On babies as punishment

[msallied]

In the eyes of a socially conservative government that would put restrictions on a woman's reproductive rights, babies ARE treated as punishment. A punishment for not keeping her legs closed. A punishment for not waiting until she were married in the eyes of God. A punishment for acting against "God's Will." Oh they don't say the word "punishment." They use softer words and euphemisms like "responsibility," but it all boils down to the same thing and anyone who is truly pro-choice knows it because we've been fighting this mindset for years. It's only NOW, that a Clinton advocate sees a chance to take a cheap political potshot at her fellow Democrat, that we see liberals having a problem with this sort of phraseology.

And I have to say, anyone who does have a problem with this is a hypocrite. You've sold the soul of the values that made you just as liberal as the rest of us for the benefit of ONE PERSON--a losing candidate who has also sold her soul. How sickening.

[mrJJ]

1. True or False?

snip

Furthermore, The Family takes credit for some of Clinton's rightward legislative tendencies, including her support for a law guaranteeing "religious freedom" in the workplace, such as for pharmacists who refuse to fill birth control prescriptions and police officers who refuse to guard abortion clinics.

snip

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20080331/ehrenreich

[mntleo2]

2. May I Add ...

Raising children is doing the work to ensure our future. I often ask a childless person when they announce they "should not have to support other people's children" that with their thinking then, why should MY kids support THEM when they get old? Who is going to pay their social security as we do for our previous generation? Who is going to run this country when we get too old to do it? Who is going to fight in their wars?" So with their thinking then, can I expect them to get out there with their cane and start digging the ditch to repair the plumbing and electric lines that go to their residence?

This usually shuts them up ...

Raising children IS work and it IS going to affect the future of this country. We can either refuse to support that and raise the next generation of ignorant, selfish people who will see the elderly not worth their time, since they and their parents got little and often no support or help growing up by the likes of people who view having babies as punishment. Or we can insure our own elderly years by assisting parents to raise kids by supporting them with things like childcare, family leave, educating them so when they take care of YOU they know how to do it properly, and making sure the future is bright by leaving our children in a tolerant society that is livable for all.

BTW, did you know over 88% of women on welfare were married and over 70% and their children are victims of domestic violence? Just thought I would throw that in since most people assume welfare recipients are unwed mothers.

My 2 cents

Cat In Seattle <---ardent supporter for families

[zanne]

3. I find that offensive.

I did not have children by choice. I am not a selfish person and I took care of my mother at home during her ten year illness with Alzheimer's disease.

I have helped sisters and brothers raise their children. I am now helping nieces and nephews raise theirs. I've given plenty of time and money to other people's children.

I don't intend for other people's children to pay my way when I am elderly. I worked hard all my life and have Social Security and Medicare benefits. I PAID for those things.

I think your post is ill informed and insulting.

[Thepricebreaker]

6. ..but but don't you believe in freedom of speech? or only when you agree with it?

[zanne]

15. Does someone else's freedom of speech limit mine?

The poster presented his/her case and was free to do so. I found it offensive and used my freedom of speech to say so.

[bunnies]

8. Bravo!

:applause: This childless person couldnt agree more.

[Connie_Corleone]

9. Same here. I've been taking care of my grandmother since I've been out of college (14 years!!).

She has Alzheimer's. I haven't even lived my own life much less try to have kids.

I'll probably have to adopt because I'll be too old to have children.

[NDambi]

13. Bravo! n/t

[RichardRay]

16. Sorry, but you didn't pay for them...

You paid for somebody else's. The kids of today will be paying for you and me, and their kids will pay for them. That's how the system works. It's a problem that will need to be addressed in the long run, but for now I'm just glad there are smart kids out there working and paying taxes since I'm 61 this year!!

[berni_mccoy]

17. You do not understand how Social Security works then

Your contributions paid for the benefits of your elders. Our childrens contributions will pay for ours. That is how the system is designed. By not providing for the care and education of the young you are shortchanging your future.

[zanne]

23. I never objected to paying for children's education or care.

Some people only partially read posts. I found the post offensive because it puts the blame on childless people. I'm childless but I led a petition to have a new school built across the street from my home. (And if you don't think that's a sacrifice, you haven't heard kids screaming by the hundreds or had traffic jams in your neighborhood every morning and afternoon).

I don't understand how Social Security works? As I said, I worked all my life, so I know that I helped a generation of elders live decent lives with my taxes. But I will not let anyone call me selfish for being childish and not call them on it. No way.

[berni_mccoy]

26. If that is what you are offended by, then you did not read that person's entire post.

They did not single out all "childless people" as you claim. They singled out childless people who say they should not be forced to pay for child-related social services (like education and healthcare).

