The Death of a Good Democrat.

[Ravy]

I was thought of as a good Democrat when I was president of my college's Young Democrats.

I was thought of as a good Democrat when I was selected to the national College Young Democratic Convention.

I was thought of as a good Democrat when I ran for public office (although not *quite* good enough *grin*)

I was thought of as a good Democrat when I worked on the Dukakis Campaign.

My friends and family always thought of me as a good Democrat when I tirelessly educated them on Democratic principles and ideals.

When Bush the lesser came into office, I found out, like most of the rest of you, that I was *not* patriotic.

And because I can see how people could support the IWR, yet still be against the invasion of Iraq, I am a war-monger.

And sometimes, when I simply disagree with Obama, I am a racist.




What the hell happened to me?


:shrug:

[MADem]

1. Join the club.

It's unfortunate.

I suppose they'll speak to us again when President McCain invades Iran. It'll be hard to resist an "I told you so" though.

[stevedeshazer]

2. Total stab here

'I can see how people could support the IWR'

[A-Schwarzenegger]

4. I can see it, if

they wanted to look like a tough guy for an upcoming Pres election;
they trusted George Bush;
they were willing to gamble the war would be a cakewalk...

[Ravy]

6. Actually, if they wanted truly unfettered access to UN weapons inspectors,

and for Saddam to try to go into exile.

All of which was happening when Bush decided to pull the weapons inspectors out and invade.

[JVS]

25. pretty cynical shit, eh!

[grantcart]

3. ? are we supposed to know what your referring to if you had an arugement with

a particular individual?

[JohnnyLib2]

5. You, me, and many more.

It's a painful time.

Thanks for the post. :thumbsup:

[GarbagemanLB]

7. Hillary's IWR excuse would be more plausible if she ACTUALLY READ THE NIE. She didn't. Fuck her.

[Ravy]

11. But, to form his "good judgement", Obama did? Or, was he going by gut?

This is all a game.

[GarbagemanLB]

14. Either way, his judgement WAS CORRECT. Her's WASN'T. I care about judgement.

[Ravy]

19. Judgement formed on a lack of information is commonly called "luck".

I think it was the invasion that was bad. I have no problem with using the threat of military action to force Saddam to comply with the UN resolutions. The inaction was killing hundreds of thousands of mostly children with the sanctions.

[Hippo_Tron]

21. Obama listened to people like this guy...

http://www.jameswebb.com/articles/washpost/headingfortrouble.htm

Who warned us about how going into Iraq would be a disaster.

And also this guy warned us that it would be a disaster as well, back before he had an agenda...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9YuD9kYK9I

You don't have to be a genius or just go with your "gut" to know that going into Iraq would be a bad idea. There were plenty of warning signs.

[Ravy]

27. Iraq was a bad idea already.

Our planes were being targeted for enforcing the no-fly-zone, the sanctions were killing hundreds of thousands, Saddam was boasting of having WMD and had kicked out the weapons inspectors only to let them back in and resrict their access so that UN pulled them out so Clinton could bomb again.

Part of the blame goes to Bill Clinton for not getting some sort of workable resolution other than containment.

But I was responding to the poster who said you had to read the NIE (which was cooked, anyway) to make the correct judgement.

[Hippo_Tron]

29. Fair enough about the NIE

But my point is that anybody who knows anything about the history of Iraq would know how incredibly difficult to stabilize the country it would be. It was not a good idea to hand over unilateral war-making power to an administration that made it apparent that they were not aware of this and had no exit strategy.

And while I agree that the sanctions were very problematic, invasion wasn't the answer.

[Ravy]

39. I can't disagree, except that I really thought they were aware of this.

Colin Powell, Bush the Greater, even Dick Cheney talked frankly about why invading Iraq was a bad idea. I wasn't so concerned *at the time* about an exit strategy because I didn't think we would even need to go in. Turns out, I was right, we didn't ever *need* to go in... Evil won out.

I didn't dream that they would go to war while Saddam was complying. I am more of a cynic as a result.

[Hippo_Tron]

42. The right wing media was pretty clearly gearing the country up for war

It was nonstop 24/7 about everyone Saddam had murdered and his "rape rooms" and all of that. That and the fact that Bush was claiming an Al Qaeda connection despite evidence to the contrary.

The media and the Bush Administration were making the American people thirsty for blood. They wouldn't go through all of that trouble if the plan was to just get the inspectors back in.

[Ravy]

45. Yes, and the captured POW from the first war... I forget his name...

Maybe my newfound cynicism is really against anything the media tries to sell me.

I keep thinking that truth and justice will win out in the long run, but it doesn't seem to be a given.

I hope the Democrats can win big in November and turn it around, but we have a long, long way to go to recover from this mess the republicans have put us in (speaking of the environment and economy, too).

[Jim Sagle]

8. Trampled by a herd of Obamacattle.

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[enid602]

18. IWR

Their righteousness stems from the fact that feel they 'know' Obama would have voted against the IWR had he been in the Senate at that time. Seems kind of hypocritical to constantly belittle someone else's vote when one wasn't in a position to vote himself, and had such a history of voting 'present' on politically difficult votes.

But more importantly, I think this line of argument obscures the fact the the IWR merely authorized the President to defend the US' interests, and defend itself against a 'perceived' Iraqi threat. I think it can be argued that Bush overextended his authorization, AND spent too much, AND fought the war poorly, AND had no plan for Iraqi governance. As such, I suggest we throw the blame of the entire Iraqi debacle at the feet of those who so truly deserve it: George W Bush and Dick Cheney.

[Catherina]

33. Seems kind of hypocritical to say you're against the war

and then reward someone who voted for it and all its accoutrements like the Patriot Act over the objections of the people :shrug:

[Bonobo]

32. What a "schmuck-like" post! Surprising coming from such a "non-schmuck" as you!

[Bonobo]

9. Would you like an apology? A cookie? What?

We are sorry SOMEONE called yo a racist, okay?

You are not a racist.

You are good.

Thank you for being a good Democrat.

Thank you for supporting Dukakis. It was my first serious Pres campaign as well.

But get out of the wahmbulance already. This is a very stupid section of a nice ANONYMOUS WEBSITE called DU.

It is NOT the real world.

[Kukesa]

31. Perfect! Thanks for that insightful post. n/t

[zalinda]

12. Yeah, I know

I guess the "real" Democrats don't understand that if you hang out with assholes, you are thought of as an asshole too. Oh, wait...........they do know that, but they can't see that they are the assholes.

zalinda

[HCE SuiGeneris]

13. "I lie my ass off and employ Rovian strategies in my campaign"

What happened to me...

[Ravy]

15. Without an icon, I can't tell which candidate you are supporting.

I see that in both campaigns. I think we could have done better, but whichever way this goes, we can't let a republican back in the white house until we some things turned around.

[totodeinhere]

16. No, the vast majority of Clinton supporters are good Dems like you and are not racists.

But all you have to do is scan this board to find a few Clinton supporters who are.

Oh, and BTW, I can also criticize Clinton without being a sexist.

[polmaven]

23. Yes, you certainly can

I have criticized Senator Clinton for several things.

You will admit, however, that you can scan this board and find a few Obama supporters who are not only sexist but misogynist. Of course, those of us who object to the sexism are whiny "victims".

[totodeinhere]

28. Oh yes, it's a two way street.

I just wish that more suppporters of both candidates at DU could realize that.

[polmaven]

30. As do I.

It was a much more pleasant way to pass a Wednesday evening before Primary season.

[TomBall Democrat]

17. You became a career victim.

[Ravy]

20. Does that pay well? nt

[anigbrowl]

22. You started taking it personally

On a specific note: I don't see how anyone can support the IWR and be against the invasion of Iraq. I'm sorry, that's like handing your wallet to a mugger saying 'take the cash' and then expressing surprise when he hangs onto the wallet and your credit cards as well.

[Ravy]

24. Well, here is how I see it.

I didn't have any problem with the threat of military action against Saddam in order to get him to comply with UN resolutions and the cease-fire agreement.

He was boasting about his WMD, and I thought we should get UN weapons inspectors back in there. The sanctions were killing the Iraqi people with lack of food and medicine.

It was a plus when Saddam started seeking exile.

It didn't take an invasion to get any of that.

At the time of the IWR, we had the vacation-going, My Pet Goat reading, slow to get the military to act at Tora Bora Bush. And, I didn't count on Colin Powell throwing away his good name. Hindsight is 20/20.

[dailykoff]

35. Saddam was doing everything but the can-can to comply

with every blasted demand Cheney and co. could dream up. You gotta stop watching CNN my friend, it's pure propaganda and it's corroding your brain. :hi:

[Ravy]

36. He was doing nothing before the IWR was passed.

He did inform the UN after the resolution was proposed that he would allow inspectors back in, but even that could be attributable to the impending IWR vote.

Yes, I know that Saddam was complying. That is what made the war illegal and the invasion unnecessary, even evil.

But that was after, and IMHO because of, the IWR vote.

[dailykoff]

40. He was practically running in circles complying, Blix

told the entire UN he was complying, and he also reported that he was confident there were no WMD in Iraq -- BEFORE the IWR vote. Bushco and CNN were blowing wind up your butt and it wasn't hard to figure that out.

[Ravy]

43. Check your dates please.

There were no UN inspectors in Iraq prior to the IWR vote. Blix had no way of knowing.

[dailykoff]

47. The US-led team voluntarily pulled out in '98 just before Bill

ordered up a wag-the-dog bombing raid. They stayed out until late '02, not because they were barred, but because of "our many preparations for the resumption of inspections in Iraq_ (Blix's words), which resumed after the Oct 02 IWR, and found nothing, as Blix reported in March '03.

This doesn't look good for Bill OR Hillary.

Links:

1998 pull-out: http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=1750

Blix: http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/03/07/sprj.irq.un.transcript.blix/

[Ravy]

48. Saddam kicked them out in 1997

When they returned in 1998, he would not give them access to certain sites, so Clinton urged them to leave and bombed those sites.

I agree, this mess should have been cleaned up in the Clinton administration, but it wasn't. It shouldn't have been left to him by the first Bush.

The weapons inspections were not complete in March, 2003, when Bush had the weapons inspectors get out so he could invade.

My point is that the IWR created a path for a resolution of the situation without an invasion, but that path was not legitimately pursued. In hindsight, it is extremely unfortunate that it turned out as it did, but I put the blame of that on Bush. He had no legimate reason to invade without cause.

[flowomo]

26. A lot of good Dems have been chewed up in the GDP meatgrinder...

I'm sorry it happened to you. Some kind of "Lord of the Flies" dynamic has set in here. Hold to your principles.

[mudesi]

34. Blame your candidate

Her actions speak for themselves.

[Ravy]

37. Edwards is male, and I don't see him doing any of this. nt

[StevieM]

38. We have been told to go to hell. King Barack I has ushered in a new era and we are in the way (eom)

[Ravy]

41. Disclaimer: Perhaps I would have become a sexist too if I hadn't put

the most attrocious Clinton supporters on Ignore when they began going after Edwards.

Clinton herself has stayed okay in my book, but Obama has been in steady decline from the high hopes I had for him. Now they are both just "okay". Great though, when compared to McCain.

[unkachuck]

44. "What the hell happened to me?"

....you're ok, you'll be fine....you'll feel better AND be able to redeem yourself when you vote for Obama this November....

....I know you will....

[Ravy]

46. I certainly will, if he is the nominee.

It looks that way, but until it is a lock, I am not going to jinx either remaining candidate.

[Beacool]

49. It's the Borg invasion!!!!!

If you dare not to support the Anointed One you are:

- a troll
- a racist
- trying to ruin the party
- in bed with lobbyist and corporations
- etc., etc.

Well, I'm a proud Clinton supporter. The Clintons have done more for the party and this country than Obama will ever hope to achieve, and that's not even mentioning the thousands of people who are alive today thanks to Bill's foundation. Oh, and most of these people are in Africa, but the Clintons are such racists...........

It is pathetic that in this so called "Democratic" board you are not permitted to support your candidate in peace without being vilified by a bunch of kids and adults who should know better.

:thumbsdown: