I may be shot for asking this, but remember when some people blamed the gays for us losing in 2004?

[BigBearJohn]

I realize that a good majority of you will probably just see this as just another
crazy Hillbot trying to rain on your parade, (and I can't honestly say I blame you),
but I am hoping a few might be willing to calmly and rationally discuss the real-world
ramifications of what I am about to address. If not, just put my head on the chopping
block and let it sink.

The conservative religious right supposedly rallied against all the gay-loving
democrats and their outrage brought them out in huge numbers to vote against the
Democrats, right?

Well let me ask you this: What are those voters from the conservative religious
right going to do if the following meme catches fire across the nation?

TODAY I received the following admonition from one of the conservative religious
wing-nuts down the street from me. I can only imagine that as the legion of
adoring Obama fans grows larger and larger, it will only serve to feed this meme.

According to The Book of Revelations:
The anti-Christ will be a man, in his 40's, of MUSLIM descent, who will deceive
the nations with persuasive language, and have a MASSIVE Christ-like appeal....
the prophecy says that people will flock to him and he will promise false hope
and world peace, and when he is in power, will destroy everything. Is it OBAMA??
I STRONGLY URGE each one of you to repost this as many times as you can! Each
opportunity that you have to send it to a friend or media outlet..do it!
If you think I am crazy..I'm sorry but I refuse to take a chance on the
'unknown' candidate

[glowing]

1. Yeah, I got that too. and they had used his name backwards to spell out

something strange.. Whatever.. If they want to be nutty, let them.

[bluerum]

2. No - I remember when the repuglicans used devisive wedge issues and scare

tactics to frighten americans into voting against their interests. It's a little like herding sheep.

BTW - George "the devil" Bush is the anti-christ. There can't be two of them - revelations is flat wrong.

So there.

[JoFerret]

9. You make it sound past tense

...as if in some far distant time in history. Would it were so.

We will see it again. It may not work.

But "patriotism" will play big. Flag factories etc.

[bluerum]

67. Yes. See OP.

[cali]

3. This isn't 2004 and it's important to look

at the meta trends. The religious right has become increasingly fractured and disillusioned over the past few years. This isn't going to fly.

[zanne]

10. I wholeheartedly agree.

No, this isn't 2004. The war has now dragged on for five years, the economy is in the pits and people can't afford to see their doctor.

In 2004, Republicans could still put on a brave face and rally around Bush. No matter how much the MSM pushes for McCain, people are really fed up with the Republican party.

[cali]

4. self-delete

[cali]

5. self-delete dupe

[flor de jasmim]

6. As massive numbers of new and previously disenchanted voters come into play,...

the effect of messages like this will be greatly diminished.

It is amazing that there are people who seem to simultaneously believe that he is Muslim and has a "crazy pastor"!

[JoFerret]

7. I do hope that is correct

And that they actually turn out before being turned off by something unforeseen.

[OzarkDem]

43. Keep dreaming

There aren't that many of them.

And how do you account for the Dem voters in MI and FL who are being disenfranchised by Obama?

[bklyncowgirl]

8. The anti-Christ will be a man, in his 40's, of MUSLIM descent????

I'm no expert on the Book of Revelations, I went to Catholic school and frankly, Catholics tend to regard it as, well not part of the core message of the New Testament (my religion teachers sort of compared it to the writings of Nostradamus and suggested that maybe St. John the Divine was under the influence of hallucinagens) but I must ask how did a reference to MUSLIM get into a Biblical book that was written several hundred years before the birth of Muhammad?

Oh right, it's prophetic. Or someone didn't do their homework.

The simple truth is that foaming at the mouth religious conservatives are not going to vote for any Democrat anyway. That does not mean that Democrats should dismiss any outreach to more moderate new style evangelicals who are as concerned about poverty and environmental devestation as they are about abortion and the rapture.

[readmoreoften]

15. And how can you be 'of Muslim descent'?

Muslim isn't an ethnicity, it's an evangelical religion that people convert to and abandoned.

[readmoreoften]

17. Also. Wasn't Mohammed born 500 years after Christ?

Does Revelations pre-date Islam? Not sure about that.

[DerekJ]

22. 600+ I think. N/T

[bklyncowgirl]

24. I'm pretty sure it was written somewhere from 50-200 years after the death of Jesus

From Wikipedia--caution advised, of course, but this seems to jibe with my understanding of the date.