[zanne]

28. Many people assume that about childless people.

I've been hearing about it all my life. I'd like, for once, just one person to take a survey of childless people to ask them if they object to supporting other people's children. I'll bet you a nickel that 99% of them don't. It's the stereotype that drives me crazy.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

36. I'd like to see people with children have to contend with nosy questions about their choice too.

"Why don't you want children?"

"Don't you like children?"

"But who will take care of you when you're old?" (That's my personal fave. Answer: An underpaid nursing home attendant, same as who will be taking care of you.)

NO ONE ever has the temerity to question parents as to why they decided to have children. This despite the fact that a lot of people plop out kids without having clue one as to why, or whether or not they should even be parents.

[Mike03]

41. Couldn't have said it better myself.

I am childless by choice, because I would be a terrible parent. But I have sisters and a niece, and even if I did not, care, feeding and education of our young is an incredible priority to me. Half of my yearly charitable donations go to the local schools or daycare-related services. And I've been fighting against "No Child Left Behind" for years because of how it has destroyed our education system.

[mntleo2]

30. Lovely ...

...so you did contribute to that work of raising the next generation. Like your sisters and brothers, I did TWO jobs, working and caring for a family 24 X 7. You are paying other people's Social Security and Medicare. Look it up, this is what we are paying into. The main reason our coffers in SS are going to be down is not because somehow you have paid into it and have this nest egg for yourself. The dwindling amounts is because of we Boomers who consist of far more people than the next generation of children who are fewer. If you think for one minute other people will not be taking care of you when you get old, most particularly the next couple generation, well I guess you will have to stay young forever or figure out a way to change your own bedpan, run your own government, grow your own food, and maintain your own roads.

I am sorry you find it offensive. I know childless people are quite sincere as was I before I had children myself ~ but you will never get it unless you walk in those shoes, my dear. Childless people always think they know when they do not about the exhausting work parents accept who raise their children.

The choice of not having children is already benefiting you more than people who are raising children, which you will not get in your old age without the benefit of other people's children helping you. You are far better off economically than you would be with children who are expensive to raise, you can enjoy peace and quiet when you choose and easily leave behind the daily and wearing cares of children, and you are enjoying the fruits of your labor for yourself, and not putting every penny you earn into the raising of children but where you choose to put it. This is nice. For you.

Still I will maintain not having children does not do as much as raising children does for the future of this country, no matter what childless people say. That you choose to help out your other family members is great. Would that more childless people did the same for their siblings, many kids would not come home to an empty house with no adult guidance, or try to deal with over stressed parents who have no time and no energy, and most of all maybe kids would get the guidance every child craves and deserves from the adults around them when Mom and Dad are too busy trying to feed, house and clothes them to do much else so their kids will make it to adulthood to take care of you.

Cat In Seattle

[zanne]

32. Don't be condescending

You had kids. Good for you. It was hard work. I know that. If you didn't want the hard work, you shouldn't have had them. The fact is, you made an informed decision to have children and I made an informed decision not to.

I'm sorry, dear, but you do have a biased outlook on childless people and it shows. I'll tell you what; you don't criticize me for not having children and I won't criticize you for having children.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

38. My not having a child is worth 72 years of recycling.

Take your santimonious attitude and stick it where the sun don't shine.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

34. I have no problem paying taxes to help take care of your children

Any childless person who claims they do is being an idiot. I would be happy to pay more taxes to improve our schools, despite having no children of my own.

That said, I think that we live in a culture where people who don't procreate are assigned second class status in the workplace, socially, and in terms of public policy. We are expected to pay a higher share of income tax (who do you think is footing the bill for that lovely child tax credit Bill Clinton gave you?) and often to work overtime so that parents can go to school functions and games. Our income seems to exist to subsidize families and we are not worthy of free time to pursue our own interests according to our employers. There are increasingly fewer public spaces where we can go that are free from screaming toddlers and rambunctious teens. In light of that, it really shouldn't surprise you parents that some "childfree" folks are resentful of you and your progeny.

As the country changes demographically: more people opting to have no children and more people who are "empty nesters", there are going to be some interesting shifts in policy and perception.

[Megahurtz]

4. You got that right.

I am so tired of this subject being twisted by Right-Wing-Spin. Even here on DU! :wtf:

[Thepricebreaker]

5. Why do people post entire new threads to reply to a thread? Ugh... n/t

[rucky]

7. When the OP of that thread suggests it?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=5329170&mesg_id=5329559

[leftstreet]

10. They thought Skinner said we're limited to 3 LOCKED threads a day

:o

[msallied]

25. I don't believe I've had a locked thread yet.

But if I do, I'm okay with that counting against my three.

