Hillary is $2.7 million in debt, Barack has $31 million, won twice as many states. . .

[wndycty]

. . . has a lead of 150 pledged delegates, is showing momentum with the super delegates and the media wants to treat the race like its even? I ask you simply, if the shoe were on the other foot would the media be treating this race the same way? Oh Obama, he is so lucky to be a Black man running for president, Lord knows the media treats him much better than they would a white male in the same position.

[havocmom]

1. . marking for later

so I can come back and see...

[wndycty]

3. Simple question. If Obama were in Hillary's shoes how much pressure would be on him. . .

. . .to drop out?

[havocmom]

8. . marking because I don't disagree with you at all on this

just wanna see which supporters of the defunct Clinton campaign are gonna not get the message ;)

[BuyingThyme]

12. He would be painted as an inexperienced trouble maker.

[wndycty]

15. Yup double standards

:kick:

[niceypoo]

51. The FEC says she has $33 Million as of a month ago...

Which is the latest official number...

...more dishonest race baiting from Obama supporter

http://herndon1.sdrdc.com/cgi-bin/cancomsrs/

http://query.nictusa.com/pres/2008/M3/C00431569.html

[havocmom]

60. So, why hasn't she paid the insurance bill for insured campaign workers?

And she should pay her campaign debts...

Again, she keeps providing examples of questionable judgment.

[niceypoo]

62. This is another non issue...

...made up by Obama supporters to smear her with. Obama supporters, like republicans, comb through every iota of data they can find looking for something, anything, to smear with.

This is what republicans do when they can't run on issues, they throw slime, because they just aren't interested in talking about real issues.

[havocmom]

64. I am not an Obama supporter; and employers who don't pay their group insurance

are putting employees at risk and not fulfilling their employee's compensation! How is THAT a non-issue?

[Debi]

70. Compare the debts of each campaign at www.FEC.gov

Clinton has debt going back 120 days from Iowa and New Hampshire. Obama does not. Clinton has more debt that she has cash on hand.

This is what republicans do - they spend money they don't have and blame others for their debt.

[northzax]

90. can I quote you on that?

This is what republicans do - they spend money they don't have and blame others for their debt.

does this mean you oppose Senator Obama's plan to help homeowners who spent money they didn't have on their mortgages and now want relief? you know, since they are republicans and all? interesting.

[Debi]

97. If quoting me make you feel good about your candidate you go right ahead n/t

[northzax]

100. ok, so you support a candidate who favors

policies that bail out people who fit this description: "This is what republicans do - they spend money they don't have and blame others for their debt. "

just want to make that clear. got it.

[Debi]

67. $21 million of that $33 million is earmarked for the general election and can't be spent

on primary expenses.


She has only $11 million in COH
She has $8.7 million in past due debts
She owes herself $5 million from the personal loan in January.

http://online.wsj.com/public/article/SB120612639749954097-AGkUP2FET7GMSvWMQNALp4C9eLA_20080420.html?mod=tff_main_tff_top

[Why Syzygy]

102. That's isn't the bottom line. $25 Mil is earmarked

for the GE and she owes a bunch more $$$$$. The list was posted here. I don't have time to find it now, but I'll provide it later unless someone else does.

[northzax]

2. so win pennsylvania

he's had three weeks to go head to head with a broke candidate who apparently everyone hates. All he has to do is win. three weeks and an unlimited war chest. just win. win a big state primary, and teh race is over on Wednesday. it's really that simple.

[flor de jasmim]

4. How much would he have to win by for Hillary to fold her cards?

[Why Syzygy]

10. She says she won't. She wants to make a ruckus at the convention.

Just as she is doing in Texas but on a MUCH larger scale.

That's why she's staying.

[gorekerrydreamticket]

93. She's going to be boo'ed at the convention...the Clinton "magic touch" will be gone forever...

if she keeps going like she's going...

[Why Syzygy]

99. Their new legacy . the BOO corner. They can join their buddie GW there.

Did you see him get boo'd at the baseball game? heh American citizens have finally become embolden. We can thank GW for that. No More Trash.

