McCain agrees with Obama on right-wing idea for teachers

[jackson_dem]

-snip-

Today, McCain also ventured into some educational policy areas –- albeit relatively safe territory for a conservative candidate -– calling for merit pay for teachers and school choice.

"We should reward the best with merit pay, and encourage teachers who have lost their focus on the children they teach to find another line of work," McCain said. He then added that the country should encourage "military veterans to enter the teaching profession," because the honor they learn in the armed services are also important for children.

http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/04/01/847461.aspx

Obama and McCain are for it, Clinton and 99% of Democrats are against it. To understand why Democrats oppose it:

-snip-

"Teachers understand that politically motivated panaceas such as merit pay and eliminating tenure do nothing to improve teacher quality," said NEA President Reg Weaver. "Our members are open to alternatives, but we will always oppose quick fixes designed to weaken the voice of teachers and effectiveness of education employees in all jobs."

The Public Agenda study looked at three key issues currently under consideration at the local, state, and national levels.

*
Merit Pay: Public Agenda found that most teachers oppose merit pay - based on favoritism and test scores - but many support other non-traditional compensation plans, including extra pay for extra work, incentives to work in schools in need of improvement, and incentives for National Board certification. None of those alternatives are merit pay, and NEA and its affiliates have supported those proposals.

http://www.nea.org/newsreleases/2003/nr030604.html

[anonymous171]

1. Hillary praised McCain the candidate and his experience platform.

You lose.

[jackson_dem]

2. What policies does she agree with McCain on?

Is she pushing right-wing ideas like Obama and McCain?

Every sane person in the world knows McCain is experienced. Only in the "netroots" was it a shocker to learn that McCain has experience. Presidential candidates usually do...

[TheWraith]

4. Wars. They agree on wars. Also on how great lobbyists are.

And it wasn't acknowledging that McCain had experience. It was saying McCain was qualified and Obama wasn't. That's about two words shy of an endorsement.

[mtnsnake]

15. Give us all a break with that worn-out lie. Hillary detests war, but nice try with yet another smear

[BootinUp]

26. idiotic claim nt

[Skittles]

3. no WE ALL LOSE

with JUVENILE PIECE OF SHIT REPONSES LIKE THAT

[TheWraith]

5. Hey, here's an idea. Why don't you not try spamming smears for, say, 24 hours?

I guess your head would explode.

If you'd bothered to actually find out the facts, you would know that Obama's recommendation is not the same as McCain's. What Obama said was that teachers who excel in helping their students should be rewarded, but that that assessment shouldn't be based only on test scores. God help us if it's a controversial idea that better teachers deserve more money.

Also, it's sad that some people now see blindly pandering to interest groups--even mostly beneficial ones like the NEA--as a good thing.

[mtnsnake]

16. The cold hard truth has always hurt you the most, hasn't it Wraith.

Cry us all a river why dont ya

[hell-bent]

35. What did Obama say the assessment of teachers who

"excel" in helping their students should be based on if not the test scores? That's what the proponents of merit pay always want as a criterion. Could Obama be pandering to that element that believe teachers are unproductive and over-paid?

[scheming daemons]

6. "99% of Democrats are against it."

You sure about that?


99% of Democrats don't agree on ANYTHING.


More fuzzy math from Hillary supporters......

[snooper2]

54. They went to the same school as Huckabee...

1 + 4 + 8 = 908,000

:rofl:

[jackson_dem]

7. Obama is also "open" to privatizing schools

More "Change" rethugs can believe in!

[bowens43]

9. give it up. Hillary is through.

enter recovery or something. your baseless attacks aren't changing any minds. what's funny is that you don't even understand why hillary lost.

[jackson_dem]

24. Baseless attack? These are Obama's positions

Put down the kool aid and look at what the savior actually stands for...

[hell-bent]

40. Lost?

Have you received some message from an unknown source that Obama now has the proper amount of delegates to be declared the winner? Adjust the tinfoil on that hat of yours.

[hell-bent]

37. I'll bet he is for more home schooling

supported with public money. Could he be also for more support for "faith-based schools"?

[dkf]

8. We should pay teachers for every kid they have taught that graduates from High School.

Today I read that half of the kids in certain big cities do not graduate. That is an absolute disgrace.

I know teachers feel invested in their kids, but if every teacher gave reinforcement to motivate and keep their kids in school, wouldn't that be wonderful?

