I'm single. A child would be a punishment and a curse.

[Firespirit]

I am currently living as a working-class woman despite a college education and an engineering degree. I am sure that someday this will change, but for now that is what the economy is like. I have experienced sexism in hiring, which is in fact the very reason why I am making less than 1/3 of what I should be making according to pay charts. Men dominate the field I am trained in 9 to 1, and I'm seen as a threat. The financial situation will, however, improve eventually.

There is another problem that won't improve.

Very recently I learned that I have a condition called polycystic ovary syndrome. My mother had it as well. I say "had"... she's alive, but she no longer has any reproductive system because of it.

It appears in 1 in 10 women and manifests itself differently in different women. For me what it means is that I have high levels of androgens, which are male-associated hormones, and these hormones have affected the feminine characteristics of my body. This disorder caused my mother to have two miscarriages. It later caused a severe development of uterine fibroids, requiring a full hysterectomy, and her gynecologist thinks that hormonal imbalances may have been a factor in the breast tumor that she developed in 2006.

In me, the syndrome has apparently contributed to high blood pressure, as well as several problems I've observed for the greater part of ten years, including a tendency toward severe depression, metabolic abnormalities, masculinization of my body, and some gynecological issues that I do not wish to discuss on DU.

I might be able to carry a child. Obviously the syndrome did not prevent my mother from doing so. But it would be very traumatic for my body, it would be risky for the child, and I can tell you that having to care for the child would send me--and it--into poverty.

I am genuinely, truly glad for single mothers who see their children as blessings, who made lemonade from a lemon, in effect. But you must understand that your situation is not the situation of everyone else. There are some women for whom a child would indeed be a punishment and a curse.

[MrSlayer]

1. Well the solution is simple.

Birth control.

[Blue Diadem]

3. That's exactly what Obama was getting at..abstinence only programs don't work

[Blue_Roses]

7. exactly and as usual

it's been turned into something more than what it is...

:eyes:

[elixir]

46. It's not his stance it's his choice of words, idiot.

[Lautremont]

74. I guess you're one of those people who sign their name to the end of every post.

[Blue Diadem]

82. How old are you?

[Firespirit]

4. Well yes, that is a common treatment

When I can afford health insurance, I'll fill the prescription.

But it's completely irrelevant to the point I was trying to make (and apparently failed), that some women have health problems that make pregnancy dangerous for them.

[Madam Mossfern]

11. As a side note

I thought that health insurance doesn't cover birth control...has it changed?

[Firespirit]

12. This would be for a medical condition, so many plans would cover it

You're right though, and that's a whole other issue. :mad:

[Kber]

80. Actually - yes

some accountant finally figured out that it is cheaper to pay for pills that pregnancy, childbirth and the health care of the kid for the first several weeks.

I've done the math and health insurance companies lost money every time I got pregnant.

[bellasgrams]

77. Birth control sounds much cheaper than abortion. If you never

want to get preg. get your tubes tied. If you get preg there's the abortion pill. If you want to get preg. and it's high risk there are special doctors for that.

[Kittycat]

9. Of course, but it's not a 100% gaurantee.

And there's no reason to punish a woman, because it fails her or her body. There are MANY reasons not to carry a child - poverty and age are only a couple of them.

I'm one of those married women that has endured two horrific pregnancies. I delivered my twins at 23.2wks (for twinA, passing shortly after)) and 3.5 days later for my surviving son - who spent 6.5mo in the NICU and home on oxygen for 2 years (still has a feeding tube f/t). When I got pregnant again, it was a singleton and we sighed relief. I don't think I would have kept the pregnancy if it was twins, knowing my history. Regardless - we THOUGHT things would be okay if I took it easy - it was after all, just one baby. I ended up spending 19wks on complete bedrest with a pump hooked up to me, pumping medicine in me around the clock to keep me from going in to labor - contracting constantly... All the while with a special needs toddler in the house. Fortunately, I made it to 37.2 weeks, and delivered a healthy child.

HOWEVER... If I got pregnant again, I wouldn't keep it. For my health and sanity, for my family's sanity, and due to the extreme risk to me/the baby (rupture, and preterm labor risk, long term health implications). But we did do the little snip-snip to help prevent that from happening down the road. But there was still a window of time where something COULD have happened. For us it didn't - for others, it did.

I'll never say that my boys are punishment, but it would be punishing them to try and carry another child. Not to mention the risk of my own health and sanity.

[Megahurtz]

35. And sometimes Birth Control fails.

Ever heard of a broken condom, as one example?

[MrSlayer]

50. So double up.

Have dude wear a rubber backed up with spermicidal lube as the woman is on the pill at the same time. Can't be too careful, especially someone who would be in extreme danger from a pregnancy. If it's that dangerous maybe forgoing vaginal sex altogether might be the best idea. There are many ways to get off without risking pregnancy.

[Firespirit]

67. Honestly, it's probably a non-issue for me

I've identified as asexual, but I don't know anymore, that might have just been the long-term hormone fuckery messing with me. Romantically I'd say I'm a Kinsey 4. It's possible it could be a concern someday, but this is all about hypotheticals.

I personally think, though, that in a heterosexual LTR with health being an issue, they should look at sterilization.

[dansolo]

95. Haven't they determined that spermicides increase the risk from STDs?

I thought that the current recommendation was to avoid spermicides because they were actually irritants, and increased the risk of transmitting STDs. Thought, if you are in a monogamous relationship, then it might be OK.

[roguevalley]

90. true on birth control but also for boys. it is not the full burden of

girls to make this not happen. don't forget the boys

[MrSlayer]

91. I'm not. The male is as responsible for safety.

Tell him to wrap it. No glove, no love. Given the choice between getting some with a condom or notting getting any at all the dude will opt for the condom. Even better, have him wear a condom while she also uses the pill or the sponge or whatever. Can't be too careful. Besides, pills and other forms of female BC do not help prevent disease the way condoms do. It's a two way street.

[roguevalley]

92. I agree, MrSlayer. the post wasn't for you, hon. It was for a lot of

others in this world who feel they don't have the same burden.

[grilled onions]

2. Which Is Why Women Should Have Choice

Health problems,financial challenges,school,training or maybe just still wanting a social life--whatever it is women should not be expected to have kids just because "they can"(and should according to some groups). When these groups spout off about reproduction and what is womans lot in life they have no idea how complicated it is. Today with the job market being nill and housing costs being extreme,to say nothing of the world overpopulation in general many are thinking twice about adding to the problem. It should be our choice.

[MichaelHarris]

5. The way I see it

most people don't like to use the word "mistake" when it comes to something they did. Here we have people willing to use words like "curse" and "punishment" instead. That really does speak volumes about where we are as a civilization. I'm glad to know I still make a few mistakes and I'm not cursed or being punished.

Edited to fix my misspelling curse.

[Firespirit]

6. You miss the point

If you want to make that argument, then OK, I'll take you up on it. The kid isn't the mistake; the unprotected sex is. The kid is the consequence of it, and consequences are sometimes considered punishments.

[MichaelHarris]

13. is it

mistake to forget to take a pill? Is it a mistake to buy condoms for the weekend? Is it a mistake not pulling out in time? I didn't call a child a mistake, I called what lead to the child a mistake. Why is it so hard for us to say we made a mistake these days?

I would never want a child to know they were a curse. I don't know the root of this argument, I've been busy today. My guess is it's something one of the candidates said.

[Kittycat]

14. Because you can do everything right, and still get pregnant.

:eyes:
Condoms break, and birth control is not 100%.

[MichaelHarris]

18. I totally agree

all those things can happen and then you have an accident. Is that a curse?

[Firespirit]

22. If pregnancy could KILL you, as it apparently could me, damn right it is a curse

When you grow a uterus, check back on this, k?

ARGH.

[odelisk8]

87. having read

this little battle...i had a great joke about you growing a penis but i figured it was enough to point out that you were the first to make a sexist statement...not cool...that guy was nicer than i would be...but i shant be back to this post again....

[Firespirit]

19. That's very true

What's the failure rate for the pill? I seem to recall that it was 5%. Excellent point.

[Debi]

21. Jesus! Where do these people come from????

I guess abstinence IS the only answer :banghead:

[MichaelHarris]

25. Don't you dare

judge me, I never promoted one form over another. Any birth control that works is fine with me. I'm pro choice and I'm pro birth control. I'm debating the choice of words. You have no right judging me.

[Megahurtz]

44. You have no right judging women

and what they consider to be a punishment or not. :think:

[MichaelHarris]

52. CURSE

my penis, damn you to hell Mr. Happy!!!!!!