[Barack_America]

11. Exactly, if these people gave a shit about the babies, they would support funding...

For their healthcare, their daycare, their schools. But, in reality, they oppose funding for each of these things.

You nailed it in addressing that the Pro-Life movement has everything to do with punishing women for "loose" behavior and nothing to do with protecting children.

[depakid]

12. Only someone who doesn't know many "social conservatives"

or so called "pro-lifers" would say that.

Try listening to a few sometime, if you want to understand what they're on about.

It beats spreading dishonest vitriol (and sounding hypocritical in the process).

[walldude]

14. I know a few pro-lifers.. and every one of them are all pro-life

till the kid comes out of the womb. Then their motto is "pull yourself up by your bootstraps." I understand exactly what they are "on about".

[depakid]

29. That's their "personal responsibility mantra"

which they apply to families in general, and has nothing to do with "punishment" per se for not keeping one's legs closed.

STD's on the other hand... that you'll hear.

[msallied]

31. How many abortion debates have you been in?

Just curious because the "keep your legs closed" argument is about as commonplace as a 1911 in a soldier's arsenal.

[depakid]

37. Too many

I also did an internship with my Oregon DHS's Office of Womens and Family Health.

Generally speaking, my experience is that if you're interested in changing attitudes and promoting public health, you're much better off (we're all much better off) figuring out what it is that really motives a person (or movement) rather than taking the easy way out and pigeonholing their attitude, beliefs and values.

Are there people who think like that? Hell, there are people who still think the earth was created several thousand years ago. People believe a lot of stupid things- and some have rather mean (or crass) propensities. But on this issue narrow issue, I think you'll find that those are in the minority in mature debates.

[msallied]

42. Most people do not approach this issue rationally

Which was my whole point in saying that most social conservatives approach this issue with the attitude that the baby IS a punishment, because when they say that if you don't want a baby you shouldn't have sex, that is exactly what they are alluding to. A typical religious pro-lifer type sees the world in very black and white terms. They aren't attuned to nuance. You can approach this as academically as you want, but go hang out on a few abortion debate boards and they make this place look like a tea party.

[Barack_America]

18. I know plenty, and while they don't admit it, that often is the crux of their beliefs...

Maybe without even realizing it. But anger towards "loose" women is often there.

But I don't make the mistake of believing that people with pro-life beliefs are monolithic. They are as varied as us pro-choice folks.

[msallied]

22. I grew up in southwest Ohio

So believe me, I know a LOT of social conservatives and the majority of them when you ask them about abortion will say more often than not that if you don't want kids you should keep your legs closed. If that isn't viewing a baby as a punishment for promiscuity, I don't know what is.

[sandnsea]

27. Many have the "made your bed, lie in it"

attitude. It's a self-righteous judgmentalness, the same judgmentalness that doesn't give a shit about the life when it gets here either. The same self-righteousness that hates gays, and had no problem enslaving people, and slaughtered Indians and thinks we should drop a nuke in the ME.

[depakid]

33. Yep- there's some of that, too

As another poster noted, maybe that's something implicit (or subconscious) with respect to their attitudes toward unintended pregnancies, but typically what I hear when you isolate the issue is more in keeping with what I call "the innocence" argument and the "selfishness" argument.

Having grown up in a Southern family- I've listened to more of rationalizations for anti-choice and absence arguments than I can count, but "punishment" isn't one that comes up. To many, it's more like the girl would be "missing out" on their view of motherhood and family.

In that regard, it's also useful to remember that many of these folks were born to teenage parent themselves, grew up poor or working class and are relatively uneducated themselves.

[sandnsea]

35. You aren't the only one with a southern farmily

or religious family. The ONLY person I've heard be truly welcoming to all children, and never say a negative word about the marital status of the parents, is my very pro-life Catholic aunt. She loves everybody. It's a rare thing. Every other religious person I've ever heard does nothing but spout sin and condemnation.

[depakid]

39. Enlightened Southerners are some of the coolest people in the world

Genteel, über friendly, courteous and kind.

Unfortunately, like most societies, they're outnumbered by people with less enviable characteristics....

[ourbluenation]

19. As a pro-choice, adopted adult who has many beloved pro life people in my life

I don't think this is accurate.

[msallied]

21. As a pro-choice adult who knows many pro-lifers

I find that it is accurate.

[GodlessBiker]

20. It all balances out. Eventually, old parents are punishment to their children.

[msallied]

24. Great point.

[mntleo2]

40. LOL! Good One! n/t

[cooolandrew]

43. Yep time for another puke at the loss of principles this election.

:puke: