Why some Clinton supporters might vote for McCain

[Taxmyth]

Fear of the unknown.

And before it gets too ugly, I am certainly not encouraging anyone to vote for the Republican. Don't go there.

There is a laundry list of items actually wrong or perceived to be wrong with the United States at this time. The economy is tanking, the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, erosion of fundamental civil liberties, on and on and on. So who to choose for President at this critical juncture in our Nation's history? Experience or the perception of experience will be the key to most voters.

Barack Obama - leading challenger at this point on the Democratic side. And a huge unknown, except for his oratory skills, to many that have followed politics for years. There are questions about him - do we know the dirt, is he confident or arrogant, can he work well with Congress? Attempts to question his supporters about Senator Obama are generally met with derision and rude comments on the message boards. Questions about his policies and experience are answered by being given links to the Senator's campaign website or links to a video of a speech he has made. Inconsistencies with his past statements are ignored and when pointed out, and are generally answered by attacks on another candidate. He is perceived by some not firmly in his camp now, to be ripe for an October surprise that could blow his chances at election out of the water. Even without the October surprise, there are still enough unanswered questions to make him a target for GOP led investigations which could damage his ability to preside over the nation.

Hillary Clinton - behind Senator Obama in the delegate count at this point but not eliminated. What's not to know about Senator Clinton? The Clinton's led this nation through some of the best years in our lives during the 90's. Memories of peace and prosperity. And Hillary Clinton was no wallflower as First Lady. She had her own offices, she participated in policy discussions. She was seen almost as a co-President during those years or, at the very least, a trusted advisor to the President. Her time in the Senate has shown that she can work with both sides of the aisle to enact meaningful legislation, she has traveled around the world meeting and discussing global issues with other nations leaders. She has been in the public eye and a leader in the Democratic Party for decades. There is no chance for an October surprise with Senator Clinton. She is also a lightning rod for attacks and has shown a remarkable ability to stay on message while minimizing damage from these attacks. A good characteristic for a President to have.

John McCain - The Republican challenger. A war hero in a nation sick of war. Seen as a maverick by his own Party, he has shown the ability to reach across the aisle to get things done. Senator McCain could be shown as the most liberal Republican Senator serving in the Senate over the last decade. He has the perception of bringing the nation closer to the center instead of veering right as has happened over the last 8 years. He is an adherent to traditional Republican policies which, as people get older and wealthier, are policies they tend to embrace. He is not a member of the Democratic Party and is not a proponent of progressive policies but he has stood up to GW Bush and neo-conservative policies on occasion. He ran for President in 2000 as an answer to the Bush nomination but was defeated in the Primary. There were Democratic Party voters who supported that run. To a traditional Democratic voter and especially an Independent voter, he could be considered a "safe" alternative to govern the United States. Especially with a Democratic controlled House and Senate.

Senator McCain should be easy to beat in the general election but will he be? It's a question of what is known and what is unknown. None of the three candidates have any experience as Governor or running a succesful business. All three could be seen as weak candidates with the best for each Party having been knocked out of the running during the Primaries.

Don't vote for McCain. I can't get any clearer than that. If you can't vote for the Democratic nominee then make sure you do vote for a Democratic majority in the House and Senate. If McCain is elected President and we have to wait until 2012 to take the prize, a Democratic Party led House and Senate is our safest bet.

Edited to correct the year McCain ran for President because I'm a dumb American voter.

[DJ13]

1. Fear of the unknown.

Bullcrap.

Thats Clinton spin.

The truth is that EVERY candidate elected to be President is an unknown.

Bill was an unknown in 92, did that stop good Democrats from voting for him?

Hillary would also be an unknown, as every person once in office deals with issues not touched upon in the election.

[Mme. Defarge]

2. In Hillary's case,

I have fear of the known.

[NDambi]

11. lol ain't it the truth

[TheWraith]

4. Not to mention the Clinton people have been digging for dirt on Obama for six months.

If there were anything real there, anything more substantial than a "crazy uncle" pastor and a campaign donor who got arrested--Norman Hsu, anyone?--then the Clinton campaign would be broadcasting it from every rooftop.

[Arkansas Granny]

14. You seem to forget that the RW smear machine won't need anything real.

If they don't have something factual to use, they will just make it up out of whole cloth. By the time it has been proven false, the damage has already been done.

[TheWraith]

50. And they have a 15-year head start on Clinton. Who has Bush-level approval ratings.

So again, why should we nominate her over somebody whose personal approval is high, who doesn't motivate the right to get out and vote, and who mobilizes not just our base but a ton of new voters and independents?

Oh yeah, she's more electable. :sarcasm:

[Taxmyth]

5. No spin needed

As someone had pointed out on another post, fear, uncertainty and doubt are key selling points in the US. Which candidate has the highest quotient of fear, uncertainty and doubt?

[Mz Pip]

3. I can only hope

that once we have a candidate this "Screw you guys, I'm going home!" mentality those who support whoever isn't the nominee will cease.

People say they want change. If they vote for McCain they are voting for the status quo and that won't be good for the country in any way, shape or form. McCain can only be considered "safe" if you like where we are now.

Even Republicans aren't happy about now.

[Taxmyth]

7. Even Republicans aren't happy now

Which should make this a slam dunk for the Democratic Party to seat a President. But.....

[Mz Pip]

10. It does bother me

that there are some who dislike Obama because he has crossover appeal.

The Republican Party was quite welcoming of the Reagan Democrats. Seems if the Democrats really want to win, they should be welcoming of the Obama (or Clinton) Republicans.

[Mimosa]

29. Welcome the Obama Repubs

Mz Pip, that is the path to victory.

I know why some types of people will never vote for Obama. And those people are everywhere. Maybe the status quo they'd get with a McCain presidency doesn't seem to bother them now, but when and if such a possibility were to draw nearer, they would most likely vote for the Democrat, Obama. Not to do so would be to commit personal economic suicide.

[kwenu]

6. Obama is not an unknown. Your premise is illegitimate.

Hillary supporters just can't handle reality. She is all but eliminated from the race because she's a hanger on. We all know Hillary well which is her main problem. Her negatives are high and continue to rise. If Hill supporters vote for McCain its because their hoping to elect her in 2012. That won't happen either. I'll vote for Hillary if she's the 2008 nominee or if she is the incumbent in 2012. Otherwise, I will never ever vote for Hillary. Probably won't vote for Chelsea either if she ever runs.

[Taxmyth]

8. Unknown

Obama is an unknown to the bulk of GOP voters and to many traditional independent voters. He has not had the MSM coverage of the other 2 candidates over the last decade plus. To sell a President Obama to the nation will require a lot of people explaining who he is and what he will do PLUS countering any negatives thrown at him.

[kwenu]

41. BS. If they are registered to vote, and intend to vote, they know Obama, Hillary and McCain.

You're just being silly. In fact, I bet they could identify Obama more accurately than they could identify McCain or Gore or Edwards for that matter.

[TwilightGardener]

9. McCain hasn't "stood up" against neocon policies--because he IS a neocon!

And he's not a "maverick" in his party, he's seen as a backstabbing media whore who deliberately triangulates on fairly tame, non-partisan issues to appeal to gullible Democrats. He didn't run for Prez in 2004. You don't have your facts straight.

[Taxmyth]

12. You are correct

It was 2000 he ran against GW in the Primaries. See how stupid people are when it comes to politics, well, me anyway. And I can't disagree with your assessment of Senator McCain.

[JimGinPA]

13. Most Likely They Have These Tendencies...

[Taxmyth]

15. Interesting picture

points out a stereotype that is appalling to most Americans. Which is why the Pastor Wright controversy is a problem.

[JimGinPA]

16. Not A Problem, An Excuse. nt

[Taxmyth]

17. as in

they do it so why shouldn't we?

[JimGinPA]

19. No, As In They Won't Admit Blatant Racism, But Here's A Convenient Excuse...

Not to vote for a black man. His crazy preacher hates America and he wouldn't quit the church. If he had quit the church it would have been some other excuse.

[Mimosa]

30. No, As In They Won't Admit Blatant Racism, But Here's A Convenient Excuse...

JimGinPA, you have nailed it. There would be some other excuse.

And some people won't vote for a woman. I wonder which prejudice is the dominant one for those who have both. At any rate, there's not much which can be done about 'those kind of people.'

[atal]

18. Clinton supporters that turn to McCain are the....

....racists...

It's that simple, because as far as policies are concerned, Obama is closer to Clinton. There can't be any other reason!

I personally don't expect too many Democrats to turn to McCain. In fact, I believe more Republicans are going to switch to Obama, than Democrats will vote for McCain.

[MADem]

21. If they're so close, though, why not vote for the one with more experience, who

will have a live-in ex-president advisor on the premises?

Seems to make sense to me. The Two-Fer argument is compelling.

The Obama machine has done more to alienate the older voter than I've seen since the sixties. THAT's what will fuck the Democratic Party this time, not "racism" or any other convenient excuse, if Obama gets the nom.

[atal]

23. More experience in which sence?

[MADem]

25. How about in the US Senate, for starters? How about working on the Hill?

How about simple AGE, living, surviving?

How many 'senses' do you need? Who's been in and around the political sphere longer? When Obama was a child, Clinton was serving on the Watergate Commission.

[atal]

36. Wouldn't it be better to see where he stands

on issues? His opinion? His views? How he votes in the Senate? His gaffs?


AGE alone should not be a primary factor to determine why a person should become the President of the USA.

You seriously need to look a "little" further than just age.

[MADem]

38. The two D candidates have virtually the same record, save one vote

that the "antiwar" candidate (who cleverly triangulated/straddled the whole issue with clever verbiage) admitted he didn't know how he would have voted, because he didn't have access to all of the materials.*

Clinton has the BETTER health care plan. Both have a better approach than McCain.

Stop telling me what "I" need to look at. I've actually compared and contrasted. I find that Obama's supporters are the ones who don't know shit about his plans--all they know is that he's "cool" and he says he wouldn't have voted for the war.

They gloss over how long he wants to keep troops in Iraq, though (sixteen months, with "some" troops staying). It gets in the way of his antiwar patina.

There's that classic Obama chip on the shoulder, accompanied by a false set of ASSumptions about me and my voting intentions.

I will vote for the Dem. Even if it is the less experienced, less prepared candidate. Check the DU archives, I've been saying this forever.

I am simply telling you what more than a small sample of elderly voters say to ME. It's not JUST age, it's EXPERIENCE, gravitas, "believability," and CONFIDENCE. Ignore that if it makes you happy. Fingers in the ears, La la la-ing away, if you like.

And keep ASSuming that people who discuss the very real possiblity of President Popeye are somehow fans of the Spinach Man--it's certainly easier for you to make that accusation than confronting the actual issues that Obama will have a difficult, if not impossible, time overcoming, but it's inaccurate.

Four years ago, on this very forum, Kerry was a shoe-in. A sure thing. Couldn't lose!!! Will win in a walk!

It tends to be an echo chamber the closer we get to November. And of course, anyone who wants to point out weak spots or concerns and actually DEBATE the issues with an eye towards strengthening the party is automatically excoriated as an enemy. Can't disabuse anyone of any notions, have another glass of Kool Aid!!!

Which is why this place gets less interesting by the day.



-----------------------------------------------------
*"So it’s not clear to me what differences we’ve had since I’ve been in the Senate. I think what people might point to is our different assessments of the war in Iraq, although I’m always careful to say that I was not in the Senate, so perhaps the reason I thought it was such a bad idea was that I didn’t have the benefit of U.S. intelligence. And, for those who did, it might have led to a different set of choices. So that might be something that sort of is obvious. But, again, we were in different circumstances at that time: I was running for the U.S. Senate, she had to take a vote, and casting votes is always a difficult test."


"Not only was the idea of an invasion increasingly popular, but on the merits I didn't consider the case against war to be cut-and- dried." <"Audacity of Hope," 2006, p. 294>
http://facts.hillaryhub.com/archive/?id=5651

[atal]

46. I hear what you're saying

but I'm still going to La La La La-ing away with fingers in my ears...

Lalalalalala ;)

[ErinBerin84]

26. ok, fair enough.

Here is my opinion:

Anything that Barack Obama does cannot possibly fuck up the country more than John McCain will. I truly believe you when you say that it's not racism, but more of fear of the inexperienced or unknown. But at the same time, it is not my fault that you personally feel alienated by the "Obama machine" or that Obama supporters have offended you. I apologize for them all. However, this "revenge style" politics is what alienates a lot of young people from politics. Hillary has personally made me feel alienated as a Democrat, but I'm not bitter enough to exact my revenge on the entire country.

[MADem]

34. You assume too much. I look at the Big Picture and report on it, and

you erroneously take from that report that I feel "personally alienated." And then, ya gotta drag out that lameass "bitter" word. Oh, and "revenge" as well.

Stow that shit. It gets OLD. It's inaccurate, too.



It's why having a conversation here is getting more challenging by the day. Too much assumption. False assumption, too.


FWIW, I don't feel "personally alienated." I think Obama is a bullshit, flash/no substance candidate, I think he's not very smart, not very sharp, and a bit overconfident in his own facilities, but despite that, if he gets the nomination, I will vote for him and PRAY that he picks a decent cabinet--much as the GOP hoped and prayed when they voted for their inferior candidate, Bush.

He doesn't "alienate" me, I simply think he is the shittier of the two Democrats. What he does, with his crappy MLK imitation and his high-flown oratory that doesn't say shit, is make me think he's a big bullshitter. He's got that Reagan thing going on. I thought he was a con man, too.

Now, given that I am going to vote for the shittier candidate, if he wins, your "revenge" scenario doesn't apply to me.

However, it DOES apply to those I drive to the polls (many dozens of older voters). And they don't WANT any fucking apologies. They aren't in "revenge" mode, either. They just don't have confidence in Obama. ANY confidence. Not even enough to do what I intend to do, if I have to.

They think he'd be a good VP, but they don't think he is sufficiently seasoned to be President. They want Clinton for her experience, for her Two-Fer Quality, and they believe that she is the best qualified to steer us out of this mess--NOT wet-behind-the-big-ears Obama. And AGE/EXPERIENCE are important to them; they believe, rightly or wrongly, that McCain is experienced, that he is a "moderate" who knows how to work with both parties, that he is a maverick and any pandering that he does to the far right/neocons is "insincere," and that he presents a tough world image so that no upstart nations will try to fuck with us (something that remains important to the Greatest Generation electorate).

Don't shoot the messenger, or assume that the messenger is part of the crowd. These people who automatically are crying "revenge" or "racism" don't have their facts in order. For every person who votes McCain for those reasons, there are probably ten who are voting for the Age/Wisdom/Experience factor and/or the "Closet Moderate" factor.

[ErinBerin84]

39. yeah, your post doesn't sound bitter at all

I didn't mean to aim the "personally feel alienated" at you, so don't assume that I did. You did refer to the Obama machine alienating a certain voting demographic, so is it unfair for me to ask for clarification? Jesus Chris. If I assumed something, I wouldn't ask for a reply. Your previous arguement sounded really superficial to me, and was leading me to make some simplified conclusions that I assumed could not be correct, so I asked for a response.

[MADem]

42. Whatever--this sure sounded like it was "personally" aimed at me

...it is not my fault that you personally feel alienated by the "Obama machine" or that Obama supporters have offended you....

[ErinBerin84]

44. I am honestly sorry

I will admit, using the codified "bitter" and "alienated" words, they do kind of make me sound like an asshole. I was responding to the previous post describing that in older people, "revenge is a dish best served cold" and that the "Obama machine and their supporters have alienated them", so I did not mean to make it sound as if I pulled those out of full air. Pundits keep tiptoeing around the issue and saying "Women are coming up to me on the streets and saying how they feel like they're being mistreated and they are talking about 'Revenge Voting'! As an Obama supporter, I am insulted by that, but only because it seems like such a caricature and oversimplification of what those women probably are motivated by. Of course, any dialogue that the pundits could offer on any generational divide is useless and unintelligent. Thanks for responding , but this was not a personal attack against you.

[Steely_Dan]

48. Excellent Post

Very much a "reality based" post. You will get pummeled for it mercilessly.

-P

[MADem]

51. They can't handle the truth.

It interferes with the "vision"--I remember, four years ago, all of the "Visualize the Kerry Inauguration" and "What Teresa will do in the White House" posts. Never mind the "He needs to respond" and "He needs to get tough on these bullshit, unfair attacks" posts. Oh, no, far better that he "stay above the fray." Yeah, sure.

It's the same nonsense, now. The anointed one can do no wrong. He will be handled with kid gloves, just "because." Everyone just MUST see how wonderful he is, again....just "because."

They actually believe that. They have no idea what is ahead if he gets the nom. It'll make a shitstorm look like a spring shower.

Oh well, the weather's getting nicer, and there's yardwork that needs doing! No sense even trying to discuss these issues honestly; it's all "team sports" up in here nowadays. Very few people want to look at the election from a realistic perspective.

[MADem]

20. Fear of the unknown? Naaah. It's being treated like this by the Obama supporters:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x5368968

When you tell an older person "Fuck you," ya know what happens? They just might turn around and say "No, fuck YOU!!!!"

And unlike the stoners who didn't stay "Clean for Gene" and who didn't turn out when needed for Screamin' Howard, those old bastards actually, reliably, show up and VOTE.

The geezer voters aren't afraid of a goddamned thing. Trust me--I take them to the polls, and they're tougher than most of the high school kids who whine and cry and take offense at the slightest provocation. This is the Greatest Generation, many of them. They've lived through The Great Depression, World War Two, The Atomic Age with the Russkies pointing nukes at us, Duck and Cover, the Doomsday clock--nothing scares these tough old bastards.

Don't count those chickens, even if they come home to roost---to mix a few metaphors. You just may find that they end up in the McCain chicken coop. After all, no one likes to be ignored, marginalized, ridiculed and worst of all, INSULTED.

And the only group to blame will be the Obama supporters who have spent the last several months making FUN of them. You think you're going to be able to do a little late-stage asskissing and smooth all that over? Think again. They're old, they aren't stupid.

The funny thing is, revenge is a dish best served cold. All of the folks here who take such great delight in ridiculing the elderly? You'll be there one day, and what goes around, comes around--and sometimes it comes around on steroids.

[Taxmyth]

31. Starred response

You get a big star for that response. And it will be an ongoing problem for an Obama nomination to succeed to the Presidency. All those people that were ignored, marginalized, ridiculed and worst of all, INSULTED, are not going to lift a finger to assist in the Senator's general election chances and may in fact, work to oppose it.

[AX10]

52. I am young and I don't feel any excitement for Obama

I know the older folks are tough as nails.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

22. There's no good reason to vote for McCain over Obama.

There's only racism.

[Taxmyth]

32. Good enough reason

and one that has not been effectively countered. Can it be?

[MADem]

43. Well, that's a handy excuse, I suppose.

Treating the elderly like shit--ageism--now, that's not a "good" excuse, eh?

:eyes:

They should just suck it up, accept the insults, and smile. Yeah, that's the ticket!

[AX10]

53. Also, the left wing has...

be using the race card as a means to justify anyone not voting for Obama.
This crap is just that, crap! It will backfire in the GE.

[fifthoffive]

24. I don't really understand why a Democrat would vote for McCain

Obama's and Clinton's positions on issues are not that far apart. They are both much more different from McCain than each other.

I actually heard someone say that if Obama is the Democratic nominee, she'll vote for McCain because Obama is too young. She went on to say that she and everyone from her generation (she's in her 60s) was sick and tired of ageism and she wasn't going to put up with it from the President.

Honestly.

I have no idea what she was talking about. Sounded to me like she was looking for any reason not to vote for Obama as it would be politically incorrect to give her real reason.

I told her that not voting for someone based on age alone was the same as not voting for someone based on race or gender and she should educate herself on all of the candidates and make her decision based on rational thought. Then I walked away.

People don't need a rational reason to vote against someone, and that's what a lot of Americans do.

[MADem]

28. Here ya go--this is what she was talking about:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x5368968

[BlooInBloo]

27. Sugarcoat it however you like, they're just fucking jackasses. Just like the CT electorate.

[Taxmyth]

33. Good words to win the hearts and minds of those you need on your side

NOT.

[ErinBerin84]

35. ok....

Reply to what I said. I am at least trying to engage in some discourse with you so I can understand your position better.

[BlooInBloo]

37. Anyone who doesn't vote for the Democratic nominee because of some schmoe on the internet...

... is about the most worthless piece of excrement I can think of.

[paulk]

40. yup, they sure are...

and Joe Lieberman is still Senator.

[Forkboy]

45. Here..this is for any fucking reject who is thinking about McCain..

...especially those extra dumb idiots who threaten to do because someone was mean to them.

So, You Want To Be A McCain Democrat?

AN ALARMING number of Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton supporters are telling pollsters they won't support the Democratic ticket if their candidate doesn't win the party's nomination. This, my friends, could mean four more years of Bushist backwardness.

Look before you jump. Democrats thinking of voting for John McCain should ask themselves if they want a hot-tempered, right-wing Republican in the White House - keeping his foot on the gas in Iraq, sentencing women to illegal abortions, and pouring cement around President Bush's tax cuts for the rich.

--

Can't tell Shi'ite from Shinola. Our foreign policy expert, while in Iraq, said over and over that Iran was training Al Qaeda in Iraq. No such thing is happening. Iran, a Shi'ite country, has been training and financing Shi'ite extremists, not Al Qaeda, who are Sunni insurgents. No wonder McCain says we'll have to be in Iraq for 100 years. He doesn't know who's fighting whom.

--

The Supremes. The day the next president takes office, five of the nine Supreme Court justices will be over 70. John Paul Stevens will be 88; Ruth Bader Ginsburg, 75; Anthony Kennedy, 71; Stephen Breyer, 70; and, I smile as I write this, Antonin Scalia is 72.

http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/editorial_opinion/ope... /

[crankychatter]

47. no matter how carefully couched, this is another tantrum thread

we won't be threatened

tell your chums not to let the door hit them in the ass on their way to the RNC

[JVS]

49. Because they (those who vote for McCain, not all Hillary supporters) suck