Obama Supporters, Don't you understand what you've done?

[amelia]

I have been just lurking here and reading this election season, but I have been around DU since 2000. I haven't posted a lot so please don't say that I'm a "newbie" because I'm not.

I have never seen such venom and hostility towards another Democrat as I have seen from some people here toward the Clintons. They have been great candidates in our party and for you to call them the things that I have read is just horrible. Please don't try to use the argument "but the Clinton people have trashed Obama". They are just a drop in the bucket compared to these attacks.

I hadn't decided who to vote for, after Edwards dropped out, until I heard the reports that the Obama campaign used the race card against Bill Clinton in S.C. I couldn't believe it! Bill Clinton, a racist? That has to be the dumbest thing I ever heard. Then I started reading the so called "progressive blogs and websites". I was absolutely astounded by the drivel these people were posting, and the fact that they sounded exactly like a far right wing Republican website. I couldn't tell the difference until they started their "adorating" for Obama. Then MoveOn endorsed Obama and then asked me for more money to help promote his campaign. Any website that asks for donations, has no business endorsing any candidate in a primary, if they are promoting Democratic candidates against Republicans. As for Buzzflash, I don't even go to that website at all let alone give them any more money. Evidently, vitriolic headlines doesn't bring in the money they need. Too bad for them, they should have kept neutral or at least consistently critical of both candidates.

Every time I have read a lie about Clinton or read an uncalled for personal insult that has nothing to do with political discussion, or heard some fat cat official calling for Clinton to drop out, it has hardened me with every word against Obama. The sad thing is that the only personal things I had in the beginning against him were that I thought he didn't have enough experience and that he let his campaign make bad decisions for him such as the race card against Bill Clinton, and the Repugs haven't vetted his closet skeletons. We all know how well they do this, thanks to the fires of hell that the Clintons walked through as our Democratic leaders. Most of you were their friends and defenders then, what happened to you?

Every pundit, and blogger with each personal insult has driven the animosity deeper with every blow. I'm at the point that I can't even watch Obama give a speech, just as I can't watch bush. That should be a clue that I feel I've been GOP'ed by the anti Clinton people. I know that's not right, but I can't help it because my resentment for all the unfair criticism against Clinton is now very deep and it's because of all of this hatred from other people I have turned against Obama.

I have been a "yellow dog Democrat" all my life, which should tell you that I have held my nose and still voted for my straight Democratic ticket a few times. I always vote a straight Democratic ticket. A few weeks ago I would still have voted for who ever won the primary, but not now. As I said, the resentment runs deep and with every unfair insult and lie, it gets deeper.

I can't vote for a Republican, but I will leave the box beside the president blank or write in another candidates name, and I will vote a straight Democratic ticket the rest of the way on it, but I will not vote for Obama and you have yourselves to thank for that.

Trust me when I say that there are many, many people who feel the same way I do and many of them will vote for McCain, or will do what I plan to do.

Do you finally understand what you've done? You didn't have to go this far. Why you did I'll never understand. You were so "motivated" by your candidate, that you pushed him right out of any chance of winning the GE if he wins the primary.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

1. Yet you've never noticed any of the venom directed at Obama on DU?

Never?

Please. :eyes:

[joshcryer]

16. I don't think they said that at all.

But you can feel free to actually read the fucking post.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

29. I read the post.

The criticisms of Obama were totally legitimate according to the OP. They were just about his experience and the issues and stuff. No thinly-veiled racism, no references to his supporters being in a "cult", nothing offensive at all. :eyes:

Please.

[joshcryer]

The poster is clearly overwhelmed by the Hillary hate.

I'd be surprised if they could find positive things said about Hillary that weren't thrown under the bus by Obama supporters.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

43. The poster is overwhelmed by what she chooses to be overwhelmed by.

[indimuse]

198. who are you...

Dr Laura?

[YOY]

481. It's about time for you to play cutesies again and stop everyone from thinking you're a troll

Then you can go on posting hitpieces again.

[pnwmom]

518. Following a poster around from thread to thread is against the DU rules.

The poster said nothing here to deserve that attack.

[YOY]

648. Then it's a good thing I don't do it.

I do however remember who spits crap and then acts all sweety pie as if nothing was ever said.

I love to point that very thing out when I happen to see them doing it in a thread I happen to be looking at.

Pretty damn sure that's not against the rules.

[pnwmom]

668. You need a refresher course on the rules, assuming you've ever read them.

Here you go:

Do not post personal attacks or engage in name-calling against other individual members of this discussion board. Even very mild personal attacks are forbidden.

Do not hurl insults at other individual members of this message board. . . .

Do not publicly accuse another member of this message board of being a . . . troll, or do not otherwise imply they are not welcome on Democratic Underground. . . .

Do not "stalk" another member from one discussion thread to another. Do not follow someone into another thread to try to continue a disagreement you had elsewhere. Do not talk negatively about an individual in a thread where they are not participating. Do not post messages with the purpose of "calling out" another member or picking a fight with another member. Do not use your signature line to draw negative attention to another member of the board.

You are permitted to post polite behavioral corrections to other members of the message board, in direct response to specific instances of incivility, provided that your comments are narrowly focused on the behavior. But you are not permitted to make broad statements about another person's behavior in general, and you are not permitted to post repeated reminders about another person's mistakes.

SNIP

[YOY]

682. Thank you DU Volunteer police

But I didn't break a damn one of those rules and please until you're deputized I highly recommend to kindly stop nitpicking people's posts without knowing the whole story.

If someone spits out non-stop flame bait and Rovesque whisper campaigns so numerous that and I stumble upon them so incredibly easily and cannot help but to comment the damn obvious then I recommend asking Skinner to make a new rule:

"Do not point out the obvious."

[pnwmom]

684. "You are not permitted to make broad statements about another person's

behavior in general."

That is just one of the rules you broke. If you read a bit more carefully, maybe you'll find the others.

You're welcome.

[YOY]

685. Well by that broad brush interpretation so have you.

And everyone else here.

So call off your dogs or wallow in hypocrisy.

and once again...who died and made you sherrif?

[pnwmom]

687. This all began because you appointed yourself

the Head of the Thought Police. As you said,

"I do however remember who spits crap and then acts all sweety pie as if nothing was ever said.

I love to point that very thing out when I happen to see them doing it in a thread I happen to be looking at."


The person you replied to had said nothing objectionable in this thread. But you had disagreements with him from other threads, so you attempted to call him out in this one.

Since you indicated that you "love" to do this when you see "them" doing it in a thread, it appeared to me that you were unaware of the rules against bringing up past disagreements in a new thread. Now you know.

[YOY]

689. Oh puh-lease...

:eyes:

[Stuckinthebush]

252. Perfect point

We tend to see what we want to see.

[Ganja Ninja]

468. exactly.

There's been an endless barrage of shit slinging from both sides but only the Obama supporters are out of line.
:silly:

[TheWraith]

77. You do realize that that message makes no sense, right?

Besides the simple falseness of the premise, your metaphor is completely illogical and means nothing. Positive things were thrown under the bus?

Thank you, though, for once again proving that your only counter argument is to accuse the other side of irrational hatred. First it was Bush-haters, now it's Hillary-haters.

[joshcryer]

134. I posted a thread about how I believe Obama will be the nominee.

I stated in that thread that Hillary would be the VP.

This was a positive observation.

Hillary was summarily called a number of things, not least of which was "nutjob."

So please understand the metaphor more clearly.

[jettison]

452. ok

Hillary may have been called a "nutjob", but a Hillary supporter would call Obama a "god damned fucking nutjob" because that's how bitter the rhetoric has become.

[October]

615. Backwards

There is far more ugliness directed towards Hillary here at DU. It's disgusting.

I'm voting for the Democratic nominee. Period.

I, too, have been overwhelmed by the hatred toward HRC here. Wow.

[jettison]

688. more ugliness

There is more ugliness directed toward HRC. I agree 100%. The main reason for that is because DU has basically turned into an Obama board. It would seem like 90% of the active posters are now pro-Obama. I'm sure the actual numbers are closer to 70/30, but the HRC crowd has been silenced to some degree because the Obama onslaught has been overwhelming. So, frustration sets in...

I'm just happy that you didn't say "It's fucking disgusting" like so many have been apt to do lately. I do agree that the Obama folks have been overzealous in their HRC critiques, and I'll be voting for HRC should she miraculously win the nomination.


As for the hatred itself, I must admit that as turned off as I've been by some supporters of each candidate, HRC herself has turned me off much more then Obama ever has. Pastor-gate was a non-issue for me, but the Bosnian sniper tale was a non-issue as well. Politicians stretch the truth, and I expect that it will come from both sides.

However, when Hillary was asked directly whether she thought Obama was a Muslim, and then she insinuated that she didn't know... I just lost a lot of respect for her that day. And when she insinuated that the Republican candidate would be much more ready to lead out country then Obama, my respect sunk even further. How could she sell out her own party like that? James Carville calls Richardson a Judas for endorsing Obama, and yet Hillary basically endorsed the repub nominee over Obama. I will NEVER understand that.

Again, I will vote for HRC, but my respect for her was really shaken after those two instances.

[TomBall Democrat]

257. Weak.

[youngharry]

603. the messages is nothing more than disinformation or uninformed

Apparently, the young lady doesn't understand that many posters here are Repubs trying to cause internal damage to the Party. Yes, I have watched too and never saw anything out of line from an Obama supporter other than to take down Hillary's lies--e.g. Bosnia, NAFTA, etc. if you think that is unfair to call Hillary out on her lies, then you are nothing more than a paid propagandist here for disinformation purposes, ONLY. YOUR POST DOESN'T resonate with me SORRY!!!

[papau]

642. Sad - because the OP's post makes a great deal of sense - and expresses the view of many many

seniors and over 40 women that I talk to.

An Obama-Clinton ticket, in any order - might worl for November, but those that say this time will be like every other time when the losing side joined forces for the general are forgetting 1968.

HHH was a good man - and should of been elected in 68 - but the hate from the Spring was never dealt with and we did not come together.

Indeed even in 68 I bit my Tongue and voted for HHH - but this time - if Clinton is not part of the ticket - half the folks I know will not return in Nov - and I may well be with them. I could never vote for McCain - but the smears and the lies about Hillary are to much - and indeed have little to do with being for Obama.

They show both hate of overachieving women ("Hillary expects to be given the nomination just because she is so smart") and a need that women in high office must seen as being given that office by a man - indeed many female Obama supporters seem more comfortable with the female as helper rather than with the female as more than mid-level leader.

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

150. Hillary's negative campaign, her camps attack on Richardson

this stuff makes Dems mad, and its losing her support across the board.

She's used the Rove play book.

Her kitchen sink is nasty.

[joshcryer]

153. Yet she still polls even with Obama.

You don't realize that the two sides are completely at each others throats, but online Obama supporters overwhelm Hillary supporters 10 to 1.

[JVS]

205. Maybe on the telephone polling that's being done, but when it comes time for people to vote

she loses. Repeatedly, and often quite badly.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

228. Loses?

If you count FL and MI they are tied...Even if you excise MI and FL because you don't believe they are states that are allowed to vote Obama beats are 47% to 46%...

Your facts are in error...

[JVS]

231. Count the delegates

[DemocratSinceBirth]

238. You Make It Sound As If She Was Being Shut Out

It's a lot closer than you suggest but don't take my word for it:


http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/primaries/results/scorecard/


Oh, and if we had a winner take all delegate system instead of the current byzantine one Hillary Clinton would be winning ...

[JVS]

239. if ifs and buts were candy and nuts, we'd all have a merry christmas

Hillary is losing, deal with it.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

245. "Deal With It"

What if I don't want to deal with it?

Are you going to beat me up?

That would require wresting yourself away from your mommy's computer


Wahhhhhhhhh

[JVS]

267. Ohhh Waaaaaahhhhhh yourself.

You're the one who is demonstrating either an inability or unwillingness to deal with the outcome of the primary elections. If you are determined not to vote for Obama when he is the nominee, you should ask the mods if they'll change your handle to DemocratUntilObama. Or better yet maybe they'll ban you for opposing the nominee. Get ready for the day, because it's coming.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

270. Maybe I

Maybe I will have to change my name to

DemocratUntilIWasCalledARacistLyingUndereducatedWhiteVoterByOtherDemocrats.

[JVS]

275. you forgot part

DemocratUntilIWasCalledARacistLyingUndereducatedWhiteVoterByOtherDemocratsAndWasNotDedicatedEnough ToMyDemocraticPrincipleToBeAbleToCopeWithItAndVoteForTheProperPartyAnyway.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

285. God's Truth

There is a positive relationship between my feeling about Senator Obama and the time I spend away from politics... I come off thinking two things; Obama's not a bad guy and John McCain would endanger almost everything I believe in should he become president.

[JVS]

289. Well then I sincerely suggest you spend some time away from politics.

Because John McCain is no fucking joke, and it's important that voters, including you, are able to vote for his opponent, who in all likelyhood is going to be Obama. If taking a break is your way of dealing with this situation, that's fine. At least it's constructive.

[Name removed]

673. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TomBall Democrat]

258. My high school civics teacher, Mr. Dean always said that

haven't heard it in years!


If its and buts were sugar and nuts, what a Merry Christmas we'd have!

Thanks for the memory and the laugh!

[Bluenorthwest]

299. My civics teacher

In a rabidly Republican and affluent area, taught us how to fuck the elections of the other side by switching Party and other methods of voter organization.
So maybe that is why they keep winning and we keep hearing catchy phrases with a lack of substance?

If quotes and rhymes
Were votes and dimes
What a liberal land we would have!

[TomBall Democrat]

377. Mr. Dean was a rapid Republican too

Really irked him that I was his best student.

Only one who could win an argument with him.

Or cared to.

It was great training for me - and even though I don't think he liked me very much - I learned a great deal from him.

[GOTV]

277. What if I excise MI and FL for legitimate reasons instead of the ridiculous reasons you offered?

That debating tactic marks you as someone not interested in real discussion.

Let's talk about Hillary. Even if you support Hillary because you favor the destruction of the human race blah blah blah....

absurd.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

312. I Am Interested In Real Discussion

Why should my primary vote not count because of the malfeasance of others?

The DNC should have punished the legislators who voted to move the date and not the innocent voters...

[GOTV]

417. The question then is why do you load your question with ridiculous justifications?

If you want to talk about MI and FL why do you insert an absurd justification for keeping them out?

You're interested in "Real" discussion with imaginary people who deny that FL and MI are states apparently. No one makes that argument so why would anyone want to enter a discussion with someone with so little understanding of the opposite side?

[1monster]

513. Amen!

[jettison]

454. if, if, if....

What of these ifs? They couldn't be more irrelevent. The only people that believe that MI and FL "aren't allowed to vote" are the powers that be in MI and FL. They are the ones that cheated the process, cheated the rules, and held illegal primaries. How hard would it have been for them to just follow the rules like 48 other states did? So tired of this argument.

[RaleighNCDUer]

462. It's all a matter of misdirection --

The DLC orchestrated this fuckup with the intent of undermining the DNC and Dr Dean - his way of doing things was too effective, and their raison d'etre is to squash any populist progressive movement before it gets started. The DLC knew they were breaking the rules, and knew they could turn the blame onto Dr Dean, thus undercutting his base while increasing their own, and the VOTERS didn't figure into it at all except as pawns for the DLC - like ususal. THE DLC IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE VOTES NOT COUNTING.

Rovian tactics at their best - Lee Atwater would be proud.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

482. Don't Punish Me For Someone Else's Acts ...That's Not How We Roll In America

If my neigbor's son steals my lawn mower I'm not going to kick my neigbor's ass...

[jettison]

490. exactly!

So, if your state's policy makers are so clueless that they would risk "disenfranchising" (according to Hillary's camp) their state's voters by blantantly breaking the rules, why would you blame Obama? Or blame Dean? Or blame the DNC? You blame the people that messed it all up, or in your metaphor, you blame your neighbor's son (the Florida and Michigan powers that be), the one who stole your lawnmower.

So, go complain to your neighbor's son. Makes sense. I'm with you.

[musicblind]

677. Because the DNC did make an incorrect choice. Not in deciding to punish the misconduct

but in deciding to punish the WRONG people for the misconduct. Just as the above poster stated. you would not punish the neighbor for something the neighbors friend did. The Supers from that state should have lost their delegates. The people should not, however, have lost their votes. Certainly not 100% of their votes. The rules stated they would only lose 50% of those votes, however the DNC decided to bend THOSE rules in order to take away 100% of the states votes. It was poorly handled by the DNC and shows bad leadership decisions that have put us in an even MORE awkward situation than we should be. IMO.

[jettison]

453. online

The online crowd is the most savy by far. They have access to the most information, they do the most research, they read about takes from all sides, and yet the Obama supporters outnumber the Hillary ones 10 to 1. By contrast, most 65 year old white women who can't operate their VCR, but can watch Fox News and read the local paper have chosen Hillary by a wide margin. Coincidence?

[Alexander]

458. Since when is 52%-42% "polling even"?

On what planet do they consider a 10-point Obama lead "polling even"?

:rofl:

[hell-bent]

552. Why don't you disconnect from the Mother Ship?

10 point lead? That fucking poll poll is older than Methuselah. Why not tune into the RCP website and get the latest polls. Perhaps you are spending too much time attempting to get your pro-Obama email read on the Cafferity File. Rasmussen latest tracking poll: Clinton by 1!

[Alexander]

672. The Gallup poll I cited is a whopping TWO DAYS old. Turn your Shillbot mode to "off".

http://www.boxxet.com/Barack_Obama/Gallup_Obama_Pulling_Away_From_Clinton.1mtl17.d

"Sun, Mar 30 Sen. Barack Obama has extended his lead over Sen. Hillary Clinton among Democrats nationally to 52% to 42%, the third consecutive Gallup tracking poll in which he has held a statistically significant lead, and Obama's largest lead of the year so far."

"That fucking poll poll is older than Methuselah."

1. What's a "poll poll"?

2. Was Methuselah born yesterday? He'd have to be to be younger than that poll. And you sure act like you were. :rofl:

"Why not tune into the RCP website and get the latest polls."

Okay, I did. Apart from them missing a few recent polls, here were the last four they cited:

Gallup Tracking 03/30 - 04/01 1262 V 49 46 Obama +3.0
Rasmussen Tracking 03/29 - 04/01 900 LV 44 45 Clinton +1.0
NBC/WSJ 03/24 - 03/25 RV 45 45 Tie
Pew Research 03/19 - 03/22 618 RV 49 39 Obama +10.0

"Rasmussen latest tracking poll: Clinton by 1!"

And here's the disclaimer for that Rasmussen poll you cited.

"Daily tracking results are collected via nightly telephone surveys and reported on a four-day rolling average basis. The general election sample is currently based upon interviews with 1,600 Likely Voters. The margin of sampling error is +/- 3 percentage points with a 95% level of confidence."

So Clinton ahead by 1, with a 3% margin of error, means it's a tie. Wow. That's the best you can do?

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[DemocratSinceBirth]

226. That Is Fair

Is it also fair to infer that you don't want the support of her "nasty" supporters in November?

If it is not fair please tell me why not?

I would not want the support of those I thought were nasty. Am I incorrect for feeling that way?

[shagsak]

489. It's not about the fairness within the party

it's the fairness considering the big picture. If the nominee does not have complete support of the democratic people, then they will probably lose the presidency. Repugs don't play these games, they exhibit party loyalty in high numbers. United we stand, divided we fall.

I don't care how nasty a voter is. I'm not the nasty police. We don't need anymore repug SCOTUS appointees.

[niceypoo]

261. And all the vitriol and venom against the Clintons isnt negative campaigning?

Isn't that what Bush did in 2000 and 2004? Had his supporters go full blown negative while he pretended to be above the fray?

Hope my ass.

[PoliticalAmazon]

335. The Clintons repeatedly attacked Obama supporters, and have earned the voters' anger. n/t

[eagertolearn]

310. Obama has kept it clean and his supporters have been responding

in defense of him (too defensive to be effective I believe). We see Hillary Clinton come out with another smear and insinuation and he answers it but doesn't smear her back. Those of us who can see right through what she is trying to do are angry because we know there are a lot of people who will take it a face value. Do you know how many kids tell my kids at school that their parents are not voting for Obama because he is unpatriotic, doesn't put his hand on his heart when...? Just about all of them (we live in a rural town). Hillary Clinton, and her campaign, have thrown so much of this at the media because they don't care if they are telling a lie because it works (to a point). But then she risked pissing off those of us seek out many resources for news (or those of us who can see right through it all immediately). I get very angry too but I settle down when I see that it isn't affecting the polls. I totally understand what the original writer states but you have to be able to rise above it all(including the over excited news reports) and just keep an eye on both candidates and really listen to what their issue's are and how they handle situations under pressure. By not voting for a democrat you are giving a vote to the repugs so who ever wins the primary we have to stand behind that candidate. Otherwise you all falling for another repug tactic. The electronic voting machines will be watched closely so they have to do it another way- why not disenchant the democratic voters (they are loving all this infighting and I'm sure feeding into it).

[sbhdawn]

542. Clintons counting on "blind" supporters, and their "low" intelligence

I agree with you, and I do think that this is the core of their "slash and burn" campaign. They are counting on their supporters to be easily fooled, and in fact they are busy trying to "fool" them; actually I guess you could say, making fools out of them.
They are counting on these type of supporters to support them, and they have succeeded somewhat. Thank God, we aren't all so easily tricked!
Hey, talk about party loyalty, they are hoping for McCain to win, so Hillary can run again in 4 years!! It is the, "if I can't win, then at least let's get McCain in there, so I can run again in 4 yrs. from now." They don't care what McCain will do to us all; just anything to get that power back at any cost!!!!

[eagertolearn]

555. Welcome to DU...you're newer than me!

I've heard that part about HC wanting McCain to win so she could follow but I don't believe that because if that happened people would blame her and be very pissed.

[RaleighNCDUer]

696. People HERE would blame her, and be pissed, but

that won't be MOST people. With the help of her buddies Scaife and Murdoch she would put out the meme that it was Obama's fault, and the party MUST turn to her to win in 12. And when 80% of the media is pushing that meme, 80% of the public will believe it - just as they believe that Saddam funded Al Queda, that WMDs were found, and that Bush legitimately won the last two elections.

[lucky leftie]

251. Many democrats feel that way.

The venom directed at Hillary and her supporters on progressive blogs is off the charts. I've heard her voters described as "uneducated," "low-brow," "racists," and worse. Well, see for yourself-read the first 10 or 15 comments on this thread.

Neither of these candidates is my first choice but I like and respect both of them. Neither is perfect and they have different strengths and weaknesses but progrssive blogs are like echo chambers. The Hillary supporters are few and everyone remaining is in complete agreement-Obama is above reproach, Hillary is evil incarnate and her supporters are either stupid or corrupt.

I believe Obama will win the primary but he will not beat McCain without some of Hillary's supporters. I hope Obama lives up to his billing as a uniter, and reaches out to those voters. He will unfortunately have to undo some of the damage done by his supporters.

[PhilipDC]

315. +1

This is how I feel also. Originally an Edwards supporter, once he dropped out, I voted for Obama in the VA primary because in the end I thought he was more electable. And I don't approve of some of the Clintons' campaign tactics. But the venom on this site and others toward the Clintons is way over the top. I can attribute some of it to all the new people that Barack has brought into the election process this year. But some of you (on both sides really) need to take a step back and remember that the ultimate goal is to elect one of these two in November rather than continue the Bush administration by allowing McCain to win!

[beezlebum]

376. i agree, but i chalk most of the bs here to hyperbole, exaggeration and, well, bs'ing-

that anyone outside of the candidate him- or herself and his or her chosen staffers and associates, that the attitudes of a few pathetic ppl on an effing discussion forum, a large portion of whom are seriously lacking in engaging conversational skillz anyway and who tend to resort to ad hominem etc., could have any influence on your vote is SAD and WEAK. (disclaimer- i am not dissing ♥ du ♥ nor its plethora {channeling el guapo there} of respectable members, but an infiltrating force of weak arguers and lazy intellects and the like brought about here recently)

a handful (and i'm being nice) of hillary clinton's supporters here have been particularly nasty from time to time, as well as obama's and even edwards and kucinich supporters- it is perhaps a reflection of the sad state of american education and intellect-rejecting gossip-teevee-obsessed culture, but the candidates themselves? puh-leeze!

i don't have ALL of them on ignore, just the nasty little boogers, there are actually quite a few clinton supporters for whom i personally have a great deal of respect- but THEY have nothing to do with my decision to or to not support her or barack. it's all hillary, and bill, and mark penn, and obama, and kucinich and edwards and blah and blah and blah.

no offense to anyone, but, short of bringing information i hadn't seen or heard about a candidate, not one person here- ESPECIALLY said person's attitude or behavior- on this forum could EVER weigh on my decision. i realize the need for unity and warm fuzzies to a certain degree, but its a fucking discush forum. mebbe that's just me. :shrug:

[chixydix]

328. It's just tragic that out of millions of great Democrats we're stuck with 2 mediocre candidates

I don't see how either of them wins the general election.

[rodbailey]

477. That's why those of us at the Gore Forum

on DU are considering a lobbying effort of the super delegates to try to get them to consider Gore as a unifying/peace candidate if this "bloody" battle between Clinton and Obama continues. Drop in over there and see what we're up to. Our main focus - if neither Hillary or Barack have a clear path to the nomination at the convention, we will be writing to super delegates to remind them they have a winner in Gore who they should consider, with Obama (perhaps) as his running mate. Now, don't go crazy and say we're trying to "steal" the nomination from either of the candidates; we will take action only if it looks like the convention is going to be deadlocked and go to a second, third, fourth, etc. ballot. The Dem. party needs someone they can unify behind and also someone who would be a sure winner in Nov.

[ericblair]

608. Absolutely agree

Rather than build a progressive future we get to watch in horror while these two clowns wrestle for the steering wheel of the bus-inevitably driving it right over a cliff. I've waited 35 years for this election and it's being thrown away by the mediocrities the media has foisted on us.

[Mimosa]

691. Puh-Leeze, neither Obama nor Hillary are "mediocrities'

This poster gets a welcome for calling two very solid Demo contenders "mediocrities"?

I'm a relative newbie, never got much of a welcome and I never would call Hillary -whom I don't like- a mediocrity. And Obama is outstanding as well as inspiring.

[lumberjack_jeff]

394. Welcome to DU. I absolutely agree. n/t

[moodforaday]

467. Maybe the venom comes after

all the rational arguments have been raised and elicited no cogent response from the supporters of the other candidate. This cuts both ways on DU. Please folks, posting a candidate's voting record is not spewing venom. Posting about a candidate's corporate funding sources isn't spewing venom, either. Neither is posting a picture of a candidate hobnobbing with far-right crazies. These are real issues, real problems people legitimately have with both candidates, but the response to these issues being raised is practically the same as to sheer name calling.

Instead of vainly complaining about mud being thrown at your pick (and such complaints are vain, since they will achieve nothing), please review some fair-minded or not-so-fair-minded but still factual criticism of your candidate and respond to them.

I am reminded several (non-political) boards and newsgroups I've been reading over the years. A time always comes when the in-fighting swells up and inevitably this is followed by posts such as "Nobody posts anything of value here anymore". Well, don't complain - post something of value yourself.

ed: typo

[PoliticalAmazon]

334. Then the poster should blame HRC, the source of the anger against the Clintons...

...HRC has attacked the Obama supporters on a regular basis. She has used the vile race-baiting, implying we are delusional and are swayed by emotion, not our own research, in supporting Obama.

The worst, however, is her very BushJr-like "the Obama supporters want me out of the race because they don't want Americans to vote."

Doesn't it sound like BushJr's attacking Americans against the war by saying they are "freedom-haters"?

Hillary Clinton has used her position of considerable power to attack Democratic Party voters.

And you expect us to just bend over and take it?

So if anyone is upset about the reaction of OBama supporters to the attacks on them by the powerful Clintons, they should turn their anger towards the Clinton. Not all Democratic voters are doormats, and some of us will not lay down and meekly let the Clintons wipe their feet all over us.

[jettison]

450. again?

Another Hillary supporter, another bitterly angry post with a random expletive thrown in for good measure. The bitterness level is at such an all-time high, and some Hillary fans are so drunk on so much bitterness, that if Rush Limbaugh was running for president on the Republican side, they'd probably vote for him just to spite Obama.

This is similar to all those folks who hate either the Yankees, the Bulls, the Celtics, or any other absurdly successful machine of some kind. Politics is like sports sometimes. If the adoration is too much, people grow jealous, hateful, and spiteful. This post is a perfect example.

Every time someone takes the low ground with some whining post riddled with expletives, you're just making yourself look sad and weak. While the rest of the country rejoices, you choose to weep. It makes no sense.

[mkultra]

475. its clear why your last name is cryer

[Name removed]

78. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[BornBlue]

361. What kind of example are you setting?

I have tried playing nice, I got ignored so I stopped coming. I wanted to have intelligent political discussions but all I found was petty ranting. That is what gets attention. Every post I made seemed to get overshadowed by vulgar nastiness. Unlike the original poster I am relatively new and young, but I have been following some sort of politics since I was very young. My mother was a local trustee when I was about 4 and I used to "campaign" for her.
Here you are saying you have to essentially kill 'em with kindness, yet you follow it up with your too f-ing stupid. Both sides are guilty. It is not Obama supporters or Hillary supporters that have driven a stake into the party, it is the party. We have been so jaded by the last too elections, that we can't see what we have done. It is all about sides, and not about what is good for the country. Can you please tell me why when Hillary smears Obama it is vetting, but if someone says something negative about Hillary it is an unfair outrage? In my humble opinion that shows an extreme lack of confidence in your candidate on either side. I will honestly say when I first heard the Rev. Wright rumblings my heart sank, but I feel better about it now that Barack has spoken out.
We all know about Clinton history. Judge it how you will, but she was a part of it. The secrets, the lies, the scandal, she was there. That is why I personally don't trust her. I know that she is a brilliant woman, who would give a lot to this country, I am just tired of the old. I am ready for new. I do not have grandiose ideas that Obama will save the country, my hope is that the masses wake up and start electing the type of candidates that genuinely care about the nation. What we need in government are leaders that can relate to the people, not leaders who have been bread to think they are better than the people.

[pnwmom]

521. Welcome to DU, BornBlue!

I hope that you will continue to have patience with your party and that you, as I, will proudly support whoever is the nominee in the fall -- knowing that either candidate is heads and shoulders above McCain.

One thing to keep in mind about Democrats -- the party encourages independent thinking, not mass hypnosis. And a lot of independent thinkers are inevitably going to disagree. As the expression goes, trying to get us to go anywhere together is like herding cats.

But I'd rather be a cat or a feisty dog than one of the Rethug robots.

[Skittles]

177. NOT *NEARLY* AS MUCH

NOT BY A LONG SHOT

[Mezzo]

191. No one said that but you...typical strawman. nt

[polmaven]

235. Excuse me, but....

When you ask if the poster has:"never noticed any of the venom directed at Obama on DU? Never?"

The third sentence - let me repeat The THIRD SENTENCE reads:

Please don't try to use the argument "but the Clinton people have trashed Obama". They are just a drop in the bucket compared to these attacks

The OP has quite obviously "noticed" some posts, as have most of us. The OP is correct, however, that they are a drop in the bucket compared to the hate and vitriol directed toward Senator Clinton.

You try to claim a couple of posts down that you read the post, so you did what? You read everything but the THIRD SENTENCE? :shrug:

[lefty2000]

473. There Can't Be Much

In another thread, I read that 90% of the people here are for Obama.

[Gman]

487. Is that supposed to be an excuse?

Obamabots use that excuse ad nauseum. People are sick of it.

[pnwmom]

514. The poster said correctly there was much more directed at Hillary.

As someone who will proudly support either candidate, I agree with the poster on that. I strongly disagree with his or her decision to respond in a way that could hurt the whole country.

Yesterday I alerted on two more people who called Clinton hateful names, names as hateful as anything the worst freeper could call Obama. The sub-thread was deleted. This is more common than many people realize.

[Laurab]

565. THIS OP got 100 recommendations?

This is not the DU I used to know.

Hillary's ACTIONS did the same thing to me - of course I would never base a vote on a supporter's actions, but damn, Hillary supporters have done the Repukes own work for them, right along with their candidate.

This OP is a joke.

[goldcanyonaz]

623. 117.

[GarbagemanLB]

2. If you base your decision on who should be president based upon some posters in an internet forum...

:rofl:

[joshcryer]

11. No, the are discussing the progressive blogosphere/discussion realm in general.

If you had read their post you'd know that.

[bridgit]

194. Well that's a bit disingenuous, if some BO supporter has something+++ from kos...

they come paper the cyber-walls here at DU with it :spray:

[musicblind]

679. Her post seemed to have a much broader scope than the internet. She made many references to things

that didn't have to do with DU. I don't think she's making it JUST on this messageboard. But I do think it is not an okay idea to refuse to vote for the GE candidate come Nov. It would be shooting herself in the foot if she really believes the ideas of the Dem party... which I believe she does.

[Drunken Irishman]

3. Okay.

[meow mix]

4. so all the hate and racebaiting from the other side is just fine huh. this post is bs

yawn
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[niceypoo]

262. Actually this post is dead on ...

80% of the venom on this board comes from Obamas side. There is no excuse for it, it is a continuation of what the republicans did throughout the 90s and it is keeping Hillary in the race.

[toys4kitty]

418. May be it's because

there are 80% more people that support Obama than Clinton....
could be why he has more states won, more popular vote and more delegates....


just something to think about.... :think:

[jettison]

464. reason

Isn't that really because "80%" of this board is now pro-Obama? Of course you'll here more anti-Hillary stuff then you will anti-Obama takes.

That said, any venom put out is unnecessary and brings us all down. If Obama loses, I'm voting for Hillary. If any Obama supporters have a different take then that, then I'd have to hear a pretty lengthy, exceptional argument that contrasts that take not to feel pretty disappointed.

The two sides have such similar philosophies for our country. To say you'd vote for one, but not for the other reeks of bitterness. Don't form your opinion based on the nefarious, juvenille undercurrents of some internet messageboards and blogs. If you are truly swayed that easily then I have to question how important your vote is to begin with.

[Cha]

5. Oh BooHoo...what we Obama supporters

have done is given money, written letters, made phone calls, caucused, voted, and supported him on DU.

[Labors of Hercules]

286. AMEN to THAT!

:yourock:

[Colobo]

6. Whatever.

[jgraz]

12. Seconded

:eyes:

[Sherman A1]

287. May I,

Second your Second?:toast:

[Mz Pip]

7. Get a grip

:nopity:

[anonymous171]

8. Yeah, because the Clintons have never attacked Obama!

He's such a meany!

[JayFredMuggs]

9. What have we done? Expose an incompetant LIAR?

Oh dear!

How unAmerican........Democrats have been exposing the biggst liar for years.


So Hillary LIES, and you think she could be a winner?

Let's get this straight......Hillary will go down as a liar, just like GWB........move on, let's get this young man elected without more lectures from you "holier than thou" folks

[SeaLyons]

291. excuse me, but

there are a lot of folks who see Obama as a "LIAR" in his denial of knowledge of Wright's incendiary sermons. You're in a glass house throwing stones.

[digidigido]

426. WRONG

Obama did not lie about Wright. What Obama did was take an attack on his pastor
and turn it into the most real speech about race and race relations in the history
of this country. Being black in America is different then being white. That, is the
truth. It should not be if we are a nation of "liberty and justice for all", but it is.

[jonestonesusa]

442. So you're perfectly able to vote against Obama

if you do not respect his choice of minister, and it's your right to label him in any way you see fit. But guess what - he gets to choose his own minister, and he stood up for his right to associate with whom he chooses even if much of white America doesn't like it. After all, he repudiated the remarks you speak of. His speech was effective for many listeners on both sides of the aisle, but it's too challenging for much of his audience to think in complex ways about race - all the opposition has to do is play a sound bite of a very few remarks by his minister for a news cycle and it's instant outrage for a lot of the white audience, no matter how little most of us even know about Wright. I think it's a shame that any Democrats are still beating this dead horse, given that there is so little thoughtful discourse about racial issues in most Democratic campaigns, and we're losing an opportunity to have a thoughtful discussion of this issue.

What really matters is how we take our country forward based on our common ground - but for many of us, we'd rather stay divided based on this non-issue, just as we've been racially divided by the powerful since 1600s. I guess it will go on.

[jettison]

466. glass houses

Obama folks may be in a glass house, throwing stones, but Hillary's camp have already broken all the glass, and they've been dragging themselves down the hallway on bloody, bandaged appendages. I truly believe that "all politicians lie", but some politicians are just REALLY good at being politicians. Hillary seems to be one of them. She's "a fighter" and "loves the process", and "loves politics". It's like a big game for her. With Obama, you sense that he'd rather forgo the game playing and just help the country. Hence, why he'll likely be our next President.

[ericgtr]

10. Wow.. that's a lot of hate man but it's your right to share it

but blaming Obama supporters for the fall of Hillary Clinton? Better have a look at the outside world then because there are a lot more people than just those of us on the internet that support him. Hillary has made her own bed, like it or not.

[eagertolearn]

313. Right On! I decided on Obama at first because of her negative campaigning

and then because of who he is and what he stands for!

[marmar]

13. Clueless would be too kind a description for this post.....

n/t

[LittleClarkie]

14. Both sides

It's happening on both sides.

Welcome to Thunderdome.

I'll vote for Hillary, but likely won't campaign for her if she wins the nomination. And you will have some of the Hillary supporters to thank, at least in part, for that. They haven't helped me warm up to her, let's put it that way.

But I won't let them dictate who I might vote for. I'll vote for the Dem.

Why would you let your opinion of someone's supporters effect who you would vote for? Obama supporters aren't Obama himself, just as Hillary supporters are not Hillary.

[PoliticalAmazon]

339. Big difference: Obama has NEVER attacked Clinton supporters...

Obama has never attacked Clinton supporters. The Clintons have repeatedly attacked Obama supporters, and lied about the Obama supporters in the process.

Hillary Clinton has incited hatred in her supporters by continually whining that she's getting picked on when, in reality, SHE is the one doing the attacking.

So there is a big difference in the source of the animosity in each set of voters: The Clintons have clearly earned the negative feelings of the Obama supporters, and the Clintons have clearly incited the hatred against Obama and his supporters.

[FreeStateofWinston]

447. Great point !!!

:thumbsup:

[GoneOffShore]

516. Amen - You've been here a long time and have always been reasonable

I'll be voting for the Dem right along with you - and if by the furthest stretch she gets it, I'll even vote for Clinton.

I won't like it, but I'll do it. Because I think that even though she's a corporatist and a DLCer she'll be marginally better than McCain. Unfortunately she won't beat McCain.

[lordsummerisle]

15. Umm Wait a Minute...

APRIL FOOLS!!!

[Zhade]

17. Uh, yeah, clinton's a proven liar (Tuzla, NAFTA, 9/11 Chelsea, etc).

Not really in a position to criticize when you support a liar, now, are you?

[Spiffarino]

359. All but one

The "Chelsea at the WTC" thing that the Reichwing is peddling misquotes HRC. Essentially, she said Chelsea went jogging every morning and her route took her around the WTC, which she would have done that day had the attacks not occurred. The way the Reich tells it, HRC puts Chelsea there when the attacks happened. Bloviation and fabrication.

OTOH, the Tuzla thing is a campaign goldmine for McCain. Should HRC get the nomination, look for that quote to run every ten minutes in McCain ads during your local news.

[zulchzulu]

18. It's what the Clintons have done that made many of us say we've had enough

Read this:

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/zulchzulu/176

Come back to me with ANYTHING that you can debunk on what is there. ANYTHING...

If you don't know why the Clintons have become a cancer on the Democratic Party, it's about time you find out. They are to be removed from the party for all I care. I am done defending them.

[DerekJ]

19. Riggghhhhtttt

[TwilightGardener]

20. Filed under "Whiny-Ass Opinions I Don't Care About".

It's a thick file.

[joshcryer]

23. Did you people even read the post?

The person wasn't being hateful. Jesus. You people are disgusting.

[amelia]

70. I appreciate that you understand what I'm saying

[JVS]

94. LOL! Nice

[riskpeace]

199. Your post does nothing

but insult and attack.

[leftynyc]

237. That thick file is filled with VOTERS

Do you care about that?

[Bake]

470. Are you also going to file it under "Another VOTE I don't care about?"

Because that's what it really is. So you Obama supporters better hope there are enough of you to win on your own. I have said previously that I would vote for Obama is he is the eventual nominee, but honest to God, you people make it so hard!!

Are you all a bunch of fools? You claim to want "unity" in the party, but you just keep rubbing the other side's noses in the shit! I'll be damned if I'll vote for anyone whose supporters call me idiotic names, tell me to "move on" and "get over it" (particularly when they call my candidate a "looser" -- and they can't even spell it correctly!). When someone, like the OP, calmly and rationally states his/her position, you jump on him/her again with both feet. Many of you MUST be new to the political process, or you'd know better than to cut off your nose to spite your face! Either that, or you're immature teenagers posting on Mommy and Daddy's computer.

Bake

[democrattotheend]

21. Nobody in the Obama camp ever called Bill Clinton racist

And it was the media that did most of the talking about race, because it makes for a good story. And the charge was never that Bill Clinton was a racist. Nobody thinks that, but some people think he was willing to use subtle racial undertones in order to try to marginalize Obama. I am not sure if I think that's what he was doing or not...it was subtle so it's hard to say. Some people think that's a legitimate political tactic...I have an African American coworker who thinks race-baiting is a legitimate political tactic. I don't happen to agree.

[joshcryer]

27. No, they did even worse, they let it play out.

They did not denounce the media for their garbage. Hey I think Hillary should've denounced the media for the charge against Wright, but this is politics.

The fact remains that the Clintons were not seen so evilly until the race baiting shit began.

[Kool Kitty]

72. This shit is being done on both sides.

[joshcryer]

154. Of course it is.

But it's not so prelevant online except from Obama supporters.

[Teaser]

255. you got stats?

Let's see 'em.

[musicblind]

680. IDK, I did a little research on here a while back

counting the Anti Obama threads and the Anti Clinton threads. This site IS pretty one sided right now. But the reason for that is because the majority of the voters on this site are supporting the same candidate.

[Kool Kitty]

568. Sure it is.

[beezlebum]

279. no, the clinton's have never, ever engaged in race-baiting.

insinuating obama was muslim was not racist on several levels either. i'll "take her word for it!"

nor was it race-baiting/racist when bill said that obama's SC win was reminiscent of jesse jackson's win (he won it cuz he's black, like jesse), nor the ickes comparison (obama and jesse have SO much in common, you know, bein black an all), nope.

claiming that obama "wouldn't be where he was" if he weren't black? not race-baiting, especially since ferraro originally said it about jesse jackson anyway.

nor the MLK remarks, the plantation crap, nor the handful of policies i won't bring up because they were bill's, and besides, we're talking verbal here...

no, clintons have never played dirty, they're just getting even via traditional political maneuvering...for obama's success. how dare he win over all those voters! they were rightfully hers! that is HER throne dammit! how dare he come in and not even play the victim card and still win ppl over anyway?!

IT'S ONLY A FLESH WOUND!!!

seriously, i've seen zero negativity from obama with regards to clinton. she has brought up race far more than obama, and perhaps at worst i've seen refutation (oh noes!!1!) from obama, albeit eloquent, but what i've seen from clinton is unbearably childish ("the sky will open up..." :puke: ), http://digg.com/2008_us_elections/Clinton_to_Obama_Shame_on_you">authoritarian behavior. disappointing.

clintons- traditional politicas as usual; obama, change....HMmmm...

[NashVegas]

236. No, They Wrote The Memo And Let the Fanboys and Fangirls Do It For Them

Sen. Barack Obama's presidential campaign has prepared a detailed memo listing various instances in which it perceived Sen. Hillary Clinton's campaign to have deliberately played the race card in the Democratic primary.

The memo, which was obtained by the Huffington Post and has been made public elsewhere, is believed to have been given to an activist and contains mostly excerpts from different media reports. It lists the contact info and name of Obama's South Carolina press secretary, Amaya Smith, and is broken down into five incidents in which either Clinton, her husband Bill, or campaign surrogates made comments that could be interpreted as racially insensitive.

The document provides an indication that, in private, the Obama campaign is seeking to capitalize on the view - and push the narrative - that the Clintons are using race-related issues for political leverage. In public, the Obama campaign has denied that they are trying to propagate such a perception, noting that the document never was sent to the press.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/01/12/obama-camps-memo-on-clin_n_81205.html

[MethuenProgressive]

354. So, you don't consider DU's BO followers part of "Obama's Camp"

Because they've called Bill a racist every day since BO fired up his Swiftboat.

[democrattotheend]

393. No, of course not

None of us represent Obama. He and his staff have no control over what we say. When I say "Obama's camp", I mean the candidate and the people who work for his campaign and are authorized to speak for him. Surrogates are a little hard to classify, because they do interviews or campaign for candidates but the campaign does not have control over them, and they do not play official roles.

[tabatha]

22. So Obama said that Hillary should stay in the race as long

as she wants. Some of his supporters have said otherwise.

So you choose to listen to his supporters rather than Obama?

Good grief!

Your long diatribe is very short on logic.

You started with a premise and wrote a bunch of garbage to support it.

[joshcryer]

32. They're talking about the vitirol of progressive internet sites against Hillary.

it's basically hit all the main ones now. Who can take it? Some people can't.

Fortunately I can because I'm not invested in Hillary. I just have to correct the lies and bullshit spread by Obama supporters.

[tabatha]

104. But Clinton herself lies.

She said that Obama does not want the people in NC to vote.

She lied about Bosnia.

She praises McCain and bashes Obama.

etc, etc

Possibly the Obama supporters are objecting to this crap.

And if you think any of the first three statements I stated above is BS, then you have a problem - of not seeing the truth.

[joshcryer]

136. Politicians lie.

People lie all the time about absurd shit. Obama lied about not knowing about Wright's comments, even about being there. He lied about how long he knew Rezko. Lying is part of the political process.

But because Hillary supporters are in the minority on the internet her 'lies' are seen more promoninently and Obama's are pushed under the rug.

[beachhawk]

383. Where the difference in "Lies"

I agree every politician lies.

There is a big difference in the Hillary's lies and Obama's. Did he hear of Wright's Comments? I am certain. Did he hear Wright say them in the Church? No. Obama has plausible deniability.

Clinton out and out lies. Here is a excerpt from and article I just read.

Hillary simply cannot tell the truth. Here’s her scorecard:

Admitted Lies

• Chelsea was jogging around the Trade Center on Sept. 11, 2001. (She was in bed watching it on TV.)
• Hillary was named after Sir Edmund Hillary. (She admitted she was wrong. He climbed Mt. Everest five years after her birth.)
• She was under sniper fire in Bosnia. (A girl presented her with flowers at the foot of the ramp.)
• She learned in The Wall Street Journal how to make a killing in the futures market. (It didn’t cover the market back then.)


Whoppers She Won’t Confess To

• She didn’t know about the FALN pardons.
• She didn’t know that her brothers were being paid to get pardons that Clinton granted.
• Taking the White House gifts was a clerical error.
• She didn’t know that her staff would fire the travel office staff after she told them to do so.
• She didn’t know that the Peter Paul fundraiser in Hollywood in 2000 cost $700,000 more than she reported it had.
• She opposed NAFTA at the time.
• She was instrumental in the Irish peace process.
• She urged Bill to intervene in Rwanda.
• She played a role in the ’90s economic recovery.
• The billing records showed up on their own.
• She thought Bill was innocent when the Monica scandal broke.
• She was always a Yankees fan.
• She had nothing to do with the New Square Hasidic pardons (after they voted for her 1,400-12 and she attended a meeting at the White House about the pardons).
• She negotiated for the release of refugees in Macedonia (who were released the day before she got there).

http://thehill.com/dick-morris/hillarys-list-of-lies-2008-03-25.html">Dick Morris on Hillary's lies

[tabatha]

465. No.

He did not lie about knowing about Wright's specific comments - he was not there for the sermon played over and over again.
He said he was aware of contentious comments but not the inflammatory comments - no lies there.

He did not lie about how long he knew Rezko - he has always said they were friends.
If you are talking about his response to Hillary's question - his answer was correct.

She asked about LEGAL REPRESENTATION - check the video - his answer was correct. It was NOT about length of knowing.
She asked about LEGAL REPRESENTATION - check the video - his answer was correct. It was NOT about length of knowing.
She asked about LEGAL REPRESENTATION - check the video - his answer was correct. It was NOT about length of knowing.

Hillary's lies are frequent, outright and also about a fellow candidate.

When has Obama lied about Hillary?

[leftynyc]

243. I think the online stuff is misleading the

Sen Obama supporters into thinking he's more popular than he actually is. Yes, online (esp on this site), support for Sen Obama runs about 10-1. But look at the real world - this primary is still very close. Sen Obama doesn't couldn't get the nomination without the same super delegates that that Sen Clinton needs. Why is that? These same people that are screaming for her to get out of the race worship Ted Kennedy who stayed in his primary race right up the convention while being behind by 800 delegates - and he was running against a sitting democratic president.

[TomBall Democrat]

263. Yah, those 4800 Obama delegates at the convention

Saturday were virtual images planted by the media.

Get over it, she's toast.

Whining is not the same as winning.


Frankly, she can stay in till Denver, IMO.

I want her devastated and forever unable to run again. She is an embarassment to women.

She's harmed our chances in future races with her falsehoods and shrill shreaking tone. And her supporters are delusional.

[leftynyc]

280. Keep it up sweetheart

You'll be bringing voters to your side in no time at all. And why don't you try actually being responsive to my post rather than blather on with crap. Or do you think the people at Sen Clinton's rallies are holograms who don't vote? What part of you're going to need those votes don't you understand?

[TomBall Democrat]

379. Zealots rarely change their minds

because they're not using them in the first place.

But keep up that anger - hope it works out for you.

:hi:

[leftynyc]

405. What anger?

Now I have both Sen Clinton and Sen Obama supporters accusing me of hatred. Pretty funny actually.

[Bake]

476. Take a good long look in the mirror ...

Zealots, indeed.

Bake

[lumberjack_jeff]

402. They say that Obama supporters are more likely to be college educated.

Perhaps they missed that part of psychology 101.

No one wants to join a club in which the supporters are openly hostile to you.

And yes, it's a club... "a movement". Chosen by "God, destiny and providence".

Obama's supporters are the single biggest barrier to his success.

[jettison]

472. makes no sense

This take makes no sense. If people are choosing their candidates based on the "nasty attitude" of some people on an internet message board or blog, then how important can their vote actually be? People should choose their candidate based on the, erah, candidate? Just a thought. We're not choosing our favorite rock band here. We're choosing someone to lead our country. But your trivialities aside and vote for who you think best serves us as a nation.

If Obama should lose, I'll be voting for Hillary. Period. Did she lie? It barely matters to me. They all seem to lie. She's still twice the candidate that McCain is, and her politics most closely match my own. It's an easy choice. Even if every Hillary supporter sent me daily hate mail, it's not going to stop me from voting for her.

[goldcanyonaz]

24. I know how you feel.

:grouphug:

[amelia]

64. Thanks I think we are in the minority here

[dchill]

626. " the minority here" - and therein lies the disparity...

It appears that the anti-Obama rhetoric in the GD:P section is disproportionately high considering the 80%+ pro-Obama makeup of DU membership. Obama-flame threads often make up more than half of the threads that actually take a side. I wonder if that tells you, or any HillaryIs44-ians anything at all.

Go ahead, take a poll. Don't worry - you don't have to get back to me.

[RTBerry]

563. I also know exactly how you feel.

n/t

[k8conant]

25. I probably shouldn't bother with this...but HARDLY!

This is one of the most " holier than thou, aren't I so reasonable" OPs that I've seen in quite a while. It is so lopsided to blame Obama supporters for what Hillary Clinton and her supporters have been doing.

[Johnny__Motown]

26. You blame Obama's supporters. we blame Hillary and Bill.

"endorsing" McCain

The Jesse Jackson comment

Endless lies and distortions

We just can't take it. sorry

[lucky leftie]

437. Hold them to the same standard.

Were you offended when Obama called the GOP "the party of ideas?" When he said he'd been inspired by Reagan, and the "optimism" and "accountability" Reagan brought to America? Funny, I don't remember the Reagan administration that way. How about when he said the following:“I don’t want to go into the next election starting off with half the country already not wanting to vote for Democrats — we’ve done that in 2004, 2000,” I thought this was especially insulting to Gore, who won the 2000 election. It played into republican framing.

I am not saying that you shouldn't support Obama or that he is a bad candidate, I am saying we should be even-handed in judging them. They have both made mistakes but it seems that every time she opens her mouth, people try to find some pretext for being outraged. She is not the evil person that some Obama supporters describe.

It is pretty certain that Obama will win this thing. Well, like it or not, Hillary's voters will hold all the cards after he becomes the nominee. Obama needs to find a way to reach them, which he has not yet succeeded in doing.

[americanstranger]

28. Thx fr yr cncrn. n/t

- as

[mtnsnake]

30. Very well said!

and off to the Greatest Page you will go. In fact, I nominate your post for best post of the week just from the wonderful way you expressed your heartfelt sentiment, and accurately so. :thumbsup:

[amelia]

76. Thank you very much. I think you know how I feel and I had

to say it. I don't know if it will help or not, but at least it's out there and on the table.

[laugle]

115. You've got

guts girl.........hope you post more often...........kudos to you!

[laugle]

114. I'll second that!

There's a funny irony in that the responses to the OP have proved her right............

[Hoof Hearted]

31. Thanks for posting this. Everything you said was dead on.

[The Doctor.]

33. How funny that people never notice the REASONS for the criticism.

This post is a great example.

[Maddy McCall]

34. k/r

Thanks, amelia, for this post.

[IndependentDem]

35. please...

Please do not insinuate that ALL Obama supporters are hostile and disruptive. There are plenty of those on both sides of the race.

As for the people that will vote for McCain or not vote or write in... Can you explain to me how that will benefit our country?

[amelia]

79. You're right and I apologize for that. I should have said some

Obama supporters, because I know that all aren't insulting and are able to discuss this primary without all of the rancor.

[IndependentDem]

88. Thanks!! and not to be a pest...

but can you explain the other part to me? My view is that any lost dem vote is a vote for McCain. IMO, We are on the brink of a major downfall in our society. I do not think that this is a good time to chose "my opinion" over what i feel is better for the country.

[amelia]

103. No it doesn't benefit the country and I do know that.

I know that a Democrat is what is needed and if I stop reading all the anti clinton stuff and listening to the pundits, I will probably vote for Obama, if he's the winner. I don't mind heated discussions about the candidate of our choice, but when it gets to personal insults and hatefulness that is what causes the resentment that is then transferred to the candidate. I think that is just human nature, which is sometimes difficult to overcome.

[IndependentDem]

109. i agree 100%

that is why i have been trying to get everyone to settle down. i just hope that we have enough time for everyone to get past the resentment because it is starting to grow on both sides.

Thanks for the open-minded & courteous discussion. :toast:

[amelia]

121. You're welcome and thank you too

[GoneOffShore]

525. Thank you - because you were just about to be dropped down the memory hole

with all the other people who have said that they won't vote for A if B is nominated.

I'm an Obama supporter and basically think that he's what we need right now. We don't need the Republican Lite (and increasingly not so lite) politics of Clinton, but I'll vote for her. I don't like her - in fact have never liked her and have found that she and the former Pres have moved further right as time has gone on. And I haven't wanted the whiff of Dynasty that they bring to the table.

[Skidmore]

214. Amelia, do you ever stop to look at the rancor and insults from your side as well?

I don't like the vitriol but I can tell you that there are enough Clinton supporters dealing in insults and negativity to put this thread in the category of "no room to talk". I will stand up and support Obama. I have a choice and choose not to support Clinton. Now the Clinton supporters need to get used to the idea that some of us do not find another round of the Clinton brand desirable and consider them to be divisive.

[scheming daemons]

36. Obama is a good guy with some bad supporters... Hillary is a bad person with some bad supporters....

Simple enough for me.

[GoneOffShore]

526. Yeah me too - but

If she "gets*" the nomination, I'll hold my nose and vote for her.








*(Does some dirty back room deal at the convention).

[jbm]

37. excellent post

The Obama supporters aren't going to understand what you've said until a few months after the election when they're trying to figure out why their messiah candidate didn't even carry one state, but at least you tried.

[k8conant]

89. not even "one state"? That's BS and you know it...

April Fool's Day was yesterday...

[Tyler Durden]

274. Talking about the GE, not this farce of a primary.

McGovern took one, and this guy is no George McGovern.

[k8conant]

692. Obama'll do better in the GE than Hillary would dream of!

And I do realize you're just shilling me.

[murielm99]

128. I think he will carry more than one state.

But I fear he won't win.

This is going on outside the blogosphere, and has been for a long time. I have met many mean-spirited and just plain nasty Obama supporters in real life, too. I live in Illinois, Obama central.

BTW, k&r.

[Catherina]

38. You never read any lies about Obama here? I find that hard to believe

very, VERY hard.

I'll just take it Olberman is DEAD to you now and Fox News provides the fairest balance.

[bhikkhu]

39. Swap every "Obama" with "Clinton" in your post

and it stands with the same sense. Simply put, Hillary is losing the primary. Losing is not pleasant for anybody, and legendarily unpleasant for the Clintons (though perhaps that is just drama). What you see - aside from some unnecessary bad language on both sides - is a Democratic primary. The winner must win first and then go on to the GE. To frame it as anything other doesn't serve the purpose.

The only alternative would to leave the voters out of the selection process.

[anigbrowl]

40. Sorry, i don't quite believe you

"Then MoveOn endorsed Obama and then asked me for more money to help promote his campaign. Any website that asks for donations, has no business endorsing any candidate in a primary, if they are promoting Democratic candidates against Republicans."

MoveOn polled its members to ask them if they wanted to endorse a candidate in the primaries, and more than 70% voted to do so. If you were a MoveOn donor as you suggest,t ehn you can't be unaware of this. Yet you chose to paint it as a unilateral decision by the operators of Moveon.org. Why?

[amelia]

59. when I got the email to vote, it was a done deal

and it shouldn't have been even up for a vote. It should remain neutral.

[murielm99]

116. I agree with you.

And how many MoveOn members voted? Not all of them, not by a long shot.

I quit MoveOn, and I quit because I did not not think it was right for them to support ANY candidate.

[krkaufman]

427. Agreed. MoveOn should have stayed neutral ...

... at least up until the point that any Democratic candidate began to actively promote a Republican candidate.

[melody]

41. Oh, please, Hillary can do what she has done and everyone is just supposed to shrug?

I admired the Clintons at one time. I prefer any liberal Democrat to them, but I admired them.
They are both too conservative for me and I didn't vote for Bill in the primaries for the same reason.

But because of their stature among some people, DU is supposed to slavishly sit back in awe and say
nothing? You can't be serious.

This isn't about Obama (he was my second to last choice). This is about Hillary Clinton and what she has done.
So now you're going to scold us all into silence?

[Tarheel_Dem]

75. that's exactly what they intend to do....

the campaign has organized boycotts & letter writing campaigns to designated media outlets. Thom Hartmann & Jeff Farias have both commented that the Hillary callers all seem to be reading from a script when scolding progressive talk show hosts about their perceived "Hillary bias". I've had it with them, I say let them go, let them vote for whomever the hell they want.

But if they can't see that they'll be punishing themselves & their children & grandchildren, it's their own affair. He's already promised "more wars", which will almost certainly require a draft; an economic crisis that won't be addressed; no healthcare; and a rightwing dominated Supreme Court for God knows how many generations. For anyone thinking about voting for John McCain, I suggest you catch the documentary "Punishment Park" on The Sundance Channel. If you want to put your kids and grandkids through that, sobeit. Since I have neither, I'll be fine.

Adios.....

[Lisa0825]

42. I felt exactly the same about Hillary before Obama as I do now.

Has it occurred to you that perhaps she deserves it, and it has nothing to do with Obama?

[GoneOffShore]

529. Oops I was just about to snark at you

And then realized what you meant about "deserving it".

My bad, for a lack of reading comprehension skills in the late afternoon.

You're right, she deserves it for all the deception, the DLC, Mark Penn and Tuzla.

[Celebration]

44. There is a REALLY good statistical explanation for this

By far the majority of people here are for Obama. According to polls done here it is at least 80% or even 90%.

That should mean, statistically, that about 85% or 9o% of the attacks on the other candidate will come from Obama supporters against Clinton.

The reason that it doesn't seem like there are as many attacks by Clinton supporters on Obama is that they are heavily outnumbered.

Thus, one would expect that there would be way more obnoxious Obama supporters here than obnoxious Hillary supporters.

As it turns out, it seems to me that there are only a few more obnoxious Obama supporters here than obnoxious Hillary supporters.

So, go figure.

The party is definitely split at this point.

[bhikkhu]

60. and in perspective, Hillary's supporter's may need to fight harder

if they are outnumbered. Which can lead to all sorts of perception issues; a limited number of very vocal advocates of the losing candidate, a need to resort to exaggeration and hyperbole to generate attention, the tendency of the losing side to resort to bitter personal attacks and flights into "personal realities"...it has not been an easy race for anyone. More to the issue, it has not been an easy eight years for anyone on this board.

I hope everyone can say after this election, no problems...you get a pass on all that, we got it done.

[GoneOffShore]

532. I know that I've got equal numbers of each flavor on Ignore.

The criteria?

Flamebait posts, No profile, Low Post count and being from Roswell, NM (too many trollers of both sides from there to be real - bizarre yes?).

[housewolf]

45. The really amazing thing is...

There are just as many people on the Obama side who feel the exact same way about Hillary.

It's not rational. It's visceral. I'm beginning to doubt that it's controlable. It's a constant play of "they did wrong first"; "no, they did wrong first". Each side has their perspective and can't seem to find any empathy/compassion/empathy for the other side's perspective.

What's really sad is that smart, informed and interested Dems like you allow the supporters of the other candidate close their mind to the other candidate.

As for voting for McCain or not voting for whomever the Dem candidate is... think about this: There are probably 3 Supreme Court retirements coming up for the next administration. If your vote contributes to a McCain election, would you be happy with him appointing 3 justices to the Supreme Court in the likes of Thomas, Scalia, Roberts & Alito? Just because some of your Dem brothers & sisters are behaving badly?

[amelia]

84. I know that and I'm trying to get myself in the right

mindset that any Democrat is the only answer, but it is difficult for all the reasons I stated above.

[The Wielding Truth]

85. Remember when most of us were thinking Kucinich and

we really weren't back-biting. We were reviewing the issues, back and forth. We were disappointed to lose one then another then Edwards. Then the remarks came about Barack being like Jesse Jackson, and we were off...

I think once it got personal, we got our feelings involved, and it became a gossip ridden family squabble.

Hillary has been throwing any thing out there that might stick. She knew that Barack was Christian. They went to Christian meetings together.

Anyway. She has kept these attacks going. Maybe it's Carville or other handlers,but it's her reputation and her credibility that take the hits .

I wished she would drop her handlers and back Obama. Together they would make McCain just fade away.
That seems improbable now so the very best we could hope for would be that Hillary would stick to her issues only or save her hits for McCain. If she were really winning that's what she would be doing.

[Bluenorthwest]

316. If it is truth we are trying to wield

For millions of Democrats, this race became extremely personal way before any comment from Bill Clinton. The open gay baiting by McClurkin, at official Obama events was personal, and targeted at Democratic voters, not the opposition. The single worst example of a Democrat using Rovian Republican minority baiting tactics to gain bigoted voters that I have ever seen.
McClurkin was the first mud slung, and it was flung not at Clinton or Edwards, but at me, a good Democrat, by McClurkin, a Bush promoting Republican operative. That is when it got personal, tawdry and Rovian. That was the first act of divisive politics in this cycle. Not just the events, but the manner in which Obama dealt with the backlash to the bashings, which was to defend the bigots as 'good, decent, and moral people' who will always have a place at his table. He has refused to so much as say that no American will be slandered by his surrogates during the remainder of the election or even in his potential administration.
So that was last Autum. It was the first stone cast, and he who cast it was not and is not without sin nor blame.

[gaspee]

407. Agree 100%

Obama lost me there and then. He used me and people like me to get the African American Evangelical vote - to show he was one of them. Well, screw that.

I can't ever think of a dem using other dems like that and it sickens me. It's personal for us LGBTQ folk and I don't think a lot of the Obama supporters are willing to understand where we are coming from.

[The Wielding Truth]

517. WWWHAT. We are in too much trouble to be counting on

Obama to be all things to all people. Yes, he is not for gay marriage and I don't like that ,BUT he will not oppose progress. He did not throw that stone you speak of and if you are so old testament than there were other reasons to cast stones.

Relax and remember those who were put in positions of death, no kidding,they were put there by our opponents and bickering and biting the hand that can possibly pull us in the healthiest direction is
shortsighted.

Just want you to realize that it's bigger than you and me and Obama and Clinton.It's our party against theirs. It's the last 7 years against the future.

I'm on your side. We have to work together to get where we want to be.

[emilyg]

46. Thank you.

My feelings exactly.

[flowomo]

47. The poster is a voter who might be won back... but instead

most of the replies say, "screw you." That can't be the most intelligent political strategy. Why not accept that she represents a segment of the population, and of loyal, long-time Democrats, and of long-time DUers (2001!) and figure out how to bring these votes home. I just don't get the strategy behind trashing the unconvinced -- especially when your side is clearly winning the primary and should be looking ahead to November.

[GarbagemanLB]

49. She is blind if she only sees hate against Clinton. Hillary supporters here also use shit like Newsm

ax and Drudge to support ridiculous attacks. She is one-sided, and it is a joke. If she wants to vote for McCain and have newly appointed supreme court justices overturn Roe V. Wade because she is too petty to vote for a candidate because some of his fringe supporters, then so be it.

[flowomo]

55. not the point.... you are WINNING...

you can afford to be generous. More importantly, you've won nothing if you win the primary and don't win the GE. You need this vote; it is a winnable vote. How is that not clear?

[GarbagemanLB]

63. It is hard to be 'generous' when the Hillary supporters here, instead of talking about the POSITIVES

of their candidate, constantly make attacks on Obama.

[flowomo]

71. of course, but it's the votes that count...

You might only get one out of ten of them -- but maybe 5 out of 10 if you're any good at it. Why would you not want even one? "Hard to be generous"? Sure it is; that's why it's a virtue.

[Zhade]

99. I, for one, see being generous with those who endorse proven liars a dangerous thing.

I don't WANT to get comfortable and friendly with those who support liars.

[flowomo]

102. yes, generosity of spirit is very costly....

avoid.

[lumberjack_jeff]

420. You'll be more comfortable and friendly with them as part of the opposition party? n/t

[Moochy]

671. Exactly

get the trash out.

and by trash i mean lying, disingenuous, subthread abandoning, racist piece of shit trolls who need tombstones.

[anonymous171]

92. This poster is too far gone. Hillary will always be the "victim" and Obama the relentless agressor.

They have succumbed to an alternate reality. Surfing Hillaryis44 and reading too much Taylor Marsh can do that to you.

[flowomo]

101. hmmm... I see...

I doubt Obama would be very pleased with that decision. "Oh, I had a long-time Democrat try to engage me in a conversation but she was too far gone, so I wrote her off. Who needs that vote, right?"

That may have been the ONE vote you truly won single-handedly. But you wrote it off. I'm not saying it is or it isn't -- but I have to wonder about the strategy behind your "campaign".

[JVS]

217. Dumping a huge load of bullshit in an attempt to guilt trip is not "engaging in conversation"

We can skip this one. Go for the easier pickings.

[lumberjack_jeff]

397. The new paradigm: Democratic underground is the place to find voters "too far gone"...

... to vote for Obama. :banghead:

Maybe, just maybe, it's easier to get the votes of democrats. But I'm convinced that's not really the point. Obama supporters are disinclined to allow heretics into their midst. They require something more than just a vote.

[laugle]

122. Finally.....a voice of sanity in all

this vitriol............they just don't get it............

[lumberjack_jeff]

374. Exactly. It as if they're running a club, not a campaign.

The only thing that matters is getting people to vote D.

[NDambi]

48. Vote McCain and when things go further down the drain..suck it up and shut the fuck up about it

[Name removed]

143. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[NDambi]

244. Luda...you at it again..huh....truth doesn't hurt at all..let the OP vote McCain..and

take the medicine when he wins! The OP can vote for Satan for all I care...but don't cry about letting the Devil in and the house burns down...

I will never vote for Hillary..that's in stone, but I won't vote for McCain either..but if McCain wins..you won't see me crying like some weak-kneed bitch..or saying to Hillary supporters look what you did...I'll suck it up and so should those that say they will vote McCain before Obama.

You don't like it Luda...so what..life goes on and we all get older. You can alert away, obvious the Mods didn't have a problem with my post because it's still here. So stop trying to get me banned because we disagree. You're turning into a stalker. Just put me on ignore and end your obvious pain.

[amelia]

50. Insults again are the answer

to the post. Instead of listening to what I said, and maybe trying to actually understand what I'm trying to tell you, you just start with the insults again. Do you think this is going to help your candidate? Why do you think that annihilating Clinton will make her supporters any fonder of yours? Why can't you tone down the rhetoric and have some valid discussions about why you support your candidate instead of this childish flaming? If you really support your candidate, then you should be trying to point out the good things about your candidate and convert me to support him. Trashing my candidate isn't the way to go. It just makes me resent yours. I already said above that it wasn't right but I can't help the way I feel. I guess in that regard, I am being childish but let me tell you, insulting me isn't the way to change my mind and that is part of what I'm trying to get you to understand.

[GarbagemanLB]

53. Do you honestly not see the crap posted by Hillary supporters? I mean, seriously?

[laugle]

130. Have you ever heard the

saying: "kill them with kindness?"

It's hard, but damn it works.........think strategy........and take longggg breaks from DU, it gets too negative around here!

I believe in Karma, what you give out, you will get back.....

[leftynyc]

246. Wow - I haven't heard the

"but he started it" argument since my babysitting days.

[flowomo]

65. I hear you.

I'm only one voice... and a likely Obama voter on April 22... but I know exactly what you are saying. Please, don't dig in too deeply yet. I think Obama has promise, and McCain is just more of the same GOP insanity.

[amelia]

119. You are another good supporter for Obama and

I appreciate that you can talk to me as one Democrat to another, without insults. I said in a post above that if I stop reading all the anti Clinton blogs and stop listening to the pundits, I probably would vote for Obama if he is the winner because November is a lone way off and I will cool off. I only know that this has to stop or there are many Clinton supporters who will vote for McCain. I'm not just talking about DU but most of the progressive blogs and the media. There is a much hate against Clinton and she doesn't deserve it. I know she isn't perfect and she has done things that I don't like, such as voting for the Iraq war. But she has been a good Democrat for most of the time and she shouldn't be trashed as she is by other Democrats.

[Cha]

69. Nobody wants you to change your

mind.. posts like yours are a whiny dime a dozen.

[flowomo]

74. this Obama supporter certainly wants to change her mind...

why would I piss away a potential vote? That's nuts.

[GOTV]

294. We get it already. It's hard to support O because his supporters are mean. Not a new sentiment....

.... it's been posted over and over again for months. Some people just don't care, you're not going to make them care. They're either angry or they're bullies or they just like fighting.

I think you'd get further if you didn't minimize the impact of the vitriol from the much smaller population of Clinton supporters here. It's just as ugly, there's just fewer of them to dish it out.

If trash talk and insults bother you hide the threads and ignore the posters. Some people do discuss the candidates positions. It's nobody's fault but yours that you're reading the insulting threads. Ignore them.

If you will not ignore them then there's no hope for you. It's part of the anonymous internet culture that some people will be ugly and petty and you cannot stop that. It's speaks poorly of you if you cannot raise yourself out of the muck and into the air which is just a little higher but is there.

I have little patience for those of you who will pick your candidate based on a selective reading of the internet background noise. If you're willing to do that, I think my time would be better spent discussing the candidates with those who are more interested in what the candidates say and not by what the worst of their supporters say.

[Joe the Revelator]

51. It amazing how many new DUers support Hillary

I have nothing against them, its just a strange trend worth noting.

[goldcanyonaz]

54. You're never amazed when a new Obama supporter spawns around here.

That's daily, but of course they support your candidate so they're cool.

[flowomo]

58. new? The OP? She's been here since 2001

or did I mnisunderstand your post?

[amelia]

96. I've been here since 2000 but I don't post a lot and you are

an excellent Obama supporter because you are the kind of person that is able to get me to change my mind, if Obama wins the primary. Along with the person above who reminded me of the Supreme court. This is what I tried to say in my post so that people would understand. I'm not just talking about the insults here but at most progressive sites. Everyone has to tone it down or this party will be split.

[laugle]

132. It's already split, the question will be

"how can we put it together again?" Is there a story in there about "HUMPTY DUMPTY?"......lol

[rodbailey]

492. All the king's horses

and all the king's men (read delegates and super delegates) will put Humpty together again - and he's going to look just like AL GORE. He may be the answer to the bitter divisiveness that we see in this thread. Slide on over to the Al Gore '08 Forum where peace and tranquility prevail.

[MagickMuffin]

176. You were a DUer before DU existed....

Wow, How did you manage that?.?.?

I was going to let your first reference in your OP slide, but you made the claim again. So, I have to question how did you do it?.?.?

Democratic Underground (DU) was founded on Inauguration Day, January 20, 2001, to protest the illegitimate presidency of George W. Bush and to provide a resource for the exchange and dissemination of liberal and progressive ideas.

[leftynyc]

248. Try clicking on her profile

It's all the evidence she'll need and you can apologize anytime.

[MagickMuffin]

499. I did check out her profile, and she continues to claim she was here before 2000

No apology needed. She needs to be more careful about her claims.

[Maddy McCall]

87. Amelia has been here much longer than you.

:shrug:

[LulaMay]

144. Not amazing at all, and proves the OP'spoint.

[Taxmyth]

185. Got chased over from Kos

Couldn't take the nastiness over there anymore so I came here. That might be the reason you're seeing some new faces supporting Senator Clinton. It's definitely not much different but when I first arrived, I did find a lot of pro-Clinton postings. Unfortunately, many of those people have moved on also.

[Name removed]

52. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

146. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DemGa]

56. Thank you -- wonderfully said

You've described pretty much the way I feel too. Obama's use of Hillary's "negatives" generated by right-wing slander turned me off to him from the start. And this laid the groundwork for the vitriol that followed. IMO.

You are right, there are many who feel the same.

[OzarkDem]

57. Great post

There are many of us who feel the same way.

[goldcanyonaz]

68. Yes, and growing every day.

[whatchamacallit]

61. I forgot what this makes me wanna say... Oh yeah...

FUCK HILLARY!

[Jakes Progress]

510. There's the Obama way.

Such class. Such grace. So typical of the debating skills put forth in his behalf.

[whatchamacallit]

644. How do you debate a bucket of snot?

The OP blows, classy Jake.

[Hepburn]

62. April Fools...right?

You cannot possibly be serious.

[Bonobo]

66. Jeebus Crisis! Get a grip on yourself!

[bevoette]

67. these kinds of posts floor me: this is NOT American Idol!! (nt)

[TheWraith]

73. Excuse me, but you're living in a fantasy.

Right out of the gate on this message it's clear that you don't have any objective grasp on the situation. If the "venom and hostility" you claim were actually there, why do you think it is that virtually every Democrat not already in the Clinton camp--and even many who are there--agree that the overwhelming majority of this campaign's vitriol has come from Clinton, not from Obama?

You selectively see only what you want to see, and distort reality to justify your opinion. It seems in your world view, the Obama campaign forced Bill Clinton to compare Obama to Jesse Jackson--a statement which was unanimously viewed, even by many Clinton supporters, as spinning Obama's South Carolina lead and victory as being only due to black people supporting black people. You also conveniently ignore the rest of the Clinton camp's laundry list of smears, such as the Iowa county chair pushing the "secret muslim" smear, the Clinton surrogates repeatedly and loudly trying to push Obama's teenage drug use, the photo from his trip to Africa, or a dozen other things.

Do these not exist in your world? Can you come up with even one tenth, or one twentieth the number and vileness of smears directed at Clinton? Of course you can't, because they're not there. You WANT to see Clinton as the victim, so you do.

If you want an opinion on who's doing the damage, ask Nancy Pelosi. Ask Howard Dean. Ask Bill Richardson. Even Clinton-loyalists like Paul Begala increasingly agree that the Clinton campaign has gone too far. Anyone who does not or will not recognize that the Clinton camp, Mark Penn's Rove-Lite tactics, and a desire to win at all costs are what dirtied this election is either incompetant or, most likely, simply unwilling to accept reality.

So congratulations. You've had your opportunity to prove that you're blindly loyal to the Clinton campaign, and happy to accept their lies and talking points as unvarnished fact. Enjoy your Kool Aide.

[Jim Sagle]

80. Don't waste keystrokes on them. Instead, fuck 'em.

[BigBearJohn]

81. I'm with you!! Given the tone and tenor of this board, it was brave for you to say all that. K/R

:hug:

[goldcanyonaz]

90. Very brave indeed!

:hug:

[milkyway]

82. Who called Bill Clinton a racist? I never heard of anybody saying that. There's a big difference

between being a racist and using subtle racial stereotypes to win votes and the presidency. That is what's really pathetic--the Clintons aren't racists at all, but they had to lower themselves to trying to win the presidency by appealing to the latent racism within some white voters.

When Bill Clinton said, "Jesse Jackson won South Carolina, too," what do you think he was referring to? How come he didn't use John Edwards as a comparison instead? Edwards won South Carolina in 2004 and is much more relevant than Jackson because it was only four years ago. Oh, wait, I get the connection...Jesse Jackson is black, and so is Barack Obama! What Clinton must have meant was that black candidates have won South Carolina before, but couldn't win the nomination nationwide because...they're black!

[Name removed]

83. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[stevietheman]

86. Please stop the attacks on our nominee Barack Obama. n/t

n/t

[MadBadger]

91. Thanks Mom.

[Name removed]

93. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

148. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TexasObserver]

95. Great April Fool's post.

Don't take it seriously, and don't believe a word you've said. Hillary fan digging out yet another old sock puppet seems most likely.

[rodeodance]

460. no--it's not. as much as you would like it to be. Your ASSumption is wrong

Great April Fool's post.
Posted by TexasObserver


Don't take it seriously, and don't believe a word you've said. Hillary fan digging out yet another old sock puppet seems most likely.

[proud2BlibKansan]

97. Are you Hillary people really this blind?

She is not progressive.

She is a liar.

She has REPEATEDLY attacked Obama.

You are delusional if you think he has attacked her or that his supporters have attacked her.

If you don't vote for Obama, you are voting for McCain.

[MadBadger]

98. Then you heard reports the Obama Campaign used the race card? You mean you werent paying attention?

Got any examples that we can chew on?

[ecstatic]

100. sleeper troll cells

:rofl:

[Tarheel_Dem]

105. As forestated, I hope you don't have children and/or grandchildren...

McCain has promised "more wars". Since the all volunteer army is FUBAR, where do you think the fresh recruits will come from? :eyes:

[cooolandrew]

106. Isn't this the most unfair way to judge a candidate isn't it about the candidates themselves not ..

the supporters. I mean if you were running would you like to be judged by your own record than just a passionate few who suported you. Also supporters both sides have been over zealous in their support.

[DUyellow]

112. you are so right

[Milo_Bloom]

107. Bull.

Very simply... I don't believe you.

Why, because the reason you claim you aren't willing to vote for Obama is b/c of OTHERS have said, not Obama. It isn't b/c of anything Obama stands for, it is b/c of a personal problem you have with other people whose opinions you can't control.

If you had an actual issue, you wouldn't vote for Obama because of his stance on "X", I may believe you... but this silliness of "I won't vote for X because X's supporters have done Y" Complete, total... BULL and you know it.

[Catherina]

108. Just taking out the trash amelia, just taking out the trash. n/t

[DeepModem Mom]

110. I am an Obama supporter, and I fear you are not alone -- especially among women...

(especially working class women) who have strongly supported Hillary. There is bad stuff from Hillary supporters at DU, but her supporters are hugely outnumbered here. They can't begin to do the damage here that the Hillary haters do. Just look at the posts on the Greatest Page, and consider how many more of them criticize Clinton than Obama. Look at the top of the Home Page any day, where the Greatest of the Greatest Page, with the most recs, are posted. Always anti-Hillary.

Outside DU, among the punditry, it's a relentless drumbeat against HRC, with hardly anyone to answer the attacks. It is taking its toll. Hillary will lose, not only to a younger, more gifted (and, of course, male) candidate, Obama, but with the help of thousands of hours of punditry -- free advertising for Obama's campaign. The campaign is being driven now by the press, just as the GE campaigns of '00 and '04 were driven by the press, putting Bush in the WH twice.

I support Obama for my own personal reasons, from my own life history -- but as a woman (I admit it), the vile attacks on Hillary, the ridicule, anger me to the core of my being.

I hope the hatred heaped on this woman doesn't come back to haunt us, and Barack Obama, in November.

As you say, it didn't have to be this way.

[flowomo]

113. you and I see this the same way....

If the pro-Obama supporters who replied to this OP with such anger and hostility are planning to go knocking on doors to try to win votes for Obama, I shudder at the damage they may do. How will they react to all the undecideds, former Hillary supporters, Republicans and independents who open those doors? Punch them in the face?

[MadBadger]

125. I'm sorry, but i think a lot of this is because of the campaign Hillary runs.

[DeepModem Mom]

133. She has, indeed, always been a lightning rod --

one reason I support Obama (electability -- although I think both of these candidates are a gamble). But I remember the first negative notes in the campaign, way back after the first debates, when Edwards went negative, and then finally Obama was convinced to join him.

If Obama were behind, some of the similar tactics might be in use. Barack himself may be a candidate for sainthood, but I doubt Axelrod is. He, of course, has worked for the Clintons.

[SaveOurDemocracy]

135. Thank you for espressing those truths DeepModemMom

I greatly appreciate and respect the fairness you've shown throughout this primary season. :patriot:

[BigBearJohn]

137. Wow. Just wow. Deep Modem Mom, you touched me to core of my being.

Thank you for your humanity, sensitivity and wisdom.
:hug:

[aquart]

484. November? Only in November?

So, for your own personal reasons...you never want to see a woman as president of the United States. I hope you are very young...because if you think it's a possibility you are going to have a long wait.

"This woman." Don't you dare deceive yourself that it was only because Hillary Clinton is "this woman."

ANY WOMAN. And you sat there and let it happen.

[laugle]

111. Unfortunately, you are right on the mark!

And the BO supporters standard rebuttal is; "the Clinton supporters are just as bad."

By failing to realize this major error, they may very well doom Obama's chance at winning the big prize, the general election, if he gets the nom.

Maybe Obama needs to give one of his phony "UNITY" speeches, he thinks he can take us all for granted, but that's a big risk..........

[dbmk]

309. See you might be right for two paragraphs..

But then you use the "phony" - signalling that your stance is "We will say whatever pleases us - but you better still pander to us of you want our votes".

And as far as him taking anything for granted, that seems quite the subjective assumption.

[donheld]

117. .

:nopity:

[TTUBatfan2008]

118. Amelia...

You want right wing attacks? Look no further than the fear mongering, national security 3 AM ad straight from Hillary's actual campaign. Bill Clinton dug his own grave by comparing Obama to Jesse Jackson in order to marginalize him. He's not a racist, but he said things that plenty of people were offended by.

[EmilyAnne]

120. I'm sorry you feel this way, Amelia. I think what we are seeing here is the culmination of 8 years

of frustration and anger. People are misdirecting a lot of those sentiments now and it needs to stop. We are all on the same side. We are all disgusted with what the Bushies have done to this country. Just think of the whirlwind we've experienced in the last 8 years from the voter fraud of the Gore/Bush election to 9-11 to Afghanistan to Iraq to lies about WMDs to the bashing of gay rights to Terry Schiavo to the destruction of the Constitution to the ignoring of global warming to the bottoming out of the US economy....it goes on and on. We've all been through so much and felt so powerless all along. Now, finally, we feel that we have someone to be excited about. You are excited about Hillary Clinton. I am excited about Barack Obama. We both want them to do the same things, however. We both want the same things. McCain shouldn't be considered. That is such a dangerous choice, in my opinion.

Barack Obama hasn't called for Senator Clinton to drop out. Furthermore, he has never belittled her or her campaign, but rather has always said that she is a formidable opponent and that she should stay in as long as she wants.

By the way, I don't see how Barack Obama played the race card. This is what he had to say about Bill Clinton's remarks. He wasn't hateful, he didn't race bait, he was frank and levelheaded. I know you said that it makes you mad to even hear Obama, but if you can stomach just a short clip, you may see what I am talking about as far as what happened about Clinton's comments.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmE1VWUlOD0

[dailykoff]

123. Thank God we're not getting anybody you'd vote for.

I consider your post a good sign. :)

[leftynyc]

254. Keep throwing away votes

That'll help.

[goldcanyonaz]

302. I doubt you'll find it a good sign in the months to come.

[drmom]

124. Absolutley right...it is the Obama supporters that have turned me away too.

I'm assuming Clinton will be forced out sooner or later, and I plan to vote for McCain. I don't want the democrats to find success in this method of campaigning. The only way to discourage such vitriol is to work for its failure.

[MadBadger]

126. Think about this then when you go into the voting booth,,,maybe you will come to your senses

[EnviroBat]

366. Excellent point...

[GarbagemanLB]

129. So you don't care about the right to choose? You do know the next president will likely be picking 2

Supreme Court justices...

[LulaMay]

141. That threat has been held over our heads to do as we're told for too long. Women are angry

at seeing our 1st viable woman candidate being shoved round by a bunch of bullies. We are more than half the population and party. We want equality. We want equal representation. We want sexism addressed with the same seriousness racism is. We're tired of being the water carriers, precinct walkers, office volunteers, taken for granted while men shut us out and dangle Row V. Wade over our heads.

What does it mean if we don't have equality?

We are making a stand.

[GarbagemanLB]

147. Good for you. Just hope your state is liberal enough to keep abortion legal when R v W is overturned

[LulaMay]

157. It won't be overturned. It's based on right to privacy, and a mountain of case law. Having a womens

movement and fighting for real, full equality won't take a back seat to threats like yours.

Hmmmmm....a woman president, who'd appoint liberal female judges, give a kick in the pants to Congress to ratify the ERA, which they submit with a shrug every session.

Then we wouldn't have to worry about Roe V. Wade even being chipped away at.

[GarbagemanLB]

161. liberal female judges? What the fuck? It's almost like you want ANY woman to be president. Condi in

2012, right? Jesus...

[JVS]

222. "It won't be overturned" is how you start the post and then you end with...

"Then we wouldn't have to worry about Roe V. Wade even being chipped away at."

So which is it?

[kmsarvis]

172. WHAT A BUNCH OF BS...........

SEXISM IS A HORRIBLE THING AND AS A MALE I CANT EVEN PRETEND TO KNOW HOW SHITTY IT MUST BE TO HAVE TO FACE IT EVERYDAY,BUT TO CRY SEXISM WHEN IT IS'NT THERE I THINK ACTUALLY HELPS PERPETUATE IT. AS A LIBERAL BEING ACCUSED OF SUPPORTING SEXISM IS AS INSULTING AS IT IS RIDICULOUS .HOW CAN YOU NOT EXPECT A POST LIKE THIS TO PISS PEOPLE OFF.


P.S. I KNOW YOU DONT REPRESENT ALL CLINTON SUPPORTERS AND IM SURE A MAJORITY OF THEM WOULD ALSO BE OFFENDED BY YOUR POST.

[goldcanyonaz]

304. If we don't stand up now we will forever be told to sit down.

I'm mad as hell and I'm NOT going to take it anymore.

[goldcanyonaz]

306. Bravo!

Many men and women feel the same way. You're NOT alone.

[beezlebum]

493. whose heads?

ppl who "plan on voting for mccain?"

b/c that's who gmanLB was respnding to. so you think it would be better to have mccain, b/c r v w couldn't be overturned?

just checkin.

[anonymous171]

131. gb2FR. Your kind aren't wanted here.

And by "your kind" I mean republicans.

[LulaMay]

497. Awwwwww.........

[EmilyAnne]

139. I really hope you reconsider. McCain is horrible. This isn't a game. My 19 year old cousin was

killed in Iraq and the heartbreak in my family is something I can't even try to explain here. And its not unique. More than 4,000 US families are going through the same thing, not to mention the hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilian families that have experienced the lose of a loved one. I don't think that this election is as vitriolic as some of us think. We are just so sensitive after 8 years of Bush/Cheney hell. We are turning on each other much more than Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama have turned on each other. We aren't doing our candidates any favors by acting like this and I am sure they would both be ashamed of some of their supporters if they read the DU. Seriously, we all need to stop this.

[lumberjack_jeff]

387. Hillary supporter asks you to reconsider

Posters like this
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=5349292&mesg_id=5352834

are the ones who are systematically driving Hillary supporters who should find significant agreement with Obama to the Republican party. Unfortunately, posters like that are not only tolerated, but openly embraced.

No one stops to question whether trolls such as this are democrats at all. We need to all take a deep breath and chill out. Myself included.

McCain would work to end Social Security
McCain would keep troops in Iraq indefinitely
McCain would continue to rack up unsustainable debt
McCain would be in thrall to the fundie "end-times" dispensationalists
McCain would continue the march toward turning government into nothing more than a facilitator of usa, inc.
McCain would continue the transformation of the supreme court into a rubber stamp for fascism.

[beezlebum]

488. wow. you're voting mccain. how bold of you to admit it. say,

doesn't the general rule @ DU that we support the democratic nominee apply here? even if you are currently supporting a dem, doesn't the clearly expressed (and by expressed i mean shat) plan on EVER supporting the republican opponent nullify the fact that you are currently following the rules? especially since obama is the most likely nominee, you're most likely, then, going to vote for mccain.

not to be a hall monitor or anything, but that's about the most sickening thing i have read on DU to date. once again- allowing "innertoobs supporters"- some of whom may or may not even be actual democrats but (R) ops for all we know- to influence whether or not you vote for a DEM is PATHETIC, WEAK, SAD, LAZY, you get the drift.

planning on voting for mccain far surpasses any of the bullshit vitriol and smears anywhere on this forum- i don't give a crap WHAT your reasoning is- and if "supporters" rightfully had ANY influence on my vote, your post alone would be reason enough to abstain from voting for clinton in the unlikely event she wins- thankfully, i'm not that stupid.

[Swamp Rat]

127. LOL!

:rofl:

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

408. Oh, my!

:rofl:

[CRH]

443. After the Rocky analogy, your Yo Adrian is priceless, lol. n/t

[Swamp Rat]

444. Hilbo

She drew 'first blood.' :D

[SaveOurDemocracy]

138. Well said, amelia. Thank you. ... k&r

I feel as you do ... and I truly wish it wasn't so. :(

[Qanisqineq]

140. Good job amelia

Says what a lot of us are thinking.

:kick:

[LulaMay]

142. You said it all.

[Bobbie47]

145. Amelia

that coin flips both ways.

[apocalypsehow]

149. Uh-huh. Bullshit.

I belong to another board, a strictly pro-Obama board, and several members there, who have my "real world" e-mail address, lurk at DU because they enjoy the latest breaking news, the pro-Obama posts, etc. One of them e-mails me the other night and tells me claims - untrue claims - are being made about me by my *ignored* poster in a thread I was participating in.

This person e-mailed me the gist of these claims. Had that person not known both my "real world" e-mail address and DU identity, and had she not just *happened* to be lurking at DU, specifically GD: P, that claim would have stood un-refuted, and hundreds of DU'ers and outside lurkers would right now believe a patent falsehood about me (several falsehoods, in fact).*

That poster - a serial liar - is typical of the HRC boosters here. Peddle your fairy tale elsewhere.

(*edited repost)

[Usrename]

151. So what is your problem with supporting Obama?

I don't get what your point is.

[TheDonkey]

152. Here take a kleenex

You'll be needing them as you enable more rethuglican rule because mean old Obama baddies are dissing Hillary while her supporters stand by innocent can be and of course not antagonistic towards the frontrunner, heavens no.

[CakeGrrl]

155. So what's the point of this post?

I'm not sure if you came to guilt Obama supporters with the announcement that you'll admittedly not vote for him out of spite, which it sounds like you're doing, or if you're "offering" that you can be persuaded that he's a viable option.

If it's the former, there's not much to be done. If you are unable or unwilling to see why people - men AND women alike, including myself - take major issue with the way the Clinton campaign and its surrogates have lied ('Obama's trying to disenfranchise voters', 'Obama wants me to quit'), smeared, bullied (Bill Richardson = "Judas") and are actively whisper-campaigning and fearmongering (waving the Wright boogeyman at the SDs according to Howard Ickes), then there's not much to work with where you're concerned.

If your stance is the latter, see above and give his speeches an actual LISTEN rather than forming an opinion based on the back-and-forth of a message board. I'm not sure what else you want to hear from Obama supporters.

Had I felt the Clinton campaign had played fair, never mind the need to cozy up to the right wing MSM to get airtime and endorsements and BOTH Clintons building up McCain's positives AGAINST a fellow Democrat, I would've had a more difficult choice in deciding whom to support. The Clinton campaign made that decision much, much easier. Every complaint I've lodged against her on these threads has been in DIRECT response to the words and deeds of Clinton or her surrogates.

I will support whomever wins the nomination FAIRLY. But I don't think Clinton can cross that particular threshold. If she steals this nomination, especially after crying "disenfranchisement" of FL and MI to suit her whims, then relying on the superdelegates to NEGATE those same votes if they don't yield the numbers she wants, then I will not support a proven liar and vote-stealing cheater.

Obama is on his way to winning solely on his ability to get more voters to vote for him to give him a fair lead in pledged delegates and popular vote. If he wins the nomination on those merits and you choose not to cast a vote for him, it will be out of spite and bitterness - the reason, in my opinion, that so many other Clinton supporters who have said they will not vote for Obama will do so.

[dkf]

156. One day you will see Bill and Hillary in a completely different light, as I have.

And then you will feel a complete fool, who was played and manipulated by the best.

[TomBall Democrat]

266. Well said, I agree

the largest part of my anger with the Clintons is related to 16 years of defending their lying, cheating asses.

I'm not over that yet.

Why the hell would I sign up for more of the same?

[Laelth]

158. I am sorry you feel that way. n/t

-Laelth

[McCamy Taylor]

159. The Corporate Media played the race card for the RNC. First Hillary got smeared, Obama is

now getting blamed in a second wave of attacks. Do not be fooled. Obama did get a sizable ratings boosts and lots of votes, but he does not control media lies. The press did it. And right now, the narrative that Rove is working on is "Oh that bad boy, Obama! He told us that Hillary was playing the race card, but he was playing it!"

If we get sucked into this, we will be at each other's throats!

[susanwy]

659. bingo

Someone who gets that the PRESS is to blame for the race card, not either candidate. RACE = RATINGS, get it? To discuss race as a factor in the primary is NOT racist, but press has made it so. No one can convince me that Obama's race has not been a factor in his rise to the front runner status. Is it the only reason? Of course not, he has definite political skills and has run an outstanding capaign. But, race IS a factor and to discuss the demographics and influence of race is a legitimate discussion. We are falling into the trap of believing that all things are black and white (pun intended). Haven't we had enough of that (your either with us or against us) the last eight years? But the press is leading us around by our nostrils and we all just suck it up!

[Shae]

160. Oh well Obamaconababydroids

you blew it. You were meanies and Amelia ain't gonna vote for him now.
Even though you'll be working and voting for Obama, it's your fault that he won't win, 'cause you were naughty.
Looks like Bush gets a third term, after all. At least 4 more years of war and another 4,000 dead soldiers. But you gotta learn your lesson.

:rofl:

[quakerboy]

162. Dunno about the others

I read things, and respond in what I generaly believe to be a rational way, while trying to maintain a reasonable level of information quality.

I also advocate for who I believe to be the best qualified candidate.

I think there are as many who are on the opposite of your ticket. If you are correct, then no democrat can win. I have not given up that hope.

[still_one]

166. I agree. This OP is just bullshit. To even risk the chance of mccain being president

by NOT voting for the nominee, obviously they really don't care for women's rights, because if they looked at mccain's voting record they should be terrified

The jerk mccain agreed with the South Dakota law that said not just that a women shouldn't be allowed an abortion, but it should be illegal EVEN IF THE LIFE OF THE MOTHER IS AT STAKE

mccain a person who WILL APPOINT SUPREME COURT JUSTICES IN THE IMAGE OF SCALIA AND THOMAS

believe it when he says it. HE IS NO MODERATE

and any so-called Democrat of any slant is NO DEMOCRAT if they don't vote for the Democratic nominee in November

I only wish those so-called Democrats who don't vote for the nominee are the ones who become the victims of the lack of healthcare, social security, rights to privacy, unequal pay, and all the other wonderful consequences of their actions

[still_one]

163. Good, because for those women who vote for mccain over Obama

if he is the nominee, when the Supreme Court pisses on your back, don't come and look for my support or sympathy, you deserve what you get

I have no problem voting for the Democratic nominee WHOEVER it is, but if Obama does get the nomination, and mccain wins, because the polls show that SO-CALLED democratic WOMEN VOTED FOR MCCAIN, they can go to hell, because that is what they will get from mccain

As far as your so-called heroic statement that you will leave the box blank, I have heard up to my neck that shit from Clinton supporters, along with voting for mccain. Perhaps I WILL RECONSIDER MY POSITION IF clinton is the nominee, and decide to do the same fucking thing to YOUR candidate

[saracat]

167. You might take a second look at Obama's voting recored and his predilection for

Moderate " and conservative judges before you be so sure he would be any different than Mccain.

[still_one]

168. I will vote for the Democrat nominee. You don't think there is a difference

then you don't know what you are talking about

I hope those WOMEN that decide NOT to vote for the Democrat nominee or worse vote mccain, get exactly what he will give them if he becomes president. THEY DESERVE IT, but NOT MY DAUGHTER BECAUSE OF THOSE IDIOTS WHO ARE CONSIDERING THAT ACTION!!!!!!!

[gaspee]

415. Exactly

He planned to vote for Roberts, of all fucking people, until he was told it might hurt his chances for the presidency.

Obama will appoint conservative judges because he wants to "unite" people. Yeah, unite them to the right of center, not to the left, which is where we need to be heading.

Obama is a conservative dem, and all these so-called progressives are going to be in for quite the shock if he manages to win the general.

[McCamy Taylor]

164. This is a Divide and Conquer Zone. Do we even know whom the enemy is anymore?

Hint, it does not belong to the Democratic Party, because there is no money in being a Democrat.

[still_one]

169. The enemy is mccain, IT SHOULD BE OBVIOUS!!! /nt

[RiverStone]

165. wrong

Please do not use such a broad brush.

The goal should be to build unity between the supporters, not add fuel to the fire.

Not voting for either Dem candidate passively aids that war mongering puke bastard and I can't fathom any true Dem threatening to do so.

We are all the same team and eventually that will take center stage again. Till then, why post divisive rants that help neither candidate and do nothing to build bridges on DU or with the party at large?

peace~:)

[still_one]

170. You don't want to vote for the Democratic nominee if it isn't YOUR candidate

go to some other board that doesn't want to divide the Democratic party, because we don't need it

and in case you don't realize DEMOCRATIC UNDERGROUND is for progressives, not for people who will enable mccain to win the election

[mythyc]

174. exactly. LOVE how this so-called lifelong Clintons advocate

ignores slick-willy's own "in the primaries you vote with your heart, in the general you vote with the party" maxim....

[Skittles]

178. you're not getting it

I understand COMPLETELY the level of disgust the OP is feeling - I feel the same way although in the end I know I will hold my nose and vote for Obama if I have to - AND I DON'T EVEN LIKE HILLARY.

[still_one]

188. It was more than disgust, the OP said they won't even vote in the general

The OP identified with Yellow Dog Democrats. Well if the OP was REALLY a Yellow Dog Democrat the OP would vote for the Democratic nominee

As far as you empathy with the level of disgust the OP is feeling, you do realize the knife has cut both ways by BOTH supporters

The number of insults that have been hurled toward either side should be equally disgusting to you, because it HAS come from both directions

Instead of debating the issues between the nominees, it has become an exercise in self-destruction

The truth is both nominees are so much more superior than mccain, there should not even be a hesitation to vote for whoever the Democratic nominee is

[aaronbees]

171. I understand what I've done, thanks

And I didn't use broad brush logic like yours to get there.

I went out and voted for the candidate I respect who gives me a glimmer of hope that something different can happen in ol' D.C. I got excited about him, told friends about him early on in his candidacy, debated with people and saw some get excited too. Even with those I disagreed, at least they were impressed by the exuberance and dedication he's generated for the Democratic party and for getting someone new and different in office as president than the same old machine we've seen, a machine most ably represented by Sen. Clinton. I know it's difficult to see from your side of whatever fence you've built between yourself and "Obama supporters", as you so widely put it, but there are plenty of Democrats who actually engage in civil discourse and who are ready to get a Dem in the White House pronto no matter whom they back now.

So I honestly don't take kindly to a patronizing "what you've done" tone.

And I'll tell you what I didn't do. I didn't take the blogosphere or DU punditry in-fighting to heart in such a way as to concoct a self-serving load of kiss-up-to-me hyperbole when the going got rough for my candidate. And I haven't taken my absolute disenchantement with Sen. Clinton's rudderless, spin-slimed campaign (in my view) to heart enough that I'd fail to vote for her as president even in the unlikely event she ends up as our nominee. Because I would vote for her if she wins fair and square. Absolutely and proudly. I mean, you do understand that people are allowed to learn about candidates and form opinions about them over time, right? That over a primary season we may even learn something about the people who ask us for our vote? Even if that assessment becomes negative? Heck, we may even learn something about where the party (whomever makes it up now and in the future) is and should be headed. I mean, should people who are truly flabbergasted by some of Clinton's tactics just shut up or surgarcoat everything so you feel, gosh, like we're nice enough that you may vote for our guy? Somehow, I find that hard to believe rationally ... but this is DU and anything is possible. Have fun with your mighty and oh-so-not-meaningful non-vote.

[mythyc]

173. as one-sided as any other squinty deflector feigning mock indignation

Obama's *supporters* turned the OP off, yet notice not a word on how Hillary in the flesh:

-- signed a pledge not to accept FL/MI (whoever says it was just campaigning is a liar; search google for crissakes, her statement the day of the DNC ruling was to honor the DNC nominating calendar, period) but then vilifies Obama daily for the DNC's standing by its word as if it's all his not even simply doing but conniving;
-- allowed Buffenbarger to introduce her publicly in Ohio with that disgusting tirade (prius-driving latte liberals etc...) but then raises holy hell over Samantha Power's private monster comment;
-- mocked Obama and anyone who supports him in rhode island with the celestial choirs farce;
-- at the Ohio debate asked if Obama wants a pillow;
-- dared the unthinkable on 60 minutes in saying Obama wasn't a muslim "as far as i know" (eff you hillary, and any supporter who doesn't decry this);
-- that ridiculous "shame on you" tirade when her mailers are equally or usually more scandalous;
-- pulls that niggling denounce and reject b.s. at the ohio debate and then takes geradline ferraro so casually and lightly, saying she didn't agree (DIDN'T AGREE?!) and it's important to stay on issues;
-- cried 10,000 rivers publicly over the plagiarism accusation yet is proven to lift lines left and right from dems and repugs alike, including:
-- playing the fear card like a Rethug in the 3 a.m. Texas ad;
-- has gracelessly skirted around congratulating Obama on any of his victories, while unleashing her minions to diminish each and every one of his as "not counting";
-- at least twice a week if not more finds a way to say McCain is a better candidate than Obama (you go, OP, on party loyalty, yeah get on with your bad self);
-- lies, lies, lies 4 times since Iowa about the sniper fire, then has the audacity to issue press releases about Obama's legitimate professor title; doesn't retract this attack once U.Chicago confirms the title;
-- said not a word against Carville calling Richardson Judas, and then renewing the smear a week later;
-- even manipulatively uses today's bowling joke to interject a smear that obama uses gutter politics....

hell, this is all out of the top of my head. there's so much more.

this OP has a bias---a gaping hole the size of the grand canyon bias. any one-sided sweeping generalization attack will. I have zero respect for you if you "have the truth on ignore", i.e. throw damning final accusations simply at his oh so vague "supporters" when you know well and good hillary has personally done far more and far far worse. i know this falls on deaf ears, used to the crickets coming out to play when facts come up in response to limp, generic opinions aimed to take out the party in a friendly fire incident. anything of this OP's ilk is attempting that exactly whether they admit it or not. so I write to those who either lurking or not who have sense to see things as they really are rather than as they want to prefigure and broad-brush them. who don't want to see more of that image up in Hnmnf's post (#128) anymore, and would rather suicide bomb the party, America, and progressive-democratic principles than admit that their precious Hillary's not mother Theresa reincarnated....

whatever :eyes: go back to lurking in your own wasted mock-indignation. it's better served on DUmp....

and Bill Clinton (love how SC was meaningless b/c Jesse Jackson won it twice) is, if not a racist, a racialist. Both manipulate identity for political ends, and both are beneath contempt. If you're in that much denial over him, what ya gotta say about Geraldine Ferraro hmmm?

[Shae]

179. awesome post , mythyc

[HCE SuiGeneris]

184. thanks for adding some reality here

the OP is crucifying Obama in the exact manor in which she claims Clinton was attacked

the whole diatribe is hypocritical, divisive conjecture...

[Tarheel_Dem]

320. Excellent post mythyc, and thank you....

:applause:

[Catherina]

324. I wish I could recommend your excellent post n/t

[redqueen]

368. Thank you!

[Barrymores Ghost]

601. Response of the Week!!!

Holy Jeebus...can I please cut and paste this into other forums (Slate, SmirkingChimp, HuffingtonPost, etc.)? I promisepromisepromise to link back and give you full kudos and credit!
:toast:

[mythyc]

614. certainly, though who i really want a reply from is the OP

crickets there, just as i expected....

. . . . . . . . .

thanks for the compliment, and request

[Tarheel_Dem]

669. she has posted all throughout this thread, but apparently has

chosen not to address the tactics illustrated in your post. Take it as a compliment, she lost the argument the moment you hit "Send". If she had a shred of integrity (cough**cough**), she would at least come back and acknowledge or refute the points in your post.

I have the same issue with this poster that I have with Hillary, it's a matter of honesty, or the lack thereof.

[godai]

652. Great response. Apparently our sin is to dare challenge a Clinton.

How the poster can ignore all the vitriol coming out of the Clinton campaign, where is it accepted practice to do ANYTHING to get elected, is beyond all logic. All the poster can think of is damning all Obama supporters as radicals who have wrecked the Democratic party. Sometimes the utter lack of any logic by some of the Clinton supporters is just amazing...they are truly blinded by the light of the only people whom they think can save America, the Clintons.

[Skittles]

175. I hear you

I've never been a fan of either candidate but the amount of venom thrown at Ms. Clinton is beyond all reason - it is, quite frankly, SICKENING.

[AmericanUnity]

180. I supported the Clinton's through thick and thin. Now THEY need to support US and the Dem Party!!

[still_one]

192. I will only say this, if those Democrats do not vote for the Democratic nominee

WHOEVER IT IS, they can go to hell, and enjoy it with helping mccain get elected

[Apollo11]

181. I completely understand why you feel this way

but I think it would be a HUGE mistake for any Democrat to not support the Democratic ticket in the fall.

Hillary is a strong candidate in many ways, but she has been let down by a poorly managed campaign, bad financial management, and some unhelpful interventions from her husband and other high-profile supporters like Ferraro.

If Obama wins the nomination then all of us - including Hillary and Bill - should get behind him and work hard to ensure a Democratic victory in November. Anything less would be a betrayal of all that we stand for as Democrats.

This is how I see things, even if on an emotional level I can empathize with your current position.

I sincerely hope you will find a way to overcome your anti-Obama feelings between now and November.

[HCE SuiGeneris]

182. Your dismay is noted. Thanks for tossing kerosene on the fire while

advocating against the presumptive nominee. "yellow dog" huh? More like a blind dog, based upon the incredible bias demonstrated in your tirade.

[Taxmyth]

183. GOP Strategy

Pollute the messageboards that built the net roots movement so successfully in the 05,06 and 07 election cycles. Drive people away from those sites so they can't organize and get out a singular message to the rest of the nation. Might be working.

[DemBones DemBones]

186. We have always been yellow dog Democrats, too, but we would not vote for BO,

should he somehow get the nomination, which I don't think he will. When I say we, I mean my four-person family, who will all vote for HRC when she wins the nomination. His own actions plus the unfair bias in his favor and the uncalled-for attacks on the Clintons in the media and on the sites I used to read have made it impossible for us to ever vote for BO in any election.

He's tarnished himself for good, not just for 2008, by his lies and his smug attitudes, with help from his supporters in the GOP-controlled media and on what are supposed to be leftist sites. It's like a rerun of 2000 except that the leftist sites never bought Bush's act. We won't vote Republican if he's the nominee, we'll vote Green or write in Clinton. I'd like to help the Greens develop into a strong third party, but writing in Clinton might send a clearer message.

There was a time when I thought this race would be resolved by him agreeing to serve as HRC's vice-president, which would give him eight years of good experience and place him perfectly to become president in 2026, when he'll only be 54, young for a president. LBJ had far more experience than JFK but he agreed to run for VP after fighting hard for the presidential nomination. But, like a petulant child, the inexperienced BO wants it now and doesn't care if he destroys the party to get the nomination.

There is far more about him that will turn voters off to him that has not been revealed yet, though I think throwing his white grandmother under the bus in an attempt to cover his own ass was quite enough.

If you want people to like you, you don't throw a family member under the bus, especially a grandparent who raised you after your mom dropped you off at grandma's when you were ten, especially a grandparent who paid your college tuition.

There are more women who vote, more whites who vote, and more older people who vote; you do the math.

[still_one]

190. Your no yellow dog Democrat, in fact if you DON'T vote for the Democrat nominee

you are not even a DEMOCRAT in my book

you deserve the Supreme Court that mccain will give you, BUT MY DAUGHTER DOESN'T

Perhaps I should reconsider MY position of ONLY VOTING FOR THE DEMOCRATIC NOMINEE THAT I WANT?

I won't, but I suggest those who post on this board that will NOT vote for the Democratic nominee to

GET LOST.

THOSE PEOPLE ARE NOT WELCOME HERE

GO START YOUR OWN DAMN PARTY IF YOU DON'T VOTE FOR THE DEMOCRATIC NOMINEE, WE DON'T WANT YOU

[redqueen]

371. No kidding!

How sad that that person doesn't even know what the term "Yellow Dog Democrat" means.

[saracat]

445. Wow! Not only do you seem to want to ensure that women don't vote for

Obama if he is the nominee but you display the fact that you know nothing about how SCOTUS nominees are selected.If Reproductive Rights is your issue, Obama is not going to guarantee them.He has confirmed rapid anti choice judges to the lower courts and was very reluctant to protest Roberts, whose wife is part of Operation rescue. Many women who have educated themselves about Obama are apprehensive about him. Throwing them under the bus because they have doubts about Obama and his interest in Reproductive Rights , when he has a demonstrated pattern of "selling them out", is not very intelligent.Perhaps is you had something to convince them that barack is better on this issue and is genuine, that would be the better path.

[ima_sinnic]

200. you're no Democrat

I've been watching your posts for years and you are just a parrot for bullshit, meaningless drivel like "throwing his grandma under the bus" (do right-wingers ever have a clever thought of their own? do you know any other phrases besides what you hear hannity say? do you know how to use a thesaurus so you can introduce a slightly different vocabulary? or are you all just plain TRITE?) oh, and by the way, white people are now in the minority in this country--deal with it.

Your total lack of insight into Obama, the person, and his extraordinary ability to bring together the diverse ages and races of this country, as well as his appeal to the various people all over the world whose sensibilities we have insulted while plundering their resources--it just shows you are a shallow person without a grasp of the reality of hillary's war machine or the precarious state of the U.S. on the world stage right now, the absolute crucial need to disengage from the corporatists and cronyists and oligarchists.

I call bullshit on you and your sanctimonious bullshit attitude. how convenient, to accuse Obama of "lying" (do you have anything specific?) while totally overlooking the pathological and easily proven lies of hillary. After Obama wins the nomination, it will be a pleasure not to see you around here anymore.

[Catherina]

323. Not just his grandmother

but his "white" grandmother. I haven't read a post by that poster that wasn't A-Z bullshit.

[Catherina]

321. What petulant and racist bullshit

I'll take a Republican who's seen the light over whatever you are.

[POAS]

187. I just wasted 2 minutes of my time...

what a load of ......

If anyone thinks that all the bullshit arguments have been one sided in this campaign then your wearing blinders.

[still_one]

189. no kidding /nt

[ima_sinnic]

193. awww, it's so UNFAIR when a liar is exposed by mean people

and it's so AWFUL when a traitor to the party, who basically told people to vote for mccain instead of obama, is reviled by others in the party. :nopity:

and it's so UNBEARABLE when a political candidate must endure criticism and people who *gasp* actually prefer the other candidate and even *choke, gasp* WON'T VOTE for hillary. :cry:

I'm sure hillary appreciates the fact that apparently you'd vote for her, not because of her stance on any issue (do you even know what her stances are? it doesn't concern you that we'll still be waging war in various places in the world for no good reason--except that she is bought and paid for by the same string-pullers who are behind GWB and it is good for their wallets?), but because the supporters for the other side are such mean, mean people. really, dear, that is such an intelligent way to choose a candidate. :wtf:

as for your last sentence--really, try to get a grip. The person making the biggest effort to ensure Obama won't win the GE is hillary, with her endorsement of McCain and her idiotic efforts to sling mud at Obama, who is clearly the primary front-runner. She has given the other side enough talking points to last well into election season--but somehow he manages to turn them to his advantage--the sign of a genius, actually.

Have you tried counseling? Because after Obama wins the nomination, I wouldn't want to see you melt down or anything. :rofl:

[Skittles]

195. you're not getting it

HOW ABOUT YOU GET COUNSELING? PERHAPS IT WILL MAKE YOUR REMEMBER WHO THE REAL ENEMY IS.

[ima_sinnic]

204. tsk tsk, anger management anyone? caps locks is so not helpful.

I guess it is the Hillary meme now to try to distract from the ways she has been a traitor to the party by trying to point out some other "real enemy." any "Democrat" who would try to tell me that the repuke candidate is more qualified than the Democrat is the "real enemy." And pathological lying also is not exactly something a "friend" does.

[bowens43]

196. another newbie for clinton

your precious clintons have earned the animosity you see here. They are exactly the kind politicians america is sick of. ethically and morally, there is little difference between hillary and bush. both will do or say anything for power. you're too blind to see that or you're a paid shill.they lie, the cheat and are working diligently to steal what Queen Hillary can't win honestly.

[leftynyc]

256. Check her profile

She's been here as long as you.

[Name removed]

Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[redqueen]

373. I didn't even read the whiny screed... did she claim to be a Yellow Dog?

WHY would people use that term if they don't even know what it means?

:think:

[Name removed]

395. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[redqueen]

396. Gee... I don't know...

it does make one wonder...

[amelia]

585. I have posted over the 7 years and I don't feel that I have to

post something every 5 minutes, as some do. Anything that I may post about has usually already been posted. Why should I post redundant topics? I also don't stay on these boards for a long time because I have a life. What the hell don't you understand about what I've said? This is exactly the crap that I'm talking about. My being a yellow dog Democrat should be an indication of how much resentment these personal attacks (now towards me) are causing but evidently you don't care so why are you wasting the space on this board to reply to something that you have "reservations" about?

[Tarheel_Dem]

613. you opted to post a very one-sided attack on Obama supporters...

while completely ignoring the supporters of the other candidate, so yes I have reservations. I'm not trying to win you over, your mind was made up long before you posted this diatribe. And if your support or nonsupport of a candidate is based on someone hurting your feelings on the internet, then you should probably back away from the keyboard.

[JVS]

197. Obama supporters are the best. They're so full of piss, vinegar, and FIGHT!

The teeming horde is just waiting to finally be unleashed on McCain with full force, so get out of the way!

[rug]

250. They're so full of something that's not piss.

[JVS]

355. Awesomeness!

[Perry Logan]

201. We could open a whole section of DU with people who agree with you.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x5120659

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4779500&mesg_id=4779500

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4849238&mesg_id=4849238

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4922044&mesg_id=4922044

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4942967&mesg_id=4942967

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4964704&mesg_id=4964704

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4965088

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4965227

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4982708&mesg_id=4982708

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x5036756

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=5065868&mesg_id=5065868

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=5156352&mesg_id=5156412

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=5165104&mesg_id=5165104

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=5180133&mesg_id=5181094

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=5195072&mesg_id=5195072

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=5204441&mesg_id=5204441

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=5214352&mesg_id=5214352

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=5226313&mesg_id=5226313

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=5235825&mesg_id=5235825

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x5304883

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=5349292&mesg_id=5349292

[JVS]

203. Wow. There's a whole lotta whining going on!

[Perry Logan]

209. I also get private messages from people who have quit DU because of the Clintophobes.

You people have really changed the tone of this place. Go ahead--congratulate yourselves again.

[JVS]

210. Maybe you could start a thread where you let us all see them so that we get a really good chuckle.

[Name removed]

211. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JVS]

213. Does that mean that you won't be posting them? What a disappointment.

[Perry Logan]

216. OK. Here's what they said: "Those Obamites sure suck donkey dick. I'm outta here."

Amazingly, that's what EVERYONE SAYS when they quit DU.

[JVS]

218. Wow. They're so articulate and mature. Are you sure they didn't write little poems too?

:rofl:

[Bonobo]

641. You are a (strangely) busy person.

[susankh4]

202. Thanks for the voice of reason!

K&R

[kevinmc]

206. Do you also use this "Amazing Kreskin " gift on the Lotto? n/t

[Buzz Clik]

207. Um. Why are you hiding your profile?

Clean out any personal information, and open it up.

[rodeodance]

208. Thanks for the post.--it took courage to post it.

[elizm]

212. Well...

:rofl:

[cali]

215. another whiner who distorts the truth

Proportionately, considering there are more Obama supporters than Clinton supporters here, there have been MORE vile posts and attacks on Obama than on Clinton. Obama supporters outnumber Clinton supporters by at least ten fold here on GD-P, but you'd never know it from the number of attacks on Obama.

And frankly people who decide not to vote for the dem nominee based on the opponent's supporters- here or eleswhere, deserve the utmost contempt- whether they be Obama supporters or Clinton supporters.

[DemVet]

220. Insulting another member.....you're really a class act.

You just made another one who WON"T vote for Obama in the fall if he is the Nominee. Congratulations.

[cali]

227. The OP was incredibly insulting and

dishonest. You are the furthest thing from a class act here on DU, and I'm equal opportunity about those who won't vote for the nominee. I have no sympathy or use for idiots whatsofuckingever. Get that through your skull.

[DeeDeeNY]

219. I can't find the logic in your post

Among the many factual errors in your post is the part about MoveOn endorsing Obama. Do you know why they endorsed Obama? It was because they held a vote among their membership and said they would support whoever their members voted for, and Obama got something like over 70% of the vote.
Why not do the mature and responsible thing and first find out the actual facts, not innuendo, about each candidate and then make an informed decision based on fact? Or do you think your vote would be better served by giving a vote to McCain (which is the same as not voting Obama), just to spite Obama supporters on an anonymous message board?

[onefreespiritedchick]

221. You've got to be kidding n/t

[Arkansas Granny]

223. Thank you , Amelia, as you have spoken for many of the Hillary supporters who post here.

I have read all of the replies on this thread and I believe that they pretty much prove some of the points that you were making. There has been a lot of pure hatred posted here lately and it has been overwhelmingly from the Obama camp, if for no other reason, they are overwhelmingly populating this board right now. However, this board is made up of people who are deeply involved in the political process and doesn't represent the feelings of most people I meet. I expect things will tone down around here a lot after a nominee is named.

As a Hillary supporter myself, I hope you will reconsider not voting for Obama if he is the nominee. I have found it hard myself sometimes to distance him from his more vitriolic supporters here, but we will need every Democratic vote in the GE to elect a Democratic President. I really fear for the future of our country if McCain takes office.

[reggie the dog]

224. you help McCain if you do this

"I can't vote for a Republican, but I will leave the box beside the president blank or write in another candidates name, and I will vote a straight Democratic ticket the rest of the way on it, but I will not vote for Obama and you have yourselves to thank for that."

great, so there will be a D congress and an R president, a block for 4 years is what you want????
Personally I will vote for the D presidential candidate and the D candidates all down the list. If everyone did not vote for the Democrats because the candidate of their first choice was not nominated then we would NEVER win an election.

[Connie_Corleone]

225. And Clinton supporters are filled with virtue and good will.

Whatever. If you're going to base your decisions on DU members opinions, pundits and liberal activists in the blogoshpere, that's pretty pathetic.

But, go ahead and get McCain elected because some people on the internet offended you by criticizing THE CLINTONS rightly or wrongly.

[Vinca]

229. You must have a reading disability, Amelia.

There have been horrific posts here about Obama. Until this campaign season I had never alerted one post, but the outright lies against this candidate have been beyond the pale. I actually used the word "libel" in one alert. In addition. Obama supporters have been depicted as mindless cult members. Try reading all the posts on the site.

[atal]

230. The venom and hostility is a measure of the Clinton's detachment....

....from the majority in the democratic party. The Clinton's are only there because of the support they can harness from the special interest groups and establishment.

It's time for the Clinton's to disappear from the US Presidential scene!!

[MrSlayer]

232. Such dramatic horseshit. Completely idiotic reasoning.

I'm for Obama completely. Even if Hillary pulls some shit and somehow snatches the nomination away, I'm still going vote for her. It will make me sick to do so but I will do it. Only a complete and utter fool would vote for McCain or otherwise work to defeat our party when so much is on the line. You aren't a Democrat.

[chimpymustgo]

233. Amelia, you have posted the honest-to-God truth. I can't watch Obama, either.

The media fawning is insane. His supporters are often vicious bullies. And the vilification of the Clintons is straight out of Freeperville.

Al Gore '08.

[Adelante]

234. The lecture circuit is open again, I see nt

[karynnj]

240. In the guise of reasoned speech, you are pushing the Clinton line

You say, "I hadn't decided who to vote for, after Edwards dropped out, until I heard the reports that the Obama campaign used the race card against Bill Clinton in S.C. I couldn't believe it! Bill Clinton, a racist?" You then ignore the charge that Clinton played the race card - and instead hit a strawman that is not the same thing - that Clinton is a racist.

You are equating "playing the race card" and "racist". A politician can do the former without doing the latter. You are also conflating the "Obama campaign" and most of the national media. Per most independent observers, Clinton played the race card after Obama won South Carolina. That was the near instantaneous reaction of the media to Bill's actions. The message was that Obama was the black candidate, who overwhelmingly won blacks thus South Carolina meant nothing.

Consider who had a vested interest in "playing the race card". The unusual thing about Obama in Iowa and in NH was that relatively little was made of him being black. It was not unmentioned, it couldn't be, but he was essentially transcending race - defined by his words and some Senate actions. This was where he wanted to be. Having race a major issue was not to his interest.

You can point to Bill Clinton's speech and the Jesse Jackson comment afterwards - there is nothing in Obama's speech that shows that. The closest the Clinton people have is that someone within the campaign compiled a list of words that they thought showing the CLINTON'S played the race card.

Remember Rove - attack the other side for what you do? The proof Bill Clinton played the race card is Bill Clinton's words - on tape, on the record.

[Jersey Devil]

241. Good to see Clinton has paid her back bills for the campaign

Does Hillary pay hourly or by the piece?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

242. You're Right

I can't even watch cable news...CNN is banal...MSNBC is in the tank for BHO and has their long knives out for Hillary and FOX is a bunch of right wing shills... When I watch t v now it's ESPN, the NBA, and old Law And Order episodes... I meet the definition of alienation...

Same thing for the net...The only sites that don't give a headache are ESPN and various sports blogs... I now see why E. J. Dionne wrote his book "Why Americans Hate Politics"...

[mrJJ]

247. A Family Trait

"I want you to listen to me. I'm going to say this again," he said with a clenched jaw and stern expression that day. "I did not have sexual relations with that woman, Miss Lewinsky. I never told anybody to lie, not a single time, never. These allegations are false."