[northzax]

16. trust me, if he wins

the superdelegates will take him on and it will be all over except the shouting.

but seriously, don't you wonder? if he loses Pennsylvania, that will be three straight big state primaries where he has had at least three weeks run in time, more money and better organization. Why can't he win the vote in Ohio, Texas or Pennsylvania? don't you wonder that, at all? he has not won the popular vote in any state the two of them both committed serious resources to. isn't it about time he did? he has, as was pointed out, $30 million in primary money left to spend, she has nothing. they've had a month to focus on the state, no one's gotten this much attention since Iowa. So why can't be beat someone that everyone apparently hates?

[SoonerPride]

22. Obama won Texas. Delegates matter and he won more of them.

Denial is sad to see.

It is over.

[northzax]

39. you are right

I can't wait to nominate a candidate who, given three weeks and unlimited funds, needs to eek out a minority vote victory against a woman who is hated by 40% of the party.

[SoonerPride]

49. As opposed to the odds-on favorite who ran the worst campaign in history and lost outright

Yeah, I'd rather nominate someone so inept they screw up their own coronation.

Deal with it.

It is over.

[tabasco]

75. Obama won on Super Tuesday.

He doesn't need to win PA and never did.

I suppose you would prefer to nominate a candidate who is behind in every metric: votes, delegates, poll ratings.

Yeah that makes sense! :dunce: In Pretend World! :eyes: Here's a photo from Pretend World, where Hillary is a war hero!

[northzax]

81. obviously, he didn't win

or he'd have 1024 delegates. that's 'winning' you don't stop the Indy 500 at lap 450, right?

he does have 1024 delegates, right? right? well, maybe once he wins Pennsylvania.

[Alexander]

103. The number is 2024, not 1024. Another sign you Shillbots are uninformed.

[northzax]

106. my apologies for the typo

thank you for the nice, polite, party-building correction. you call me a 'shillbot' but I'm the one destroying the party? grow the fuck up.

[Yael]

112. Actually, it is her positives that are down to 37%

[KittyWampus]

23. He WON TEXAS, by a healthy margin. Your bullshit is noted.

[northzax]

35. really? he won a majority of votes in Texas?

I said VOTES in a PRIMARY. you know, the same way we elect the President in the fall?

he won more delegates not votes.

please link to a site showing that more individual people voted for Obama than Hillary in Texas. I will donate $100 to DU or the Obama campaign, your preference, when you demonstrate that more people supported Barack Obama than Hillary Clinton. Remember, before you post it in advance, everyone at the Cacuses had already voted, so they only count once, not twice.

oh, and you should explain your numbers to the Texas Secretary of State, and the Texas Democratic Party, both of which have Hillary Clinton winning the popular vote in Texas.

I eagerly await your numbers.

[stillcool]

48. I think the poster was referring..

to the fact that Obama had a decisive victory in Texas, according to what 'matters', or the 'rules'.

[northzax]

56. and yet, I clearly stated 'popular vote'

in the post that was being replied to.

[stillcool]

63. and that has to do with what?

have we changed the rules?

[northzax]

65. not at all

I mean George Bush is President despite losing the popular vote, so there's good company at least.

[stillcool]

91. I'm sorry...I'm still not getting something..

You keep bring up the popular vote..and yet, Obama is ahead in the popular vote. I know that the Clinton's no longer like caucuses. I can't remember when that changed. Was it Iowa? What exactly 'matters' right now?

[northzax]

98. in texas.

how many times do I need to write the word "Texas" to get your attention to it?

in every state that the two have competed head to head that had an election, not a caucus, Hillary has won the popular vote. If he can't beat someone who we hear daily is evil and depraved, how's he going to beat McCain? I want to see him go head to head with her and beat her, in a voting situation (not a caucus, since caucuses are rarely representative of how the actual population of a state feels, which is why they are usually used by Democrats in states no Democrat can win anyway)

there are no caucuses in November to save Obama's ass, so why can't he beat a flat broke, universally despised person like Hillary Clinton head to head? why do you think?

[stillcool]

114. No matter how you slice it..

Senator Obama is winning. It is a shame Hillary is so bad at manging money and paying her debts.

[Why Syzygy]

104. That means Hellbent's make it up as you go along is good enough for him!

[Justitia]

72. Ballot votes are only a FRACTION of the total vote in TX, that count toward a "winner"

And in TX, the "winner" is determined as who wins the total when the fractions are added to make the whole.