Also, that would lead to a definite pay increase the longer you are a teacher.

[kevinmc]

10. Nevada Democrats Offer Merit Pay Plan .. Part of the 1%

Democratic political leaders in Nevada seized the reins of the state's education debate in mid-April with a bold proposal to change how teachers are paid.

On April 18, the Nevada Democratic Party introduced a plan to combine $2,000 across-the-board teacher salary increases with pay incentives for individual teachers and schools that raise students' test scores.

"We will invest in our children and our teachers while we hold everyone in the education system accountable," said Nevada Democratic Party spokeswoman Kirsten Searer. "We will expect measurable results to prove that Nevadans' hard-earned dollars are being put to good use and our students are truly prepared for today's work world."

http://www.heartland.org/Article.cfm?artId=19265

[MadHound]

11. Hillary voted for and supported NCLB

Her latest rhetoric on the matter states that she now wants to "reform" NCLB, rather than killing it, which is what should be done.

[LisaM]

23. Untrue; she recently said we need to ditch NCLB

a bunch of people, including Ted Kennedy, voted for it. It was unfunded to begin with (which probably is part of the reason for the dropout rates), but it hasn't worked. I'm sure like many Bush policies, it was presented as one thing, enforced for another. If something works, you scrap it.

The real problem is this "teaching to the test" crapola.

[jackson_dem]

25. 47 of 49 Democrats voted for Ted Kennedy's bill

But the Obama swift boat squads never mention that and act as if Edwards and Clinton were out on the deep end on what appeared to be a good idea seven years ago. What was Obama's position on NCLB at the time by the way? I have never heard about it...

[susankh4]

12. This problem has been brewing for a while.

I am honestly surprised it has gotten so little attention.It represents a stark difference between Ms. Clinton and Mr. Obama. But they never mention it. And the press, as usual, is falling down on the job.

It will be very unwise for the Dems to diss the NEA in the fall. They are stalwart in our corner. Year after year.

[jackson_dem]

28. Yup and notice something about where they differ

They rarely do but in the instances where they do notice who is almost always taking the more progressive position? Too bad the blogosphere isn't bothering to look at the details...

[DerekJ]

13. Goodness jackson_dem!!

Take a 5 minute break from bashing Obama..You know let's make a deal. How about 70% bashing Obama, 20% praising Hillary, and 10% having some fun, you know throw a joke or two for a change.

[susankh4]

14. School Vouchers

Here is part two of this problem:

http://nyceducator.com/2008/02/obama-supports-vouchers.html

Again, where is the mainstream press coverage?

And why don't the candidates address this issue in their debates?

[stahbrett]

18. He says he's open to the possibility of vouchers *IF* research shows that they work

If vouchers do NOT work, then what are you afraid of exactly?

[susankh4]

19. I am afraid of the NEA turning their backs on the Dem party....

and, if you want to win the GE, you (he?) should be too!

[jackson_dem]

27. Some research already does show vouchers "working" and Obama knows it

Hiding behind research is a smokescreen to keep the true believers from asking questions that may lead them off the reservation... There is ample, although conflicting, research on this issue. The research can easily be cherry picked to justify either position and Obama knows it. So why hasn't he told us where he stands? The research exists. Which will Obama use, pro-privatization or pro-public education? Let's "hope" he does the right thing because he won't tell us where he stands. :eyes:

[dsc]

29. give me any proposition

and I can design a study to support it.

[stahbrett]

31. My Proposition: All studies are useless

:D

[mtnsnake]

17. K&R because it's the cold hard truth

Thank you, jackson_dem for being an oasis of truth the middle of a desert of shit. Your posts are always refreshing and spot on. :thumbsup:

[GodlessBiker]

20. I support merit pay in all jobs. People who do better should get paid more.

[hell-bent]

38. And how is your occupation evaluated?

Give us some idea how it is determined that you deserve a wage increase?

[LWolf]

21. One of the reasons I harbor strong antipathy for Obama

is his right-wing positions on my profession. It's been out there all along. I don't consider a vote for someone who will actively work against my profession to be a "compromise."

[Hart2008]

22. K & R

[northzax]

30. I personally find it amusing

that mccain made this particular speech at a school (Washington episcopal) that pays teachers less than neighboring public schools. Oh yes, the dirty little secret, teaching is one of the few professions where you make more in the public sector. It's all about working conditions. And before anyone asks, yes, I work for an episcopal school, my father ran an episcopal school, my mother teaches at an episcopal school, and I know full well what WES pays their teachers.