[Firespirit]

16. I'm not sure what you're trying to get across

I just said point blank, unprotected sex is the mistake and an unwanted kid could be a consequence/punishment. Who said a kid was a mistake? You seem to be arguing against a view that no one actually advanced.

[MichaelHarris]

20. not really

I just don't want a bunch of kids running around thinking they are curses. Well, unless a wizard had something to do with it.

[Firespirit]

24. Your concern for the kids is duly noted

Pity that you can't display equal concern for the woman, in a thread started by a woman with an inherited HEALTH PROBLEM that makes pregnancy dangerous, as well as causing all manner of OTHER health problems. Those kids would not get to run around thinking anything if the condition kills the mother or the fetus.

[MichaelHarris]

27. Holy cow

some people can be so ignorant. All I wanted to do is point out the difference between curse and mistake. Some crazy SOBs around here lately.

[Firespirit]

34. Get this through your damn skull

Nobody even used the word "mistake" in this thread until you.

When it came up, you had it spelled out to you that no, the kid was not a "mistake" (how could it be unless it was a wanted kid but a bad decision?). A life threatening pregnancy is a punishment and curse, and being impoverished for it is also a punishment and curse.

If you think it's good form to waltz in here and start this concern for poor hypothetical kids being called curses, TOTALLY ignoring that the point of it is that pregnancy can be a severe danger to the woman, then you are the one who's ignorant.

[MichaelHarris]

37. I'll play

who cursed you you come up pregnant? Fuck me, the ignorant roams DU today.

[Firespirit]

47. Do you understand the English language?

Mistake = an ill-considered action = unprotected sex.

Punishment = negative consequence = unwanted child and horrible pregnancy that could kill.

Curse = metaphoric term for a long-term, hard-or-impossible-to-get-rid-of situation = Bringing up an unplanned child in bad circumstances and poor health.

[MichaelHarris]

48. told you

you win, Thor or someone higher cursed a bunch of women. I get it now. We should stop all birth control education and find the God-Like bastard ( you know it's man) who's doing all the cursing. No one has ever had an accidental birth, they've all been curses.

[Firespirit]

55. What is WRONG with you?

Your problem is that I used a word that has ONE supernatural meaning and another metaphorical meaning?

Militant atheist, right? That or Aspie, gotta be. Good God (sorry about that), I have Aspie tendencies myself, but this is unreal. Do you even know what a figure of speech is?

[MichaelHarris]

57. actually

Christian. So now my religion or lack thereof is under attack or my penis, which are we going after next? I need to prepare a defense. I still only debate the word curse as opposed to mistake or accident. I tire though, you guys win. We all need someone to blame, I guess the word curse is as good as any to blame.

[sandnsea]

17. aaaaaarrrggghhh

I'd like you to try that "pulling out in time" method for the rest of your life. I don't care if you have 20 pregnancies as a result of your absolutely ignorant choice of birth control, you have to have all the babies. Too bad for you and your "mistake", that apparently nobody bothered to tell you that "pulling out" doesn't work.

[MichaelHarris]

23. is not

pulling out in time a curse or a mistake?

[Firespirit]

26. It's medieval thinking.

It's a STUPID idea by an uninformed man. It doesn't work.

[MichaelHarris]

28. now I'm uniformed?

12 years research in OB/Gyn at the University of Texas Medical Branch and I'm uniformed? Why, because of my penis?

[sandnsea]

30. OH OBVIOUSLY

Dear god. If you really have a background in OB/GYN and said that, get a new career.

[MichaelHarris]

36. man

you're can't be this stupid. I'm only debating the choice of words, mistake or curse. I could care less what form of birth control you use. I used rhythm only to make a point. I know it's a shitty method. Are you that thick? You have been in the past.

[Firespirit]

38. "Mistake" makes no SENSE

How is an unwanted child a mistake? It's a CONSEQUENCE of a mistake. Ergo, it could be counted as a punishment by some. And as it would be a long-term consequence, it could be called a curse.

[MichaelHarris]

42. OK you win

curse those bastards.

[sandnsea]

45. When children have NO INFORMATION

or WRONG INFORMATION - then there's no CHOICE. At that point, the consequences they face are a PUNISHMENT that WE AS ADULTS inflicted on them. I am not thick, I never have been thick, I just refuse to allow IDIOTS to bully me.

If a parent doesn't teach their child to read, isn't that a punishment to the child when the child can't compete economically?

[MichaelHarris]

51. we're fighting

and I agree with you, funny huh? You keep fighting though, I have some photographs to edit.

[sandnsea]

54. So forcing pregnancy

can be a punishment. You agree with that? I didn't hear you say that.

[MichaelHarris]

56. What the

fuck are you talking about? Forcing pregnancy on someone? I never said anything like that, man you should re-read my posts. I'm still only debating the use of the "curse" as opposed to "mistake" or even accident. I'm about this close to bailing, there some crazy mofo mojo going on around here today.

[sandnsea]

58. You know

if I didn't think your ego was getting in the way of the point, I'd probably keep trying.

[MichaelHarris]

59. I'm not

the argument went past the debate over the use of the word "curse" long ago. I actually should have stopped when my gender and then religion was attacked. The people that went there should really be ashamed. In any event I made a huge "mistake" posting in this thread. Some may say it was a curse to do so.

[sandnsea]

62. I would say I punished you for your ignorance

but if you really believe "pulling out" is an appropriate birth control method, then that would be the fault of your elders and perhaps I punished you unfairly. Sorry.

[MichaelHarris]

63. Fu%& Me

I used it as a example, it's a shitty method. It's a stupid method. You judged me on that? You didn't read my posts very well.

[sandnsea]

65. And people who use it

didn't make a "mistake". They were uninformed. To allow our children to be so uninformed on ALL birth control and STD prevention methods, is to PUNISH them when they have to deal with the consequences. Get it?

[MichaelHarris]

68. no

but it's OK. You're not able to get beyond the "rhythm" thing. It really is about "mistake" vs "curse" nothing more. If you get beyond me using a stupid example then we can continue. Was my example a mistake or curse?

[Firespirit]

71. Knock it off

I've explained it to you and you still keep it up.

I'm an evil, sociopathic person who thinks innocent little kids are a curse.

Happy?

[MichaelHarris]

72. excuse me

while I spit these words out of my mouth that you put there.

[sandnsea]

73. No, the "rhythm" thing is the perfect example

But it applies to ALL birth control. "Rhythm" can work, if you have all the information, take your temperature every day, and both partners are dedicated to it, 100%. But if somebody is taught that "pulling out" is what rhythm amounts to, then it isn't a "mistake" when it doesn't work. Can you agree with that?

Further, if someone isn't taught accurately about all the other birth control methods, then how can they make "mistakes".

[Firespirit]

75. You're wasting your breath on him

This guy's problem is that I said some women could consider an unwanted pregnancy or child a curse. He is offended by that phrasing. Thinks I should have said "mistake." When I stood by it, he fessed up that his reason for doing this was that the word offended him.

[MichaelHarris]

81. honesty

is a curse.

[sandnsea]

83. Well I hope he responds

Because it's very important. Our kids deserve better than the sex ed we're getting. I learned that the hard way when my 18 year old told me condoms don't prevent STDs. What??? I never would have dreamed they had abstinence based sex ed in my local high school. And I would dare anybody to say "oops" to my face if he had gotten sick.

[MichaelHarris]

84. sand

I'll respond to both of you:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=3086856&mesg_id=3086856

[sandnsea]

86. what a baby

are you ten? You can't take a challenge over something as important as LIFE?? Pathetic. I thought better of you.

[Firespirit]

60. If I say it's a curse, it's not for you to debate it

If I have a health problem that could do to me what it did to my mother -- or worse -- then the pregnancy would be a curse. If I have no insurance and little money, it would be a curse.

You can "debate" that all you want, hauling out a literal definition of the word involving a supernatural power, but you knew perfectly well (unless you do have Asperger's) that I was using the metaphorical definition of the word, so your "debate" is bullshit.

Why don't you come out and say what your problem really is? Because you surely cannot think I LITERALLY meant that something supernatural CURSED women.

[MichaelHarris]

61. nope

my whole argument was really about the use of the word "curse", nothing more. I found it offensive, if a woman cannot have children is it also a curse?

[Firespirit]

64. If she considers it to be one.

You know the saying, and I paraphrase, one person's blessing is another's curse?

It's not up to a third party to decide what is or is not a curse for someone else. Be offended by the characterization though, we have freedom of opinion here. I'm surprised an OB/GYN would be offended by a woman calling potential children a curse with the health and family history I've related, but I suppose I shouldn't be; there are far too many doctors who let their own moral opinions interfere with their work, so expressing them out of the office must be nothing.

[MichaelHarris]

70. I'm not

an OB/Gyn, I did research in vitamin defiencies during teenage pregnancy. I also did male fertility research. Sorry for the misunderstanding. My wife is a doctor though, she judges no one based upon their choices.

[eleny]

39. Snaps!

[Megahurtz]

49. Yeah you know those OB/GYN's of ours

have been informing us that "the Pullout Method" is the preferred method of Birth Control. :sarcasm:

[MichaelHarris]

53. you

are smart enough to know I only used that as an example in a debate about the use of the words, curse and mistake? I could have said Coca-Cola spray after sex. It's not that I support it, I only used it as an example of a mistake. Basically you're fighting windmills.

[sandnsea]

29. Is not being taught that it's STUPID

not inflicting the punishment of pregnancy or STD's on children??

[MichaelHarris]

31. Birth control

should be taught at all levels, period.

[sandnsea]

32. DUH. That's Obama's point

and to not teach it, or worse, teach it wrong, is PUNISHING children for the omissions of the adults.

[MichaelHarris]

40. Listen

great oracle, I don't even know what happened today. I don't know who said what. I'm not arguing politics, I'm arguing a choice of words, mistake or curse. You need a fucking Powerpoint display?

[Megahurtz]

41. It's SO obvious you are a man.

Try getting pregnant and then get back to me on that one. :eyes:

[MichaelHarris]

43. Can't

because your so much better than me.

[beachmom]

89. Sometimes, even when all precautions are taken, birth control fails.

That is why none of them are 100% effective. Only abstinence is 100% effective, but it is not a practical solution in a society where people are sexually active and don't marry until they're 30. Just because YOU haven't experienced birth control failure, doesn't mean everyone on the planet hasn't.

[HockeyMom]

8. It isn't just unmarried women

I posted this on another thread. My husband was unwanted. His parents were a married couple with one child already. They wanted no more children.

Some people seem to think if a couple has rings on their fingers and are not cheating, they will be happy with any and all children they get.

Not true at all. Fortunately in our world today, sterilization is becoming more and more common when couples don't want more, or any kids.

[redqueen]

10. Thank you.

Very good point.

[Kittycat]

15. Yes, thank you...

I posted my story above.

[HockeyMom]

33. Again to repost

My aunt was 45 years old when she had a therapeutic abortion for her "heart condition" back in the 1940s when abortion was illegal. My uncle was 50 and had just been diagnosed with throat cancer. They had been married 25 years, had two grown daughters, and had a 2 year old grandson. They did not want any more kids.

My aunt told me, when she was in her 70s by the the way, she would have sold her house to get enough money for an abortion.

Again, it is not just unmarried couples.

[BellaLuna]

66. Get your tubes tied

and don't put yourself in that position to begin with. Married women and millionaires should also do what they have to in order to avoid pregnancy in the situation.

flame away

[Firespirit]

69. I'm not going to flame you

Flaming's going on upthread. :P

But such a solution won't be available till I make enough money to get insurance, or work somewhere with it provided.

[eilen]

88. My friend, mother of 5 children

had an in-office, non surgical (but invasive) procedure done to close down the factory called Essure. Both she and her dh work in healthcare. They don't consider their children mistakes, curses or accidents. She decided she just didn't want to have anymore. She doesn't like the pill, she works nights so is tired and zombiefied. They just have to be very careful until her next follow-up (in about 2.5 months). She had conscious sedation I think.

http://www.essure.com/Default.aspx?tabid=55

She is doing very well.

I have no argument with your stand on childbirth (whether you had health conditions or not). People who don't want children, shouldn't have them. If they have them, they should give the child to someone that does. The child is no curse nor punishment, your suffering is. No need to make more people suffer.

Consequences of pregnancy are not punishments. A punishment is a penance someone gives you when you have done something wrong. Pregnancy results when you have done something right. It is a natural biological feat programmed by our genetics to ensure we reproduce. In general, when used appropriately, birth control is very effective. To expect to engage in behavior that causes pregnancy to somehow magically not cause pregnancy is illogical. When pregnancy still happens regardless of birth control used, there are options. These options are generally not popular, they are a poor choice, but still a choice -- in which one person has the right to make.

I guess I wanted to say that if you engage in sex and an unwanted pregnancy results, you are not the victim, the child conceived is and they are the one who will be cursed for just being and will be punished. We have agreed in this country that the person responsible for bearing this child in their body is the person who has the right to decide whether or not to carry the pregnancy to its logical conclusion. The Supreme Court of this Land has ruled that a woman has the right to choose what will happen with her body, --her body is her responsibility thus the authority over reproductive events.

I humbly ask that as the decider (and I am a decider as well, being female and of childbearing age) that we admit the truth of who is the victim, who is most impacted by our decision, and accept the responsibility of our decision and compassionately honor that the sacrifice is shared..... rather than an inconvenience that has been dealt with. In time, you will feel compassion for yourself for having to make this decision, for reasons of feeling powerless due to health condition, financial situation and perhaps lack of support--as I feel compassion for you contemplating this hypothetical and your very defensive argument. We are human beings.

There are some good reasons for choosing not to have children. One of which is genetic disease-- like sickle cell or Huntington's. Your reasons are perfectly reasonable. I hope you do not get pregnant (so you don't have to face this costly decision) and that you can obtain adequate healthcare as well as professional respect at your job (I'll throw in good vibes for better compensation too!). Maybe soon you will get health insurance and will be able to undergo a procedure like Essure and then you won't have to live with that fear anymore.
Namaste

[Kittycat]

94. Well, how about you share your theory with the next 16yo girl that gets raped.

What a thoughtless, response you just gave. Just a bunch of anti-choice BS, that never looks at the real picture - just dreams about snowflake babies.

[eilen]

98. hello? I think we have been disconnected

I am pro choice, my post reflects that. I choose, however not to close my eyes to the reality and take responsibility for my choices. I offered information about a procedure that is not a traditional surgery so may be cheaper. I offered compassion for the lady's health issues and fears of unwanted pregnancy. I also sought to correct the language thrown around. Might I add, that my post required a great amount of thought and care.

A sixteen year old getting raped is a horrific idea. If one became pregnant, would I tell her she must have the child? Absolutely not. Would I offer her support and compassion because of the sacrifice she is making is emotionally difficult in light of how she became pregnant? Yes. Would I support a 16 year old's choice not to have a child who is pregnant -- whether she had been raped or not? Yes. I would not deny that there is a life there that she is too emotionally, physically and mentally fragile to handle. Having to struggle than come to the decision and then actually carrying out an abortion is a punishment. It is very heart breaking. It is physically and emotionally draining. It is not something you can discuss with just anyone, even among your close friends and family.

I am not pro-abortion, I don't believe it is a good thing, only sometimes a needed thing, I do not deny there is a life present-otherwise what need to rid it? I am pro-choice. Those with informed choice and fair understanding of their circumstances make a choice that is best for them and must carry it. It is a hard choice.

I think your comment about "dreams of snowflake babies" is thoughtless, rude and diminishes you.

[Firespirit]

97. What are you trying to express here?

I think you misunderstood. I'm not pregnant. For a long time I haven't even really had a sex drive. Knowing that I have a serious hormonal imbalance, in addition to answering some questions I had as to WHY I was somewhat androgynous with "secondary sex characteristics," has opened the possibility that the lack of a sex drive may not have been innate with me, but was medical. Whenever I get treated, I'll see how it shakes out.

Talking about blessings and curses... the diagnosis is both... it explains the gender issue I had, but getting treated could mean I won't be able to just assume "oh I won't have to worry about pregnancy because I never feel sexual attraction." As was pointed out... birth control fails sometimes. And now not only do I have to worry about possibly having those urges that most other people do, but that if the pill did fail (as it did for my mom twice), I'd be in a risky situation.

And I completely disagree with this.

I guess I wanted to say that if you engage in sex and an unwanted pregnancy results, you are not the victim, the child conceived is and they are the one who will be cursed for just being and will be punished.

No it wouldn't, that child cannot experience PAIN early in the pregnancy, let alone punishment, and it isn't capable of higher brain functions until well later. The mother experiences the pain. She is the one with a keen sense of what it means to die, and she has to deal with that if it is a dangerous pregnancy. The fetus knows nothing. The child is only a victim if it's actually delivered and made to grow up as an unwanted kid, or if it has a birth defect.

[eilen]

99. It's okay to disagree

I revise that both woman and nascent life are victim in unwanted pregnancy and either subsequent abortion or delivery. All options before or after birth require sacrifice and can cause suffering. I was hoping to make language more reflective of objective reality, not to how you felt about having a pregnancy--that it "feels like a punishment"--which is a subjective thing because no one is actually punishing you.

My response to you in particular is that I felt you had fear of unwanted pregnancy and wanted to respond to you with compassion and give you some ideas and send you positive energy that things will work better in your life so you can have better choices... or should I say more preventative choices so you would not have that fear anymore.

I am speaking from life experience. I do not wish to get into an argument about science and purported facts about fetus.

I would like to share that I was also taking birth control pills when I became pregnant. Apparently the other pill I was taking, and antibiotic named tetracycline ---for my skin, rendered the birth control pills ineffective. I was not made aware of this interaction.

If you consent to take anything from me, please take my good will and think about perhaps seeing a holistic health practitioner for your imbalances for help with balancing as well as decreasing symptoms. This may not have to cost you too much, you might be able to arrange a barter arrangement.

[eilen]

100. One more thing....

I now realize the context of your post. I was not aware of the flap about a speech by Barack Obama regarding sex education (I guess it really wasn't about choice). I thought you were stating your fear of pregnancy from the title of your OP. I apologize for my misdirected ideas!

I have read the speech he made. I just think that particular statement was poorly worded but I understood his point. He wishes his daughters to have a moral foundation as well as be informed of birth control and how to prevent STDs. It's a tough world out there. All that criticism of him... taking his words out of context and twisting them to fulfill some accusation.. I think I know how that feels.

I wondered why it was in GD-P!

anyway, well wishes to you.

[sandnsea]

76. What if a 15 year old was never told about tubes or ties?

Then what?

[SemiCharmedQuark]

85. I'm twenty four years old and no doctor is willing to sterilize me permanently.

They require you to have one child already or a health problem.

[Control-Z]

78. I'm just curious about

the topic. Did one or another politician say something to prompt the discussion?

[Firespirit]

79. Obama was discussing sex ed and he said

that he was in favor of comprehensive education, because he didn't want his daughters "punished with a baby." Naturally this prompted outraged posts from some mothers here, saying "My kids are not a punishment." This was meant to show the other side of it.

[DangerousRhythm]

93. Ugh.

This thread is driving me crazy. Let me just say, I agree with you. I have PCOS too, had other unfortunate PCOS-related health problems which basically led me to having NovaSure (endometrial ablation) done, but with the condition of getting my tubes tied at the same time to avoid dangerous pregnancy. Now, this wasn't a problem for me at all, in fact quite welcome since I didn't want kids anyway. The problem here is that I essentially have three built-in forms of protection from pregnancy now... PCOS (I was told I probably haven't produced an egg in my life), a thinned endometrium from the ablation (less chance for an egg to "stick") and cut & burned, tied off tubes. Every time I see new abortion laws I get panicky because this is really a matter of life or death for me.

If I were to become pregnant, there's the possibility I might not realize it until far into it, because ablation has left me with no more visible "cycle", trying to put it in delicate terms. Now, the danger here is that since my endometrium was thinned, a pregnancy could put me at risk for bleeding to death because a potential fetus could puncture it easily. That's just one dangerous situation... there are others. I would need an abortion as SOON as I found out. I've taken precautions but nothing is 100% unless you go the full abstinence route. My point is, nothing is so black and white and arguing semantics is not very productive at all. It's just an exercise in futility and yes, a pregnancy would be a HUGE curse for me, personally, and not being allowed an abortion would most definitely be a punishment, one put in place by people who would consider me a filthy heathen for wanting to "kill a baby" without considering my own dangerous health issues.

Anyway, just wanted to post in support of what you said. :)

[Breeze54]

96. polycystic ovary syndrome runs in my family as well and all but one

of my sisters, including me, have had children.

The sister that didn't; chose not to have babies or get married.

You don't have to have babies, if that's your choice.

I have experienced sexism in hiring and on the job!

What woman hasn't? :shrug: Especially in male dominated fields?

I worked in computers and was one of four women out of 110 men!

The point is it's your choice. It's your life. :hug:

[DemVet]

101. You mean...

not banging the opposite sex DOESN'T prevent pregnancy?

You're NOT DOING it wrong, then.