Obama clearly wins the whole, thereby winning TX.

I was a delegate to the conventions this Saturday, clearly more "people" supported Obama, any way you want to slice it. The conventions are won by the number of "people" who turn out for a candidate.
Obama won them (so far) 60 /40 and it is expected to become higher for him as the last numbers turn in.

We caucused for 12 HOURS STRAIGHT at our convention.
I have a pretty fucking good idea of how the vote in TX turned out.

Obama WON Texas.

[northzax]

80. how many people cast one two ballot sfor Hillary?

and how many cast one or two ballots for Obama? the number of people, not the number of votes. that was my question. Sure, by allowing those people who wished to to vote 1.75 times, a different result is achieved than allowing everyone to vcte once, we all get that. So how many people voted for Hillary and how many for Obama?

can you say, with a straight face "more people in Texas cast ballots for Obama than Hillary on March 4"? yes, or no?

[Justitia]

84. you obviously are clueless as to how it works in my state.

You are trying to claim multipliers, when reality means fractions.

And yes, more people cast ballots for Obama on March 4th, as the evening caucuses of that night prove out. Registering at the caucus counts as a "vote".

But, why bother, the facts don't fit your attempted spin argument. How Clintonian.

I couldn't care less 'tho, because Obama won TX! I just got the results from Saturday & my district went 61% Obama! Woo hoo!

[northzax]

85. and all those people also voted earlier in the day, right?

isn't that the rule? you cannot attend a caucus unless you provide evidence of voting earlier in the day through either a stamped voter card, an affadavit or by being on the list of early voters?

and, since the primary covered 123 delegates, and the caucuses had 67, the second vote, if the numbers were the same, is worth about 60% of the first vote. but, of course, since far fewer people caucus, those numbers are skewed up a bit, making it about .75 or .80 of the earlier vote.

more votes were cast for Obama, if you count checking into a caucus as a vote, but by fewer people. see how that works?

[Justitia]

86. I know how it works, I've been living it as a delegate. Sorry you can't spin it for Clinton.

Whoever wins the most delegates wins the state.
Obama won the most delegates.
Obama wins Texas.

No matter how you try to color the win, your candidate loses.

[northzax]

87. see, I never argued that

you really should consider reading closer before getting your dander up.

I specifically said that in no state that the two went head to head has Senator Obama won the popular vote. and he did not win the popular vote in the Texas primary, he did win the caucus section, but he did not win the Primary part. right? why is that so hard for you to accept?

[Justitia]

92. The correct way to state it would be that Clinton won more delegates in the ballot fraction

by a measly 3% (thanks Rush!), then Obama blew her out in the caucus portion.

In total, Obama won the most delegates, Obama wins TX.

[northzax]

94. you can phrase it anyway you like

and blame anyone you want (rush must be very influential in Ohio as well, right?) fact remains, more individual people cast ballots for Hillary. you cannot deny that fact. more overall votes were for Obama, I have never said differently, but more people voted for Hillary.

more people voted twice for OBama, but if you look at overall numbers of people who voted at least once, more people voted for Hillary. spin it anyway you want to.

[Justitia]

95. Your ignorance of the Texas system is vastly apparent. Your loss. Obama wins TX.

You can spin, spin, spin it like a Clinton all you want, but

BOTTOM LINE: Obama wins the most delegates in Texas

and you can't argue w/the facts. Suck it up.

[northzax]

105. facts?

ok, we can do facts.

1: the following number of people cast at least one vote for Hillary Clinton in Texas: 1,459,814

2: the following number of people cast at least one vote for BArack Obama in Texas: 1,358,785

3: 1,459,814 > 1,358,785

any of those facts you want to argue with?

4: Barack Obama won the overall primary/caucus system. More actual people voted for Hillary Clinton. roughly 100,000 more people.

please explain which of those three facts is incorrect. is it fact 1? fact 2? fact 3? or fact 4? be specific and tell me how I am wrong. the rules state that anyone at the caucus must have been counted in fact (3), correct? there were no additional people, they were the same people, voting in a different way. but they were counted in (3), right?

[Justitia]

107. FACT: Obama won more delegates in TX

Sorry, you'll never get me to endorse your spinning of Clinton's lesser delegate count.

Are you going to argue that Clinton actually won more delegates? Because then you are delusional.

So, is the nomination won by delegates? Why, yes it is!

Obama - more delegates
Clinton - less delegates

Winner = Obama

[northzax]

108. well gee,

so you aren't arguing Fact 4. got it.

and, of course, as you know well from your detailed understanding of Texas Election Law, the delegates from the Caucuses are not, in fact, allocated until the State Convention in June. So right now it is just crystal ball reading. It certainly appears that Obama will win a majority of them, but it hasn't happened yet.

I will take your continued ducking of the simple question about majority voting as conceding the point.

[Erin Elizabeth]

101. Here's a good article

that's up to date and lays everything out about Texas and what's going on:

http://www.cqpolitics.com/wmspage.cfm?parm1=2&docID=news-000002694292

[KittyWampus]

26. And I forgot to mention, crossover Rush listeners fucking with our primary.

[northzax]

40. ok, you blame them, then

you know, they do get to vote in open primaries, right?

[havocmom]

44. HRC campaign was looking to hire in Montana. Bill is coming to MT.

Montana's primary is June 3. I don't think team Clinton will give up until they get the $$ to pay back the loan Hillary made to her campaign. It doesn't seem to matter to her/them how much damage they do in the meantime.*

* one more ways in which she is a lot like the neocons - 'my way and who cares what damage it does'. No thanks, most Americans see that for what it is.

[Debi]

74. Are you in Montana? My folks are there and I want to alert them to who is going to be where/when

in 2004 Kucinich was the only candidiate to campaign in their town. To have both Obama and Clinton visit would throw them into a tizzy!

[havocmom]

88. Yep. In the far eastern part of the state. We call it West Dakota

Here is link to Butte Standard info re Clinton visit here

http://www.mtstandard.com/articles/2008/03/31/butte_top/20080331_butte_top.txt

another link with more info

http://www.mtstandard.com/articles/2008/03/31/state_top/20080331_state_top.txt

[Debi]

96. Thanks, I grew up in Bozeman - southwest corner of the state.

Thanks for the info.

[tabasco]

69. Did the other 49 states leave the Union?

I must have missed that in the news.

[northzax]

89. nope

and if he can stitch together 1024 delegates from the other 49 states, it won't be a problem now, will it?

oh, he can't? huh.

[shaniqua6392]

5. Should we be happy that whoever has the most money wins??

That is really a shame and very undemocratic imo.

[wndycty]

9. No but we should be mindful of the double standards that exist...

. . .and the moving goal posts. Money is only 1 standard. Its widely accepted that she will not catch him pledged delegates either.

[JayFredMuggs]

11. Yes, terribly undemocratic of millions of people to support Obama financially

Just plain unfair, when Hillary has so few giving her money!

Gee, how awful for one candidate to raise more money than the other!

SARCASM OFF

[EmperorHasNoClothes]

32. No, whoever wins has the most money.

You're looking at it the wrong way. If Hillary wasn't losing so bad, she would have no problem raising money. Not many people want to throw more money into that bottomless pit.

[Double T]

6. BObots have a warped sense of WHERE this race stands............

it is NOT over and HRC can still win, despite their rhetoric and contradictions. SEE YOU IN DENVER for the cage match.

[JayFredMuggs]

14. I thought she wanted to win with votes!

Not a wrestling match.

700,000 votes behind, Hillary supporters now want her the wrestle Obama?

If Obama keeps the lead in the votes, which is most likely the case, Hillary supporters will just move the goal posts to Denver.

[Double T]

50. Let's ADD the Florida and Michigan votes; but wait obama WOULD NO LONGER........

be in the lead and HE would NEVER allow that. When obama is intentionally manipulating the caucuses, open primaries and even disenfranchising the voters in ACTUAL ELECTIONS, seems to me we have arrived at a cage match; winner take ALL.

[BumRushDaShow]

68. Why would you promulgate rule-breaking?

Both states were recently given the option for a do-over where the candidates could equally campaign there and both refused to act on it.

Where are you getting this nonsense of "intentionally manipulating the caucuses", etc? It's funny how when Bill was winning caucuses they were just fine, but when his wife was losing them, then:



Blame Penn and a poor campaign.

[Alexander]

82. Actually Obama would still be in the lead even if FL and MI are counted as is.

Thanks for spreading that lie, though. I love debunking bullshit.

[NDambi]

19. She'll be broke and out by the end of June

[mikekohr]

36. I Posted This Story Over 2 Months Ago and Got Blasted For Doing It

These stories of Clinton's money problems were beginning to circulate in local news media in Iowa over 2 months ago. Few people were paying attention or willing to admit the seriousness of the problem or willing to make a connection of the unpaid bills to the management of the Clinton Campaign. The canary died in the mine back in Iowa. It took America 2 months to look at the bottom of the cage.

read link to original posts:

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/mikekohr

http://66.39.111.188/cgi-bin/UltraBoard/UltraBoard.cgi?...

mike kohr

[NDambi]

46. smart cookie you were

[msallied]

83. Great story and I love your canary metaphor. :)

[northzax]

20. they think this board represents the Party

which it obviously doesn't.

but I think if he wins PA, it's over. if he loses PA, he shows an inability to beat Hillary head to head in a contested state, with a month to campaign. makes you wonder, don't it?

[EmperorHasNoClothes]

38. Hillary had a year to campaign in Iowa, and came in third place

despite being the presumed front runner. Now THAT is what makes me wonder.

[Debi]

76. And spent $140 million to get there n/t

[redqueen]

77. There it is.

The cold, hard truth of it.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

42. It's a state that neighbors her "home" state.

So it won't make me wonder much at all.

[Double T]

52. A VOICE of reason and intelligence.

Agreed. Thank YOU!!!

[EmperorHasNoClothes]

37. Hillary really cares about the will of the voters

at least when it comes to Florida and Michigan, where she would pick up delegates. When it comes to the primary as a whole, she'll be perfectly happy if the superdelegates override the will of the voters in her favor.

[MethuenProgressive]

7. The Presidency of the United States is for sale? Sold to BO?

We count ballots still, don't we? Not dollar bills?

[Why Syzygy]

13. You can't campain without cash. It's that simple.

No one here made up the rules.

[wndycty]

18. Yup you and I know if Obama was $2.7 million in debt money would matter. . .

:kick

[JayFredMuggs]

17. Votes or dollar bills, Obama is ahead

700,000 votes ahead

30 Million dollars ahead

Only a candidate like Hillary and only her supporters want Hillary to win with less votes and less money, by some divine intervention.

[Bensthename]

57. 21st century you vote with your dollar. I've voted 150 ($150) times so far for Obama.

[surfermaw]

21. Don't worry about Hill, how much did she bring in Jan and Feb, and acrually they were small donation

Her claim of small donations are actaually true , on the other hand the Obama story was a lie 90% of his donations were donations of 1000 thousand or more.

[flor de jasmim]

25. do you have a link for that?

[cali]

29. Don';t even bother

It's rank crap that she pulled out of a dark place.

[cali]

28. That is the worst kind of bullshit

not that it's remotely possible for the likes of you to be educated but if you think that kind of garbage is going to be swallowed here, you have another thing coming to you.

Disgusting as always.

[EmperorHasNoClothes]

41. You're making a false claim that can easily be disproven by the public record.

I can see why you support Hillary, you're birds of a feather. :rofl:

[niceypoo]

53. This public record???

http://query.nictusa.com/pres/2008/M3/C00431569.html

Or the speculations of 'pundits?'

[EmperorHasNoClothes]

54. 90% of his donations were donations of 1000 thousand or more?

Ok, so he has had 2 million donors. 90% of that is 1.8 million. If they each gave $1000, that would come to $1.8 billion dollars. I would certainly like to believe Obama has that kind of public support! :rofl:

[40ozDonkey]

116. It just builds your trust toward our economic future, doesn't it?

"A huge drop on Wall Street today on rumors that somebody in the Clinton administration's Economic Advisory Panel forgot to carry the 2."

[Blue_Roses]

24. and what gets me...

is the bulk of her campaign debt is in healthcare. She's not even paying for the premiums. :wtf:

And we're supposed to trust her healthcare solution. Yeah right:eyes:

[saltpoint]

27. Mrs. Clinton has now been diagnosed with Dollar Envy and Delegate Envy.

These afflictions are very difficult to reverse.

[JayFredMuggs]

30. Good one!

Yes, I suggest complete bed rest, isolation, and not using her voice, the only cure for this terrible disease.

