So... were the Swiftboat Vets lying or not?

[redqueen]

A newbie "Clinton supporter" says:

"The basic facts that the swift-boat guys uncovered proved Kerry to be a liar so far as his Viet Nam/Cambodia exploits were concerned. He put himself up as a hero and they shot him down. It was not necessary for Kerry to be a hero his real story was compelling. Not good enough for Kerry, he had to be a hero and we got screweed because we did not dare question him. We wanted it to be true, and it was a lie and Kerry disappeared like a trip up the Mecong into Cambodia on Christmas Eve. Enough about Kerry, I know his story, I was there.

Vet this flawed candidate and do it now. Obama has to come clean about the nutty reverend and throw him under the bus. The Rethugs are going to destroy him with his association to Reverend Wright."

[jobycom]

1. Sounds like my friend who narrowed it down to Obama or Fred Thompson.

He thought they were so much alike than when Thompson dropped out, he asked what I thought the chances of Fred being Obama's running mate were?

I told him pretty good. Hey, at least he'll vote Democrat. Even if he doesn't know it.

[redqueen]

2. So... it sounds like you're implying that the Swiftboat Vets were lying...

as your friend doesn't sound like the sharpest tool in the shed, so to speak.

[jobycom]

6. My friend isn't exactly unsharp.

Just very uninformed in politics.

[Changenow]

35. They were liars. No doubt about it.

Why do you ask?

[redqueen]

39. Cause I know we have lots of 'visitors' and if they haven't

got their minds tightly locked down to new information, perhaps they might learn a thing or two.

:)

[Changenow]

44. Anyone who thinks there was truth

to that smear isn't going to change their mind now.

[redqueen]

53. Ah, one never knows...

I do have HOPE! :D

[Lone_Star_Dem]

54. Perhaps a few are in need of a high colonic?

Some do seem to be so full of crap it's coming out their ears.

[scoobiedavis]

3. The swift-boat guys were liars

They lied. Eric Boehlert documented their lies: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2006/05/03/eric-boehlerts-lapdogs_n_20318.html

The Kerry campaign chose to ignore the attacks until it was too late.

[redqueen]

8. Yeah... thought so.

I was *almost* surprised to see someone here spewing their lies as fact. Almost.

[NJSecularist]

52. They didn't ignore the attacks. They just didn't have enough money to fight back.

The Kerry campaign chose public financing, and with that came an $85 million dollar limit. They had a choice. They could either

a) spend precious money on ad buys to combat the Swift Boat attacks and take away valuable money that needed to be spent in the finals days of the campaign in Florida or Ohio

or

b) or hope that the attacks would pass and not effect Kerry and not use money on fighting the Swift Boat thugs, which would be needed in the final days of the campaign in Florida and Ohio.

They chose the latter, and obviously it didn't work out.

But Kerry's campaign did fight back, and they fought back hard. There were just limits to what they could do with public financing.

[blm]

65. When was it too late, scoobie? Eric's article is also clear that the counters made WEREN'T REPORTED

and were ignored by newsmedia.

The swifts didn't do Kerry in - RNC worked for four years to steal 2004 for Bush and the DNC let them do it under the four years of Terry McAuliffe.

The newsmedia used the swifts as the EXCUSE, and so did Terry "Refuse to secure the election process even after 2000's theft' McAuliffe.

[dchill]

68. The MS of M Swiftboated Kerry way more...

than that bunch of obvious lying right-wing boors. Their amateurish, drooling attack was given way too much credibility and air time by the mediawhores.

[blm]

76. Exactly - and Dan Rather has admitted that corporate media NEEDED to protect Bush for the

favorable rulings they expected to get from a second Bush term.

[karynnj]

80. exactly

How bad it was can be told by one fact - the media treated the people with Purple heart bandaids at the Rep convention as if they were wearing funny novelty hats.

[flpoljunkie]

94. And now the media is working overtime to defend McCain on his "100 years in Iraq"-thereby endorsing

McCain's unending occupation of Iraq. The media, with few exceptions, gives McCain a complete pass here. Andrea Mitchell, in her new show on MSNBC, has defended McCain for three straight shows. It is quite remarkable when you think about it--really unprecedented.

[2rth2pwr]

4. "seared I tell ya, seared.."

[mrreowwr_kittty]

5. They were totally lying about his experiences in Vietnam

Ted Koppel made an ass out of John O'Neill on Nightline, confronting him with footage from sending a crew over there to interview witnesses. It vindicated Kerry, and O'Neill was left stuttering and stammering and waving his book around.

Phase 2 of the effort had a grain of truth to it: They went after Kerry's antiwar activism. They got former POWs and their widows to claim Kerry "dishonored" them by testifying before Congress about atrocities committed by GIs. It was a really deceitful sleight-of-hand. The POWs were mostly pilots who had been shot down. They had nothing to do with the infantrymen that Kerry was talking about.

[JuniperLea]

21. I think Kerry did the right thing...

Same as the those who revealed the torture in our current POW camps and prisons.

[blm]

34. POWs in that ad were lying, too. They claimed they were tortured with Kerry's testimony, but the

truth is that the torture ended a couple years BEFORE Kerry's testimony.

The CORPORATE MEDIA KNEW THE TRUTH But did not care to spread it or any of Kerry's counter attacks on the swifts.

[Marrah_G]

7. You are assuming it is an actually Clinton supporter

I wouldn't lay claim to anyone saying that.

Pretty sure that person is not really a Democrat.

[redqueen]

10. Good point.

I'll put that part in quotes.

:thumbsup:

[Marrah_G]

12. Heh... thanks. They do come in all shapes and sizes.

[karynnj]

31. Excellent point - I would assume that this person was a RW freeper

attempting to cause chaos - pretending to be a Clinton supporter - hoping to primarily hurt her. (Unless he completely bought the liars story, he would have to know that what he would say would be rapidly debunked on a Democratic board.)

There is so much wrong with what he wrote - but here is a short debunk
1) Kerry was a highly decorated officer because of risking his life to rescue a marine, for which he got a Bronze Star with Valor, and because he got a Siver Star because he led an action to avoid an ambush using a solution that he had earlier worked out for that type of ambush that likely would have led to men lost. He had explained his idea earlier and convinced his peers of its merits. He led the action and they had success against the ambush. In the course of it, he jumped off the boat and shot a North Vietnamese soldier who had a rocket launcher pointed at his boat. Senator Warner, who had been Secretary of the Navy defended Kerry's medal for this and the best account (that praised Kerry the most) was written by a conservative Chicago Tribune editor who was one of the other officers. (Kerry's own account dealt with the realization that it nearly led to him and all his guys being killed, rather than its heroics.)

2) Kerry's Cambodia story was never an attempt to say he was a hero. The RW found a Kerry Senate speech on the covert actions in Central America which Kerry was against. In it he made an analogy to the US crossing covertly into Cambodia during the Vietnam War. It gave an accurate historical account of the Johnson and Nixon administrations abusing Cambodia's neutrality. He added a person account of being a soldier and crossing an international border. In Tour of Duty, an excerpt from Kerry's journal told of at minimum dropping soldiers near the border - and it was clear that he was very unhappy. This was all conflated - In the Senate speech Kerry spoke of Christmas Eve, he did not name the President, who he said was not admitting they were in Cambodia. Historians of the Vietnam War show that in the time Kerry was there, people did go through those canals into Cambodia.

Speaking in a Senate speech nearly 20 years later, Kerry may have had the date off by a month or so (conflating the Christmas Eve at the border with later trips) - but it happened and the gist of the comment was true. In addition, Kerry's intent in the Senate was not to say he was a hero for doing it, but rather to say that it was wrong and our soldiers should not be asked to do it.

In addition to questioning Kerry's honesty - to counter it Kerry, in the wake of Reagan's death, would have had to refight why arming the Contra illegally and Reagan's covert Central American wars were wrong. (Remember that many Democrats were publicly in favor of legally supporting the Contras - including the Clintons.)

[george_maniakes]

38. How fucked up do you have to be to think supporting the contras...

was a good thing? Burning down soft targets to bring down the standard of living of everyone so you will eventually get their support is
a fucked up thing.

[redqueen]

40. They don't see past dollar signs...

[karynnj]

60. Either I need to learn to write better or you need to read it slower

I think Kerry was 100% right on the Contras - and almost everything else. My point was that there was a reason that Kerry did not bring his incredible work on that up - and that was because even in the 1980s, a majority of people in this country supported it. IN 1988, Gore ran with supporting the Contras as an issue. the Clintons were for it. In addition, Kerry was the one who proved that the CIA turned a blind eye to letting cocaine into the country. What % of the country do you think what vote true when asked if the Reagan era government did this?

This is one of the many reasons I completely admire Kerry. That investigation was needed for the reason you state, but it led to him being called a "randy conspiracy nut" by Newsweek. When the CIA conceded the Kerry report was accurate - it was never given much press.

My point was that in 2004 with the climate you remember, this was not an accomplishment that Kerry could tout.

[george_maniakes]

66. I'm shocked by how americans dont seem willing to hold your politicians accountable....

If somebody farted in the canadian parliament ten years ago and it just came out now they'd be publicly humiliated (well not really but you get the idea). You have people like gore and clinton believing supporting the contras was a good thing and noone holds their feet to the fire. I mean really who's running the show down there?

[karynnj]

78. As you can see - the answer is that Bush and Cheney are running the asylum

(I did see in 2004, the your infinitely smarter electorate, in a poll chose Kerry by about 85%.)

[Forkboy]

41. Lots of people pretending on both sides to create discord between the two sides.

Which admittedly isn't hard to do right now.

