should leave the race.

(snip)

If hopes are diminishing among some supporters of Mrs. Clinton — privately, many concede they do not see a clear mathematical path to winning the nomination — that word has yet to reach the voters here who filled gymnasium after gymnasium on her two-day trip through Indiana. The mood of the rallies and town meetings was far from the grim picture portrayed in the endless whirl of political chatter on cable television.

(snip)

Roberta Weaver drove 90 miles to Fort Wayne from Kokomo and waited outside in 40-degree weather for nearly five hours to catch a glimpse of Mrs. Clinton as she walked into a diner for a discussion about the economy. When Ms. Weaver heard a reporter asking a few folks in the crowd about the outlook for the senator’s candidacy, she jumped in with a scolding. “No way, no way should she get out of the race,” said Ms. Weaver, a 70-year-old retired nurse. “I think people are deceiving themselves if they think that she can’t win this. She’s stronger and her support is much stronger than what many people think.”

Not long ago, in the days leading up to the primaries in Wisconsin, Ohio and Texas, it was hardly uncommon to come across Democrats attending Clinton campaign events out of what they described as a sense of nostalgia, with the unspoken worry that time could be running out to see her. But with the contest in Pennsylvania more than three weeks away, followed two weeks later by Indiana and North Carolina, much of that skeptical talk has been replaced by an enthusiasm for voters to have their voices heard in the historic campaign, whether they support Mrs. Clinton or Mr. Obama.

(snip)


http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/30/us/politics/30clinton.html?em&ex=1207022400&en=a78c82f326afbcde&ei=5087%0A

[Joe the Revelator]

1. Just where is this phantom support?

its a joke.

[buff2]

5. It's posts like this that

turns off Hillary voters from switching to Obama. IF he gets the nomination,don't you think he will need Hillary voters to win or are you so sure of him that you don't need us? Grow up.

[Joe the Revelator]

7. I'm not here to make friends. There is a very distinct obstacle between realistic democrats and

our ability to win the Whitehouse. This obstacle is Hillary's ego. I'm not going to enable bullshit in order to save some feelings. You didn't answer the question, where is this phantom support

[question everything]

13. I suppose calling it phantom support is applicable, when Texas changes the rules

so that even if Clinton won the plurality of the votes, Obama gets the delegates.

If I were a Texan who voted for Hillary in the primary and in the caucus, I would very much feel like my vote was "phantom", just as many of us felt in 2000 when Gore won the votes but lost the electoral ones.

And such a twist of real democracy is now being celebrated by Democrats who feel that when such rules fit their need, they are OK.

And then you and others wonder why many Clinton supporters say they will stay home or vote for McCain if she is not the nominee. Because in Texas, as it was in Nevada, she clearly won the majority of the votes, but bizarre rules snatched victory from her.

Many Democrats were fumed that the election was stolen in 2000 and 2004. What do you call the Texas and Nevada rules?

[buff2]

18. Isn't it odd that they only want THEIR votes to count

and to hell with the rest of the 10 states left yet to vote? How the hell can they think that's democracy? Also the stealing of Hillary's rightful claim to delegates is NOT going to make Hillary voters break their necks to support the messiah. No fucking way.

[Joe the Revelator]

28. "Rightful claim to delegates"???????

Are you even reading what you type? Its obvious you're not thinking before you type it.

[stillcool]

22. Wow...have you always had a problem

with the way other states run their Primaries?

http://graphics.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/politics/20080112_nevada_lawsuit.pdf
http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/01/17/a-feisty-bill-clinton-defends-nevada-lawsuit/
CLINTON ALLIES SUPPRESS THE VOTE IN NEVADA...
On Meet the Press on Sunday, Hillary Clinton said her campaign had nothing to do with a lawsuit--written about by Nation Editor Katrina vanden Heuvel--that threatens to prevent thousands of workers from voting in the Nevada caucus on Saturday.
Back in March, the Nevada Democratic Party agreed to set up caucus locations on the Vegas strip for low-income shift workers, many of them members of the state's influential Culinary Union, who commute long distances to work and wouldn't be able to get home in time to caucus. It was an uncontroversial idea until the Culinary Union endorsed Barack Obama and the Nevada State Education Association, whose top officials support Clinton, sued to shut down the caucus sites.
The Clinton camp played dumb until yesterday, when President Clinton came out in favor of the lawsuit.
Clinton's comments drew a heated response from D. Taylor, the head of Nevada's Culinary Union, on MSNBC's Hardball. "He is in support of disenfranchising thousands upon thousands of workers, not even just our members," Taylor said of Clinton. "The teachers union is just being used here. We understand that This is the Clinton campaign. They tried to disenfranchise students in Iowa. Now they're trying to disenfranchise people here in Nevada, who are union members and people of color and women."
Rank-and-file members of Nevada's teachers union also come out against the lawsuit filed by their leadership. "We never thought our union and Senator Clinton would put politics ahead of what's right for our students, but that's exactly what they're doing," the letter stated. "As teachers, and proud Democrats, we hope they will drop this undemocratic lawsuit and help all Nevadans caucus, no matter which candidate they support."
The lawsuit's opponents make a persuasive point. Creating obstacles to voting is what the GOP does to Democrats, not what Democrats should be doing to other Democrats.