Each time she opens her mouth, more jealous characterizations of her opponent, and more hyperbole about her "experience" floats out, damaging her well-being even more and more.

Withdraw from the campaign for "reasons of mental health" would be a good solution for her, IMO.

[saltpoint]

34. Hello, JFM. Yes -- rest is good for just about any ailment. I think President

Obama should appoint HClinton as our abmassador to The Seychelles.

It's about 98% Muslim -- as far as I know.

[Purveyor]

31. "The Clintons" know that Obama is going to win the nomination and are only staying in to fracture

the party and hand the WH to McCain. Their best bet now is to keep Obama out of the WH and focus on 2012...

[democrattotheend]

33. We don't have the March #'s yet though

I bet Clinton raised a lot in March, possibly more than Obama. She raised $5 million in the 24 hours after March 4, for one.

[JayFredMuggs]

43. But really now, if you were (or are) a Clinton supporter would you

Give any more money to her campaign after her boldface lies concerning her "experience" about landing in Bosnia in sniper fire?

I think most people with money to give will be waiting this one out (not givving her any more money) to see how alive and well the Clinton campaign is at the end of April.

[K Gardner]

45. This is not likely, given surrogates have said March was "good", as compared to

February's "great".. and given that Feb saw her $3 million in debt. Her debts have accumulated in March.. but we'll see :-)

[uberblonde]

47. Sorry.

They're tied. Neither of them can win without the superdelegates, and God knows he's buying up as many as he can.

[Bensthename]

55. Obama will win PA. He has the money, and the better campaign skills with 3 weeks to go.

Watch and see.

[northzax]

58. he'd better

right?

[Bensthename]

61. He needs to come within 5 win.

Seeing as how he is 15 points behind there now.

[mod mom]

59. We must demand to see TAX RETURNS before anymore Clinton self funding!

[Stephanie]

78. Damn straight! Dubai and Saudi Arabia are funding her campaign via Bill

And that's a fact - he hauls in six figure speaking fees from foreign entities, she raids the joint bank account to float loans to her campaign. it's a serious conflict of interest and it's outrageous that she's been dodging this.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

66. somebody needs to educate you Obama and his supporters....

STATES DON"T VOTE!!!!

land mass doesn't vote


people do


it just doesn't matter how many states one wins so y'all especially Obama need to drop it from your claims to fame. I heard Obama claim "I won the most states" it yesterday. It just makes him look naive and childish.


.

[Debi]

71. "land mass doesn't vote"

Which is why Clinton keeps telling how many 'big states' she's won :rofl:

[mikekohr]

73. People In Those States Vote, and They Are Voting For Obama

There is no state that Senator Clinton won, that Senator Obama will not carry in November (ex: he is already ahead of Senator Clinton in CA). That can not be said of Senator Clinton. In my opinion, that is unfortunate, but those are the facts such as they are, fair or unfair, like them or not.

Senator Obama will compete in states we as a party have not had reasonable or likely chances to win. His presence at the top of the ticket will help elect state and local Democratic candidates. Howard Dean recognizes the importance of the 50 state strategy. The presence of Barack Obama at the top of our ticket in November will be the wagon we ride to victory on.

mike kohr

Victory in '08

[Willo]

79. Hillary transferred $10mil to her campaign in addition to the $5mil loan.

Does anyone know what "transferred" means in this case? How is treated? Is she free to transfer it back out?

http://online.wsj.com/public/article/SB120612639749954097-AGkUP2FET7GMSvWMQNALp4C9eLA_20080420.html?mod=tff_main_tff_top

[JayFredMuggs]

109. In effect, she's loaning her campaign $10 Mil more!

Thats's what it means.

[Debi]

110. She did that back in the beginning of the campaign to show her

fund raising strength and bolster the 'inevitable' image. Unfortunately her campaign then blew $140 million coming in 3rd in Iowa and financially has not recovered.

I don't know if she could transfer it back or not - the bigger question is..will she have it to transfer back?

[Willo]

111. Such an irresponsible and disrespectful way to handle campaign funds.

[tabasco]

113. Fox News would demand that this uppity Negro get out of the race!

[Life Long Dem]

115. How much would Obama have if he didn't pay his bills?

:rofl: