IA debate on 01/04/04 - Why is Clark opting out?

[Hawkeye-X]

In my view, it looks REALLY bad for Clark not to participate in a nationally televised debate. Is he afraid that he'll flop? I've heard from a post that one Clark campaign insider has spent so much time cleaning up Clark's gaffe, that if he does it again, he's done for...

Yes, I know Clark isn't campaigning in IA, but this is a nationally televised debate for crissake (CSPAN)

So please indulge me on why Clark is opting out on Sunday's debate.

For those who ask for proof, here's a copy of Clark's campaign schedule for 01/04/04

http://clark04.com/schedule/campaign/

Sunday, January 4

Meet the Press
Clark will be on Meet the Press this Sunday 8:30am EST

That's it.

Hawkeye-X

[poopyjr]

1. Um, because he's not campaigning there?

Just a hunch

[goobergunch]

4. It's a nationally televised debate

I assuming he is campaiging somewhere in the U.S.

[Pavlovs DiOgie]

9. Neither is Lieberman...

but Lieberman is participating in the debate.

I find it curious as well. Even if many people don't watch the debate, there will surely be coverage on the news. The 'best' sound bytes are always shown and discussed. Why not show up and hopefully get some free media coverage from it? It makes no sense to me to pass up free publicity.

[JI7]

2. Clark isn't competing in iowa

he isn't competing in the iowa caucus. i think they said because he entered the race late, he is focusing on new hampshire.

[TexasSissy]

3. Who cares if YOU think it looks bad. You're not voting for him, are you?

[wndycty]

5. Much ado about nothing. . .

. . .I am not sure if you realize this but the national championship in college football and the first round of the NFL playoffs are Sunday and they only people paying attention (outside of the activist community) are the fine folks in Iowa where Clark is not running. No big risk.

[TrueAmerican]

8. Sorry, but the National Champions were at the Rose Bowl

Sunday's game determines the BCS Champions.

[wndycty]

10. LOL--You get my drift. . .

No one will be watching outside of Iowa and the activists.

[ignatiusr]

17. yep

I don't think many people will be watching, since the Sugar Bowl is in prime time.

[Green4Dean]

113. Clark is running for VP

No need to tangle with the guy who will be on the top of ticket....:hi:

[Renew Deal]

117. lol

and I thought this one was dead. Oh well.

[mzmolly]

11. Much ado about nothing?

To get to the "championship game" you have to play in regular season.

The folks paying attention are *cough* (primary voters) who Clark should be trying to reach right now. :hi:

[oasis]

42. Dean will have his hands full with a scrappy *cough* "minor" candidate

That'll top the action of the national football championship.

[windansea]

62. DK is the kind that scare me in a fight

short...quick...and venemous if pissed!!

[oasis]

68. Dean would be smart to defuse DK by offering a public apology on stage.

[windansea]

6. I don't believe you can be in this debate

if you are not in the Iowa caucus

good try though!!

[mzmolly]

14. Any proof of this?

nice try yourself! :)

[windansea]

23. no proof

but expect that's what the editor of the DesMoines Register would tell you if you asked

[mzmolly]

40. Alllllrighty then!

:freak:

If it were true, perhaps Clark should/would mention such a thing on, oh say the blog, orrrr perhaps the Clark04 website?! But, apparently I have to subscribe to the DeMoines register to get that information? Doesn't sound like good campaign management to me. :shrug:

I'll believe that Clark has other reasons for not showing up, until I'm shown otherwise.

[windansea]

48. I think Clark is smart

and staying out of the circular firing squad

he's more into one on one debates

[mzmolly]

61. Gosh what a great strategy, I think they should all do it.

:eyes: ;)

[goobergunch]

16. Wrong, see post #13 (n/t)

[JNelson6563]

25. *bzzzzzzzz* Wrong!

But thanks for playing! :hi:

[windansea]

34. heh heh

ok so I was wrong...what are you guys worried about anyway??

actually it's good Clark won't be there cuz its going to be a flamefest with Dean for dinner...

Clark will appear presidential by his absence

:hi:

[Name removed]

57. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[windansea]

63. glad to make you laugh!!

ever here of the rope a dope strategy??

[windansea]

43. bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzt

guess I was right after all...by invitation only!!


:bounce:

[Lefta Dissenter]

51. windansea,

are you WAFFLING??? :D You're starting to sound like a supporter of .... no, I guess I won't say it... I don't want a spanking to start off my New Year. :spank:

[windansea]

56. the fact that I was originally correct

has evolved...:thumbsup:

[Lefta Dissenter]

60. But of COURSE! :)

:bounce: :toast: :bounce:

[maddezmom]

38. is it by invite only and he didn't get an invite?

Register debates a long tradition


Claflin
By BLAIR CLAFLIN
Register Politics Editor

The Des Moines Register is once again sponsoring a presidential candidate debate, building on a more than 20-year tradition.

The Register has invited the Democrats who have traveled to Iowa in 2003 to participate in a debate Jan. 4, 2004 at 2 p.m. The debate will be held at Iowa Public Television's Maytag Auditorium and will be broadcast statewide by IPTV.

Here's a quick look at past events:

<snip>

here's the link
http://desmoinesregister.com/extras/politics/caucus2004/debatehistory.html

[mzmolly]

64. Where does it say he wasn't invited? Clark traveled to Iowa in 2003

"The Register has invited the Democrats who have traveled to Iowa in 2003 to participate in a debate Jan. 4, 2004 at 2 p.m. The debate will be held at Iowa Public Television's Maytag Auditorium and will be broadcast statewide by IPTV."

....

"Iowa City, IA - Wesley Clark’s campaign travels have only just begun. Friday the retired general heads to Iowa to speak to students at the University of Iowa Law School."September ~ 2003

http://www.katv.com/news/stories/0903/103162.html

[maddezmom]

65. that's why I asked the question

Was it by invite only?

[windansea]

66. yikes..

we are arguing over a debate invitation now??

Clarks not gonna be there...ok??

get over it....deal with it...or keep chewing on it

no meat on this bone :)

[mzmolly]

71. Clark *is* going to be there?

:shrug:

[zulchzulu]

7. Is Lieberman participating?

I know he pulled out of Iowa like Clark did. I don't feel like going to his site to find out...

[Hawkeye-X]

13. Yup

Lieberman pulled out of IA, and he's still participating..

http://www.joe2004.com/site/Calendar?view=Detail&id=3642&whence=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.joe2004.com%2Fsite%2FPageServer%3Fpagename%3Dnews_moreevents

Now I got to take a shower...

Hawkeye-X

[JNelson6563]

15. Yes, Lieberman is participating

Clark is not. I see this as a missed opportunity for some national exposure.

Julie

[lurk_no_more]

45. Unlike lieberman

Clark doesn't want or need to throw dirt.

I'm a Clark supporter, but I'll watch just to see who gets the most dirt?


” JAFO”

[ignatiusr]

12. It's certainly not because of "gaffes"

In light of the last two weeks, the only person who needs to be worrying about gaffes is Dean; I can count 3 or 4 very recent gaffes on Dean's part off the top of my head. Anyway, I'm not sure why he won't be there. It's probably not the best choice to make, but I don't think it will make or break him.

[mzmolly]

52. Your right, the less exposure media wise, the less *gaffes* one is subject

to, simple odds...

By the way, I agree with Deans so called *gaffes*.

Especially the "were not safer now that Saddam is in custody" *gaffe*.

Note the ORANGE ALERT folks ;)

[dfong63]

18. i don't agree

i'm a Dean supporter, and personally i think there have been enough debates already. Clark has participated in enough of them to prove that he's not "ducking". i don't think any candidate is or should be obligated to participate in all of them.

[Racenut20]

19. I can't answer this without being critical so I won't

[TrueAmerican]

20. The debates are a sham

Too many candidates to get anything out of them.

[zulchzulu]

27. I do agree

I've had people who are undecided watch a couple debates and asked their reaction.

Mostly they remember Sharpton jokes but generally are confused becuase of the amount of people on stage and the limited time they have to answer questions.