[madrchsod]

32. my son had a teacher that had to have another teacher

explain the english assignment to him...yes my son`s teacher did`t have a clue when it came to teaching english. one year in 5th grade being taught english by this guy...

i think there needs to be reforms...

[Not the Only One]

48. It's a sad day when you almost feel scared to tell the truth

There are a lot of unqualified teachers. Just fixing that problem would be a start. We should raise pay for people who score high on tests on various subjects, especially the ones they are asked to teach. I recall when I was in high school that our choir teacher didn't understand basic high school math and said she didn't need to because she taught music. Every teacher in high school should be able to have competence in high school-level English and math. My parents said all of their teachers did when they were in high school.

[malik flavors]

33. Obama just said on Hardball tonight that he is not for merit pay, so whats the point of this thread?

[anonymous171]

42. ^^Really!? EVERYONE LOOK HERE

[dsc]

34. honestly this is a real problem for me

Best case he is talking out of both sides of him mouth, implying he is for what most people consider merit pay when he isn't. Worst case he is really for merit pay and is trying to convince us he isn't.

[mtnsnake]

36. This is why most teacher's unions, from what I understand, support Hillary

They do not go along with Obama's rightwing ideas of restructuring how teachers get paid.

[jackson_dem]

39. Yup. It is also why Obama runs on slogans like "hope and change" and not on substance

He is not (at least now now. He once was before the chameleon became a lot more conservative based on the needs to appeal to a larger, more diverse electorate as his career progressed...) what most of his diehard progressive supporters think he is.

[jackson_dem]

41. Obama/McCain: against a trade agreement timeout

Clinton/labor, for it.

[susankh4]

43. This thread deserves another kick!

It's important. And we aren't hearing enough about it!

:kick:

[Vinca]

44. Did you hear Obama respond to the question about merit pay

on Hardball last night? He is not in favor of "merit" pay, at least in the way it is currently structured. He does not favor teaching to the test and basing pay on test scores of students. He does favor more pay for teachers who attain additional training and expertise in their field. He also favors an overall raise in pay for teachers.

[cali]

45. As usual the OP is peddling mendacious shit and it stinks

Obama is NOT for merit pay based on favoritism and test scores and he made that quite clear last night on College Bowl.


The OP should stop pushing his false stories day in and day out. It's despicable.

[dsc]

47. as usual he tries to have it both ways

He uses a term, merit pay, which as a specific meaning and then claims he means something else. Then both sides wind up thinking he agrees with them. I am not willing to trust his double talk on something that is so important to me. On edit here is what I mean.

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/8335627.html

Illinois Sen. Barack Obama today endorsed the idea of merit pay for teachers before an audience hostile to the idea, the giant National Education Association, but he softened the blow by telling the union's national assembly that he would not use "arbitrary tests" to link pay to performance.
"I think there should be ways for us to work with the NEA, with teachers' unions, to figure out a way to measure success," Obama told a crowd of about 9,000 at the Pennsylvania Convention Center. "I want to work with teachers. I'm not going to do it too you, I'm going to do it with you."

It was a measure of Democrat Obama's rock-star appeal that he did not draw any hisses with the pronouncement, and even got scattered applause. Obama's endorsement of merit pay for teachers was the first note deviating from the promise-anything tenor of visits by several presidential candidates to the union this week.

end of quote

This is nice, vague, double talk. There are only two ways for merit pay to work. Either, you use statistics (test scores, grades, etc) or through evaluations. Both have serious problems. Management at schools can be intensely personal. We have very legit reasons to distruct any merit pay scheme. Also, our salaries, unlike in the private sector, are public records. Thus merit pay is really a way to publicly chastise us.

and to illustrate my other point

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2007/07/obama-and-merit.html

His break from liberal orthodoxy is already making waves. The WSJ casts partisan scorn:

So far Mr. Obama has been shrewd in setting himself off from left-wing orthodoxy, though perhaps mainly as a matter of style. But if he is going to ask voters to consider the Presidency an entry-level position, he'll need to do more than dress up liberal commonplaces as bold truth-telling.
Nice open mind there, eh? Left Coast blogger Darren thinks it's a very shrewd move. Is the NEA going to endorse a Republican anyway? Lewis Solomon sees Obama catching a wave:

n one national program, the number of teachers who support performance pay has almost doubled in many states after a few years of trying it.