Debate over location of Nevada caucus in court
Thursday, January 17, 2008
http://www.sunjournal.com/story/247770-3/National/Debate_over_location_of_Nevada_caucus_in_court/
LAS VEGAS (AP) - A last-minute federal court battle over caucus rules demonstrates just how important a tight three-way Democratic presidential contest in Nevada has become in the battle for momentum headed into Super Tuesday's votes.
At issue in a federal court hearing Thursday is whether Democratic caucuses will be held in nine casinos along the Las Vegas Strip. The special locations were designed to make it easier for housekeepers, waitresses and bellhops in the state's biggest industry to caucus at midday near their jobs rather than returning home to neighborhood precincts.
The rules were unanimously approved by the state Democratic party last March and ratified by the Democratic National Committee in August.But last Friday, six Democrats and a teachers union, which has ties to the Clinton campaign, sued to shut the sites on grounds they allocate too many delegates to one group. Of roughly 10,000 delegates to Nevada's presidential nominating convention, more than 700 could be
selected at casino caucuses, depending upon turnout, which could make them more valuable than some sparsely populated Nevada counties, the lawsuit said. Four plaintiffs are on the committee that approved the sites.
The DNC petitioned to join the suit on behalf of the state party Tuesday.
-------------------------------------------------------
By Monday, Bill Clinton was defending the lawsuit. "I think the rules ought to be the same for everybody," the former president told high school students near Las Vegas. The Culinary Union circulated a less subtle message on fliers to members: "Backers of Hillary Clinton are suing in court to take away our right to vote in the caucus." It's airing the same message in Spanish-langauge radio ads.

[Joe the Revelator]

26. Changed the rules, huh? You mean the rules that everyone in the party agreed to before the primaries

began? Those rules? Really?

[crispini]

41. the Texas election was conducted according to the rules

the rules of the Texas Democratioc party call for a primary and a caucus

And it is shameful, SHAMEFUL, for you to call it stolen when it was righfully won, ACCORDING TO THE RULES, by the hard work, involvement and committment of THOUSANDS of good Texas Democrats!

SHAME ON YOU!

[Zhade]

58. Just because you didn't grasp them doesn't mean Texas changed the rules.

NT!

[babylonsister]

48. Can you answer the question? Where's the support? nt

[Zhade]

57. Posts like that turn you off, but clinton's lies about sniper fire don't?

How is that even logical?

[LiberalAndProud]

Realistically it would be stupid to stop before the next round

of primaries. If I were in PA or one of the other upcoming states, I'd sure as HELL get pissed off if it stopped at this juncture. It wouldn't make sense on any level. Obama is recruiting boots-on-the-ground for the GE, so it's not hurting him.

The only mudslinging going on in this campaign at this moment is happening on the intertubes, and a good majority of Americans are thankfully immune from that. Didn't you get the memo? chill.

[question everything]

27. Right. I think that the ones who want her to drop already voted

and don't care about the rest of the country. Which is not the way we, liberals, operate but then...

[splat]

51. Where? The Net is full of young men; a lot of older people just aren't visible till voting day

[marmar]

2. I think Mariah Carey says it best:

But it's just a
Sweet, sweet fantasy baby
When I close my eyes
You come and you take me
On and on and on
It's so deep in my daydreams
But it's just a sweet sweet fantsy baby

[loveangelc]

3. haha.

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

6. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Joe the Revelator]

9. Aren't you the one who was crying for unity up thread?

Pathetic hypocrite.

[OzarkDem]

12. Yes, we have

This too shall pass.

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[davidinalameda]

16. where do I sign up

[buff2]

20. How about the first recruiting center

near you? That would be a good start.

[davidinalameda]

25. can't

still have that DADT law in effect, which was signed into law by Bill Clinton

go figure

[Forkboy]

30. LOL

:rofl:

[davidinalameda]

36. I will take your laughter as a compliment

:rofl:

[Forkboy]

43. You should.

When it's against someone I include snark with it. :D

[Zhade]

59. Oh, SNAP.

From one queer to another, thank you for that!

[davidinalameda]

66. I do my best

and you're very welcome

[Rosa Luxemburg]

8. If Clinton cannot win on the issues and is fabricating the rest then

it isn't worth her carrying on. Quite frankly, I wouldn't want a president who is basically a fraud.

[anamandujano]

15. What is the best legislature Obama got passed while state senator?

[Rosa Luxemburg]

17. Hillary didn't pass anything before she was a real senator

and even then?

[anamandujano]

21. You can't answer my question?

[DemBones DemBones]

31. You need to read up on Obama's political mentor, Emil Jones, Jr.,

and how he made Obama a U.S. Senator. You ought to look into the dirty tricks BO pulled to win his state Senate seat and also the coincidence of BO's opponents for the U.S. Senate having their divorce records become public,
destroying them politically.

Obama is a snake as well as a snake oil salesman.

[DemBones DemBones]

32. You need to read up on Obama's political mentor, Emil Jones, Jr.,

and how he made Obama a U.S. Senator. You ought to look into the dirty tricks BO pulled to win his state Senate seat and also the coincidence of BO's opponents for the U.S. Senate having their divorce records become public,
destroying them politically.

Obama is a snake as well as a snake oil salesman.

[buff2]

35. Ah........

but all he has to do is flash that big toothed smile and they all faint like he is Jesus in the flesh. It's totally disgusting. :puke:

[anamandujano]

42. I think she went bye bye to another thread to spread her knowledge.

[Zhade]

60. You need to read up on reality, considering you thought Terri Shiavo still had a cerebral cortex.

Your wealth of ignorance is astounding.

[anamandujano]

40. Psssst! It has something to do with your word "fraud."

(Emil) Jones appointed Obama sponsor of virtually every high-profile piece of legislation, angering many rank-and-file state legislators who had more seniority than Obama and had spent years championing the bills.

"I took all the beatings and insults and endured all the racist comments over the years from nasty Republican committee chairmen," state Senator Rickey Hendon, the original sponsor of landmark racial profiling and videotaped confession legislation yanked away by Jones and given to Obama, complained to me at the time. "Barack didn't have to endure any of it, yet, in the end, he got all the credit.

"I don't consider it bill jacking," Hendon told me. "But no one wants to carry the ball 99 yards all the way to the 1-yard line and then give it to the halfback who gets all the credit and the stats in the record book."

During his seventh and final year in the Illinois Senate, Obama's stats soared. He sponsored a whopping 26 bills passed into law-including many he now cites in his presidential campaign when attacked as inexperienced. It was a stunning achievement that started him on the path of national politics, and he couldn't have done it without Jones.

http://dallasobserver.com/2008-02-28/news/obama-and-me/2

[question everything]

34. "Bread-and-butter issues"

Here is another story from her visit to Muncie

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080330/LOCAL18/803300343/1195/LOCAL18

"Bread-and-butter issues"

State Sen. Jean Breaux, D-Indianapolis, was introducing Clinton to the revved-up crowd at the high school. "In the final analysis, this is not about race or gender or ministers or memories," Breaux said, referring to the two controversies that have stirred the Democratic primary recently: the comments by Obama's former pastor, the Rev. Jeremiah Wright, and the comments Clinton made about landing in Bosnia to sniper fire. "It's about issues, bread-and-butter issues," Breaux said.

And it was those issues Clinton focused on during her trip to Indiana.

"I think this election, particularly here in Indiana, is about jobs, jobs, jobs, jobs, jobs, jobs, and how we're going to ensure that the economy works for everyone," she said.

She promised to provide health insurance that people can afford, make college more affordable, help families affected by mortgage foreclosures, invest in building manufacturing and eliminate tax incentives that benefit companies that ship jobs overseas.

"That's not being anti-business," Clinton said. "That's being pro-American."

Instead of using tax dollars to subsidize oil companies, she said, the nation should launch a drive, similar to President John F. Kennedy's challenge to go to the moon, to develop high-mileage vehicles that boost manufacturing at the same time they reduce America's dependence on foreign oil.

[TahitiNut]

10. It'll take two documented miracles before she can be named a Saint.

I suppose that could help offset the sabotage of National Health Care. :shrug:

[Name removed]

11. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Catherina]

19. I have no pity for her and the beating she's going to take

since she's persisting in her vanity run.

[buff2]

24. I have to say that NObama supporters

are the most obnoxious,uncaring group of people I've ever seen. I never hear you talk about bush and his band of thieves like this.It's like you all have multiple orgasms bashing Hillary and making fun of her. Posts like yours and the rest of the Kool-Aid drinkers is what gives America such a bad name.....along with all the repukes.

[Forkboy]

33. Errr...you're not exactly one to talk.

That would be like me complaining that there's too much snark on DU.

[buff2]

39. Yes I've done my share..

only because I'm sick of all the Hillary bashing.

[Forkboy]

46. So you really shouldn't complain.

Everyone here could excuse their posts as being the result of the other side's bashing.

Unlike me, who excuses his as the result of me just being a bastard. :P

[Zhade]

63. Yes, pointing out her lies, race-baiting, and attempts to cheat are SOOOO bashing.

Get a fucking clue.

[Catherina]

53. You'll get over it.

4000 dead soldiers and you want me to care about poor Hillary and her monstrous ambition? I don't get any orgasms from bashing her but I will get an orgasm when she's finally out of this race so I won't have to hear all the faux outrage frm supporters who are even more delusional than she is.

You know what gives America a bad name? It's waging illegal wars while millions of so-called feminists care more about the symbolism of getting a woman in office than about the victims of the present and coming wars she signed up for.

If you want faux tears for Hillary, you'll get them from one of our Iraqi victims sooner than you'll get them from me.

[Zhade]

61. I'm looking forward to the day the Liars for clinton Club have to shut the fuck up or leave.

It's going to be awesome not to have assholes disconnected from reality lying all over the board to boost their failed lying candidate!

[grantcart]

23. Its an unusual situation because as long as supporters are still supporting

candidates don't want to stop and don't think they should.

Usually money is the deciding factor and this year there is big money for two candidates,

[greyghost]

45. That's the bottom line, Hillary quits when her war chest dwindles.

[Zhade]

64. Considering she keeps stiffing people on payments, isn't that now?

NT!

[greyghost]

67. LOL, You betcha.

[bhikkhu]

49. Which is fine. The rules allow for primaries in all 50 states.

I don't see a problem with this, and I don't see that Barack sees a problem with this.

A whole batch of back and forth nonsense about candidates needing to withdraw. The game goes on anyway, they can play as long as supporters are backing them.

[Lucinda]

29. Thanks for the post QE!

K&R

[NanceGreggs]

37. "World is Indeed FLAT - Flat-Earthers Agree!"

That doesn't actually make the world flat, does it?

[JeffR]

38. Oh, well, if Roberta Weaver drove 90 miles from Kokomo

then obviously everything's still totally up in the air. Thanks for this thoroughly helpful post.

[boppers]

47. Roberta Weaver is an unstoppable force.

Do not question her. She can slay millions with a glare.

[JeffR]

50. I surrender.

I liked Obama, but if Roberta has a contrary opinion, that's good enough for me.
:scared:

[Yes We Did]

44. This is historic but it's not close... I wish her and the media would stop...

deluding themselves and the public. She has a 5 percent chance of winning this thing even if it should get to the credentials committee.

[splat]

52. And if Obama stumbles?

[ampad]

54. He has supposedly stumbled several times

It hasn't changed the fact that Hillary is not going to win this thing. If Hillary is such a great politician then she would be winning on her own merits instead of hoping against hope that her opponent will "stumble."

[dkf]

55. because Hillary kneecaps him you mean?

Not gonna happen.

[Zhade]

56. Mrs. Weaver, you have exerted precious effort for a proven liar.

Someone send her the video proving clinton's Bosnia lies!

[intaglio]

62. Another "we hate Obama - he's beating our beloved" thread n/t

[billyoc]

65. ...'til the fundraising dries up. nt