[wndycty]

21. Two other things

I bet more people watch "Meet The Press" than watch the debate and everyone is going to be attacking Dean, Clark does not attack. . .but passing up this debate he stays above the fray. Also even if he goes it will be about Dean. . .he gets the stage all to himself on Sunday morning and does not get dirty beating up on Dean.

[slinkerwink]

22. missing out on free media exposure is just plain dumb.

tsk, tsk, tsk......:shrug:

[wndycty]

24. More people will watch Meet The Press

:kick:

[JNelson6563]

26. ah but sound bytes will be on all channels

evening news and all.

Julie

[wndycty]

28. The sound bytes will be of candidates attacking Dean. . .

. . .Clark wants no part of that. Let Gephardt, Kerry and Lieberman beat him up. Clark comes out good because whether or not he was there this was going to happen and to top it off he has not dirt on his clothes. . .brilliant if you ask me, just brilliant.

[JNelson6563]

32. I've seen plenty of sound bytes

after these things that weren't attacks on Dean.

I think it is a missed opportunity but I understand how you would see it as "brilliant". ;-)

Julie

[wndycty]

35. Sunday, January 4. . .

. . .how many people will be returning from the long holiday vacations at that time?

. . .how many people will be watching the Sugar Bowl?

. . .how many people will be watching the NFL playoffs?

This is not that much of a missed opportunity, especially when you consider that there are 9 (now 8) people many of which are ganging up on one candidate. . .Clark gets more face time and reaches more voters on Meet The Press.

[poopyjr]

39. I agree. Clark appears to "rise above the fray"

[mzmolly]

74. Soooo skipping debates is now 'rising above the fray'?

hmmmm, interesting.

[windansea]

75. Clark is a big sissy!!

happy now??

[mzmolly]

78. Not really, are you ?

*

[poopyjr]

76. Yes, have you SEEN the debates?

They are unbearable.


Each candidate says about 3 sentences. Then Sharpton throws out one-liners.

[mzmolly]

79. Oh goodness, this is comical.

I agree the Debates are a joke. I've seen Dean set up on numerous occasions, but you can't just not show up. It's part of the process.

Now if Wes says "I'm sorry, I had another engagement prior that I must honor" then the issue is dead as far as I'm concerned.

But, I think it's a shame to leave his supporters in the dark to defend him for opting out of the Democratic process *no matter how ugly it is*

[windansea]

83. we're not in the dark

thanks for thinking of us though

[mzmolly]

88. Glad to hear it. Please share the *official* word on why Clark isn't

attending the debate?

[windansea]

36. yep

:thumbsup:

[mzmolly]

81. Wow that gets a

:thumbsup: niiiiice....

[kayleybeth]

37. but it's only dumb if someone other than Dean, right?

Let me guess... if Dean was the one opting out a debate, you'd be defending him to the death.

I have no idea why Clark isn't participating. I'm actually disappointed but I am sure he has his reasons. General Clark is no dummy.

[JNelson6563]

84. yes, you are correct

Let me guess... if Dean was the one opting out a debate, you'd be defending him to the death.

heh heh

Julie

[slinkerwink]

91. no, I'd be upset with Dean also

[Wickerman]

29. If past debates are any indication

Clark will receive more exposure by NOT attending than if he stood there and waited to be called on by the moderators. And, frankly, why should he steal whatever thunder he might in a debate where he is admittedly not competing in the race for which the debate is being held? I suspicion that if he DID he might receive some criticism for doing that. :eyes:

Lets beat Bush in 2004, not destroy each other and what remains of the party.

[wndycty]

31. Like a said in a way this debate would be focused on Dean. . .

. . .and they attacks on him, Clark has a lot more to gain by avoiding this mess.

[TeacherCreature]

30. because his staff is affraid of what he might say

They have already said he made so many mistakes during the beginning that the only way he can win is if Dean tanks. Right now they are doing better keeping him from speaking in public except under scripted conditions.

[poopyjr]

33. huh?

Just like making shit up, huh?

[Demobrat]

46. Actually, no he's not.

One of Clark's advisors said that on TV the other day. Not that I expect you to believe it, or anything.

[poopyjr]

49. Yeah, cuz that whole "we're not safer"

because we got Saddam" and "I won't prejudge Osama", "I wanna be the candidate for confederate flag lovers" stuff was nothing compared to Clark's monster gaffes. <sarcasm>

[Demobrat]

69. Don't know why it was said.

It was kind of surprising, actually. You'd have to ask the campaign.

[burning bush]

109. Yeah, and Al Gore invented the Internet, right?

First of all, I don't believe Dean said "I wanna be the candidate for confederate flag lovers." That's the kind of crap Gore was dished. Gore didn't fight back, Dean will.

Second - We AREN'T safer having caught Saddam, Osama DOES deserve a trial, just like anyone, and we DO need southern white voters.

What exactly do you find wrong with any of that, other than Dean said it and you need something about which to complain?

[lurk_no_more]

53. If you can't dazzle em with your brilliance

baffle em with your bullshit. Lol


” JAFO”

[lurk_no_more]

47. Link Please

Thank You!


” JAFO”

[Lefta Dissenter]

50. Have you watched even ONE of his town hall meetings?

If so, you'd realize how ridiculous what you just said really is. If you haven't watched any, then go to C-Span and watch any one of the Clark events in which he is being asked questions by the audience members. Even YOU will be amazed at what he knows and how articulate he is. It really is his BEST format, because he has the opportunity to demonstrate his depth of knowledge, experience and compassion.

Go ahead, I dare ya! ;)

[lurk_no_more]

41. Maybe Clark put his foot down

and decided ABI, anywhere but Iowa.


” JAFO”

[VolcanoJen]

44. Well, I had planned to opt out of this debate, too.

Honestly, they're getting a little tired, and even if Clark was in this one, I doubt I'd stay tuned in. Once we're down to a handful of candidates, they'll get real interesting again.

The debate starts right in the middle of Sunday's first NFL playoff game, Seattle-Green Bay, and the second game, Denver-Indy, starts while the debate is still on. Hell, I'm a political junkie and I live for this stuff, but given the choice, I'm watching football playoffs!!

I think the damage to Clark is minimal to non-existent in this case. Besides, he wasn't invited, so it really wasn't his to "skip out" on:

The Register has invited the Democrats who have traveled to Iowa in 2003 to participate in a debate Jan. 4, 2004 at 2 p.m. The debate will be held at Iowa Public Television's Maytag Auditorium and will be broadcast statewide by IPTV.

- Jennifer

[mzmolly]

59. Clark *has* traveled to Iowa.

http://www.katv.com/news/stories/0903/103162.html

"Iowa City, IA - Wesley Clark’s campaign travels have only just begun. Friday the retired general heads to Iowa to speak to students at the University of Iowa Law School."

I can't imagine them excluding him.

[xultar]

54. I think it is a nice jesture, why take time from those competing in IA n/t

[TreasonousBastard]

55. Lessee if I got this straight...

Clark isn't going to a debate he wasn't invited to in a state he's not campaigning in and that no one will watch because it's on CSPAN when football games are on.

But he will be on Meet the Press, which, even if no one watches, will get a lot more attention than an Iowa debate.

This is a problem?

[windansea]

58. ding ding ding

its nice that people care tho...

[mzmolly]

67. Nope you don't have it straight....

you have the 'spin'.

The DesMoines register invited all candidates that traveled to Iowa in 2003. Wes Clark traveled to Iowa in 2003. Clark supporters claim that Clark was not invited. *There is no proof of this claim*

It would be ridiculous to exclude Clark from such an invitation.

[maddezmom]

70. I asked the question...didn't make a claim.

If they all were invited, then yes he is skipping the debate. No spin from me.

[mzmolly]

73. I was speaking to TreasonousBastard, maddezmom

at least with this post.

Thanks for not spinning this yerself though :) My apologies for the misunderstanding above.

[TreasonousBastard]

80. Upon checking...

I note that CNN, Fox, a few PBS stations and some others plan to broadcast the debate, so it may actually be seen by a whole dozen people.

Whether or not he was invited I don't know-- The Des Moines Register doesn't say. But it is a moot point as he has no campaign staff in the state and little hope of getting the required 15% to be viable. It is doubtful that a debate appearance would make up for the lack of campaigning and heavy staff work the others have.

I still say, though, that it is a non-issue. His campaign has decided, for better or worse, that Iowa is a giveaway. I can't see why the rest of the country should care about yet another debate more than they care about the results of the caucus.

[mzmolly]

82. You are now saying CNN, Fox and PBS viewers = 12 people?

Debates aired nationally are not about Iowa. They've never had a debate in my state, but I've watched every one.

[TreasonousBastard]

99. Yeah, more...

but not all that much more. Check the ratings after it's over.

The debates just aren't all that popular, and my point is still that Clark doesn't lose a thing not going there.

If he and Sharpton showed up, everyone gets the same few minutes to say something. It better be damn good to stand out in that crowd.

My take is that this debate is a feelgood for Iowans and means little in the long term. The whole caucus is now an exercise in stalling Dean so everyone else can get a little breathing room, so why show up if you can't win the 15% but can get the benefit of everyone else dumping on Dean?

[xultar]

72. Yes, you have it straight, don't listen to the Dean supporters who

say that you don't. Apparently being gracious and allowing those who are competing in IA have the maximum debate stage time isn't something they view as positive.

I'd think they'd be happy personally cuz it will allow Dean more time to speak.

This is curious.

[LiberalEconomist]

77. The anti-Dean?

Please!!! Clark does not define himself according to what is "Dean." Rather, Clark defines himself according to what is "Clark." Hence, Clark's positive campaign. On the other hand, the others--the Congressional candidates--seek to differentiate themselves from Dean.

[mzmolly]

85. Nope not straight...

Apparently skipping debates is now:

"staying above the fray"

"being gracious"

"smart political strategy"

"a total waste of time"

:eyes:

Amazing. I think I'll suggest Dean opt out of all debates going forward. You know, for the sake of being gracious and all.

[windansea]

89. time for a drink??

you have NO proof Clark opted out of the debate...if it was his choice to opt out it's probably because he's not running in the caucus...he never was (like Lieberman)... pretty simple

get over it...and tell Dean to wear his fireman outfit...he's going to need it when DK gets the mic

[mzmolly]

92. Are you sharing yours?

I'm not worried about little DK. Frankly, I dont take him too seriously. And, apparently I'm not alone given the polls.

Now, back to the subject.

Do you have word that Clark will participate? Or, do you have any word at all regarding why he isn't? I'll assume not until I hear otherwise.

[Lefta Dissenter]

95. I'm sure that the supporters of Dennis Kucinich

do not appreciate your demeaning reference to "little DK." Despite the fact that the man is smaller in physical stature, he's a hell of a lot bigger MAN than your candidate.

I'll vote for Dennis proudly if he gets the nomination. If dean is the nominee, I'll need to take my barf bag along to the polls. :puke:

[mzmolly]

112. Glad to see people like you taking the high road with comments like this

"If dean is the nominee, I'll need to take my barf bag along to the polls."

I meant little DK in the best of ways. I think he's cute, and a damn good congressmen to boot!

[bhunt70]

86. I wish he would participate in the debate.

I think any exposure he gets turns out to be good exposure.

[TLM]

87. So is Clark just giving up? Or is he really running for VP?

Because this is the last debate before voting starts.

Not using this media time is going to give Kerry the 2nd place spot in NH.

[Toucano]

90. Clark's days in Iowa

Clark has spent 3 days in Iowa.

http://desmoinesregister.com/extras/politics/caucus2004/days.html

Sharpton also appears to be missing the 1/4 debate. I wish both Clark and Sharpton could attend, but I see nothing sinister in either of them not being able to.

[LiberalEconomist]

93. I humbly disagree

I believe Clark is doing the right thing by staying out of this debate. His time is better served in building up support in states like South Carolina etc than participating in some "debate" in a state he is not seriously contesting. Besides, Clark does his best when he is given the opportunity to fully explain his positions rather that in forums that require 45 seconds of quips and put-downs.

If Dean weren't in serious contention for Iowa I would suggest he not attend either. Dean doesn't need to stand there and take abuse from loser Republican jerk-offs like LIEberman and from limp noodles like Gephart.

[SahaleArm]

94. Does anyone in Iowa care that Gephardt missed the Boston debate?

PC or Mac? What a joke that was.

[stickdog]

96. Generals don't fight on the front lines. The General's DLC shock troops --

Lieberman, Kerry and Gephardt -- will be there to be deployed against Dean at the General's command.

Classic military strategy, don't you know.

Forward he cried from the rear
and the front rank died.
And the General sat and the lines on the map
moved from side to side.

[windansea]

97. heh heh

Generals and Gentlemen don't participate in gang-ups

one on one duels are preferred...

considering the timing of the holiday gaffe fest...it couldn't be better for Clark to sit out this version of the circular firing squad

[stickdog]

98. Why are you laughing? Are you truly happy to see Kerry reduced to being

just another one of Clark's DLC stalking horses?

Because you know as well as I do that Kerry, Lieberman & Gephardt are all on suicide missions here.

[windansea]

100. I was laughing at your quote

which was pretty funny

I feel sorry for Kerry (especially) and the rest cuz they have all contributed more to democratic ideals than any poster on DU and are constantly disparaged for one misplaced vote based on bad intel

Dean brought this on himself by initiating the mudslinging.

[slinkerwink]

101. remember how Clark was going to miss that NH debate? Clark supporters

were understandably upset, and the pressure from his supporters caused him to change his mind. I don't understand why his own supporters are failing to do this when it comes to this next debate.

[windansea]

102. we're evolving!!

got to love it

[slinkerwink]

103. or rather.....devolving........

got to love it even more....;-)

[wndycty]

104. Its a matter of priorities. . .

. . .this is a low impact debate for Clark. Who will be watching on Sunday. . .I am willing to bet more people will see him on Meet The Press than the debate.

[windansea]

106. correct

Dean supporters who appear to be concerned on this issue can rest assured that Clark will reach more people on MTP than in the debate and that his voice will be heard.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

115. "low impact debate"

[VolcanoJen]

116. Well, I think the NH Debate was much more revelent than this one.

As I recall, it was only Clark's second or third debate, and I think it would have been extremely unwise for him to skip it, especially considering it was held and sponsored by a state he was competing in.

This time around... sheesh, I dunno... I'm just kind of bored with the debates. I can only speak for myself, but until this field is narrowed down, I don't look for any fireworks or real fleshing-out of policy in the crowded field. I don't think it will hurt Wes one iota to skip this one, especially since it's held during the first weekend of NFL playoffs.

I appreciate your sentiment, though, slinkerwink, and had the debate been earlier in the season, I think you'd see a few more Clark supporters upset about it.

I certainly wouldn't blame Dean if he skipped one in the near future... he could use a break, and at present, these debates are relatively silly in format.

:-)
Jennifer

[Cheswick2.0]

105. He just doesn't have anything to say

oh well

[Fleshdancer]

107. not the best move imo

If the other candidates bash Clark, he won't be there to defend himself.

[windansea]

108. they won't have time

they'll be busy bashing Dean for his recent gaffe fest and shady campaign practices.

Not many will watch the debate live but there will be some very nasty exchanges clipped for Monday's papers and nightly news.

[burning bush]

110. And Hawkeye - If Dean opted out..

Do you think that the Clark supporters would not converge like stink on a turd, and call Dean a coward for his no-show?

Of course, Clark has all those stars. He no longer needs to debate, and he can't possibly be afraid.

Can he?

[KittyWampus]

111. OH NO! The Moderator May Ask Everyone Who Thinks Clark Can Beat Bush

to raise their hands and wouldn't it be funny if THEY ALL DID AND CLARK WASN'T EVEN THERE!

[incapsulated]

114. It's obvious

He is a coward who is afraid of Dean's unbeatable debating skills, plus, he knows he can't win and is trying to self-destruct his own campaign.

What other reason could there possibly be?