No matter. Many critics remain unconvinced - offended, it seems, by the very notion of connecting teacher pay to student achievement. We have to ask these naysayers this question: if adults (teachers) should never be affected by how well children (students) do in school, does that mean that teachers are not responsible for student learning?

Performance-pay opponents are running out of arguments and allies. School reformers must seize the moment.
For the record, I've long believed teachers should get better pay for better exam results, and bad ones should be fired. Eduwonk is not as convinced that teachers are ready for the move though. Some are already whining.

Permalink :: Trackback (1) :: Sphere It!

Here he is getting the benefits of this. Now, go ahead and tell me his endorsement of merit pay isn't undercutting teachers.

[TexasLady]

50. I heard the exact same thing.

twice, because I recorded it. He is NOT for merit pay, and cited that for special education teachers, that could be unfair.

[Pavlovs DiOgie]

46. On Hardball last night

Obama said he's not for 'merit pay' for teachers, but rather what already exists which is pay increases based on teachers continuing education and years of service, not pay based on test scores. He clearly outlined the problems with that (ie. special ed and ELL teachers clearly would get screwed). I honestly don't know if he's recently changed his tune, but I can't ever recall hearing him say he was for merit pay. In fact, as a teacher, I've listened closely to Obama's ideas on education and I think he absolutely has it right - higher pay for teachers, more pressure on parents to do their part (turn off the tv, etc.), and lots of early childhood education programs because often kids (especially inner city kids) start school already behind, and will stay behind for the rest of their school career.

[TexasLady]

51. apparently no amount of proof with video

is going to change closed minds.

that's too bad.

[WinkyDink]

49. Obama unequivocally said he is NOT for merit pay as proposed, based on TEST SCORES.

He IS for teachers who earn Master Teacher status (via degrees or some other method) be paid more.

[Maribelle]

52. Obama has stated he is for merit pay and wants to revise NCLB.

Again, Obama proves how much of the old-school of political thought he truly is.

Regardless of how Obama wants to twist the words, most teachers, principals, superintendents, school districts, and state educations systems are against both.

On merit pay - - - no one has been able to come up with a formula to objectively measure a teacher's 'merit', not even the most advanced doctors of education. It can only be done subjectively, and therefore, is highly vulnerable to favoritism and perhaps corruption.

(Why on earth does this remind me of the teacher retirement system that is a play at the hands on the chicago combine?)

On NCLB - - - Hillary wants to throw it out, period. NCLB is a hydra that has stolen perhaps billions from the education of our precious children.


I personally believe most teachers deserve extra large apples made of solid gold.

[zulchzulu]

53. Info for Obama's site

On merit pay, which he is for:
http://www.phillyburbs.com/pb-dyn/news/103-07062007-1373611.html

• Recruit Teachers: Obama will create new Teacher Service Scholarships that will cover four years of undergraduate or two years of graduate teacher education, including high-quality alternative programs for mid-career recruits in exchange for teaching for at least four years in a high-need field or location.
  
• Prepare Teachers: Obama will require all schools of education to be accredited. He will also create a voluntary national performance assessment so we can be sure that every new educator is trained and ready to walk into the classroom and start teaching effectively. Obama will also create Teacher Residency Programs that will supply 30,000 exceptionally well-prepared recruits to high-need schools.
  
• Retain Teachers: To support our teachers, Obama's plan will expand mentoring programs that pair experienced teachers with new recruits. He will also provide incentives to give teachers paid common planning time so they can collaborate to share best practices.
  
• Reward Teachers: Obama will promote new and innovative ways to increase teacher pay that are developed with teachers, not imposed on them. Districts will be able to design programs that reward accomplished educators who serve as a mentor to new teachers with a salary increase. Districts can reward teachers who work in underserved places like rural areas and inner cities. And if teachers consistently excel in the classroom, that work can be valued and rewarded as well.
  

http://www.barackobama.com/issues/education/#teachers

[CitizenRob]

55. My parents are teachers.

And I personally find their mindless adherence to the "merit pay is bad" mantra to be repulsive.

My Mom is a Hillary supporter for no other reason than that Hillary has a vagina and mom considers herself a feminist. So, I guess expecting critical thinking isn't an option.