A Clinton Family Trait

Nafta
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0BrPZYbCdJ4

Bosnia
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=It6JN7ALF7Y

Ireland
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBCmKkLdCuA


October 11, 2007
Flashback: Does Michigan Matter to Clinton?

Hillary Clinton, during which she was asked about the Michigan primary:

"I personally did not think it made any difference, whether or not my name was on the ballot. You know, it's clear, in this election they're having, it is not going to count for anything."

http://www.youtube.com/user/MDRUDGE

Over By February 5th
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=saBU6ux0hsQ

[TomBall Democrat]

249. I don't respect yellow dog Democrats

It's a sign of the inability to act on your own conscience.

And your post proves that.

If you vote for a candidate based on the actions of others, sorry, your opinion has no value for me.

You're not using your own head. And stay out of mine, please - you're not invited.

[madmom]

253. well said, there are a lot of votes to be won over, but why try right?

[TomBall Democrat]

259. BTW, the only people who behaved badly at my

SD convention were HRC supporters.

Whining because they couldn't steal it.

It was embarassing to watch adult women dressed head to toe in their homemade Hillary clothes. Thank God I don't know if their undergarments matched!

Whining because no one would listen to them.

Pathetic and weak.


Good try, no sale, honey.


The Democratic Party is over your candidate. It's a new day. Move on or get left behind.

Those are your only choices.

Or go back and knit some more Hillary caps, that'll beat Obama.

[goldcanyonaz]

301. Yep, NO SALE, honey...

[CRH]

463. It appears his knickers are bunched squeezing his testies until he is testy. n/t

[moondust]

260. Is that you, Geraldine?

:eyes:

[polichick]

264. What a ridiculous spin - it's the Clintons' own nasty tactics that sunk them...

Which staff member are you???

(Did you choose that user name because research shows that it's considered nonthreatening and sincere?)

[undeterred]

265. load of crap

The most vicious people on this forum are the hillary supporters. Do whatever you want and be adult enough to take responsibility for your own emotions and decisions.

[Zero Division]

268. I just don't trust the Clintons to stand up for progressives.

I think a lot of the progressive blogosphere feels the same way. It's not always a case of criticizing Clinton to help Obama. I simply think we ought to give someone new a chance. I would have supported most of the other candidates against Clinton, because I feel certain that Clinton will disappoint us in getting progressive legislation passed. It's not that I'm certain that Obama will not disappoint us, but I'm willing to take a chance on him. I also think that Obama brings more new support to our party than Clinton, who would galvanize the right wing and hinder the opportunity for a greater majority of Democrats in congress. However, I still respect many of those who have a different opinion, and I will certainly vote for Hillary to prevent John "bomb Iran" McCain from taking the presidency.

I feel much that same way about the behavior of many of Clinton's supporters as you do about the Obama supporters, but I've never thought that the behavior of a candidate's supporters should affect my willingness to vote for a candidate, however annoyed I may be by those supporters.

[Arkansas Granny]

300. Thank you. This is the first well reasoned post by an Obama supporter that I

have seen on this thread. You do your candidate proud.

:thumbsup:

[GOTV]

269. Ever see the word "Cult" on DU? So much playing the victim - does it EVER work?

How can adults pretend all the juvenile comments are on the other side?

[tomp]

271. please...

...go back to lurking.

[ray of light]

272. You know..it's not just obama supporters. Clinton and Edwards supporters have been equally

as volatile.

I find it offensive that you only insult ONE group when the GDP has been rampant with slime for over 8 months already.

[Tatiana]

273. I'm sorry you feel that way.

But blame is a two-lane road. A lot of the frustration on the part of the Obama team comes from the campaign Clinton runs. She shakes his hand one night, proclaiming to be honored to share the stage with him and then the very next day shouts, "Shame on you, Barack Obama!"

It was a political stunt, aimed to garner attention and it worked. But I thought it was tasteless. Nevertheless, Sen. Obama never responds to these attacks in kind. He doesn't give as good as he gets. I think some Obama supporters wish he would attack her just as hard as she attacks him. But he doesn't. So, in a way, I think some feel they have to make up that deficit.

If you are going to vote/not vote for someone on the basis of said candidates supporters then so be it. But I think that is silly. Every candidate has crazy, passionate supporters. You ned to be looking at the issues and picking the candidate that most closely aligns with our own views, IMO.

[kitfalbo]

276. Yellow dog

I've never approved of that style of voting, but in this case the candidates policy's are actually quite similar.

Yes, Obama supporters can be a little fervent. But the same can be said about Hillary. Or you wouldn't have this mess going on the DU right now.

As for Bill Clinton being racist, I don't think that is true. His main mistake in SC was to compare Obama's victory to that of failed presidential build of a previous black candidate. Now if he was color blind maybe he should have compared it to that of a failed white presidential nominee who didn't get SC.
The level of shit storm that arrived was not appropriate, but Mr. Clinton should have apologized for any implication then directly referred to a different campaign that failed to attempt to link to Obama maybe Dean's.

Looking at the hate filled spittle thrown between both sides, I tend to think that the Clinton group has done more of the unflattering attacks. But sometimes that can be hard to notice because the disparity in the groups reactions tend to make it that Obama's group handles them better than clinton handles hers. *not talking about online, where Obamania is sometimes frothing*

I also hate the idea of if you don't vote it is wasted, but in some ways it is true. Here is my statement, as a survivor of 8 years of bush..

IF YOU DON"T VOTE AND MCCAIN GETS THE NOMINATION. I AM AT LEAST PARTIALLY BLAMING YOU!!!!!!!!

[beachmom]

278. I guess you didn't see this one by a Clinton supporter:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x5344724#5344945

The truth is this board is set up to highlight the jerks ... from both sides. And the Obama campaign has had a far more civil tone than the Hillary campaign. I don't recall Obama ever going to superdelegates and whispering "Monica Lewinsky" or vowing that he would throw the kitchen sink at Hillary. You need to get all the facts before going after some overzealous supporters on a message board.

[ProSense]

293. How the hell did such a BS OP get 59 recs? n/t

[Perky]

281. Why in the world would you not vote for or against a candidate or not vote at all

based on that that candidates supporters say about the other candidates?

It is at once intellectually lazy and intellectually honest.


Grow up and crawl out of the bligging cave every so often.... it would do the party, the nation, and your own self awareness a world of good.

[Tafiti]

282. Waaah! Waaah! Waaaaaaaaahhhhhh!

So, when are Clinton supporters going to grow the fuck up and refuse to be Republican enablers? That's what I wanna know. Because if McCain ascends to the Presidency on account of Clinton supporters abstaining from voting in the GE, then 4 more years of Republican rule over this country belongs on your conscience, and that's not hyperbole. (Note that this has nothing to do with anti-Clinton-ness. The same goes for Obama supporters if Clinton miraculously became the nominee. But since Obama has it all but locked up, I'm directing this at you and your fellow Clinton supporters with the mental and emotional capacity of an 8-year-old.)

This is pure bullshit, and you and others like you ( :thumbsdown: :thumbsdown: ) should be ashamed of yourself. Again, grow the fuck up.

[LostinVA]

283. Nice, thoughtful post -- and very similar to what I feel and think

I'm very sorry so many people on here just gave you a kneejerk reaction -- DeepModemMom (always a very classy lady) being one of the few who are thoughtful and understanding.

I, too, am thinking of leaving the box empty, writing in HRC, or voting for either the Socialist or GP candidate. I never cared for Senator Obama, but the McClurkin Incident made me sit up and really examine him, and things since then have pushed me over the edge. And, the attacks of some of his "supporters" on here have been very scary and disturbing, including having me called (many times) a racist, a troll, a fucking bitch, a c**t, uneducated, a fucking ignorant white person, etc. It's a vitriol and rabid attack style against Dems and DUers that I've only ever seen on one other internet site.

Because of this primary season, I don't know if I can ever again vote for a Dem in certain Federal offices.

[TomBall Democrat]

522. Profanity and thoughtfulness

Sort of like roses amongst the sewage pond.



Amazing contradictions found in the HRC group.

:nopity:

[IsItJustMe]

dup

[IsItJustMe]

284. I feel the same way about Hillary. At least Obama never endoursed McCain. Hillary, McCain, not

much difference.

[FlaGranny]

288. Sigh! I remember about a year ago

when this site was absolutely full of threads about how lucky we are to have such excellent Democratic candidates. Face it EVERYONE. These 2 remaining candidates would BOTH make excellent presidents when compared to the alternative. I'll vote for either one of them, but I'm supporting Obama.

I started supporting him about the time that Clinton's campaign started to annoy me, for all the reasons others have stated. Up until then I was torn between the two and leaning toward Clinton, because Obama was more of an unknown element. I've always believed a woman president would be better. I've always felt that the entire world should be run by women. Men have really messed it up so far with their wars and greed.

As evidenced by her campaign, though, I don't feel that Clinton has the same ability as Obama to get along, compromise, and get things done. Also, I don't like one bit some of the Clintons' "associates." Both candidates "exaggerate" - but Clinton seems to do far more of it and then somehow it gets twisted around to be Obama's fault. No doubt, this is her campaign managers, but she is going along with it. I have the distinct impression that she is not controlling her own campaign the way Obama is, and is "taking too much bad advice."

Obama is better for the party as a whole because he is inspiring young people to get involved in the process. This "old lady" believes that we need the vision of the younger generation to really have any hope of progressing in this country. The old guard is not cutting it.

And - for those too young to remember - Kennedy and Johnson absolutely hated one another. Johnson, especially, made some pretty hateful remarks against Kennedy during the primary and Kennedy wound up choosing Johnson as VP to "heal" the party. This is no worse than it was then. This too shall pass.

P.S. Amelia - this site didn't exist in 2000. I think you meant 2001.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

290. K & R. Amelia. When I read your post and then responses such as

"Fuck Hillary" and "Her supporters are racist liars, who needs them", it epitomizes the divide we're experiencing.

Both candidates are better than McCain, and I don't understand the relentless attacks on those of us who are supporting Sen. Clinton for a variety of reasons. To read some of the responses here, we support her because we are racist liars and/or stupid, and/or not worth the effort of demonstrating civility and respect.

BTW, to those who support Sen. Obama and responded in a measured and compassionate manner to the OP, I extend my deepest gratitude.

If Sen. Obama and his supporters truly feel that the large numbers of those Democrats who support and vote for and work for Sen. Clinton are useless and without value to him/them, I'm not sure how the divide will be bridged.

[SeaLyons]

292. K&R

:kick:

[JNelson6563]

295. Yes, I'm sure the shit flinging moneky wars on DU

are completely shaping the real world election.

Hard to believe your claim as a casual observer and rare participant over the past 7.5 years if you believe what you just wrote. I should think one as little involved and invested in DU as you would realize how very little the antics here resemble the real world. That or I am in the most mature and politically sophisticated region of the county (not likely).

Julie--who ain't buyin' this pantload.

[amb123]

296. Hillary thinks, votes and campaigns like a Republican.

That's why I support the DEMOCRATIC CANDIDATE, Barack Obama. Not because she's a woman.

[dionysus]

297. thanks for your concerns....

[dogday]

298. I have seen the animosity come from both camps

And neither of it good... Ask me if I care for either candidate after witnessing the spectacle on this board... I will just wait out the slug fest, and wait for my party to appoint the nominee, and that is who I will vote for... Both camps are totally responsible for lies, insults, mean and vicious attacks upon each other.. A real freaking shame.....

[saltpoint]

303. The Clintons give as good as they get. They are a rough-hewn bunch when

they want to be. Which is quite often, in fact.

Your post is way the hell off.

[wrando]

305. getting closer

I feel the same way, it's bad enough the msm smears Hillary, but other Dems? Or are they Dems?

I'm getting closer to that blank box as you describe, but I will still vote Dem for my local people.

Bill from ct

[Tarheel_Dem]

358. omg, another sleeper?

I see a pattern developing with the low posters from 2001? Where have you guys been meeting since then? And do you only show up here to bash the "presumptive nominee" every four years? Very curious indeed.
:shrug:

[wrando]

441. bashing?

get a grip

I've been into politics and civil rights back to the 60's
I've buried enough of my friends, and most of them by far, were suicides, this war could be worse.
Some of these posters think they can justify their inaction just by voting for a black man,it's not that easy, many have done much more.

bill from ct

[marshall]

307. Hillary has shit all over us--excuse us if we stink!

It's a choice she made and now she has to live with the consequences.

[rodeodance]

461. "BO has shit all over us--excuse us if we stink!"

you are mean-spirted and i can be also

[shagsak]

583. ok.. thats it...

That post was the last straw, im voting McCain.

j/k GOBAMA!!

[rniel]

308. ok

Now you can go tune back into rush, the commercial break is almost over.

[olkaz]

311. You're a waste of space.

Congratulations, you're SO deluded that you'd let the actions of a MESSAGE BOARD dictate whether you help get the troops out of Iraq.

Pick up your sign at the front desk on your way out.

[Wash. state Desk Jet]

345. Here,s one for ya!

Being a old democrate ,hell old as the hills you might say, but ah, there is the thing about religious ear banging and it,s overall efects on body and soul one being scientificly proven to exist the other not.And given all the crap I see from the younger sector on here I think I,ll just pitch some my own self because I can and I really don,t give a hoot where you take it.
You do get the point here, I said old democrate here.Not as old as Kerry or Kennedy but old just the same.

Now ah, this Wright guy, that preacher fellow.X marine you say , he ah, likes the shock um tactic ,isn,t that so? Than he ah, no dought makes some type of point threw expression than ah say,s something to cool the tone or tone it down ,parise God , or thankyou Jesus. Is that rightly so you all rekon?

Bring all those agressions down deep to the surface for identification reasoning on the count of you might not realize how much you are carrying is that about right? You ah, might call that theraputic in a way?
I read the part about 90 per cent of his sermons being within the body of Christ ,with reguards to believers beliefs now mind ya, but ah ,he as it seems also has a bit of a psychologist in em, is that about rightly so?

Now ah, this god damn thing of a sort ,what is still press worthy these days reguarding this Wright the preacher-ear banger.
Lets go in reference to Obama,s wife ,s statement about being proud or her country, this country for the first time in her life.

Now let,s move back just a bit to a earler statement made by Michalle Obama reguarding the candidate. Now here is what you might call impressive, at least I thought so, ofcourse I am old as the hills ,so it don,t matter. She said the candidate is not perfect, he will stumble along the way and make mistakes, he,s just human same as anybody.

But later she made the shocking statement that for the first time in her life she is proud of her country ,this country. So, us old democrates are saying,what in the hell was that.Do you understand me? What in the hell was that?

Just what the hell that was and is, is the side effects of the wrong ways about Wright.
You know what I,am talking about? The deprogramming thing. The brain washed thing.Raises just a little bit of flag you might say.You know that x Marnine in em pushing his own envelope just far too far.
The thing of it is that little flag it raised ,the psychological thing about is ear marked and banging around the greater populas. It is loud and very unclear.

Understand this, we are old as the hills and we are here to stay.And this particular point is also here to stay.

[Marnieworld]

503. Is English your first language?

Or were you attempting some dialect? Really curious.

[lumberjack_jeff]

432. What do they teach in college?

Your exclusivity about whom you'll allow in your "movement" is what will lose us this election. Stop it.

[blm]

314. It's YOUR decision to reward those who protected BushInc the most as they undermined Dems in 2000

and 2004.

That's the actual bottom line to YOUR post.

[FightTheRight89]

317. Great logic.

Don't vote for a candidate because of his supporters. Solid thinking, I have to say.

[glowing]

318. I feel very similar.. I'll cave and vote for him in the GE if that's what I have to do,

but you are correct, they didn't have to go this far. AND I have the same sentiments, I can't watch Obama speak either.. I've tuned him out like I have Bush and that's sad. Obama is a terrific speaker. I think his inability to reign in this uncontrolled attack by his supporters speaks largely about his inability or ineffectiveness of actually leading. I've tried for months to ask for it to be toned down. I didn't think there was any reason to continue the attack against Clinton with such venom and disregard for her many achievments. I think the rabid craze of his supporters has re-surged Clinton's popularity. Mainly because she seems to be the only adult left at the table.

[Zambero]

319. Hillary's vote enabled the Iraq War. It's been 5 years now.

That is issue #1. I haven't had any need to look beyond that fact, and Obama has my full support. Clinton is an adult and presumably her supporters are as well. If they can't take the heat of a major campaign, they should take Harry Truman's advice and avoid the kitchen. Having said that, Hillary would have my full support come November is she somehow wins the nomination despite currently unfavorable odds. The future of this country and the world is much bigger than lamenting the fact that my first choice of candidates did not win, and despite my reservations over Hillary's voting record I could never live with the fact that McCain (aka Bush III) managed to win through any acts of omission or commission on my part. The "Clinton or nobody" (or for that matter, "Obama or nobody") mentality does not cut it, except in the eyes of the Republicans who would love to assure a protracted schism in our ranks. There's far too much at stake to let emotion overpower reason.

[AnarchoFreeThinker]

322. April Fool's Day Redux

[pjt7]

326. You vote for the candidate &

the people they will bring in to the Federal Gov't. Certainly, not the cheering crowds on a campaign run. Come 'on.

For me, Obama is the superior choice.

[AnarchoFreeThinker]

346. clink

[bluedog]

325. kick ass awesome post!

you speak for many of us.......:thumbsup:

[pokercat999]

327. From the last line of the 4th paragraph.

"what happened to you?"

What happened to me was Hillary's votes in the Senate. She voted with rethugs so she could look "strong" on National Defense and less liberal on social issues. She has become a DINO. If I want a rethug I'll vote for a real one, not this wanna be. My opinion has nothing to do with Obama except that he is the only alternative left after Edwards withdrew.

[erebusman]

329. I also am a long time lurker

I started lurking at DU around the 2000 election also. Ive had to re-create my ID a couple of times I post so infrequently it must have auto-removed at least once.

However being neither a Senator Clinton nor Senator Obama "supporter" I find the vitriol on both sides fairly equal. So I don't share your interesting "every thing is one sided" view.

I will say this though; vote; dont vote; do what you want. But remember this --- you (i mean the people) will get exactly what you deserve if you do/don't vote and/or do/dont stand up and fight the power of Diebold, VoteCaging, and other tactics being used.

They want you to not vote; because it actually still matters. The vitriol is here to disenfranchise you. Apparently you've decided that works for you in the highest office in the land.

my my... now thats interesting.

peace

[wrando]

341. equal?

If you call the smears equal then you are misrepresenting yourself.

You think votes count, tell that to the people of Florida and Michigan.

Obama doesn't like the idea of their votes counting, not now anyway, and he will pay the price for that if he's nominated

Bill from ct

[erebusman]

549. i said equal vitriol

hi bill,

I said equal vitriol. Vitriol could include smears, but would not be limited to it. I think being a supporter of one would immediately make the smears against your candidate seem much more prevalent.

As I am not a "supporter" of either Senator Clinton or Senator Obama I have not noticed smears being more prevalent on either side. They seem to be many, and daily in nature on both sides, most especially from the "supporters" which is what the author of this thread expressed concern about.

At this point the only thing I support is "change" which means any one but Bush or McCain (aka bush part 3) ; because my first, second, and third tier candidates didn't make it this far.

I believe my vote counts, because RepliCANT's are constantly trying to disenfranchise people.

People of Florida and Michigan have every right to be pissed off as hell at their local representatives for screwing them over, and should be up in arms against their local representatives for breaking the rules and screwing them over. I suggest they start an aggressive campaign to remove their idiots from office and get some better idiots to represent them. Preferably idiots who know how to read and listen to warnings that their constituents are about to be disenfranchised if they continue on the current path of holding primary's that are against the party rules.

They could and should also start local fundraisers to hold primaries that are within the boundaries of the party rules since their representatives chose to hold ones that are illegal. Grass roots movements are often the most powerful ones. Hell, if an actual concerted effort arises to hold another primary in either or both of these states - even though I live in neither one - I will donate money to both to help those citizens hold a legal primary so their right to help influence who their parties candidate will be in the general election can be realized.

peace

[wrando]

554. on that note count me in

[harun]

330. A few problems

Hillary continues to say she is going to work for Universal Health Care. This is a lie, she is working for people to all have health insurance which doesn't guarantee anyone care, simply guarantees profits for the insurers.

I liked both Hillary and Obama. Once Hillary, Bill and the rest of her staff starting dropping sound bites about how Barack is only doing well because he is black they deserved all the hostility they got (and will continue to get). Obama's people didn't say she is only doing well because she is a woman, big difference.

[PoliticalAmazon]

331. The Clintons have well earned what they are getting...

They have used the worst Bush/Rovian campaign tactics, defiling the reputation of Democrats. They have repeatedly turned against the Obama supporters, from race-baiting to the latest outrage: saying that Obama supporters want Hillary to withdraw from the race because Obama supporters don't want Americans to vote!

Is that not exactly the kind of hate-spin Bush Jr would do? It is on the level of Bush's accusing Americans against the war as being "freedom-haters."

Note that Hillary doesn't criticize the superdelegates and analysts who are saying she should leave the race.

No, it's only Obama supporters.

So, please, spare me the latest "poor Hillary" schpiel. She has run her campaign by acting despicable. SHE has turned Obama supporters against her and her campaign, and, by extension, her supporters.

Finally, how can you support such a vile and filthy candidate? Did you support Bush Jr when he used those Rovian tactics? Most Democrats loathed those tactics. So why is it now okay for Hillary Clinton to use them?

[parkeradison]

332. Regarding "don't you understand what you've done"

I agree that sometimes it gets too nasty on the DU, but don't take it personally. People are really into this election, and sometimes they get overzealous. Hopefully things will soon calm down a little.

[RaleighNCDUer]

478. Hey! Watch yourself!

Calm rationality is NOT appreciated around here!


(And welcome to DU)

[xynthee]

333. I can't believe how many people are missing the point!

It's actually really simple: There are lots of people who support Hillary and we need their votes in the GE if Obama wins the nomination (and vice versa). Why risk alienating even a single voter?

I'm sure Obama would be completely disgusted by the hatefulness displayed here. I know I am! I expected a few "But Hillary started it"s, but WOW! I never expected the majority of the replies to be so petty and hostile. This is truly disappointing!

I'm more worried than ever now about our chances in the GE!

I can hardly blame someone who sits out in the GE after witnessing the insults in this thread. After all, the average Amurkin voter thinks McCain is a "maverick" and a "moderate" and won't bother to do any research into his voting record and history. I also doubt anyone will be sufficiently inspired by either of our candidates to work toward electing him/her if this thread is even remotely representative of our candidates' supporters in the real world.

Can we please focus all this energy on beating McShitforbrains? This election is too important for us to be sabotaging it ourselves; we need to work TOGETHER!!

[ProSense]

352. The point of the post is BS

I heard the reports that the Obama campaign used the race card against Bill Clinton in S.C. I couldn't believe it! Bill Clinton, a racist? That has to be the dumbest thing I ever heard.

Believe what you want, but don't lump everyone together and denounce them for criticizing the Clintons for their lies, distortion and bullshit. Also, where is the collective call that Bill Clinton is a racist?

Why on earth are some people taking criticism of Hillary for her tactics, including the lies, as personal attacks on them?

Criticism of Hillary is to be avoided in order to not hurt your feelings? Do you think Hillary's distortions (in press releases, on TV, etc.) should go unanswered, not be discussed, simply ignored?

This kind of OP is simply ludicrous.

From your comment:

I'm more worried than ever now about our chances in the GE!

Are the Clintons concerned about that as they continue, despite recent comments to the contrary, to hype McCain and smear Obama?


the Clinton moment

[izzybeans]

336. yeah I know, we've really done it now. Supporting the next president and all.

how much worse can it get?

[L0oniX]

337. Chris Crocker (D) or anyone could beat McPain in the GE.

There are far more Dems going to vote than the repukes this year.

[butterfly77]

338. Do you understand that ...

Hillary is not entitled to the presidency just because she is a woman, which I hear all of you supporters of her saying. Just because you thought she would be the nominee doesn't mean she has to be the one. Yes in the beginning (I was a hillary supporter) I didn't think that the jesse jackson comment was racism but, after that they did start using things to insinuate that he can't win because he is black but the main thing that got me was Geraldine ferraro and the bullshit she said about Obama was winning because he was black and Bill saying how great McCain is and talking about Obama as though he wasn't worthy but McCain and Hillary were, so after that episode in Georgia the clintons did start it and kept it up and are piling it on now.

There are many other things that made me switch candidates. After watching the Clintons desperation I began to listen to what Obama was saying and how he was runnin g his campaign and I came to the conclusion that Hillary isn't the one, she is a republiCON and I will not be voting for her,she has shown her true colors.

[pipi_k]

340. Yeah, this makes a lot of sense

I can't vote for a Republican, but I will leave the box beside the president blank or write in another candidates name, and I will vote a straight Democratic ticket the rest of the way on it, but I will not vote for Obama and you have yourselves to thank for that.

Trust me when I say that there are many, many people who feel the same way I do and many of them will vote for McCain, or will do what I plan to do.
===========================

What sort of person blames a candidate's SUPPORTERS for MAKING him or her vote against that candidate?

Good lord, I don't like insulting people, but this piece of "logic" doesn't even make sense to my four year old grandson.

OK, act like a little baby, then.

Hillary's supporters have been just as nasty. I don't like her, personally...but IF she's the candidate of choice, I WILL vote for her. Better to see a Democrat win than to shrug off the responsibility and then blame someone else if/when the other party takes the election because a bunch of people want to act like spoiled brats.

[Tarc]

342. I'm surprised this hasn't been locked yet, given GD-P's general atmosphere

I agree with every single thing you said, but as Team Obama has a chokehold on this forum, the Obama-critical topics either get locked because they stir up some much flame-baiting shit in it, or they purposefully stay away to try to force it off the front page of GD-P.

So, congrats on writing so eloquently that neither tactic could work this time. Good job. :)

[SoonerPride]

343. You need a thicker skin, dear.

Obama has suffered more malicious smears and lies abotu him than Hillary and you know what, he keeps on smiling and winning because he knows he is right.

If you know you are right you can suffer the fools who disparage you.

See, you and the other Clinton die-hards can't suffer the criticism because deep down you know THEY are right and Clinton is wrong.

The psychology of your despair is telling in that you have to maintain an untenable poistion in support of a fatally flawed candidate.

Time to move on.

[redqueen]

344. Pathetic.

[Lannigan]

347. K&R

Thanks for the post. You said it all great.

:kick:

[Marnieworld]

348. First, DU started in 2001

But as such a long time member I'm sure you know that. :eyes:

Second- you list not one attack beyond this alleged "race card" on the Clintons but speak in general terms. The race card was played by the CLintons when dismised SC results as nothing because another Black and subsequent losing candidate had won there before. No one put the words in his mouth and there is no other similarity between Obama and Jesse Jackson other than race. Well they're both excellent speakers but that could not have been his point since he is as well.

You have all of the assumptions about what progressive websites should say and do but they don't seem to be grounded in reality. Go start one yourself that never asks for money or ever criticizes anyone or does "equally" as if every point of view, reality always has a balance.

One more thing I'm pretty sure that if you leave a choice blank on the ballot is discounts the entire ballot. I may be wrong and I only point this out because I do not want the other Democrats on the ticket to be affected by these actions.

[amelia]

592. No leaving a blank space on the ballot doesn't negate it.

[Maureen1322]

349. I am new here

and I've been surprised by the angry back and forth between Hillary and Obama supporters. I support Hillary, but there is no way I will not vote Democrat in November. Electing a Democrat is just more important to me than anything I've read on this website.

[redqueen]

375. Welcome to DU, Maureen1322!

:hi:

[lumberjack_jeff]

380. Well said, and welcome to DU. n/t

[MethuenProgressive]

350. Thank you for you most excellent post!

You're very brave to have posted it during mob rule!

[kwyjibo]

351. I think that everybody around here is a bit disgusted by one thing or another

involving this primary season. It's been going on for so long, the candidates announced their plans way too soon, and I think we're all just sick of it and ready to move on. Unfortunately, we can't move on until we're united. And we're all too pissed off at each other to find a compromise.

It's terrible that some people have been so hurt by the battle that they feel like giving up altogether. I really hope that there is time to heal before November, and everyone has the chance to think of the greater good before it's too late.

[beezlebum]

353. oh noes a "shame on you barack obama supporterz1" tread

these threadz make me giggle nowadays.

makes me think of my favorite aunt's ex-boyfriend from high school- when she broke up with him because he cheated on her, and then confided in her dearest friends, who then chided and snubbed and refused to be friends with him let alone date him for his betraying, deceitful, unfaithful ways, he and a couple of his buddies pathetically ran up and down the street screaming "(my aunt's first middle and last name) PISSED ME OFF! I WON'T EVER DATE HER OR ANY OF HER FRIENDS AGAIN!!! DON'T DATE ______ _______ ________!!!"

i almost felt sorry for him. but then, i was only 8 years old at the time.:shrug:

[Pappy]

356. "Yellow Dogs" are not welcome anymore in the Democratic Party

In case you haven't heard, the Democrats are Progressives, not Conservatives. There is a party for you and your war loving Hillary and thats called the Republican party, so maybe you should switch.

[lumberjack_jeff]

378. Fuck you. Really.

This isn't a club for your personal entertainment. It is a campaign with the fate of our children in the balance. Grow the fuck up. Don't come to DU you and try to convince people to vote for republicans, you freeloading troll.

[Pappy]

511. Yeh like I really want conservatives in the Democratic Party

This person is telling us that they are for Hillary, who was for the war, and are a Conservative. You might want to actually read the articles before you post. You do know what a "Yellow Dog" don't you? They are the people of the Democratic Party which represent the "Old South" and I had thought we had purged all those people from party, guess I was wrong.

[Name removed]

530. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[amelia]

596. Yellow dog means that you always vote a straight Democratic

ticket, and that you could put a yellow dog at the top and we would still vote for it. I live in a state where we can still punch one time for the Democratic party or the Repug party.

[Pappy]

686. Sorry I got that confused with Blue Dog

[Major Hogwash]

357. Yeah, we understand - we saved this country from another fucked up Clinton admin.

It's a bitter pill for you to have to swallow, but that's the way it is.

[waiting for hope]

360. There have been a few times I

could have sworn I was at Free Republic when seeing some of the threads directed at Clinton, and none were apologetic. It's disgusting and I understand how you feel.

[Wash. state Desk Jet]

399. Major hogwash

You didn,t save this country from anything ,that,s major bull shit and you know it.
And if you don,t know it you really must get to know it.

You can spin it every which way and it still don,t mean noth,en

Bill Clinton brought a lot of democrates over to the party at a time when the republicans were building up strength.

I would always be glad to give you all a ride ,but your opinion don,t count for much.

And I,ll lissen to what your candidate has to say because I,am a democrate and a free thinking citizen ,a independent free thinking citizen. That,s what it,s all about major hogwash not major bull shit.

Sometines it,s FTN other times it,s USN
And I reserve that right always.

[waiting for hope]

425. WTF?

You make no sense at all.

[Zorra]

362. We want Al. We want Al. We want Al. We want Al. We want Al.

Did I mention we want Al?

Because now we need Al.

It is ironic that the two remaining candidates, who have such similar platforms, have camps that are so bitterly divided that many of them will refuse to vote for the "opposition" candidate should that candidate be nominated.

Many, but not all, Obama and Clinton supporters are acting like ignorant, enraged losers from a bad episode of the Jerry Springer Show.

But don't take this out on the candidate; not voting for a candidate because some supporters of that candidate is like cutting off your nose to spite your face.

I'll vote for any Dem candidate that gets nominated, but I'm hoping that this candidate is neither Clinton nor Obama.

[SoonerPride]

369. I wrote to Mr. Gore last summer. He wrote back saying he wasn't going to run.

He's not interested.

Period.

[rodbailey]

512. Now here's someone

making real sense. With the anger between the two camps, why not a compromise/peace nominee. It's been talked about in Time, Newsweek, on CNN and MSNBC and other places. What a great idea. Slide on over to the Al Gore '08 Forum at DU and join us in trying to see if there's a possibility to get Al into the picture.

[Zorra]

363. We want Al. We want Al. We want Al. We want Al. We want Al.

Did I mention we want Al?

Because now we need Al.

It is ironic that the two remaining candidates, who have such similar platforms, have camps that are so bitterly divided that many of them will refuse to vote for the "opposition" candidate should that candidate be nominated.

Many, but not all, Obama and Clinton supporters are acting like ignorant, enraged losers from a bad episode of the Jerry Springer Show.

But don't take this out on the candidate; not voting for a candidate because some supporters of that candidate is like cutting off your nose to spite your face.

I'll vote for any Dem candidate that gets nominated, but I'm hoping that this candidate is neither Clinton nor Obama.

[Skip Intro]

364. AMEN! You said it. I agree 1000%. Will not vote for Obama either. For the same reasons.

Wow, I have wanted to write a similar post for so long but could not find the words. You did. And you are right. There are many who feel the same way.

And yes, by far the reason is the hatred and venom spewed here and elsewhere by so-called proponents of hope and change and a different kind of politics.

And it is done. No undoing it.

[lumberjack_jeff]

365. In the interest of equal time

I agree with everything you say, until I get to the end.

My distaste for the tactics used by Obama's supporters does not change the fundamental reality. If Obama is the nominee, he's better than McCain. Failing to vote is a vote for the person you preferred least.

I won't recommend any post in which the poster indicates that they won't vote for the nominee - no matter how much I might otherwise agree.

[Zorra]

367. We want Al. We want Al. We want Al. We want Al. We want Al.

Did I mention we want Al?

Because now we need Al.

It is ironic that the two remaining candidates, who have such similar platforms, have camps that are so bitterly divided that many of them will refuse to vote for the "opposition" candidate should that candidate be nominated.

Many, but not all, Obama and Clinton supporters are acting like ignorant, enraged losers from a bad episode of the Jerry Springer Show.

But please don't take this out on the candidate or the Democratic party; not voting for a candidate simply because some supporters of that candidate are behaving like spoiled children is like cutting off your nose to spite your face.

I'll vote for any Dem candidate that gets nominated, but I'm hoping that this candidate is neither Clinton nor Obama.

Like Al Gore for instance.

[gaspee]

370. Ditto!

I agree with your post 100%

Though, I hope you have your flame-retardant undies on because you're going to get slammed by all the followers of our latest "uniter."

I've pretty much quit DU after it became freeper like in it's Clinton hatred. I used to be a DU addict and now I go days at a time without coming here.

Hopefully, I'll be completely free of my DU addiction soon. It can't be soon enough, though, given the level of anti-Clinton rhetoric here.

[SoonerPride]

381. Support the party's nominee.

and that ain't Clinton.

[Catherine Vincent]

372. My sentiments exactly.

I haven't read the thread yet but I'm sure there's lot of denial in it. Although, there are some Obama supporters that don't post as often....they're the classy ones that actually support their candidate instead of bashing the other democratic candidate. I applaud them.

[midnight]

382. What happened is a good question to start to ask?

"thanks to the fires of hell that the Clintons walked through as our Democratic leaders. Most of you were their friends and defenders then, what happened to you?" Yesterday, I was thinking about the Peace and Prosperity he gave us.

[SoonerPride]

386. I can answer that.

I voted for Clinton on Super Tuesday.

But now, it is clear, she cannot win without a super delegate coup overturning the will of the voters, and that isn't going to happen. So, she has lost.

Then I turned my support to the party nominee.

Clinton isn't the enemy, McCain is.

Though, to be fair, her conduct the last month has been deplorable. She has gotten to looking desperate, needy, and resorted to the worst kind of Rovian lies and smears. That lowered my opinion of her considerably.

[LilBitRad]

384. From another not so newbie to another

Though I haven't been here as long as you, I have been here a few years and much prefer reading to posting, I'd like to suggest that issues, not cult of personality or identity politics is the reason we're here.

I have been steadfast in refusing to identify which of the two remaining candidates I support on this board since JE dropped out because the vitriol is disconcerting at the very least and I will not get sucked into the mud.

I will only suggest that a vote not cast is a vote wasted, Whether you write in a name or vote for the nominee is not a concern to me on a personal level, just don't leave it blank.

[azmouse]

385. Honestly. I don't give a damn.

If you're willing to cut off your nose to spite your face I won't lift a finger.

Buh-bye.

[lumberjack_jeff]

403. That is apparent.

Please try to remember that your candidate is hoping to attract voters.

[azmouse]

404. If the OP or you or anyone wouldn't vote for a candidate

because of something posted here then there is nothing I'm going to be able to do or say to change their mind.

I'm sick and tired of these types of whining, look-at-me-I-need-attention posts.

I'll do my best to never post to them again, except to say how I just don't give a damn.

[lumberjack_jeff]

406. The reasons matter.

She's alienated from your candidate because of the behavior of his supporters.

All that you need to do attract voters to your candidate is to stop actively alienating them. It's the easiest GOTV effort possible.

[SoonerPride]

423. Well, Clinton herself says "VOTE FOR OBAMA" ,,,if he's the nominee

So, this cry and take my ball home routine is juvenile.

[lumberjack_jeff]

430. The logical disconnects are overwhelming

Yes. Hillary has made it clear that she will support the nominee, and expects her supporters to do the same. Yet every day I read:

1) Being a democrat is all about being a progressive. If you don't support (insert pet cause here) you shouldn't be a democrat. Go vote for McCain, you loser! (or "good riddance" or "See Ya!")
2) "The Clinton campaign has made it clear that they prefer a McCain presidency to Obama".
3) "Clinton is a lying bitch" followed closely by "we're not sexists" and "their core constituency are blue collar folks=closet racists".

And despite the steady diet of this irrational hate, Clinton supporters (or at least the morally suitable ones) are supposed to vote for Obama.

I'm reminded of Mahatma Ghandi:

"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."

[jgraz]

388. I have to ask: in what universe does an OP like this rate 76 recs?

To paraphrase: "Obama supporters are mean, so I'm going to help put another Republican in the White House." :banghead:

[lumberjack_jeff]

392. I have seen Obama posts get a similar treatment of 30+ recs.

We all need to recognize the harm that is coming from being assholes. It is escalating.

[jgraz]

400. Well, I agree on the asshole thing

I've seen posts here that I never thought I'd see on a Democratic site.

[Tarheel_Dem]

401. you must have missed the thread this past weekend that got locked...

but a very good DU'er with very good sleuthing skills told us that this was in the planning at the site that shall not be named. They plan to fill up the front page with shit like this. They all pounce & keep each other's post recommended & kicked to the top.

Very sinister plot, but looks like they've been quite effective while plotting against DU at their other members only site. Skinner's even had to employ legal counsel for one of those nuts.

[SaveOurDemocracy]

523. Get your facts straight ...

before you start running off at the fingers. Unless you enjoy looking like a fool. :silly:

[Tarheel_Dem]

576. nope. you and your cohorts have that title all sewn up...

won't they miss you over at your other site?

[mmonk]

389. I'm tired of hearing what we've done.

It's all bullcrap. Obama hasn't run the kitchen sink negative campaign. I WILL NOT STAND ACCUSED. I doubt anyone else will either. No one or no family owns this party. If they do, let me know now so I can leave.

[Skwmom]

390. Typical Clinton MO/ blame others for what they themselves have done

Anytime Clinton gets nailed for her gutter politics, lies, and distortions you can bet on seeing an "Obama supporters should get of the web and help their candidate on the ground." We'd hate for the media who reads these blogs, party insiders, etc. to know how we really feel about the Clintons.

Now it's the "can't you see what you've done" manipulation. It is the CLINTON CAMP who is dividing the party. They want Obama to lose, they just don't want to be held responsible for it.

[greguganus]

391. LET IT SINK!! N/T

[Jakes Progress]

505. Gosh yes. You don't want

to hear truth. Let it sink. Reading other opinions might just lead to thinking.

[Jakes Progress]

398. They don't get it because

they don't care. I was like you in a way. I liked Edwards but was caught up in the Obama fervor last fall. I enjoyed his ideas about being independent and of course i liked his speeches. As I got involved in the political sites and began reading deeper into the policies and programs, I became less enchanted. My main concern was is bipartisanship. In Washington, bipartisanship is a code word for giving the neocons whatever they want. We compromise; they stonewall and vote as a block.


My real disillusion came with the haters and the idolators. In my discussions with my friends who are also ardent, yellow-dog democrats, I encountered less of this. They were hoping he could be the one to get rid of Bush and they questioned Hillary's electability. But as the campaign went on the language changed. As MSM began piling on, the Obama supporters took that as license for slime. They talk about Bill's penis, about Hillary's clothes. They brought up all the old crap from the republican smears - Hillary murdered people - She's a lesbian - She stole from the government. They attacked progressives of long standing with impeccable liberal credentials just because they disagreed with them. They even went after Hillary's daughter with the kind of low life, Hooters' patron attacks that no decent person would contemplate.


You hit it right when you pointed out that most of the complaints or "attacks" against Barack have been political in nature: He lacks experience - He is not electable - He hasn't really done any heavy lifting for the causes he champions. These are normal and meaningful questions about a candidate. Just as questioning Hillary's electability or her vote on the war powers act would be. But the Obama supporters continue with bile about her being a monster or how she will do anything to get elected or she is working for karl rove. They have no sense of what matters. It is all personality. They see questioning Obama's experience as the same thing as accusing Hillary of murder.


Well the nastier they got (while claiming that she was the nasty one and they were purer than glacier water) the more I supported Hillary. She's not my favorite candidate among the people who could have run, but now that it is down to two, she is leagues ahead of Obama when it comes to being able to do the job. I'm afraid that now, neither one is electable.


But i have voted straight Democrat for the last forty years and had planned to do so again. Then we had the Texas County primary conventions. I can't speak for all two thousand that were at my meeting, but for the several hundred nearest me, I witnessed calm enthusiasm and courteous behavior from every single Clinton delegate. With the exception of three or four Obama delegates who seemed embarrassed by their colleagues, the entire Barack contingent of delegates were uninformed, disruptive, and appallingly rude. They called Hillary obscene names. They called us names. They argued with everyone. When the organizers who were trying to get things to work in this chaos suggested anything to help, the Barack delegates attacked them, suspicious that everyone was out to get them, that this was all a trick to fool them. Actually, it would have been very easy to fool them. They seemed be wrong on every procedure even though we had easy access to copies of the state party rules for the convention. In general, they were surly and arrogant and didn't want to work with anyone.


So, I too was planning on voting for whoever we selected as the candidate. I'm still considering, but whenever I remember the red-faced snots I just spent last Saturday enduring, I waiver. Why would I want to join this club of misfits. That is the crux of the problem now. Obama looks poised to get the nomination, but his supporters have followed a scorched earth campaign that willfully seeks to exclude any dissent or rational thought. Of course, they claim that they are the victims, but they are only victims of their own. It seems Barack may win the battle but lose the war. And he seems helpless to get his supporters to behave the way he says they should. God help us all.

[amelia]

599. I think we came to the same conclusion the same way as for

what candidate to vote for. I don't know if I could have sat there and listened to what you did. Congratulations for sticking it out!

[Baby Snooks]

409. Truth is truth...

And the truth about the Clintons is finally being told and if you don't like the truth, that's too bad. It's still the truth.

[nonconformist]

410. K & R! Great post! nt

[easy_b94]

411. OK...well...look

Do you finally understand what you've done? You were so "motivated" by your candidate, that you pushed him INTO A BETTER chance of winning the GE if he wins the primary.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

412. For a while, Obama's supporters actually had me disliking Barack Obama

And that's a pretty hard thing to do, because in the end he is a very likeable and charismatic candidate who will most likely do a great job as chief executive.

I WILL be voting for Barack Obama should he be the nominee in November. I look forward to the good he can do for the country as President.

But his campaign will not see a dime from me in campaign donations, nor will I spend one minute volunteering for his campaign. As a Florida resident, the antics of his supporters in actively trying to disenfranchise my vote has all but killed the enthusiasm I would have had for the Obama campaign.

[SoonerPride]

414. You know, that is patently false. Read Madflrodians blog. You're wrong.

Wrong

[Tommy_Carcetti]

424. I'm sorry, but it's been Obama's supporters who've been dead set against seating the delegates

All throughout this board and throughout the news. The ends justifies the means, and the ends here favor Obama. Maybe if the shoe were on the other foot, Clinton's folks would be arguing the same thing. But that's not the reality of the situation.

By the way, I voted for neither Obama nor Clinton (rather John Edwards), but I still want my vote to count for something. And my priorities place my right to vote higher than some archaic DNC rule.

[SoonerPride]

428. You really think Florida should count as is?

really.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

434. Yes it should.

The polls were open. I voted. Why should I be punished for that?

[SoonerPride]

440. Florida will be seated. After Cliinton drops out.

Don't worry.

[lumberjack_jeff]

431. You tell him.

That jerk just said he'd vote for your candidate. We can't have that.

[Jakes Progress]

507. I think I have

read most of his rants. Followed most of his links. They don't make sense unless your mind is preset for the conclusion. He may be from Florida, but his endless repeats just don't show a real grasp of Florida politics or minority party politics at all. But if you already agree with him and have a closed mind to all other possibilities, I can see where they would be entertaining. MadF has a bug about the national party and doesn't allow for the facts as they were at the time. The way he spins it, it is a better attack on the party and, in his mind, on Clinton. What is he going to do when his candidate is the nominee for the Party? Still grumble is my guess.

[1monster]

560. Madfloridian has in many ways, and perhaps even in actual words, indicated that she dislikes.

Florida.

I'm a Florida resident of thirty-four years. I have seen it go from paradise to developers hell, but I still love my home. I've seen it go from almost total Democratic state to a Republican state (those thousands and thousands of new residents that moved here every day from the north in the eighties and nineties).

Madfloridian doesn't speak for me or for many of the Floridians that post on DU.

Madfloridian is very prolific and she always has the latest in what's happening. I certainly appreciate that.

What I don't appreciate is everyone thinking her opinions are the best and last word on a subject. She has her biases, which, to her credit, she openly admits.

I understand that there is a power struggle going on between the DNC and the DLC, but you don't use the voters as pawns. EVER.

[RaleighNCDUer]

485. Don't blame Obama for that fuckup.

Blame the DLC. They orchestrated it all, and they didn't back down when they had ample opportunity, nor did they even put up resistance to the FL legislature, which in itself would have preserved the right to seat FL delegates. THE DLC DISENFRANCHISED FLORIDA VOTERS.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

541. I'm not blaming Obama

As I said before, I like the man and think he'll be a fine president.

However, Obama's supporters are the ones who are now on a crusade that Florida's votes should not be counted, and coming from fellow Democrats, that's just pretty damn sad. You can throw around the blame game as to how we got where we got to all around, but the ends sought are all the same: they do not want Florida delegates to be seated.

[kwenu]

413. Your analysis doesn't meet the objectivity smell test but if you think that deciding who to vote for

should be based on what other people say as opposed to what the CANDIDATE says is an intelligent way to cast a ballot then that's your right. Practically speaking, your post smells like another "I've just come to the reality that my candidate doesn't have a snowballs chance in hell of being the party nominee so I'm taking my ball and going home." While I don't feel like that is a mature adult justification for not voting, again, it is your right. Just be honest about it.

[Sean Stuart]

416. This is a natural consequence of a prolonged campaign, which always gets nastier as time goes on

And the fact that there are more nasty comments directed toward Clinton than Obama on DU is the simple math that, last I saw, Obama supporters outnumber Clinton supporters on this website by 4 to 1.

Many Obama supporters feel the same way you do in reverse. We've seen our share of Obama-supporters-hate-women and Obama-supporters-hate-gays and a great deal of other nonsensical petty insults. And if you'd really been watching and paying attention as you claim, then you would've titled your post "Obama and Hillary supporters, Don't you understand what you've done?"

[johnlal]

419. The stakes are high, and the emotions are high

Not only is the leadership of our nation up for grabs in the upcoming election, but the very soul of the Democratic Party at stake. Many people would cast this race as a choice between two Democrats. What many people fail to realize is that there are two Democratic parties in this country. Hillary Clinton is the candidate of the DLC (republican lite). If you want to know more about how the DLC thinks, look at Joe Lieberman. By calling themselves NEW Democrats, they are pointing out that they differ from the rest of us Democrats.

If the 2006 election taught us anything, it is that it's not good enough just to be called a Democrat. We felt really good about our election. We changed the leadership in Congress. But who did we get? Do-nothing milquetoasts like Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid. Impeachment is off the table. We're still sending truckloads of money and lives into Iraq. The Republican minority is walking all over the Democratic majority.

This time, it's not enough to elect a Democrat. We have to elect the better one. A DLC Democrat won't be enough.

[krkaufman]

421. To be clear, if you leave the box blank, you may well be voting for a Republican

You're just abdicating your choice to the rest of the voters in your state.

As for your observations, I, too, was an Edwards supporter, with an indifference between Clinton and Obama ... until after Clinton's third place drubbing in Iowa and I saw the Clinton campaign begin to ramp-up the negativity -- beginning with Bill's distortion of Obama's Iraq war position -- and continue to escalate the dirt with each passing week of losses. To me, it is inarguable that the Clinton campaign has been the more negative and deceitful. Heck, they themselves advertised that they were going to throw the "kitchen sink" at Obama.

And people are turning against the Clintons, more and more as each day passes, because they see the airborne "kitchen sink" and the Clintons actively promoting the Republican candidate over the Democratic frontrunner and likely nominee. All other dirty politics and their "kitchen sink" aside, the promotion of the Republican candidate by any Democratic leader is over the line, and is the one unforgivable tactic. (And I choose "tactic" here, deliberately, because it's occurred too many times to say "act.") People are turning on the Clintons because their eyes are being opened to the fact that the Clintons' ambition overrides all other considerations. If people are beginning to sound "Right Wing", as you put it, it may be because those people are now on the opposite side of a campaign from the Clintons, and are experiencing for the first time the same negative tactics that the Clintons have employed against their Republican opponents for the last 30 years.

The one thing not affecting my choice of Democratic nominee is the supporters of either candidate. Petulantly decrying the behavior of the supporters of either candidate is pointless, since they're most likely not Samantha Power or Geraldine Ferraro -- that is, they're not involved with the campaigns in any formal manner. They're just citizen advocates, regular people with an opinion.

Do what you must. But Senate speeches and DU posts don't excuse casting the wrong vote.

[BlooInBloo]

422. Yet another white person blaming black people for "playing the race card"....

... Fuck all those who won't vote for the eventual Democratic nominee because people on the internet were mean.

[IowaGirl]

429. Thanks Amelia. You said something that needed to be said.

I don't really understand all the Hillary bashing but it does make it hard to consider voting for Obama in light of all the caustic remarks from his supporters. It's really sad because this election should have been a shoo-in for the Democratic candidate. Any attempt to bring up real differences in the candidates' positions is impossible because of the vitriol that spews forth when anything is perceived as not as favorable to their candidate. :yoiks:

[Bonobo]

436. Don't you have the ability to distinguish between reality and virtual reality? Weird...

[Wash. state Desk Jet]

446. To a point perhaps reguards kitchen sink

But the Kennedy intervention ,where upon the Kennedys came out for Obama in force. What brought that on is the fact that both camps had very early on run it down into the muck befor Edwards dropped out of the race. In South Carolina both Clintion and Obama came on as though Edwards wasn,t even there. Right from the start both Clinton and Obama stuck it in R for racing. And something just had to be done about that.If you disreguard the facts remaning there ,than you are missing the point.

If change is in the air is it real change?

I don,t care about common opinions because I hunt for facts.
Obama mania and all of what comes of it is not going to change how I think or will vote.Believers must believe in something, if it gets them involved,that,s a good thing.

And the fact that the two big democratic contenders ran it a muck is not good at all.
And if you don,t believe that, that,s ok too.
But,circumstances and events that will happen can or will be the defining factor of this change in the air if it exists.Which means they can both lose but that does not necessarialy mean the democratic party will lose. Obama and Clinton can actually zero each other out.There I think is the key to greater fears some may be experiencing although I would not think of that as a case sceaniro as a good thing.None the less it can happen and if it is ment to happen than that is what will have to be excepted.

And that is why a Gore draft is being kicked around.

Like the saying goes in baseball. It ain,t over until it,s over and anything can happen.
A good sporting approach to it would be helpful,I am sure.

I think it,s important to let it play out for as long as it takes.

[noobie2]

433. By your reasoning...

So despite the candidate, your vote is based upon the candidate's supporters? If I may make an analogy. If I judge Christ by his followers, would that be fair to Christ? I'm not the first to make that observation by the way?* Shouldn't Christ be judged on his own merits? With logic like that, it's no wonder why the democratic party has issues.


* "I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. They are so unlike your Christ." - Mahatma Gandhi

[nichomachus]

435. Here's how an uncommitted voter sees it

I haven't decided who I'm backing yet. I started out not knowing much about Obama and having good feelings toward Hillary.

My sentiments are definitely shifting to the Obama side.

Mostly from what I see, the criticisms against Hillary are about her public stances, her votes, things she has said and done publicly -- such as the really stupid claims about Tuzla and her ridiculous comparison between her and Rocky Balboa.

The criticisms I hear about Obama fall into the range of "he's incompetent" and, worse still, whisper smear campaigns about really tangential issues, if they are issues at all. My next door neighbor is a rock-solid Hillary supporter. I was talking with her a week or two ago about something unrelated to the campaign. All of a sudden, she lowered her voice and said "So, what do you think about Obama's minister?"

I said, that's not something we should be focusing on. She got on her high horse about how we really needed to know these sorts of things. I repeated that I wasn't interested. She insisted. So, I asked her whether it bothered her that Hillary was a member of a right-wing theocratic cult and had been since 1993. She knew nothing about that. But, I was really put off by her conspiratorial tone and demeanor in dishing the dirt, rather than talking about issues.

Hillary supporters have fallen into the cast of seeing any criticism of her public remarks and actions as "hate," while, at the same time, rummaging through Obama's garbage to see if they can find anything to embarrass him with. They are beginning to resemble the Bushites who claim that any criticism of Bush is simply motivated by hatred.

In just the past few weeks, we heard about something Obama's minister once said, that he changed his name from Barry to Barack (something that apparently has some influence on his ability to lead the country), that his middle name is Hussein, that he only made $12,000 a year while working for a public service group. Apparently, these are fair game and disqualify him from being president.

However, if you say you have concerns about Hillary's war vote, her membership in The Family, her coziness with Big Insurance and Big Pharma, or express doubts about her health care plan, you are a "hater" and are immediately pegged as an Oabam supporter.

Right now, Hillary supporters are driving me closer and closer to supporting Barack.

[GarbagemanLB]

448. Wow. Great post.

[tabatha]

469. Excellent post.

[rch35]

438. Oh no! Did the bad online anonymous people hurt your feelings?

Gosh, thats really tragic. If you could see me right now, I would have my sad face on.

[Erin Elizabeth]

439. Just turn the names around and I could have

written that post. Everything the Clintons and the Clinton campaign has done is just pushing me further and further away from them. I once admired them, supported them.

No more.

They've been too ugly and dishonest and obnoxious and power-hungry for me to ever admire them again.

[Barrymores Ghost]

449. If you won't vote for Obama because of others' opinions of Clinton...

...rather than basing your decision on what the candidates themselves stand for, then you and your post are full of pure, unadulterated horseshit.

And you have no one to "thank for that" other than your damn self.

Jesus, you f***ing people.

[MilesColtrane]

451. I don't like Hillary Clinton or a lot of her supporters, but I damn well would vote for her...

...if she won the Democratic nomination.

It's simple, The POLICIES and APPOINTMENTS of a Clinton or Obama administration would be superior to those of John McCain.

I support Obama, but I won't let my personal dislike of Hillary Clinton stop me from voting for her in a contest against McCain.

And I can't even fathom letting my personal dislike of a candidate's supporters influence my decision on such an important issue.
It would be an illogical and emotionally immature thing to do. (I'll show them! I'll show them ALL! I'll never vote for THEIR choice!)

[kid a]

455. what a whiny, naive, and insulting post...get over yourself

I wonder how many sock puppets got pulled out of the woodwork to rec this.

[sudopod]

456. Doesn't that strike you as kind of childish?

It's like Karl Rove's story about how getting beaten up by Catholic school girls made him a harder-core Republican.

[Seabiscuit]

457. Obamanoids aren't big on understanding consequences of their actions. They just don't give a shit.

I for one have been driven by these cretins dangerously close to doing exactly the same thing the OP said he'd do in November - vote straight Dem but leave the Presidential box blank or write in John Edwards or Al Gore if Obama gets the nomination.

I used to think all Obamanoids were freepers. Now I think they're even worse than freepers.

[Faygo Kid]

459. I determine my own vote; Hillary's supporters or detractors don't. I suggest you consider the same.

What a load. You are free to take your ball and run home, but you might want to consider voting for a candidate based on issues and other matters of importance to you personally, not because somebody hurt your feelings.

I am so tired of hearing this spiel from Hillary's supporters. It's a ridiculous basis to choose who to vote for.

Your tender sensibilities are not the primary consideration as we move into a post-Bush era of cleaning up our country. Make up your own mind.

[shellfishgene]

471. Congratulations on being an idiot

I don't think anyone else is to "blame" for your choice on who to vote for. Obama is a solid candidate with amazing potential to unite the country and reshape American domestic and foreign policy for the better. Because some bloggers and media made fun of Clinton, you're going to forego voting for Obama?

Wow...

Obama supporters are intense to be sure, but you're such a mental midget that it will cause you to refuse to vote? Really?! It's not like the stakes are high or anything.

[mjjacobs]

474. Answer to subject question by the OP.....

NO, they obviously do not. I'm also a long time reader of DU that mostly avoids this forum because people with similar views (to mine) are cast as racist.

Also, for the first time in my 53 years, I have started to doubt whether I'm a Democat.......

[madisongrace]

479. Agree with most of what you say, but will vote for Obama if nominated. n/t

[aquart]

480. I agreed with you right up to your vote.

Yes, we are going to be stuck with Obama. We are also going to be stuck with the "loyal Bushie" behavior of his disgusting supporters. We are handing him (and them) the right to torture, detain, and kill Americans with no possibility of impeachment or even the necessity of explaining...because that is the precedent we have legalized by failing to impeach Bush and Cheney.

We are going to get the government we deserve.

That said, my fellow Yellow Dog, we have a Supreme Court to restock. We have federal attorneys to hire and fire. Hundreds of judges to appoint.

We have a million regulations to re-instate.

None of this will happen with a Republican.

Will Obama play the race card every time we notice a mistake or flaw? You betcha, but he's very skilled at it, so maybe look on it as theatre. Is Axelrod his Rove? Presidents aren't the only ones who can be corrupted by absolute power.

Doesn't matter.

You can't play dead in this election. We cannot allow another Republican administration. There is nothing left to steal.

Neither Hillary nor Obama is a saint. But Hillary supporters know she isn't. Obama supporters are in for a rude shock. Maybe it will take them seven years like it did with the loyal Bushies. But we don't have that much time. WE HAVE TWO YEARS UNTIL THE MIDTERMS. Two years to roll back the disaster of Republican rule. Two years to take a hammer to Republican monopoly of our media.

The Democrat has to win. Americans are dying at home and abroad because of Republican policies. This is not the first nor the last time that an election is decided by dirty tactics. Democracy is the art of making the best of what you have. Once again, we are going to have a divider who claims to be a uniter...damned shame.

Doesn't matter, Yellow Dog. Democracy isn't fair. But it tries. Same with the Democrats. We blew this primary season to hell. Hope the next one looks nothing like this. But it may. We have to make the best of what we have. Sad as that is.

Our lives are at stake.

[Deep13]

483. K&R for all the damn good it will do.

:(

[Renew Deal]

486. Spare me the drama

Just because the primary isn't working out the way you hoped doesn't mean you should whine about it. The primary didn't go the way I expected either. I never expected Obama to do as well as he has. Grow up.

[merkins]

491. I read the whole post as sarcasm

silly me?

[Starbucks Anarchist]

494. Then you can't complain about President Obama or McCain.

[Wetzelbill]

495. It wasn't that they used the race card on Bill Clinton, he was the one who used it

He's not racist, but he tried to paint Obama as the "Black" candidate ala Jesse Jackson. It's similar to how the Clinton campaign always comes out and paints the states that Obama wins as unimportant. Bill brought it on himself by taking that route, I don't think anybody could creditably say he is racist, that's not even the issue and that's not even the point of calling Bill on what he said. When Bill said that and then Hillary downplayed MLK Jr's role in Civil Rights, they specifically interjected race into the campaign. It wasn't racist, but it was in a way to suggest Obama was a niche candidate with a niche role in the overall process. Jesse Jackson and MLK had their niches and Obama was to have his too, meanwhile Hillary was supposed to be the leader who put it all together in the end. They invited those criticisms themselves, just the same as Obama invited criticism by bringing up Ronald Reagan around that same time period, except, most of the attacks against Obama were more disingenuous. And the fact of the matter is if you look at the campaigns, Hillary has attacked Obama way more and in a much more disingenuous fashion. But that is mostly campaign stuff, it happens, I never thought it was all that out of bounds. But Obama's campaign didn't run a race card against the Clintons, maybe people in the blogs or media did, but Obama's campaign stayed out of that one, for the most part. They answered questions sure, but they didn't go out and promote it or anything. Bill Clinton said what he said, and that's fair game for scrutiny.

The supporters on each side make attacks. Sure. But nobody went out of bounds until Hillary herself, started getting truly dirty. Practically endorsing John McCain, leaving the door open on the Obama is a Muslim thing. Her campaign from the beginning has tried to interject his drug use, which he has addressed admirably, into the campaign. People on her staff were caught forwarding the Muslim/Obama email, they sent out pictures of him dressed in ethnic garb when he was overseas, they still continue to perpetuate the Reverend Wright issue. Harold Ickes just said he is trying to turn superdelegates using the Wright issue. Still! Not only that, she's taken to campaigning on fear, like with her 3am ad, Karl Rove style. Those are all reprehensible, and they aren't isolated incidents, nor are they perpetrated by some supporters of hers on a message board somewhere. Her campaign, and even her inner circle and she herself, does these things. I love Hillary and Bill, I don't go out and attack them like some people might, but her campaign is flat out dirty, and Obama's isn't even remotely like that. Maybe his supporters might get out of hand, but the candidate and her campaign get out of hand themselves and that speaks volumes about her character.

[aaronbees]

651. I wish I could recommend posts

Because yours is gold. Spot on accurate.

[Forkboy]

496. Good heavens..have a plum.

[mckara]

498. Basically, You Blame Obama Supporters For...

Advocating for their candidate, and now you're going to pick up your marbles and go home sobbing.
Don't let the doorknob hit you where the dog SHOULD HAVE bit you!
:nopity:

[LulaMay]

Great post. It's very sad.

[Arkansas Granny]

536. Have you noticed what I'm noticing on this thread?

The majority of the Obama supporters are ridiculing the OP and thereby proving the point that she was trying to make. The majority of Hillary supporters understand where she is coming from and are trying to convince her that she shouldn't let the bad attitude of a candidates supporters influence her vote. This is very telling, IMO.

[noobie2]

650. I don't think it's that at all...

the OP is saying that they are disappointed by Obama because of some of his supporters. There are a variety of fallacies with this. First fallacy is the OPer is lumping supporters into one category as if that's ever been productive. What a person on DU says about anyone or a blogger, is and always will be, their own opinion. Second, if the case was, that I didn't like you (I don't know you or harbor any ill will toward you), for example and you supported candidate X, making a judgment about candidate X based on that is silly. This election is heated, no doubt about it, everyone wants their horse to win and many can lose sight of the big picture because of that fact. Many will be sore losers and sore winners.

I have made my decision based on what the candidate says officially (on their websites, speeches etc...) and compare how they conduct their campaign. Both candidates have made mistakes as well as associates affiliated with them. The candidates themselves have dodged questions when pressed. Not a single one of them is perfect. The question that follows is which one's humanity and personality can I tolerate/support.

[qanda]

500. Honest question here....

Can you explain how come Obama is responsible for how you view his supporters response? And how come that same measure isn't used against Clinton's supporters because I have seen some real hate on both sides. I say this as someone who was on the fence until Clinton began mocking Obama.

[krispos42]

501. Well, your argument makes about as much sense if you reversed it

I have been just lurking here and reading this election season, but I have been around DU since 2000. I haven't posted a lot so please don't say that I'm a "newbie" because I'm not.

I have never seen such venom and hostility towards another Democrat as I have seen from some people here toward Obama. They have been great candidates in our party and for you to call them the things that I have read is just horrible. Please don't try to use the argument "but the Obama people have trashed Clinton". They are just a drop in the bucket compared to these attacks.

I hadn't decided who to vote for, after Edwards dropped out, until I heard the reports that the Clinton campaign used the race card against Barack Obama in S.C. I couldn't believe it! Barack Obama, a racist? That has to be the dumbest thing I ever heard. Then I started reading the so called "progressive blogs and websites". I was absolutely astounded by the drivel these people were posting, and the fact that they sounded exactly like a far right wing Republican website. I couldn't tell the difference until they started their "adorating" for Clinton. Then MoveOn endorsed Clinton and then asked me for more money to help promote his campaign. Any website that asks for donations, has no business endorsing any candidate in a primary, if they are promoting Democratic candidates against Republicans. As for Buzzflash, I don't even go to that website at all let alone give them any more money. Evidently, vitriolic headlines doesn't bring in the money they need. Too bad for them, they should have kept neutral or at least consistently critical of both candidates.

Every time I have read a lie about Obama or read an uncalled for personal insult that has nothing to do with political discussion, or heard some fat cat official calling for Obama to drop out, it has hardened me with every word against Clinton. The sad thing is that the only personal things I had in the beginning against him were that I thought he didn't have enough experience and that he let his campaign make bad decisions for him such as the race card against Barack Obama, and the Repugs haven't vetted his closet skeletons. We all know how well they do this, thanks to the fires of hell that the Obamas walked through as our Democratic leaders. Most of you were their friends and defenders then, what happened to you?

Every pundit, and blogger with each personal insult has driven the animosity deeper with every blow. I'm at the point that I can't even watch Clinton give a speech, just as I can't watch bush. That should be a clue that I feel I've been GOP'ed by the anti Obama people. I know that's not right, but I can't help it because my resentment for all the unfair criticism against Obama is now very deep and it's because of all of this hatred from other people I have turned against Clinton.

I have been a "yellow dog Democrat" all my life, which should tell you that I have held my nose and still voted for my straight Democratic ticket a few times. I always vote a straight Democratic ticket. A few weeks ago I would still have voted for who ever won the primary, but not now. As I said, the resentment runs deep and with every unfair insult and lie, it gets deeper.

I can't vote for a Republican, but I will leave the box beside the president blank or write in another candidates name, and I will vote a straight Democratic ticket the rest of the way on it, but I will not vote for Clinton and you have yourselves to thank for that.

Trust me when I say that there are many, many people who feel the same way I do and many of them will vote for McCain, or will do what I plan to do.

Do you finally understand what you've done? You didn't have to go this far. Why you did I'll never understand. You were so "motivated" by your candidate, that you pushed him right out of any chance of winning the GE if he wins the primary.

Translation? It has reached the point for many (including me) where any attempt at a rational argument simply doesn't stick any more. Your OP is a varient of a million different threads on the DU in the past three months. So is mine above. Picking a candidate is not a particularly rational process to begin with, and now it has all started to blur together.

Unless something major happens, many of us, perhaps most of us, have put rational thinking to rest and are running either on stubborness or perception.

[Shoelace]

502. oh Gawd, don't throw your vote away, we can't afford another Pub pres

for any reason. I love them both and it's very sad to see all the vitriol on this website between their respective supporters.
We must, in the end, settle our differences for the higher good of our country.

Another 4 years of a Republican president and our country will be done. It is nearly there now!

[guyanakoolaid]

504. I, as an Obama supporter, understand what I've done...

I have helped elect the next great President of the United States of America

[1monster]

506. Hear! Hear! I was the same as you. I hadn't made a choice about Obama or Clinton. But the

vitriol on DU against Senator and President Clinton was just so over the top that it made me dislike Obama.

I will still vote for the nominee in the general election, but I will hold my nose doing so.

If there were another option other than voting for McCain, I'd take it.

I keep hearing about how the Clinton's have trashed Obama, but, since I've long since deleted GD:P from my DU experienc, I sure haven't seen it. All I ever see are nasty nasty video (on the Home Page) about what a terrible pariah Hillary is or the posts that make it on to the Home Page from the Greatest which are even worse than the videos.

The argument that Clinton supporters are spewing hatred and anything they can come up with in the hopes that it will stick is a pitiable defense. Even if it were true, it is no defense. Period. Stop.

About the only thing that has been done "liberally" is the amount of nasty, malodorous, obnoxious filth that has been posted. And that is not liberal or progessive at all.

Quite a few people are skipping GD:P these days, so they are seeing the same disgusting garbage that I am.

When the primaries are over, both sides are going to have to work together in order to prevent the Republican machine from stealing another election.


on edit: finished the sentence that I was working on when I accidentally hit post.

[Fox Mulder]

508. Not voting for Obama because of his supporters is the dumbest...

thing I've ever heard. Seriously. It's people like you who will allow John McCain to be elected President. I hope you'll be happy with yourself if that happens.

[truthpusher]

509. blamer...

...do you realize?

[oasis]

515. K AND R

[CRH]

519. Both campaigns' supporters can be over the top much of the time, ...

and this particular forum GDP most of the time has more emotion than logic, more innuendo than fact.

This forum also attracts all levels of political animals, young and old, sophisticated and not so much, right and left; from every diverse section of society and geographic region in the US, and sometimes beyond. When the campaigning begins the tone in the posting takes on the same diversity, with less than normal restraint fostered by anonymity.

It is important to occasionally count to ten, consider the source, and even block the source of discomfort if your own emotion is strained. It happens to many, there have been many times in the past when the politics have become to personal and I have had to back away for a while.

People and clicks of people are not always nice, sometimes over aggressive, condescending, insufferable, fill in the blank. But, those are exactly the kind of people who should not affect your decision on who you will vote for. In the end in November 2008 you will cast your ballot. Match whoever the democratic nominee is against the known quantity of the republican party platform and John McCain, and let your conscience be your guide when you cast your ballot. No person in a democracy can ask or expect anything more, and it is the reason of the voting booth and the secret ballot. So the rabid supporters of any campaign or group, has not the influence over your decision.

Don't let the aggressive, condescending, insensitive, or insufferable, cast your ballot for you.

[AdamSC]

520. Obama will win, and he's earned it

I would like to clarify something for Hillary Supporters:

Obama is not winning due to some Messianic complex his supporters are suffering from. He is, quite frankly, just out-hussling her on the ground. I worked with the Obama campaign in SC and it was the most organized group of people I've ever seen. I was a poll watcher. The manager of the poll I was stationed at was this old white guy who was really into Civil War history. He said he had been a poll manager for 30 years and that he had never seen a campaign as organized as the Obama campaign.

Hillary Clinton's biggest mistake was thinking that the nomination was her's before the primaries even began. She had no plan to continue this race after Super Tuesday. She spent all of her money leading up to Super Tuesday and had no choice but to launch personal attacks (the "Kitchen Sink" Strategy) afterwards because negative attacks are a lot cheaper than positive campaigning. Now her lies and attacks are coming back to haunt her. Her "foreign policy experience" looks foolish and many of her attacks have come off as racist and inappropriate. Her donors are tapped-out and she can't compete in the money race. She has, without doubt, run a terrible campaign.

Obama has been running a 50 State Strategy. He planned on campaigning in States after Super Tuesday. He built a grassroots effort and gathered over a million online donors. He, thus, has a vast reserve of campaign cash to fall-back on. He is extremely organized and his volunteers flood States before their primaries. He is now gathering a steady flow of Superdelegates because they realize he has mobilized an effort that is far stronger and more likely to carry over into the General Election than Hillary Clinton's woeful efforts. He has, without doubt, run a magnificent campaign.

Now all we can hope is that she will exit the stage gracefully. Anymore negative attacks on Obama will only damage her long term reputation and job prospects. Does she want the Superdelegates to decide that it's time for her to leave? How is she going to go back to the Senate after all of her Superdelegate colleagues teamed-up to kick her out of the race? She will obviously feel betrayed and they will certainly have hard feelings about the perceived damage she will have done to the party. If she continues to smear the eventual nominee of the Democratic Party, who will support her possible campaign for Governor of NY in 2010? Who would ever support her for the position of Senate Majority Leader?

This race was Hillary's to lose. I understand why her supporters are so bitter. She built up their hopes by acting as if she were inevitable and then greatly disappointed them by running a terrible campaign. Obama is certainly not to blame. He ran a great campaign, which should be commended.

[Alexander]

524. Yeah, how dare we win against Queen Hillary. This was her coronation, after all.

:rofl:

[TomBall Democrat]

527. Oh, she's queen alright

Queen of the Bitches.

[Alexander]

567. Was that really necessary?

I don't want Hillary to win, but c'mon - did you need to use such an adjective?

[Zavulon]

528. Aside from her IWR vote and refusal to admit she was wrong,

Hillary is an embarrassment. Her answer to the drivers' licenses for illegals issue, her fake tears, her Bosnian sniper fire lie, her lie about where Chelsea was on 9/11, her lie about how she got her name, her absurd claims about all of this "experience" she has, and so on. The woman is no more honest than Bush and Cheney are, and she even voted for their fucking war.

Hillary is an absolute disgrace, and if she gets the nomination I'll probably remember your post fondly when "I will leave the box beside the president blank or write in another candidates name, and I will vote a straight Democratic ticket the rest of the way on it, but I will not vote for Hillary and you have yourself to thank for that."

BTW, if you think Hillary has a better chance than Obama in the GE, you're not reading the same polls as I am.

[Irishonly]

531. Maybe You Need To Step Back

These past eight years have been hell on earth for liberals. We have watched our Constitution being called a god damed piece of paper, watched our civil rights be eroded, watched as good people have become homeless because their jobs were outsourced and people dying because of no insurance. My little list is far from complete.

It seems a lifetime ago when everyone was happy with all of the democratic candidates. I was an Edwards supporter and I was furious about the way the MSM treated him. I imagine the Kuchinich, Dodd, Biden, Richardson and Graval supporters were just as angry.

I turned into a November nominee supporter and I have hated the bile spewed here by supporters of both candidates. I have become saddened at an almost civil war has broken out on the liberal/progressive blogs and the anger people can show toward each other. At one time I had almost 200 people on ignore and it was not just Obama supporters. There are some Clinton supporters who were as bad or worse. I decided my ignore list was ridiculous and took everyone off. People have a right to their opinions and I tend to ignore a lot of posts. When a supporter of any candidate results to name calling and insults, it's bad. But that's me.

Neither one of the candidates are their supporters. I have come to see that humans see what they want to see about the other candidate. Neither one is perfect and our goal should be to elect as many democrats as we can on all levels. Losing the WH now would be unbearable. There is too much at stake.

Step back for a bit and realize message boards do not represent America. We are political junkies and we know about one hundred times more than the average American. It's important to remember it. We are emotionally invested in our candidates of choice and being human we don't understand why people do not think the same way as we do.

I will proudly vote for the nominee in November. My child and hopefully my very far into the future grand children's choices are at stake. One hundred years in Iraq, bomb, bomb,bomb Iran and anti choice beliefs as well as being crooked are all I need to know. Neither candidate is perfect and none of the candidates matched my views completely but given the consequence of not voting or voting for McCain IMHO it's a no brainer of who to vote for.

[susanwy]

667. as a Biden supporter...

Well said. Anybody but McLame...

:kick:

[AtomicKitten]

533. And all this time I thought "Muddy Waters" was a blues singer.

;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uO4A6xx65WU

[sbhdawn]

534. Clintons hoping to fool their folowers

Gosh, have you got it all wrong! Bill Clinton was the one who
first made the slurr against Barack, calling his campaign a
"fairy-tale", then remarking that his win was just
like the win that Jessie Jackson had, implying that they had
both won because they were both black. That was the first hit,
and it was started by Bill Clinton, and the Clinton campaign.
 
The Clintons, have done all the damage, and have proven to me,
a former big fan of them both, that they are in this race to
fufill their own personal ambitions, and has nothing to do
with us or the country. 
They have really disappointed me, as in the beginning I was a
Clinton supporter, but when I began to see her using dirty
politics just to win, I became very disappointed in her, and
swithched to Barack, who has only been guilty of asking her a
few questions and trying to ans. HER accusations against him
with the facts.

 It has been her attacking him, and thus showing her true
colors and Bill's also. Anyone who thinks differently, I
believe has been successfully fooled by the Clintons, as I now
believe is their intentions to fool their supporters; counting
on their blind allegience and lack of intelligence in order to
achieve this.

 I actually think they may even be laughing at the ease they
have accomplished this, and one example of this is this big
lie, told by Hillary, about landing in Bosnia.

 Anyone with any sense would remember getting shot at FOR
SURE. The news people have investigated and have found out
that there has never been any incident of any shootings
involving her, or Chelsea!! Come on, you don't think you would
remember correctly, taking your child into a bullet flying
situation?? If you don't find this strange, then you are
indeed one of the supporters I have discribed above. She even
repeated this story 2 other times on tv, and I saw it myself!
She just made up a huge lie, and now I know that she is
capable of sincerely telling a blatant lie, and I could never
vote for a person of such character to be our president!

 What else has she lied about; well her other stories of
experience for starters, as her experience stories have proven
to be false too.

 We could not trust her to be president, we might even have
another Bush type leading our nation. The bible has a passage
that says "there is none so blind, as those who will not
see."

[dave123williams]

535. Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out of the party.

If Obama is the nominee, it's your duty as a Democrat to vote with us. Period.

You would REALLY hand over the Whitehouse to a REPUBLICAN? REALLY?

Well, we know how strong of a Democrat YOU are.

If Hillary gets the nomination, she gets my vote. Same thing goes for Obama, and I'm rooting for him.

What part of that aren't you getting?

[sbhdawn]

537. Won't vote for a deceiver and a lier

Even though I know McCain will be bad for the United States in almost every way, I still will not vote for a PROVEN LIER, as she might actually end up being WORSE than McCain??

How do we know what she and Bill are capable of doing with all the power of the presidency?? I will have to let the chips fall where they may fall in this election, but she has proven to be such a deceiver I am actually AFRAID of her and Bill getting back into office, so between her and McCain, it is possible she could be just as bad or even worse!

The terrible way they have set out to destroy Barack, plus endorsing McCain over him and all the below the belly attacks against a fellow democrat, in order to destroy him just so they can get elected has proven to me that THEY are not fit for this high office!

By the way, they are endorsing McCain (and this is a good example of their party loyalty for you), because they want him to get elected, just so that she can run again in 4 years from now!! What about their loyalty to the party; the truth is, they have no loyalty to us or to the party or to this country!! No, the only loyalty they have is to themselves, and they are counting on fooling their followers in order to achieve this goal.

They are proving they don't care about the party!!!!! No, only their interests, and you still think I should give THEM MY VOTE??

[cbayer]

538. I think a lot of people who post here underestimate their power.

I would consider most here better informed than the general electorate. They have also honed their arguments well and can both defend their own candidate and succinctly attack the weaknesses of the other.

This is why I think this OP is important. If some of the Obama supporters here are taking their hateful vitriol towards Clinton to the general public, I promise you they are turning off some voters who we will really, really need in the GE. There are a few Clinton supporters as well, but their method of attack is velvet glove compared to some of the Obama supporters here.

Personally, I am reluctant to post anything positive about Clinton or too strongly challenge anything about Obama on this board. The attacks come so swiftly and so viciously, it makes my head spin.

I am a very independent person, strong lifelong liberal democrat and do not make decisions based on having had my feelings hurt.

However, every time I see Obama on the TV or hear him speak, I have a little jolt of surprise. He is so much better than many of his supporters on this board. Because I spend a lot of time on DU, I sometimes forget how good he is. Some of the people he attracts are truly distasteful. They think they are helping their candidate. I assure you, they are not.

[Sancho]

539. I will vote for a Democrat, but this is an important post...

The constant attacks against good members of the Democratic Party are out of hand. In Florida, I fear that the state will be the key to McCain winning simply because of the rush to Obama and the desire to exclude 2,000,000 Florida voters simply to win a nomination.

It's time to support candidates without silly attacks that have no basis against other Democrats...


:dem:

[mistertrickster]

540. I respectfully disagree. I've disliked the Clintons since before it was cool.

Bill Clinton was the best REPUBLICAN president we've ever had --

1. he threw families off of federal assistance in the name of "welfare reform" (thus giving the CONs a victory against the poor they had coveted for years).

2. despite a majority of Dems who were successfully opposing it in Congress, Clinton rallied support for "free trade" NAFTA that speeded up the pace of outsourcing jobs. Thus did "free trade" supplant "fair trade" as a Democratic plank in our platform.

3. Clinton gave the 300 richest families in America a bigger tax break (from 30 percent to 23 percent tax rate) than George WorstPresidentEver Bush did (Bush lowered it from 23 percent to 18 percent).

4. Clinton passed a ridiculous cosmetic-only "assault weapons ban" that did nothing to reduce gun crime or actually outlaw dangerous guns, but did have the effect of rallying every gun-nut in the country to the belief that Clinton "wanted to take away our guns."

5. at the time that special investigators were crawling through his sock drawer looking for anything they could find (Travel gate, File gate, Trooper gate etc), Clinton chose that moment to go INSANE and engage in an illicit affair with Monica Lewinisky in his very office -- when discovered, as any sentient being would realize it would be, Clinton lied and lied repeatedly about it. Instead of stepping down, and assuring the next 8 years were Al Gore's out of a sense of outrage at the over-stepping CONs, Clinton toughed it out and instead gave us Worst. President. Ever.

So much for giving a damn about the party.

6. the only thing you need to remember about The Clinton is Bill smiling like the cat that ate the canary on January 21, 2001 when he's preening for the cameras after that GD POS GW Bush STOLE THE FRICKING WHITE HOUSE FROM THE AMERICAN PEOPLE.

Didn't seem to bother old Slick Willie one damn bit. His future is secure.

And if you don't believe it, just look at that multi-million dollars he makes for speaking fees.

Except we can't look at it them, can we?

Because The Clintons' won't release their tax returns.

*******

The best thing that can happen to the Democratic party is for the Clintons' to get the hell out of the way.

There's a lot of work to be done.

They had their chance. They blew it.

[Fovea]

655. Clinton was the last moderate Republican

president.

Now we need FDR.

[baldguy]

543. At this point - any Democrat, even a bad one, is better than the best Republican.

And McCain isn't one of the better ones - his administration will be worse than the Bush regime.

And here's some more news - Obama isn't one of the bad ones.

[odelisk8]

544. Obama

played the race card AGAINST Bill Clinton???

so, it was Obama who pointed out that Pat Buchanan won NH?

oh, wait, no, it was CLINTON who said "Jesse Jackson won SC" you know, cause he's a black guy...it didn't matter that there were a bunch of WHITE guys who had won SC....

BWHAHAHAH!!!!

great comic relief this afternoon...

[stevenleser]

545. *plonk'ed* for bias. Its impossible not to see nastyness of Clinton supporters toward Obama

[mistertrickster]

546. BTW, a Clinton-operative has confessed that the Rev. Wright

guilt-by-association hit piece that swept the right-wing media was theirs.

Yup.

Typical.

The Clintons' fight hard . . . for the Clintons'.

[NBachers]

547. Good for You, Amelia!

My first exposure to Obama was at the 2004 Democratic Convention. Remember that? "The skinny guy with the funny name." I felt like "Wow- what if we could have this guy for president some day?" I was blown away - I get goosebumps right now just thinking about it. The same way I got goosebumps watching his race speech two weeks ago.

I've always seen Hillary as a possible good candidate for 2008. I resonate with Edwards better, but Hillary can take everything the fascists throw at her, chew it up, and spit it right back at them.

The more I've seen of Obama, the more I like him. I've considered myself a recovering Clinton supporter who's leaning Obama. But the thing that keeps me from going all the way to Obama - for months now, the spiteful assholes on this board have labeled me a "Hillbot."

Ya know what? Everyone who has used that word - "Hillbot" - I would vote for Hillary Clinton if she were the nominee. That makes me a "Hillbot." You are insulting me personally. Fuck every one of you motherfuckers.

I feel the same as Amelia. I like Clinton. I love Obama. But the fascist zealotry of the Obama supporters, and the personal way they've insulted me here, has turned me against him. And made me avoid DU.

Oh yeah - another thing - to jettison and everyone who likes to use similar arguments - "By contrast, most 65 year old white women who can't operate their VCR, but can watch Fox News and read the local paper have chosen Hillary by a wide margin. Coincidence?"

I'll be a 60-year-old white guy next week. I'm tech-literate, politically-literate and I've got long years of experience. I know the feeling in the world during the Kennedy Administration, and I've lived the Republican nightmare since the day he was killed. Yet you imply that I'm somehow less capable than you of making up my own mind in the "right" way. What entitles you to throw this kind of shit in my face, and what did I do to deserve it? I've been far-left Democrat for over four decades. Why do I deserve your insults?

[Barrymores Ghost]

562. You're shallow and petulant, that's why.

If I had any reservations about casting my vote for Hillary Clinton, they would be from the multitude of reasons she has, through her own actions and words, personally given me -- not from anything that any number of foamy-mouthed Obama acolytes in DU had to say about her.

That anyone in this funny-farm of a cyber-reality could allow themselves to be so emotionally manipulated by mere supporters of another Democratic candidate (to the point that this alone would preclude him or her from voting for that candidate) tells me that we have a lot of really selfish and immature dolts in here who call themselves Liberals, Progressives and Democrats -- or we have a whole bunch of concern trolls milling about, and the Mods need to do a bit of housecleaning.

If you're one of former, then you haven't learned much from your 60 years...but happy birthday, just the same.

[tbl92666]

575. Please you Obama scum are the definition of petulant.

Bastards. I hate you with every fiber of my being.

[Barrymores Ghost]

578. Wow, you're a sad one, ain'tcha?

How empty of hope and devoid of self-enrichment your life must be, that you'd reserve such bile-laden vitriol for someone who (assuming you're really a progressive, liberal or Democrat who's here to commune with like-minded people) probably shares the greater part of your values and belief systems, but disagrees with you on point as to who would make a better president.

So, you hate Obama, because you "hate" me and people like me? Please pardon me while I cringe with bemusement.

I couldn't possible hate you. But I damned sure pity you.

[Moochy]

653. RAWR SAID THE INTERNET TOUGH GUY!!!!!

assplode.

[Barrymores Ghost]

660. He's been tombstoned since his last post.

You can still witness his mindless rants at SmirkingChimp and HuffingtonPost, if so inclined.

[Bonobo]

548. Why can't everyone see how INSANE this post is?

The idea of supporters on a message board driving people to vote one way is INSANE.

Why does this get 100 recs? Are there this many crazy people on DU?

[flowomo]

550. I recommended; am voting for Obama; am not crazy...

any more questions?

[Bonobo]

551. Yeah, a big one. Why did you rec it?

[flowomo]

624. I have several posts earlier in the thread explaining that....

The OP is a vote I want to win over. It's there for the asking if people just accept the message and work with it. I recommended because the sentiments in the OP are widespread across the country and not to be ignored if we want to work for every vote in the GE. My recommendation is not based on agreement with the sentiments expressed by the OP -- but on the importance of grasping that these sentiments exist and can be addressed to Obama's benefit.

[Bonobo]

640. Thanks for the clear explanation.

[flowomo]

656. you're welcome...

and thank YOU for the kind response to it. I really think we can all exchange opinions and still be civil. At least I hope so.

[Bonobo]

657. Agreed. Maybe we need to do it one on one, person by person. And then remember.

For example, you and I just had a "nice moment".

Now, if we built on that small amount of trust, perhaps we could share different opinions and even learn from each other.

That was the purpose of DU to begin with.

[muryan]

553. i thought this was a farse at first

then i realized it was real and it makes baby pandas cry.

Yes, people are being EXTREMELY dramatic about small snippets said here and there. The fact remains that both sides are going after each other and using much of the same tactics (on this forum). So everyday its a new post from one side or the decrying the horrible terrible mean things the other side is saying, when in reality its being lobbed from both sides, just you happen to agree with it when it comes your point of view. I think we've maxed out the amount of threads on this website that sparked real and honest debate and we are now at the point its pretty pointless. So in summation...

ARE WE DONE WITH THIS SHIT YET?

[DeanDem10]

556. I really think that this article is off-base

The Hillary camp has polluted this campaign with such venom that I switched from Edwards to Obama. I have never in my (many) years seen such nastiness. Even the 2004 collective candidate dump on Howard dean wasn't this bad. The problem is that you are blinded to the damage your candidate has done to this race. I was once an ardent Clinton (Bill and Hillary) supporter. In the pre-blog years I defended them for years on political discussion boards.

Then I took a look at their record objectively after the fact. The record isn't quite so rosy as Hillary supporters would have us believe. And Hillary's "35 years" has been mightily embellished. She supposedly ducked fire (!), brought peace to Northern Ireland, and more. She was the top advisor to sensitive matters, even though she never had a security clearance. Hillary now claims she opposed NAFTA. Sorry but some of us have a memory.

I still think they (Bill and Hillary) were gone-after by the "right" wing unfairly. But the Clintons have had their chance. There should be no second comings of any political dynasty by the spouse, whether the prior office holder was male or female. Dynasties are a bad thing. We already know that. BTW I am not all that comfortable with Bill and Hillary Clinton's newfound good friends, the George HW Bushes. Gives one pause. The Clintons think we are to diss Obama because of his minister. Don't look now, but the Clinton friendship with the Bushes is much more troubling. We do not need any more political or economic cronyism, any more government on behalf of the rich, privatizing of any more federal programs (especially Social security--Bill Clinton considered privatizing it and was on the verge of buying into privatization acc Joe Conason).

The recent sludge that you refer to is a function of the Clinton camp. They have openly shown what they are really like. And you cannot blame any Obama supporter for the behavior of the Clinton camp.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

557. 146 posts (what happened to let it sink)

[RBInMaine]

558. This is VERY one-sided. The Clinton people have been VERY nasty to Obama people as well.

There are TWO sides to every case. If you have any sense of fairness, you'll see that Mrs. Clinton and her team have also gone scorched earth, kitchen sink, and on and on and on attacking Obamba.
Obama has not attacked Clinton nearly as much or so harshly.

[gimberly]

559. Ape Rule Full - Won Dale Ate?

[OnionPatch]

561. What a load!

Guess what, this is a political campaign and people have strong opinions about the candidates that some folks might not like. But if you want to take your marbles and go home, BYE BYE!!! :hi:

Hillary herself has been more insulting to Obama than he's been to her and that's what matters to me, not her followers. The things she herself said makes me pretty tempted to not vote for her if she wins the nomination. However, I will put my personal grievances aside and hold my nose to vote if I must, so our country won't go down the shitter with a McCain presidency. Too bad some people would rather see their country go to hell in a handbasket than have their delicate little egos hurt.

[aquarius dawning]

564. 101 recs? wow......... Anyways. I agree totally.

[quickesst]

566. I'm on....

the same page. If Obama gets the nomination, he'll have his Hate-Hillary Posse to thank for not recieving my vote. I will still vote for him at this point, but the fanatacism, anti-Clinton spin, and hatred being displayed here is fast testing my resolve. That his supporters cannot see the apt comparison to the repugs of 2000-2004 should come as no surprise. Der Monkey's supporters could not see the obvious either.
As for the equal "shit slinging", Obama supporters consider any criticism at all toward Obama, "shit slinging". remember that the next time you peruse the threads in GDP. That's obvious to anyone who has not lost all sense of fair play and logic to infatuation, and naive idealism. Fact is, there is only one other political group who is as hate-filled, maybe less now, toward the only Democrats to have beaten the repugs, twice, since Carter. No effort required as to the identity of the that group, suffice it to say, welcome to deja vu.
And yes, Obama played the race card first. That this has been one of Obama and his supporters most effective weapons in manipulation through guilt, and fear of being labeled a racist(watch Tweety, Olberman, Wolfie, etc) is also obvious, unless, (see above). Not satisfied in villifying just the Clintons, their race cards have been played very effectively with anyone associated with them, including many respected and long-time members here at DU. Most disturbing is the gleeful revelry they display, and the mighty effort to surpass the last in vitriol and hatred for the hunger of personal kudos. I sometimes have to do a doubletake, and make sure that I have not been redirected to that "other' hate-filled place. If Obama loses the GE, he can thank the likes of his supporters here, and that's what you call a shame. Thanks.
quickesst

[nonoxy9]

569. I feel the same way only in REVERSE! I'm not a yellow dog, just a union man who's

who's voted for a dem every election since Mondale. Yes, I voted for Bill both times. But now I can't tell the difference between the clintons and the bushes! They even both run to FOX and freinds when they need a little support.
I won't vote for anyone either if my choice is between Hillary and McCain. So I geuss it's a wash!
nyah!

[Politicalboi]

570. Gosh your threats are scaring me

Apparently you are the one who can't see what has been going on here. Hillary took us for granted. She thought she could say and do anything and that in November we would all come together and vote for her. Who was the one who endorsed McCain? Hillary. Who was the one who lied about Bosnia? Hillary. Who voted for the war? Hillary. Who voted not to ban cluster bombs and land mines? Hillary.
Who lied about NAFTA? Hillary. Who lied about bringing peace to Ireland? Hillary. Who hasn't showed us her taxes? Hillary. Who wants to change the rules in this election? Hillary. The truth hurts sometimes and I guess you can't handle it and neither can Hillary. So stay home in November or vote McCain. Who the fuck cares? I certainly don't. If you are so blind about your candidate maybe you should register as Republican because they don't see what Bush does either.