"According to early tradition, the writing of this book took place near the very end of Domitian's reign, around 95 or 96. Others contend for an earlier date, 68 or 69, in the reign of Nero or shortly thereafter.<11> The majority of modern scholars also use these dates.<12> Those who are in favor of the later date appeal to the external testimony of the Christian father Irenaeus (d. 185), who stated that he had received information relative to this book from those who had seen John face to face. He says that "it was seen no very long time since, but almost in our day, towards the end of Domitian's reign" (A.H. 5.30.3), who according to Eusebius had started the persecution referred to in the book; however, recent scholars dispute that the book is situated in a time of ongoing persecution and have also doubted the reality of a large-scale Domitian persecution.<13>

Some exegetes (Paul Touilleux, Albert Gelin, André Feuillet) distinguish two dates: publication (under Domitian) and date of the visions (under Vespasian). Various editors would have a hand in the formation of the document, according to these theories. The dating of the work is still widely debated in the scholarly community."

Mohammed was of course not born for several hundred years after the latest possible date for the Book of Revelations, so the idea that an Antichrist of Muslim descent could have been written about in the Book of Revelations is ridiculous--that doesn't meen that some knuckle draggers won't believe it of course.

[Pacifist Patriot]

48. Revelations was most likely written during or after the reign of Nero...

so circa 60-70AD to perhaps 100-120AD.

Mohammed was born around 570AD so let's just say roughly 500 years later.

Anyone applying prophetic interpretation to Revelations has absolutely no clue what the book was about. It was a scathing attack on the Roman Empire and any predictions were wishful thinking for their downfall.

Totally bizarre book that very nearly was not even included in the canon.

All of the intervening Christian eschatological prophecy derived from this strange text strikes me as even more bizarre than the original contents. Seriously, unless someone is familiar with the genre and the historical and sociological context of the writing I think they should skip it and go read a good Sci Fi novel instead. ;)

[theredpen]

56. What he said

If the "prophecies" in Revelation happened at all, they happened in the 1st or 2nd century AD.

The book was written in code so that the Romans wouldn't figure out that it was about them.

[Texas Hill Country]

64. it is actually supposed to be a man of middle eastern decent IIRC, so they are slightly bending it

but do you think that is gonna matter to a good number of religious right, gay and muslim fearing white people from middle america... NOPE

[Love Bug]

11. The book of Revelation doesn't say that

If your neighbor is using the book of Revelation to suggest Obama is the Anti-Christ, than he's an idiot. No where in Revelations does it say the Anti-Christ is a Muslim nor does it give his age. I would answer him by asking him to state chapter and verse where it says any of those things he claims. He's typical of the average Fundy who will claim inerrency of the Scriptures but who has little knowledge of them. All he's doing is repeating stuff he's heard from the pulpit. He's smearing a man who's probably a better Christian than he is. While you're at it, you might want to ask him about that commandment about not bearing false witness. Asshat.

[Warren Stupidity]

12. OMG OBAMA IS MUSLIM!!!11!!1!1!11!!!!!

thanks for sharing that rightwing crap. By the way, this 'meme' has been circulating for years. Oh, and the folks who blamed 'the gays' for Senator Kerry's defeat were fucktards.

[theredpen]

55. ARE YOU SERIES???

[MADem]

13. That's probably a GOTV warm-up for the unenthusiastic fundies.

They've gotta rile 'em up to get them moving for Popeye!

They're not too sharp, though--they should have tried to emphasize the HOPE, and maybe throw in CHANGE and BELIEVE in there somehow, as though that's somehow....oooooh ..... portentious!

On the bright side, they aren't calling him a Muslim in this thing, they're saying he is of Muslim DESCENT!

:rofl:

It's just so riDEEEEEEEculous!!!!

[DerekJ]

14. That conservative religious nut is a liar too.

Just ask him where in the book of revelation it said of a Muslim descent.

[BigBearJohn]

16. Well, you all bring up some excellent points, and I was going to dismiss this meme, but --

I just did a Google search on "Obama and antichrist"

Search Results 1 - 10 of about 608,000 for obama and the antichrist

This tends to make me believe that people are discussing it.

Just to be clear, I am in no way agreeing that he is the
anti-christ. I am just bringing up the point that if you
get a lot of religious zealots BELIEVING in this, it will
bring their numbers out to the voting booth to make sure
McCain wins.

Go ahead and scoff at this, but after having just reviewed
the stuff on Google... it is out there in a huge way.

[Warren Stupidity]

18. Who exactly do you think the people taken in by this were going

to vote for anyway? Did you somehow think they were going to vote Democratic?

[Silver Gaia]

23. Ha! Now, that's a good point... EXCEPT I think that a lot of the

right-wing religious conservatives would simply STAY HOME, since they really don't like McCain, anyhow. However, given a choice between McCain and the Anti-Christ... hmmmm... McCain? Anti-Christ? Unless they're rapture nuts aching for the Apocalypse to come, then they'd probably vote for the doddering old fool, McCain... out of fear.

[dansolo]

29. As opposed to Hillary?

I wouldn't use that argument. Republicans will come out in droves to prevent Hillary from ever being president.

[Silver Gaia]

35. I don't see what Hillary has to do with this particular scenario.

These are ALL just speculative "what-if" scenarios, independent of one another. Who really knows what crazy right-wing nuts will or won't do...

[Silver Gaia]

21. So, please do your part to educate them? See my post below. Thanks! n/t

[ecstatic]

69. And you'd find the same amount of results for Bush antichrist, Cheney, etc.

The only person who is probably exempt is HRC. :rofl:

[susankh4]

19. Not to worry....

with Hillary and Bill on his team, Barack will defelct this stuff just fine. Bill is da master at throwing the shit right back at 'em.

[Silver Gaia]

20. It is absolutely correct that there is no mention of "a man, in his 40's...

of MUSLIM descent" in Revelation. This is absurd. Here are some FACTS to arm yourself with when dealing with these idiots:

The book of Revelation was composed near the end of the rule of the Roman emperor Domitian, which puts it somewhere around 81-96 C.E. (means "Common Era," and now used instead of A.D.)

Muhammad was born in 570 C.E., and became a prophet in 610 C.E. The establishment of the Islamic community is dated to 622 C.E. Prior to this there was no Islamic religion, and hence no Muslims to be included in the book of Revelation over 500 years earlier.

This is some really crazy bullshit. Educate these people! And if they claim it to be there because Revelation is supposedly PROPHECY, please ask them to quote you chapter and verse exactly where they see this. I'd love to know that (because it's simply NOT there)!

[SparkyMac]

25. It was Jeane Dixon in the 1960s -

Who fleshed out the prophecy of Revelations and said the Great Beast would be from the East -- born in the 1960s and make himself known in his 40s.

[Silver Gaia]

28. Thanks for that addition. I was trying to think of who it was who did that.

[SparkyMac]

73. Not exactly as I remembered -- but here's a quote

One of Jeane Dixon's most startling predictions is this:

A child born somewhere in the Middle East shortly after 7:00 A.M. on February 5, 1962, will revolutionize the world. Before the close of the century he will bring together all mankind in one all-embracing faith. This will be the foundation of a new Christianity, with every sect and creed united through this man, who will walk among the people to spread the wisdom of the almighty power. Mankind will begin to feel the great force of this man in the early 1980's, and during the subsequent years the world as we know it will be reshaped and revamped into one without wars or suffering. His power will grow greatly until 1999, at which time the peoples of this earth will probably discover the full meaning of the vision.

http://ldolphin.org/daniel/daniel04.html

[DerekJ]

26. There is nothing in the book of the revelation that even remotely can be used to conclude that.

at least according to my readings.
However, I know damn well how the church can twist the words in the bible to make it fit , whatever they want it to fit. And people just say Amen.

[Silver Gaia]

37. Of course they will. I grew up with people like this... I know them well.

But it's always helpful when confronting ignorance to be armed with facts. IMO.

[InfiniteNether]

47. True that

And these idiots don't even read the bible. They can't even state the 10 commandments. So I think it is entirely plausible that the very same people will believe that email about a "muslim antichrist", even though "muslim" or "islam" isn't in the bible.

[Autumn]

58. The church is a master at twisting word

the rapture is not in the bible and look how many believe in that crap.

[JerseygirlCT]

27. It was stupid then, it still is stupid

McCain is not going to draw these nuts in the same way that Bush did. And we're supposed to be concerned about Obama because of their bigotry about his middle name and father's religion?

Sorry, I don't cave to their obscenity.

I will continue to support the stronger and better candidate - Obama.

[MethuenProgressive]

30. There are no mentions of Islam in the Bible at all, of course.

Please don't post that crap here.

[DerekJ]

31. TA DA !!! I found it

Man!! You try to search the web for something about Islam you get bombarded by 1000 hate sites first.
Ask them of that sounds like a religion where the Anti-Christ will comes from:
Quran (Al-'Imran: 42 - 60)
(42) And when the angels said to Mary: 'God has chosen you and purified you. He has chosen you above all women of the worlds. (43) Mary, be obedient to your Lord, prostrate and bow with those who bow.' (44) This is from the news of the unseen. We reveal it to you (Prophet Muhammad). You were not present when they cast their quills to see which of them should look after Mary, nor were you present when they were disputing. (45) When the angels said: 'O Mary, God gives you glad tidings of a Word (Be) from Him, whose name is Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary. He shall be honored in this world and in the Everlasting Life - and he shall be among those who are close. (46) He shall speak to people in his cradle and when he is aged, and shall be among the righteous.' (47) 'Lord,' she said, 'how can I bear a child when no human being has touched me?' He replied: 'Such is the Will of God. He creates whom He will. When He decrees a thing, He only says: "Be," and it is. (48) He will teach him the Book, the Wisdom, the Torah and the Gospel, (49) to be a Messenger to the Children of Israel, (saying): "I have come to you with a sign from your Lord. From clay, I will create for you the likeness of a bird. I shall breathe into it and by the permission of God, it shall be a bird. I shall heal the blind, and the leper, and raise the dead to life by the permission of God. I shall tell you what you ate and what you store in your houses. Surely, that will be a sign for you, if you are believers. (50) Likewise confirming the Torah that has been before me and to make lawful to you some of the things you have been forbidden. I bring you a sign from your Lord, therefore, fear God and obey me. (51) God is my Lord and your Lord, therefore, worship Him. This is the Straight Path".' (52) When (Prophet) Jesus felt their disbelief, he said: 'Who will be my helpers in the way of God?' The disciples replied: 'We are the helpers of God. We believe in God. Bear witness that we are submitters (Muslims). (53) Lord, we have believed in what You sent down and followed the Messenger. Write us among Your witnesses.' (54)

[Silver Gaia]

32. ? You found what? What does this passage from the Qur'an have to do

with the book of Revelation and the Anti-Christ? This is talking about Jesus, who is accepted as a prophet in Islam.

[DerekJ]

34. My point exactly. Why would the Anti-Christ come from a religion that revers Jesus in that

manner?
Many don't know that, I admit that I didn't know that, until I started reading about Islam (and many other religions) .

[Silver Gaia]

38. OK. I get where you're coming from now, but I don't know if it would

impress people like this very much. It could be useful with some, though.

[Silver Gaia]

40. Adding: I really don't think this is anything to be all that alarmed about,

though. It's just something born of ignorance, and is important to counter at that level. IMO. I don't think it's anything to be all that worried about should Obama become the nominee.

Edit: to correct typo

[DerekJ]

45. I agree, They are desperate.

[mindfulNJ]

33. deleted

replied to wrong message

[ellacott]

39. There were people who said that Reagan was the anti-christ

One of the reasons they said this is because he has 6 letters in each of his names.

There are some people who want to believe this about Obama because they are looking for something. If those people are familiar with the Book of Revelations they would know that it says that the Anti-Christ is also a military man.

[madrchsod]

46. the reagan klan did`t want bush because

he sat on the "throne at the bohemian grove". so he was the one world anti-christ.

[izzybeans]

36. Blame the bigots not those they target with hate speech.

[SoCalDem]

41. If I recall correctly, STATES put obnoxious stuff on their ballots

as red meat for the knuckle-draggers..as they always do.. to get them to race to the polls to "protect marriage" from the eeeeeevil gays..

The states with republicans legislatures will always do this stuff.. Count on them to make sure there is abortion, gays, guns, immigration stuff , in any combination..on every presidential year state ballot..

[Silver Gaia]

42. Yep. You recall correctly. Or at least we agree.

This is, IMO, of much more concern in regard to bringing the RWingers out in droves.

[surfermaw]

44. I don't think any one other than a few nuts would let that change their votes,

Bill clinton was call the same thing.

[bullwinkle428]

49. Jerry Falwell, before his "tragic" passing, said that the anti-Christ

would be Jewish!!

It's obvious these bigots are willing to alter the little details of their message just fit the circumstances at hand...they know their sheeple followers will eat up whatever they slop in front of them!

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

50. So we should be courting the asshole wing-nut vote?

These people wouldn't be voting Democratic if Sen. Jesus Christ were our nominee. At gunpoint, I couldn't be forced to care less about what they think and how they'll vote. They represent a tiny slice of the electorate who, I repeat, WILL NEVER VOTE DEOMOCRATIC.

[rox63]

51. Islam would not exist for several centuries after the Book of Revelation was written

Whoever is spreading this doesn't know squat about scripture. (neither do I, but I know this much)

[LiberalAndProud]

52. What would you suggest?

How do we counter the religious right? You are correct, they found a wedge issue in 2004. They have found another in 2008. They will find another in 2012. I don't belittle the problem, I don't deny it. I know that the religious end-time rallies will be very active in October in my state, because that is what they do.

We may not know how they will attack us, but they will attack us. The Rapture is the never-ending storyline. I honestly don't know ... I guess we have to outvote the Armagedonists? Because I really don't think they plan to join us "gay-loving democrats" in this, or any other endeavor, do you?

[Skwmom]

53. This is bunk.

I asked my neighbor, a minister well versed on the bible, and he said the antichrist could be a man or woman. He really believes in Revelations and he SUPPORTS OBAMA. So, I'm not worried.

[theredpen]

54. Hit "Reply All"

And calmly point out that 1) There is no indication that the anti-Christ in Revelation is Muslim and 2) that the anti-Christ is unstoppable and will take over the world. If Obama is, in fact, the anti-Christ then there's no point in doing anything because his global takeover is the will of God. Beyond the fact that you are thwarting God's will by trying not to elect the anti-Christ, you are working against the return of Jesus which will happen as a result of the anti-Christ. So, again, if Obama is the anti-Christ, then voting against him is voting against Jesus.

That'll tweak 'em.

[PylesMalfunction]

60. This is the exact reply

I sent to a Fundie who sent this BS to me. It worked like a charm. :D

[theredpen]

63. Cool!

I hadn't "road tested" it. :D

[PylesMalfunction]

65. I'm not saying they saw the light!

But they sure shut up and I heard sputtering noises were heard in the vicinity. :D

[Iggo]

57. Ell...oh....effing...ell.

This is the stupidest thing I've heard all day.

[Irishonly]

59. It's Ridiculous

Someone a lot more versed in Biblical study probably needs to answer this. I know enough about Revelations to be dangerous with it and not informative. I started to research because I am sure I will be getting this flaming email soon and I usually try to kill it with facts. Snopes doesn't have it up on their main page but there message board has quite a long discussion about it. Someone wrote that Revelations was written before Islam was created. It didn't ring quite right so I am going to be a lazy researcher and talk to my pastor. The woman is brilliant and her PHD is Biblical studies.

[Silver Gaia]

66. I'm the one who posted the dates, Irishonly. I assure you they are correct.

I'm not a pastor, but my B.A. is in religious studies and I'm currently in grad school in the same field, so I am a scholar, not of the Bible in particular, but of religion. The dates for the birth of Muhammad and the founding of Islam are well-documented, as are the accepted dates for the composition of the book of Revelation. It was canonized as a part of the New Testament long before the birth of Muhammad as well. I'm sure your pastor will agree with these points as they are not in dispute as far as I'm aware.

[LiberalAndProud]

61. Maybe we could tell the truth.

Matthew 7:16 (King James Version)
Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?






And we can hope...


Matthew 5: 9 (King James Version)
Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.

[Mooney]

62. We'll never reach those people.

If that e-mail becomes anything like a mainstream belief, then we have a lot more to worry about than who our candidate is. It would be strong evidence that the drinking water supply has been spiked with angel dust.

Both Obama and Clinton can make the case that they can attract some crossover Republican votes, but the people who take that e-mail seriously will never, ever vote for any Democrat, no matter who it is. They're still despondent about Huckabee dropping out.

There are some votes we're just not going to get, no matter who the nominee is.

[XemaSab]

68. Tell those fuckers that Islam hadn't BEEN INVENTED

when the book of Revelations was written. :P

[Liberal Veteran]

71. See? That just proves how accurate the prophecy was!!!!!!

It predicted the Islamic faith before Islam even existed!!!!

:rofl:

[walldude]

70. So you think the Obama is the anti-christ message

will resonate?

Seriously? :crazy:

[anonymous171]

72. Obama could turn this around. Many fundies would vote for the anti-christ,

since his ascent would eventually lead to the Second Coming.

[noel711]

74. No, never heard that meme about gays...

AND... never ever trust anyone who claims to quote
scripture from the book of RevelationS!

If you really know the Bible, you know the last book
of the New TEstament is Revelation... singular.

It's only the ignorant who don't know how to think
who repeat such stupidity..

And the Revelation of St. John says no such thing...