I want to understand Hillary's healthcare plan.

[DerekJ]

HRC supporters, this is a positive thread. I am genuinely asking you to explain to me how is her plan "Universal"? How does it work?

You don't have to explain the whole plan, just pick a point and elaborate on it. Like how does she plan on reducing the costs? What happens to people who can't afford it? What does she mean by universal? And so on.

[DerekJ]

1. Anybody?!!

[CoffeeCat]

2. I'll explain it...

Hillary Clinton's plan includes a MANDATE.

To achieve "universal coverage" she mandates that people purchase insurance.

That means that people living paycheck to paycheck--will be forced to purchase insurance with extra
money that they don't have.

Her plan is not "universal." It's unattainable.

If Hillary Clinton mandated that every person in America get their hedges trimmed in the shape of
squirrels--does anyone actually believe that people living at or below the poverty line will be
able to afford landscaping?

Her plan is pie in the sky.

Let's all mandate that people who have recently lost their homes---and don't have enough money for food
for their children--go out and purchase a healthcare plan. We'll see what happens.

We all know what will happen.

[DerekJ]

4. That’s what I understand also. Some seem to disagree. So I am trying to get the full picture first.

[Yes We Did]

58. What I want to know is what happens to those who are unemployed?

Or those working for minimum wage? What about them?

[eridani]

7. Single payer is also a mandate, however

--single payer money would go for actual CARE, not the subsidy of private insurance.

We are ALREADY PAYING for universal health care--we just aren't GETTING it.
--Dennis Kucinich

[joshcryer]

19. Hillary and Obama's plan have a national, public, government insurer. People would chose it if...

...there was a mandate. With Obama they'd chose the cheapest insurer, or worse yet, no insurer at all, allowing them to raise the costs for everyone.

[eridani]

22. There is no way we can pay for all the people who would choose the public plan--

--unless private insurers were forced to stop ripping off money from the total pool of health care dollars. Neither candidate has proposed that.

[joshcryer]

26. What? The more people that use it the better the system is. It's like single payer.

A mandate creates an unnatural monopoly on Health Insurance, putting it into the hands of the Government Insurer. The more people in on it the stronger it is.

[eridani]

40. As long as private insurers are in the game, it isn't single payer, period.

If health insurance were a government monopoly with the entire population in one risk pool, that would guarantee medical freedom of choice in every other area. Your community fire department has a monopoly on fire protection, and that is an excellent thing for exactly the same reason.

[joshcryer]

45. Right, but both Hillary and especially Obama conceede that single payer isn't possible...

...politically speaking. So which one do you chose? The one that forces the private companies to compete with a monopolized government insurer, or the one that does no such thing?

[DerekJ]

51. Explain goverment insurer

[eridani]

95. Political possibilities are MADE, not just given

You keep on asking for the fucking pony, even if you'll take a kitten. If you will take $3000 for your used car, ask for $5000. If you want 75% of your legislative agenda enacted, ask for 150%.

The Rethugs do this--why can't we?

[DerekJ]

50. That's right.

[OzarkDem]

56. Clinton's plan caps premiums for private insurance

They'll be forced to keep premiums down if they don't want to be in the pool

Their costs and premiums will be higher so they'll be forced out of business since they won't be able to compete w/ a public plan.

BTW, employers and individuals will be able to purchase the public plan.

[joshcryer]

61. Thanks OzarkDem, I was struggling with answering this.

The plan was intended to be universial and it damn well is. People saying it's not are liars.

[joshcryer]

63. Now that I read a refresher, her plan really does fuck the insurance companies.

It's freaking incredibly progressive.

[DerekJ]

71. What is her public plan?

That's my question all along.

[OzarkDem]

74. It will be a plan like Medicare

Page 6

http://www.hillaryclinton.com/feature/healthcareplan/americanhealthchoicesplan.pdf


"3) A Choice of a Public Plan Option: In addition to the array of private insurance choices
offered, the Health Choices Menu will also provide Americans with a choice of a public plan
option, which could be modeled on the traditional Medicare program, but would cover the
same benefits as guaranteed in private plan options in the Health Choices Menu without
creating a new bureaucracy. The alternative will compete on a level playing field with
traditional private insurance plans. It will provide a more affordable option, in part through
greater administrative savings. It will not be funded through the Medicare trust fund."


Edwards offered the same thing, and Obama has mentioned something similar. I think the Medicare trust fund is set up in such a way that you couldn't expand it to non-elderly people, you have to create a new plan.

[DerekJ]

76. Would the new Medicare system accept anybody in it?

I mean like rich, or poor, old or young?

[joshcryer]

78. Why not?

[OzarkDem]

85. Yes, individuals and employers too

Low income folks will still be in Medicaid because its free.

[DerekJ]

87. Ok so let me get this straight!!

Medicare will cover anyone who can afford it .
Medicaid will cover all the poor who can't?!!

[eridani]

97. "It will not be funded through the Medicare trust fund"

That's the fly in the ointment. If it were a real public plan, it would be funded through the Medicare Trust Fund.

[eridani]

96. The premiums are still unaffordable

And she has private companies running the public plan, if I understand correctly that it will be like what government employees have.

[mac2]

91. The rich have to be part of the plan or like in England it

won't work that well. No private insurance for the elite or tax funding for the poor.

[Yes We Did]

59. I love the spin... really I do.

[joshcryer]

60. Feel free to substantiate your non-sense.

[joshcryer]

29. BTW, I don't understand how Single Payer isn't insurance.

The basic idea is the same. If more healthy people are paying into the bank roll, than sick people, then the sick people will be taken care of.

That's how insurance works, that's how single payer works. It's a 'tax' on income/wages to pay for your place in society.

[DerekJ]

33. Nope, not exactly.

See with single payer system, the money comes from the government, and the government gets its money from the taxes. Since everybody pays taxes, the rich effectively pays for the healthcare of the poor, because they inject more money than they NEED to pay into the system, thus creating a balance. That’s why it’s called socialized medicine. If you have both government, and private insurance. The rich will flock to the private insurance, because it will be cheaper to them, rendering the government one bankrupt.

[joshcryer]

36. Erm, the "insurance plan" is a tax. It comes out of your paycheck every month.

When you get your paycheck and it says something like "blue cross" on it, you might not call it a tax, but that's dang sure what it is.

There are more poor than there are rich. That's the beauty of the system, instead of poor people paying into the coffers of the rich insurance companies and CEOs and shareholders, they'd be paying back into their own pockets.

The rich would be compelled to go with the government insurer because the private insurers would be unable to compete with a system that has millions of purchasees. In effect Hillary's proposal would break most of the lower level insurers, which is why Obama refuses to have a mandate, because he thinks it would be harder to pass.

[DerekJ]

48. No, not at all.

Because you can only mandate, and consequently charge only individuals for health care plan, not corporations. In Canada, corporations produce billions of dollars, gets taxed, hundreds of millions of dollars, that money goes to health care system.

We are also charged 14% sales tax on everything we buy, to pay for that system. You can never bankroll the mandated system by just charging individuals based on their income bracket for health care. The money the rich pays will never cover the poor. And as long as there are private insurers out there, the money the rich pays will go to them because, the private insurer will be CHEAPER, because they don't have to cover the poor.

[joshcryer]

54. What happens when all the healthy people leave a rich insurer...

...that same rich insurer that is colding old rich farts who are assholes?

Think carefully as to what happens when all those young healthy people flock to the government insurerer because it's mandated.

[mac2]

94. They don't call the National Health Care "insurance" in the

rest of the developed world because it is non-profit and government run. There are no insurance companies with CEOs and shareholders to profit off health care.

No our costs aren't higher because we give better care. We rank 35th in the world and falling lower every year. It ain't the best and it ain't cheap.

[cooolandrew]

39. Yep which shows how out of touch she is in her world everyone can afford it.

[cooolandrew]

42. Let alone subsidies (if any) will mst likely be withdrawn under Republicans.

[cooolandrew]

44. DK had the best government payer not for profit plan

[joshcryer]

46. But DK is not a viable candidate.

[cooolandrew]

55. Really. Well I guess that's all that mattered issuse came second.

[mac2]

93. DK and JE were out of the race since they were Progressives

and the leadership in our party didn't want them to win. On the Democrats.com sight they were in the lead. They got no support or money like the pro-war, etc. candidates. The media ignored them and even made fun of them.

As I stated previously...National Health Care was a mandate in the 2006 election. They act like it is a new and frivolous idea.

[mac2]

92. He did.

Wasn't National Health Care a mandate in the 2006 election? We said, we wanted it.

[joshcryer]

43. If you can't afford it then you don't pay. Obama is the one thinking he can make it affordable.

Yet the studies have shown that his plan costs twice as much and insures half as many.

Filling the pockets of corporate interests indeed.

[OzarkDem]

62. She has a cap on premiums

not to exceed 5% to 10% of income. Her plan also expands coverage for low income people under Medicaid.

Its paid for by eliminating tax cuts and by cutting health care costs. Universal care provides more preventive care, which is far less expensive than cost of treating uninsured people who wait until they're sick to seek help.

A number of health care think tanks like Kaiser Family Foundation and Commonwealth Fund have crunched the numbers and its very realistic.

[bhikkhu]

47. The "mandate" part - also known as "mandatory"

is what makes it affordable. That is, the young and healthy who have no concern for health care (and I know - I was insured through employers for 15 years, with only one or two hospital visits) will be required to pay in, subsidizing those with families and greater needs. The argument is that this is the fiscal necessity for making it practical...

I would like to have health insurance now, and would like to be able to insure my daughters. But I still don't like this plan and would demand, as a free citizen, to have a choice.

Also more realistically (perhaps pessimistically), our economy must be transformed away from massively expensive global militarism before we can ever afford domestic health care.

[DerekJ]

3. I am sure there must be one Hillary supporter who understands her plans !!!

[havocmom]

6. Isn't Hillary the one behind on payments for insurance for campaign workers?

THAT is why you aren't hearing from her chorus ;) They don't wanna talk health insurance right now.

[DerekJ]

5. HELLOOOOOOOOOOOO

[DerekJ]

8. Common, Really?!!

Not one!!

[zalinda]

9. Okay, I'm not a Clinton supporter, but even I know this one

It's very simple. There are 2 ways to get insurance, one through a private company and one through the government. If you want to use a private company, then that's fine. But, if you can't afford a private company or don't want it, you can go through the government program. The cost for the government program will be prorated on the amount of money you earn. So, under a certain amount of income, it will cost you nothing.

The crap about forcing you to buy health insurance or eating is bunk and nothing more. Without mandates you get people who couldn't be bothered to get insurance, they figure they are healthy or nothing will happen to them. Then bam, these stupid people drink and drive and they end up in the hospital for 3 months. Who's going to pay for it?
And who is most likely to not get insurance, the young and irresponsible. Everyone paying into the pool spreads the cost around to everyone, not just the people who are smart enough to take the time to get insurance.

zalinda

[Kittycat]

11. But it's still a mandate. Which means..

If you're not getting it/affording it through your employer - someone in Washington is going to come up with a magic number, and you're going to be forced to pay it - whether you can afford it or not, and regardless to other financial commitments in place before the mandate came in to effect.

Does that sound about right?

[joshcryer]

27. That's precisely how single payer is. Do you not know about single payer?

The same system Obama himself said he'd support if we were "starting from scratch"? (A pretty empty statement though it may have been.)

[DerekJ]

12. ok so does that mean that hillary will initiate a goverment run, people funded health insurance

company?

[Kittycat]

15. No, at least not to my understanding.

Her plan will leverage private insurance companies to cover the management and payouts.

[DerekJ]

16. That's why I am asking Hillary supporters to explain to me, how it's going to work.

I know how the single payer healthcare system works, because I pay for it here. What I want to know is how she is going to make it a step closer to the single payer system.

From what I understand, the money doesn't add up.

[joshcryer]

25. That is completely wrong, both Hillary and Obama want to use the Senate Health Plan and extend it.

They want to turn a system we *already have* into something for everyone. But Obama doesn't have a mandate so what happens is that guy who never had health insurance goes into the hospital, Patients Bill Of Rights mandates that he gets treated (we can't throw our fellow citizens into the street; though it does happen, not always), and the cost of his stay has to be sunk by others in the society.