[tbl92666]

571. 1000% Correct

Obama people are the worst of the worst. So is he. Turning the Clintons into racists = new kind of politics, my ass; hey Barack, you're a lying piece of garbage.

I will vote straight Democratic ticket up to the presidential slot, then I will abstain. If McCain wins, so be it.

[Barrymores Ghost]

580. Guessing your stay here will be short-lived, then?

Now THAT'S a tragedy...


...buh-bye!

[Barrymores Ghost]

598. self-delete

[ExPatLeftist]

572. Always amazed when people cannot separate the candidate from the supporters

There are idiots everywhere, and every single candidate ever has had vociferous assholish supporters that take it too far.

It is true of both current candidates - some idiots that happen to support Clinton and some that happen to support Obama.

If you step out of the white noise of this ceaseless fray and the mudslinging by the idiot minority, then you will perhaps feel differently.

Turn against someone because some imbeciles happen to like them? Please. You'll never find a candidate that is free of them.

[Name removed]

573. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ExPatLeftist]

577. I voted for Obama

and I am neither shallow nor disingenuous. Whether or not you believe me is up to you. But you do not know me from Adam.

I wrote a respectful but opposing view, and from you I get rabid and thoughtless venom. If you are over the age of 12 you have no excuse for that level of immaturity. This is especially ironic because the OP is complaining about the tone around here and attributing it to Obama supporters. You prove my point that this tone comes from immature fools on both sides of this sandbox war. You also prove my point about the intelligence of those that cannot discern between individuals and the masses. Thank you for your assistance in making my argument.

If you honestly believe that ALL supporters of Obama are "shallow and disingenuous", then you really should seek help.

[Harmonicaman]

574. as an outsider, I've wondered about this before

now I'll wonder about it again ;

Is the situation created by BushCo really so fucked up that the Dems are actively seeking to throw the election ?.

There is a shitstorm coming and the piper wants to be paid - why put themselves into that only to have the Republican Pravda outlets paint it all the Dems fault. Let the Republicans win another term - the following election, especially with McCain as President would see the Republicans destroyed , then the Democrats would have the time needed to do the rebuilding job at home and the healing job abroad.

I find it hard to believe both Obama and Clinton are behaving this way. Bush was slated for his lack of experience, the world soon discovered the worst kept secret in the world, he is a buffoon and someone has his hand up his backside operating him, a win in November inherits the victor a shocking situation, created by corporate greed and pocket lining nepotism, and the unpalatable fact that America is now regarded as the bully of the world, a torturing state with no respectfor the rule of law, "ran" by an imbecile at the beck and call of his corporate cronies whjo have all made a fortune on the backs and the blood of 4000 and counting US soldiers and G*d alone only knows how many civilians, members of the administration and its friends have been put above the law and the rest of you treated as the plebs of Orwells creation.

Maybe letting the Republicans finish the job they started, namely nailing their own coffin shut for 20 years is the way to go.

Just a thought

[iamthebandfanman]

579. everyone in GDP are lil kids

dontcha know that?

most of the stuff ive ever dared to read in this forum are personal attacks on either canidate. its really sad.

thats what happens when u get two people who have almost the exact same plans as far as issues........
you get personal attacks...
cause theres nothing else to attack on when you agree on everything.

[jhain]

581. Anyone who is *PLANNING* to vote against a Dem for Pres

ought to just go get a user name over at freeperville.
A Non vote is a vote against.

We don't need uncommitted Dems.

[Kip Humphrey]

582. As an Edwards supporter, I judge Hillary and Obama on their histories, not their supporters

Hillary is a former Goldwater Girl who became an early (1970ish) Gaia-ist and early neo-liberal. The neo-liberal movement was the precursor to the neo-conservative movement and Hillary has stayed true to neo-liberalism and the globalist agenda until recently if you believe her campaign rhetoric (I don't). I do believe both she and Bill believe they can accomplish the neo-liberal romantic idealistic agenda with a soft landing for the American middle class. I just don't agree and, furthuremore, strongly disagree with their approach of engineering the global economic agenda without the consent and support of the American people - so much so that Hillary refuses to run for president on that agenda which I believe she has not abandoned.

I have watched Obama since 1978. While I don't agree with many of his points of view (too conservative for me), I am convinced he has been entirely authentic, consistent, and true to his vision and philosophy of governance. Finally, and for me paramount, Obama is no neo-liberal, as far as I can tell over 30 years of observing him from afar, has no hidden agenda, and is a c-change in the power matrix that controls this country.

Therefore, I reject Hillary for all of her good intentions and idealism because of that idealism and its foundation in a hidden agenda that is fundamentally driven in execution by dishonesty toward the American people. I embrace Obama, have voted for him, and will vote for him this November along with a large plurality of my kids' generation because he is authentic and offers tangible hope to that generation, particularly in light of the mess our generation is handing them.

Don't vote if you must but don't be disingenuous by blaming bloggers, DU posters, or the MSM pundit barking dogs. By doing so, you only reinforce ugly opinions that mean nothing.

[TomClash]

584. We know whar we're doing - it's called winning nt

[texshelters]

586. I'm proud you're not a newbie and

you have Soooo much experice

and you are so wise to understand that if we don't want Clinton to be president that

we are lying about her and must be sexist?

What are you taking about?

Hit the alert button and move on. Most of the Obama and Clinton supporters don't flame?

And if we do flame, is that a reason to hate Obama?

I don't hate Senator Clinton because her Husband created "Welfare to Work."

Peace,
Tex Shelters

[ernestv]

587. I agree... but....

Let's not put it all on DU... included on the list is also Huffington Post, DailyKOS, along with Keith Olberman, and Rhandi Rhodes, and Ed Schultz... There's less Hillary bashing on Sean Hannity, Fox News and conservative sites...

[Mike Nelson]

588. I've seen runs of anti-Clinton posts that go way over the top...

more than the other way around. It's all bad, though.

[cui bono]

589. Kyle? Is that you?

Any other Stephanie Miller fans recognize Kyle in this?


"WAH WAH WAH!!! I'm not getting my way so I'm going to spoil it for everyone even if it means ruining the whole country by voting for a Republican and giving them the next Supreme Court appointments. WAH WAH WAH!!!"

Grow the fuck up already.

[Moochy]

676. Oh Hell yes

These posters are Kyle.

[texshelters]

590. By the way

Being new doesn't mean inexperienced. We all have lives outside DU and can bring that experience to what we write.

That is a huge Clintonian point: "He only made a speech." Both Obama and Clinton have lots of experience outside of Congress and Washington, DC.

If you want experience, vote for Dick Cheney.

Tex Shelters

[cui bono]

591. Riiiiight, it's Obama supporters who are digging up all the bullshit the Clinton

campaign keeps throwing to the media. It's the Obama supporters who are saying the Republican candidate is better than the other Dem candidate.

You are SO wrong I can't believe what I read.

I also can't believe it's based on genuine feelings since all I see on this board is a bunch of Clinton supporters STILL supporting her dirty campaign and slinging hateful posts at others. Honestly, I rarely see any nasty posts by Obama supporters. So I have to call BS on this OP. I don't believe you are not a die hard Hillbot posing as having once been neutral.

[amelia]

593. EDIT: It should be 2001 not 2000, since that is so important to

some people. I apologize but it was very late when I wrote it.

[RazBerryBeret]

594. I have a feeling...

you would have never voted for him anyway, regardless...

[Stop Cornyn]

595. As an Edwards-Kucinich supporter who now supports Obama, I agree that his supporters are a factor

which weighs against Obama's candidacy, but I urge you to make your choice without reference to the relentlessly ugly tone of what some immature Obama supporters post anonymously in the childish belief that they are actually promoting their preferred candidate. Vote Nader or McCain if you must, but first please try to weigh our Democratic nominee without reference to the ill will generated by his or her anonymous supporters.

K & R

[Thickasabrick]

597. Whatever - don't vote if you don't want to - I am fucking sick of

these threats. It has been ugly on both sides and that just tells me - we are a passionate bunch. Get over yourself...this isn't about you.

[truedelphi]

600. I will just quote "mythc" they said that "Hillary lies and she

lies, lies, lies 4 times since Iowa about the sniper fire, then has the audacity to issue press releases about Obama's legitimate professor title; doesn't retract this attack once U.Chicago confirms the title"

[mythyc]

616. it's spelled mythyc damnit ;-)

i kid, thanks for the kudos

[truedelphi]

662. Sorry - i was just spelling it the way Hillary spelled

It -- back when she was in Bosnia.

[mythyc]

663. damn that hillary trying to rob me of my identity!

:rofl: ;)

[Tennessee Gal]

602. No, they do not understand.

More importantly, they do not care.

Good post!

[Der Blaue Engel]

604. Gee, who's recommending this thread? All of us Clinton supporters who don't exist?

I have very little interest in posting on DU anymore because of what it's become, but I thought it was important to chime in on this, regardless of the vicious, petty snarling it will induce simply because I support Senator Clinton for president.

I still haven't decided if I can bear to vote for Obama if he wins the nomination. I NEVER, ever thought I would say that about a presidential election. I have chastised and put people on ignore here for saying they won't vote for the nominee.

But someone or something, whether it's trolls or zealots, or mass hysteria has turned his candidacy of "hope" into hate. Deny it all you like. Claim it was the Clenis all you like (just like the freepers do). Pretend I'm a troll or a racist or that I just don't matter. I don't care. You know it; I know it; anyone who isn't in deep denial knows it: a large number of his supporters have crossed the line, and for what?

You could have won our votes. You really could have. I was an Edwards supporter, and when he dropped out I was evenly divided between which of the remaining two I preferred, as I wasn't terribly wild about either choice. But the vileness, the absolute vileness of the toxic dump that GDP (and other forums) has become sent me running into Clinton's camp in shock, disgust, sorrow, and frankly, fear for the future of this party.

Sure, I don't matter. I'm just some old, white broad who's voting with my vagina. Whatthefuckever.

I loved this place once. I considered so many of you family. Now, I can barely read the few forums that have not been poisoned. I feel truly heartbroken about this (go ahead, mock my emotions, too...it's "only a website"...we're not "real" people), and sad for the loss of those whom I considered, if not friends, people I dearly enjoyed the company of and whom I deeply admired. What happened to you? Do you even know what I'm talking about? :(

I'm still around. I'm not "boycotting" anything. But the incredible coming-together of amazing people that this place once was is gone. And I miss you all.

[Scriptor Ignotus]

618. once a nominee is decided

this place will revert back to its old self. you'll see.

[Der Blaue Engel]

638. It may appear to, but it's forever changed for me

I can't forget some of the ugly things said and done by people I once admired.

[Scriptor Ignotus]

690. not sure why you're following politics then

every single politician I can think of has let me down in one way or the other, even my man Obama. Best to learn to forgive and forget - you'll make yourself much happier.

Politics can bring out the best and worst in people, no?

[Der Blaue Engel]

693. You're right. I should go bury my head in the sand.

Or at the very least, I should cease having these silly emotions and caring about people.

[clydefrand]

635. I'm here with you. I'm one of those old, white broads, too.

I hate the way DU has become with the hostile, uncivilized comments made over and over by posters who favor the two candidates left running.

[geraldatwork]

605. Can't All Democrats Be Friends

There is constant bickering between Obama and Clinton supporters. The reality is their views are fairly similiar. Each is trying to win the nomination. In the end the ultimate goal is to not have a Rublican in the White House. Thats why I started this Group on Facebook. Any members of Facebook are welcome to join and show that we believe in unity.
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=7758634298&ref=mf

[Raine]

606. That's real intelligent

don't vote for your own best interest because of a candidate's supporters. :sarcasm: At least be honest and admit that under any circumstances you wouldn't vote for Obama, no one here is stupid enough to to believe that BS. :silly:

[populistdriven]

607. If you can't see how racist Hillary has been you are in denial.

If there is one thing that sets off progressives it is racism. And her campaign has been full of it. Sorry for the venom. Perhaps that was Hillary's strategy to lock in her hard core supporters while running such a negative campaign. Well it worked on some. You are one of them.

Big Deal. For you maybe. For me its sad you were so indoctrinated that you can't see the candidate and his surrounding crowd of millions of good decent people past the mouths of a few trolls.

[sueragingroz]

609. Clinton did not play the race card... Obama did

you can't wish that away. It's the truth.

I never ever thought that I'd want to turn the channel when a democrat was on t.v.... but there it is.

Great OP!

[ProSense]

611. .

Yes. She. Did.

[populistdriven]

612. if true (matter of debate) her response was overwhelmingly disproportionate and sustained for months

(see post 611 for debunking)

[maximusveritas]

610. Anyone else notice that these divisive posts tend to shoot up the Greatest list?

All you have to do is say you won't vote for the nominee or will vote for McCain and you are guaranteed about 100 recs.

This place has been over-run by trolls.

[Hissyspit]

630. This place has NOT been overrun by trolls!

Oh, wait... No. I'm wrong. It has been overrun by trolls.

Don't let anyone ever tell you I never admitted when I was wrong!

[Snarkoleptic]

617. Kick to finish reading later...holy shit.

[mcollier]

621. Democrats Won't Vote For McCain

Real Democrats realize the importance of a democratic president and congress and will not vote for a republican... Thank you for not supporting a continuation of the past 8 years...

Now that pretty much everybody has focused there attention on gas prices, food prices, housing prices and the terrible 401k's and other retirement savings losses, the choice is easy....


Visit www.barackobama.com

Leading to a better way for America... Please join US.

[mcollier]

622. Democrats Won't Vote For McCain

Real Democrats realize the importance of a democratic president and congress and will not vote for a republican... Thank you for not supporting a continuation of the past 8 years...

Now that pretty much everybody has focused there attention on gas prices, food prices, housing prices and the terrible 401k's and other retirement savings losses, the choice is easy....


Visit www.barackobama.com

Leading to a better way for America... Please join US.

[clydefrand]

619. I agree with you whole heartedly. I'm even thinking about

not voting at all this year. I can't stand to watch Obama either now because of the petty drivel that turns my stomach. Too much adoration for someone without the facts has turned me off. Both candidates have their faults. I've never seen the scathing comments about Obama as I have about Clinton. The comments that Bill Clinton has made were not racist...they were the truth. When he made his comment about his liking to see two candidates who love their country debate the issues, wasn't he supposed to say that about his wife. Why would he say that he would like to see Obama, who loved his country, debate McCain. He isn't supporting him, now is he? The nitpicking has made me sick to my stomach. How did the people on DU ever reach so low as to cause so much animosity among the posters on here?

[mythyc]

625. i love how your profile comment says impeach bush

but you're willing to twist and contort the truth of the B.S. issue so tightly that you'll advocate McSame continuing every bush trend imaginable. did you see the one about the child prostitution rings the Iraq war (which McLame wants to continue as is) has created ex nihilo? i'm not joking, here's the DU thread:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x113361

so spare me your mock indignation and reply genuinely to my response #173 above.... (pssst, i know you won't....)

[Tennessee Gal]

631. Excellent post.

My sentiments exactly.

[Connonym]

620. Who would expect you to vote for Obama when Hillary straight out said McCain is more qualified?

What damned rabbit hole have I fallen into? God can we please have John Edwards back? PLEASE?

[mythyc]

627. as one-sided as any other squinty deflector feigning mock indignation

<reposting this lest any Hillary shock and awe strategists miss it. keep evading. I'm waiting for just one reply....>

Obama's *supporters* turned the OP off, yet notice not a word on how Hillary in the flesh:

-- signed a pledge not to accept FL/MI (whoever says it was just campaigning is a liar; search google for crissakes, her statement the day of the DNC ruling was to honor the DNC nominating calendar, period) but then vilifies Obama daily for the DNC's standing by its word as if it's all his not even simply doing but conniving;
-- allowed Buffenbarger to introduce her publicly in Ohio with that disgusting tirade (prius-driving latte liberals etc...) but then raises holy hell over Samantha Power's private monster comment;
-- mocked Obama and anyone who supports him in rhode island with the celestial choirs farce;
-- at the Ohio debate asked if Obama wants a pillow;
-- dared the unthinkable on 60 minutes in saying Obama wasn't a muslim "as far as i know" (eff you hillary, and any supporter who doesn't decry this);
-- that ridiculous "shame on you" tirade when her mailers are equally or usually more scandalous;
-- pulls that niggling denounce and reject b.s. at the ohio debate and then takes geradline ferraro so casually and lightly, saying she didn't agree (DIDN'T AGREE?!) and it's important to stay on issues;
-- cried 10,000 rivers publicly over the plagiarism accusation yet is proven to lift lines left and right from dems and repugs alike, including:
-- playing the fear card like a Rethug in the 3 a.m. Texas ad;
-- has gracelessly skirted around congratulating Obama on any of his victories, while unleashing her minions to diminish each and every one of his as "not counting";
-- at least twice a week if not more finds a way to say McCain is a better candidate than Obama (you go, OP, on party loyalty, yeah get on with your bad self);
-- lies, lies, lies 4 times since Iowa about the sniper fire, then has the audacity to issue press releases about Obama's legitimate professor title; doesn't retract this attack once U.Chicago confirms the title;
-- said not a word against Carville calling Richardson Judas, and then renewing the smear a week later;
-- even manipulatively uses today's bowling joke to interject a smear that obama uses gutter politics....

hell, this is all out of the top of my head. there's so much more.

this OP has a bias---a gaping hole the size of the grand canyon bias. any one-sided sweeping generalization attack will. I have zero respect for you if you "have the truth on ignore", i.e. throw damning final accusations simply at his oh so vague "supporters" when you know well and good hillary has personally done far more and far far worse. i know this falls on deaf ears, used to the crickets coming out to play when facts come up in response to limp, generic opinions aimed to take out the party in a friendly fire incident. anything of this OP's ilk is attempting that exactly whether they admit it or not. so I write to those who either lurking or not who have sense to see things as they really are rather than as they want to prefigure and broad-brush them. who don't want to see more of that image up in Hnmnf's post (#128) anymore, and would rather suicide bomb the party, America, and progressive-democratic principles than admit that their precious Hillary's not mother Theresa reincarnated....

whatever :eyes: go back to lurking in your own wasted mock-indignation. it's better served on DUmp....

and Bill Clinton (love how SC was meaningless b/c Jesse Jackson won it twice) is, if not a racist, a racialist. Both manipulate identity for political ends, and both are beneath contempt. If you're in that much denial over him, what ya gotta say about Geraldine Ferraro hmmm?

[susanwy]

678. Okay I'll bite

I'm not a Clinton or Obama supporter but:

-- signed a pledge not to accept FL/MI ^^Honestly, if the shoe were on the other foot do you really think Obama wouldn't be fighting for those delegates?

-- allowed Buffenbarger to introduce her publicly in Ohio *snip* but then raises holy hell over Samantha Power's private monster comment; ^^Yawn, who cares, I doubt the general electorate will care either. And for the record Samantha should have stayed, the right wing will have much bigger arrows.

-- mocked Obama and anyone who supports him in rhode island with the celestial choirs farce; ^^uh? - again who cares

-- at the Ohio debate asked if Obama wants a pillow; ^^lighten up, can't you take a joke? - she was playing off the SNL skit. I spewed my wine!

-- dared the unthinkable on 60 minutes in saying Obama wasn't a muslim "as far as i know" ^^okay, she was off base here. But, frankly the religion of either candidate doesn't concern me, all religions make me want to puke (I know I'm in the minority), and I'm sick to death of politicians pandering to any religion.

-- that ridiculous "shame on you" tirade when her mailers are equally or usually more scandalous; ^^huh? - are you new to politics or what? Better grow a thicker skin for the general.

-- pulls that niggling denounce and reject b.s. at the ohio debate and then takes geradline ferraro so casually and lightly, saying she didn't agree (DIDN'T AGREE?!) and it's important to stay on issues;
^^Ferraro's comments were not racist, period, they were about the demographics of the electorate. The MSM loves people like you who drink their racist koolaid and drive up their ratings.

-- cried 10,000 rivers publicly over the plagiarism accusation yet is proven to lift lines left and right from dems and repugs alike, including:
^^Okay your right here, she though since the MSM sunk Biden with plagiarism, perhaps it would stick to Obama. Her staff underestimated the love fest of the MSM with Obama.

-- playing the fear card like a Rethug in the 3 a.m. Texas ad;
^^That ad is nothing compared to what the Rethugs will run. And if you think a part of the American public can't be frightened into a republican vote, see 2004. Plus, the threat IS real, and some think Hillary has a better grasp of foreign policy issues. I actually lean against Obama here, I've seen that a poor grasp of history, social norms, regional conflicts etc., etc., can wreck a foreign policy. I'm not convinced Obama understands the Middle East all that well. Its not experience, or judgment, its knowledge and the ability to examine the realities of a situation, not just *hope*. I've read his position papers on the Middle East and frankly, they are a bit thin.

-- has gracelessly skirted around congratulating Obama on any of his victories, while unleashing her minions to diminish each and every one of his as "not counting";
^^I've not seen Hillary personally be ungracious about Obama's victories (don't confuse the candidate with her supporters). However, winning the democratic voters in a RED state will not necessarily translate into a democratic victory in the GE. Hillary HAS won the big delegate swing states, but that may not be enough to win the GE either. I think this is why you see many Super Delegates on the fence. They can do the GE math. This is not diminishing his victories, its just fact. It is why a combined ticked would be better, otherwise I think we're *screwed* with either Obama or Clinton. And don't give me the "youth" vote argument. They were supposed to come out for Kerry too, but the got drunk and forgot. Even the Obama girl couldn't be bothered to vote in her primary. I know their heart is in the right place, really its great that he is galvanizing this notoriously unreliable demographic (it is a reason I like Obama), but we won't know until the GE if they will really show up.

-- at least twice a week if not more finds a way to say McCain is a better candidate than Obama (you go, OP, on party loyalty, yeah get on with your bad self);
^^Yea, here I agree I've been turned off by that argument too. I rather see both of them attacking McLame instead of each other.

-- lies, lies, lies 4 times since Iowa about the sniper fire, then has the audacity to issue press releases about Obama's legitimate professor title; doesn't retract this attack once U.Chicago confirms the title;
^^Again, are you new to politics? ALL politicians lie from dog catcher to POTUS(or *embellish*). What worries me is I know most of Hillary's lies, I don't know all of Obama's and I'm sure the Rethugs will find them for me. And another thing, I'm sick of Obama supporters acting like Obama is new to politics. He comes from CHICAGO politics, arguably the most corrupt of local gov political systems. Oh, he learned how to play the game, and obviously learned well, as evidenced by his well run (but not always clean) campaign. I believe the Clinton's underestimated this fact and ran a pretty clean campaign before Iowa. Can you explain all the 17-20 yr olds Obama bussed in across the Illinois border to the Iowa caucuses? There are numerous examples of his caucus voters being rude, intimidating, disruptive, and worst of all not qualified as a voters in the caucus for that state. This of course comes from other candidate supporters, but with the accounts being similar across all the caucus states, I think there might be a nugget of truth there.

-- said not a word against Carville calling Richardson Judas, and then renewing the smear a week later;
^^Richardson was WRONG in his endorsement, he should have stayed neutral. NM primary was won by Hillary. You can't have Obama saying the Super delegates have to stay loyal to the vote in their states and then turn around and praise Richardson!?! Can't you see a blatant ploy for a job in the Obama administration? Plus, Richardson wouldn't have a job if it weren't for the Clinton's, he played both sides of the fence until he decided that Obama had the better chance of winning the nomination. I have no respect for him AT ALL. He, Dodd, Kerry, Edwards..they all should have stayed neutral and brokered this from the inside. The campaign would be less nasty if the big dogs in the democratic party had maintained some power over the candidates, i.e. they would have had the credibility to now call for Clinton to step aside or to call both into a back room and remind them they should talk about the ISSUES or remind the MEDIA that they should be covering the ISSUES. Thank you Biden for having more sense then the rest of them.

-- even manipulatively uses today's bowling joke to interject a smear that obama uses gutter politics.... ^^well as a bowler who used to carry a 173 average, he did really suck at bowling. Again, lighten up, it was a joke.

We will see if you attack me or reason with me, which was the point of this thread in the first place. Unlike the original post, I don't endorse either candidate, but I will vote bite my lib and support, work for and vote for the one who is on the ballot in Nov. Even in a RED state that will surely vote for McLame.

:toast:

[mythyc]

681. i'll be glad to respond back when

... when you reply to the main point of my post, clearly and unequivocally. my argument was not about the parts but the whole. i'll be happy, pleased in fact, to address the parts of your counter-sub-argument(s) when I know what conclusion they serve as premises for.

So do you agree with the OP or not? is your judgment in accord with everything she said? If so, why, coherently and cohesively? If not, what context do you see my rebuttal in then? If in between, be clear and final about where you do stand on the point of order.

Before you say you were, it's not nearly enough for me to hear that you'll be voting whichever way the wind blows. This isn't about your individual vote but a condemnation on the entire (DU) base for BO on the one hand and on the democratic party from there. In an attempt to sabotage the election no less, thus also constituting an attack on progressive values and platforms period. This whole thread attempts to prove, more like demand, that Obama's support base --- check that, his internet support base ---- check that, his DU support (All of us!!!! gasp =o ) --- have effectively and intentionally kamikazed the democratic party, and with it America. and That this base is solely irresponsible for all bad faith and bad blood perceived out there. That all the sewage and waste runs downstream, so to speak. Every person supporting the OP affirms that (check them, they all do), and postures that Obama's supporters will be willfully responsible for a mass defection to McCain. I contested that, so before I reply I want to know what I'm replying to. do you agree?

...

ok, can't resist one reply (side note as this point, i swear ;) ). Ferraro is a racist; even if someone somehow twists equivocations out of that, Ferraro's whole ridiculous farce ("Obama's attacking me to get to you Hillary" give it up :eyes: ) is the most contemptible thing I've ever seen a Democrat do. couldn't help but let that slip....

[Neecy]

628. What total BS

If you base your presidential vote on what a few strangers say on a bulletin board then you have problems you need to deal with. Grow up.

[GeorgeGist]

629. Glad to hear you've finally kicked the yellowdog ...

habit.

[trashcanistanista]

632. If you can't vote for a democrat in the

general, I have news for you, you are not a democrat. You need to realize that and move on. This site is for democrats.

[Missouri Blue]

633. NO CANNIBALISM ALLOWED!

Shame on you! Are you going to give the presidency to McCain, who promises to be Bush + Senility, because you're being a fan instead of a constituent? Both Hillary and Obama are strong candidates. Listen to what you're saying: it's like expressing that a vote for Nader is more principled than a vote for Gore. We all know how that ended up. If you vote "none of the above" your expressing no objection to McCain.

Really, it's far more important to express yourself in the part of the struggle where the fault line is deepest. Republicans are right that there's a culture war. They have their own rifts in their party, and they are going to forget about them and vote for McCain.

Don't get caught up in the personal battle and the personalities promoted or attacked. You have two people of massive egos both of them thinking that they are totally qualified for the most powerful job on earth, but also both thinking that they are the very right people to turn around the most radical crisis the country has faced since 1930. Only one thing is standing in the way, and that's the other massive ego.

Of course the attacks are going to be lowdown and dirty. You have to learn as much from the attacker as the attacked. Just take notes and remember what's important.

Meanwhile, the rest of us should be doing our best to keep these two (or two and a half) candidates sane, not go insane with them.

[Symarip]

634. So let me understand this

Because our candidate is so popular he's not going to win?

Maybe we should fight them over there instead of over here.

[Moochy]

636. Obama's cultists on ponies hurt my widdo feelings

:puke:

[workinclasszero]

637. Yawn... (nt)

[HopeforChange]

639. Quick Quick call the WAAAAAAAAAAAAAbulance.

I too am a dedicated democrat but I am not crying or getting my feelings hurt. Sticks and stones will hurt my bones but words will never hurt me. Didn't your mommy teach you that?

I don't like that angry rhetoric either but it does not sway me. You sound like you are panicking because somebody might loose.

I live in Texas and know many yellow dog democrats. Alot of them do support Clinton.

But I have one question. Why don't the Clinton people show up to caucus. The Obama people care enough to stand 5 or even 10 hours waiting to vote for Obama. The Clinton voters no shows are much higher then the Obama numbers when it takes a little effort and commitment.

Guess we're just more fired up.

As far as negativity goes. I am shocked at the manipulative lies coming from the Clinton campaign. An Old Bill's language is the one that has carried the racial undertones.

Obama has tried to run a clean campaign.

Sorry you're baby is loosing but don't get mad at us for it.

[JVS]

674. With the number of recs that this thread has, an ordinary waaahmbulance won't be enough!

We'll nee this one

[riverwalker]

643. oh phuleeese

"you made me do it"
Isn't that the standard excuse of wife beaters?
Grow the fuck up

[Name removed]

645. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

654. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Eric Condon]

646. You remind me of Ren and the toothbrush in "Space Madness." "YOU...FORCED me to use it!"

Seriously, not voting for a candidate because you don't like their supporters? If you don't agree with Obama's policies and you can't in good conscience vote for him, then fine. But don't blame his supporters.

I won't vote for Clinton under any circumstances, but that has nothing to do with her supporters. It has everything to do with her and her pandering, her triangulating, her race-baiting, her condescension, her unearned sense of entitlement, and above all else, her complete inability to take a stand on anything and stand up to Bu$hCo and their illegal war.

That, and the fact that I'm also a huge, inveterate sexist. :sarcasm: :eyes:

[amelia]

658. Sarcasm, when I say I won't vote for your candidate but what do

you call it when you say "I won't vote for Clinton under any circumstances, but that has nothing to do with her supporters." I guess your answer would be "that's not the same thing". How is this helping your candidate get my vote?

[Moochy]

664. Good sense

[Eric Condon]

670. I've read this multiple times and it doesn't make any sense.

My point was that Clinton supporters have nothing to do with why I'm not supporting Clinton, whereas for you, it seems like the main reason you're not supporting Obama is that you don't like his supporters, which is frankly a pretty ridiculous reason not to support a candidate. Supporting one candidate over the other based on issues, and opposing one candidate because of his supporters are indeed "not the same thing."

At least I think that's the point you were trying to make. Or something. Whatever.

[goldcanyonaz]

694. They don't seem to understand, but they will one day.

[Moochy]

647. We've beat your lousy corporatist candidate into the dirt?

Is that what we've done?

"there are many, many people who feel the same way I do"

Oh I know... I saw the end of the Blues Brothers...

[FogerRox]

649. I vote for candidates that "get it". You obviously dont get it.

[Wash. state Desk Jet]

666. Indeed F.D.R.

And he came up the ladder of experience. And he always knew that it is better to know than it is to think that you know!
Which is to say that one cannot possibly be ready befor one is ready.Believe it or not.

[Name removed]

661. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ekwhite]

665. Shorter amelia

I hate you all - you're mean!

[JVS]

675. Correction

"I hate you all - you're mean! McCain 08"

[Butch350]

683. Excuse Me...

But could you please list some of the venom/insults remarks that you are referring to in this thread.

Your looking at these threads thru rose-colored (no pun) glasses. Please just list a few attacks by the Obama Camp
and not the people in these forums.

[Lucky 13]

695. Patrick Leahy is not a "fatcat". But keep going with the slander of good Democrats...

... it's really working for you.

If you can believe and defend her bullshit in the face of all evidence, then I think you have the wrong party.

You take your dolly and run on home. We'll see how you feel in November.