Obama leaves the Government Insurer to Chance.

[DerekJ]

30. I understand the boarder idea, I want to understand the mechanism, so I can asses it’s feasibility

I can say I will give free healthcare to everybody. Doesn’t mean I can.

[joshcryer]

32. Nothing is free!

You gotta pay for it!

Paul Krugman has the best analysis:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/04/opinion/04krugman.html?_r=2&oref=slogin&oref=slogin

Of course he's demonized here so what can you say.

[joshcryer]

23. No, both her and Obama want to extend the Senate Health Insurer to *everyone.*

[DerekJ]

28. My question is how?

I am bieng told you either go with the priovate health insurer or the goverment one.

So I am asking is she will make a goverment run health insurance company?!

[joshcryer]

31. You take Medicare and you extend it.

Medicare *is* the "government run health insurer."

[DerekJ]

35. You have to raise taxes.

[joshcryer]

38. Yes, that's Obama's scare tactic. But Hillary only proposes to reverse Bush's tax cuts.

Simple.

[OzarkDem]

65. All Dem candidates have proposed a public health insurance program like Medicare

and Medicare is a very successful program.

Its government run health insurance though, not government run health care.

[DerekJ]

73. Money!! You will need to expand it beyond the breaking point. How are you going to finance that?!!

[joshcryer]

81. The same way you would with any other system. Tax people! Oh no! Evil tax!

[DerekJ]

89. Lord!! I am not the one against taxation. Please stop insinuation I am using tax as a fear factor

here.

Why would I when I am paying up to three times your sales tax?! I am stating the truth. If you are going to mandate health care, you have to reduce costs for the poor, and eliminate it for unemployed ( or at least don’t fine them for being unable to buy it). To do that you either kick the insurance companies in the teeth, and get everyone in one pool. Or you raise taxes. There is no third way.

[mac2]

10. Universally we all get to pay our money to insurance companies.

Is Obama's health plan different?

I don't think there is a leading candidate who wants health care for all as a govenment plan not private. Imagine that?

[Kittycat]

13. Obama's plan is different.

It's only mandated for children/young adults through age 25, optional thereafter. However, his plan gives immediate relief (subsidies) to help cover costs that are in excess of income - vs. back-ended tax credits after the fact.

The best way to sum it up... Hillary's plan is like Romney's in Mass, that's evolved in to a colossal failure.

[DerekJ]

14. I am not speaking about Obama's healthcare plan. I really want to understand how Hillary is going to

make it universal. I ACTUALLY DO WANT TO KNOW. I am not being an ass.

[joshcryer]

21. Their plans are close but Hillary has subsidies for low income families, and a mandate.

Obama doesn't subsidize low income families (but he does cover all children) as far as I remember, and because he lacks a mandate people will game the system.

[OzarkDem]

67. Yes, both Clinton and Obama offer choice of a public plan

Clinton has also proposed an cap on premiums not to exceed 5-10% of income.

[mac2]

90. Won't work.

We spend more than anyone in the world now. We can have a National Health Care plan without more money...or limits. We don't need to ask for more tax dollars for the poor.

[DerekJ]

17. Seriously!! None of her supporters understand her healthcare plan?!!

[OzarkDem]

68. Sure, its right here

What do you want to know?

http://www.hillaryclinton.com/feature/healthcareplan/americanhealthchoicesplan.pdf

[DerekJ]

18. **crickets***

[joshcryer]

20. I did not see your topic or I would've posted earlier.

[DerekJ]

24. Thanks, joshcryer. Can you please read the posts above, and answer post number 12. Thank you.

[joshcryer]

34. Basically Hillary stole Edwards' plan here and there. I hope to *God* the plan can happen once Obama

...is nominated. I fear Obama's solution is a *disaster* of epic proportions and it will *hurt* social services in the USA for decades.

[DerekJ]

37. They are all unattainable, in post #33 I said:

See with single payer system, the money comes from the government, and the government gets its money from the taxes. Since everybody pays taxes, the rich effectively pays for the healthcare of the poor, because they inject more money than they NEED to pay into the system, thus creating a balance. That’s why it’s called socialized medicine. If you have both government, and private insurance. The rich will flock to the private insurance, because it will be cheaper to them, rendering the government one bankrupt.

[joshcryer]

41. This is not what happened in the UK when they implemented a similar system.

It's not.

[DerekJ]

49. To do that you have to compare how people are taxes in each country,

We pay a lot more taxes in Canada (almost 10% more on everything we buy) to cover the healthcare system.
You HAVE to raise taxes. There is no way you extend Medicare, or cover the poor, without getting the rich to pay for that.

[joshcryer]

52. You confuse reversing Bush's tax cut with "raising taxes." Drop the RW rhetoric, please.

[DerekJ]

64. !!! What RW rhetoric?!!!

What I am saying is:
To have a system that mandates people have health insurance, you have to make it affordable to the poor.
To make it affordable to the poor you have to do one of two things
1- Make them all in a single payer system, where the rich and the poor are in the same risk pool, and the taxes money covers everybody, effectively getting the rich to share in the costs for healthcare for the poor. Or,
b- Raise the taxes on the rich to bankroll an expanded Medicare system to lower the costs on the poor in order to be able to finance Medicare system. The rich can then go and use a private health insurer.

[joshcryer]

66. Even the poor would have to pay into a single payer system.

Hillary's plan makes their payments proportional, just like a single payer system would do.

This scare mongering about "paying taxes" is what got us into this mess in the first place.

[DerekJ]

79. No that is not true.

If you are unemployed, and don't make money, the system covers you regardless.

[joshcryer]

83. So does this one.

[OzarkDem]

70. Obama won't push for a Clinton-type health care plan

He's stated in no uncertain terms he only supports his plan.

If you want a good health care plan, vote for Clinton. She will push for her plan and get it done.

[joshcryer]

75. Unfortunately I don't see her winning, but it'd be awesome if it happened.

Her policies are superior to Obama's in every way. It's amazing that he's the "better progressive" in this debate when her plans are clearly more progressive.

[OzarkDem]

82. If she doesn't win, we're screwn on health care reform

Obama won't push a good plan and Congress (as a whole) doesn't have enough guts to do it on their own. Dennis and others will put better plans forward, but Obama won't back them. He's already said so.

[joshcryer]

84. We're fucked.

Goddamnit.

Paul Krugman even pointed out how his lack of mandates prevents him from being able to fix his plan, because they'd throw it back in his face.

[OzarkDem]

86. Have faith

I gotta go to bed. Work tomorrow.

[joshcryer]

88. Me too, take care.

[OzarkDem]

53. Here is a good link

to compare them. Its a complex issue, but one that is very important. The differences in their plans are the universal aspect

http://www.health08.org/sidebyside_results.cfm?c=11&c=16

[joshcryer]

57. Ahh, "Federal Employee Health Benefits Program"! I was trying to remember what it was called.

I called it Medicare, which I'm sure will make people call me a "liar."

[OzarkDem]

72. No, that's a different one

FEHBP is an existing privately run insurance program for government employees, including Congress. People can choose that one also as a "private" insurance option.

She also proposes creating real public insurance program like Medicare. That will be a new program that everyone can buy into.

Page 2 at this link illustrates it pretty well

http://www.hillaryclinton.com/feature/healthcareplan/americanhealthchoicesplan.pdf

[joshcryer]

80. Oh, OK, so my memory was right to begin with. Thanks!

[DerekJ]

69. I am not asking for links. I want to know how you understand it, we spend an awful long time

doing nothing but attack each other here. How about a nice post on your candidate health care plane as you understand it for a change?

[OzarkDem]

77. Health care reform is detailed

The more you try to explain health care reform in this forum, the more it gets twisted. This side by side comparison is one of the better, easy to understand summaries. I took the time to study it and learn the differences, everyone should.

http://www.health08.org/sidebyside_results.cfm?c=11&c=16

Clinton's plan is better because

Its universal - covers everyone

Forces private insurance companies to compete w/ public ones

Puts a cap on premiums and helps people and employers pay for it

Isn't linked to employment - a big problem for many people who get sick and have to take time off work

Has good provisions for lowering health care costs - especially by providing health care (including preventive) to everyone

Is sustainable for the long term