[Marrah_G]

48. Totally easy to do

I just totally jumped on someone who didn't deserve it because I'm all on the defensive from these pretenders.

Maybe I should have waited until after the primaries to come back.

[Forkboy]

51. Nah...it's good you're back now.

I know we don't seem to agree on much, but I know you're no phony, and that's always cool to have here.

[Marrah_G]

84. Right back at you!

It would suck if we all agreed on everything :)

[NashVegas]

9. Yes. Anonymous Message Board Users Speak For Everyone!

[redqueen]

19. Huh?

Are you relating this OP to the thread about that post from February in which some idiot said stupid things about Hillary?

Cause that would make sense IF and only IF that thread was started to DEBUNK the BS...

[Marrah_G]

11. Also do you have a link- I would like to see who said that.

[LostinVA]

13. I doubt this was someone who actually plans to vote Dem

[redqueen]

16. Same here.

[jefferson_dem]

18. Dubious. Low count newbie posted it.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=5367602&mesg_id=5369672

[rox63]

14. They were f&%$ing liars of the worst kind

Anyone who says otherwise is an ignorant asshat or worse. :grr:

[niyad]

15. the swiftboat liars were telling the truth? do tell, what ARE you smoking?

[redqueen]

17. Uh no... you need to address question that to the fuzzy-haired newbie...

as it isn't yours truly spewing RW talking points here.

I'm simply exposing the dumbassery.

:hi:

[niyad]

24. thanks--I know it didn't sound like you, so I was surprised. didn't

see a link to anything, so was confused.

note to self: finish your coffee before you read anything else.

[JuniperLea]

20. Lies, lies, lies...

Filthy lies. Damned lies.

There is enough questionable "support" and "associations" on both sides, imho. I think they should all be dropped by both camps (remember, I'm not in either camp).

If you want to bash Obama for Wright and Farrakhan, you must also bash Clinton for all her connections.

I would prefer to end it all, stop the in-fighting, start lifting up your own candidate, and ignore... do not respond to... do not engage in the stupid daily slap fight!

[redqueen]

22. I hear ya... but this thread is for our "visitors".

Just in case any of them might be amenable to some educatin'.

:7

[JuniperLea]

23. I'm all fer learnin'em somethin'

Darn tootin'!

I think I just channeled by grandfather! LOL!

[endarkenment]

25. Kerry took their challenge and they ran away.

Not only are they liars, they are low down dirty cowardly liars. Unfortunately Kerry did not go after these asswipes until long after the election was over. He should have taken them to court on libel charges the moment this crap surfaced.

Kerry takes oilman Pickens up on $1 million Swift Boat challenge
http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2007/11/16/kerry_takes_oilman_pickens_up_on_1_million_swift_boat_challenge/

No sooner did Kerry take Pickens up on his challenge than the lying coward backed away and changed the terms of the deal. The entire thing was bullshit, and soon as Pickens had to put his money where his fat lying mouth was, he took a powder.

[redqueen]

28. Amazing how such things escape the notice of some people, huh?

:P

[karynnj]

42. As a public official the bar is set very high

In addition, Kerry could not file a libel suit in August, at the start of the General Election. the suit would clearly not be resolved and it could create havoc. It also would impact the far more fragile guys who were his crew.

[endarkenment]

69. It would have shut these fat lying fucks up.

Yes indeed the case would have not gotten to court to well after the election, but Pickens appears to love his money far more than he loves fucking us over. They would have shut the fuck up and Kerry would have looked like a fighter. I could be wrong of course, but whatever he did do simply did not work.

[karynnj]

89. Actually, if the OBL tape wouldn't have "appeared" in the last week, Kerry would be President

the narrative would be that he handled it by giving the media a huge amount of proof that showed them to be liars. He would be praised for having kept his dignity, integrity and run a clean high minded campaign.

As it is, history will likely be far kinder on Kerry than many here on this board are. He still is a brilliant man who has served his nation using his intelligence, decency, courage and integrity for many years. That is far better than can be said of many who have worked against him.

[Mooney]

26. Jesus, they've really got nothing.

The end of this sorry charade cannot come soon enough.

[madrchsod]

27. yes they were lying out their asses

they were pissed cause kerry was braver than they were

[crankychatter]

29. They ALL got paid BIG

I knew two of them... they sold everything... quit their jobs... went skiing in switzerland... landed jobs doing military consultation in the movie industry...

that sort of thing

personally I wouldn't care if Kerry was a Dental Assistant in Seoul, but that "reporting for duty" thing?

glech

he had enough faults as a candidate to lose without the swift boat guys

[redqueen]

30. It pays big to sell your soul, no doubt.

As for your opinion about Kerry... I don't share it.

[crankychatter]

33. it's water under the bridge, and anyhow he won, eh?

I was in VVAW... got nothing against Kerry

I have BIG problem with the Party

We haven't had a non-Southern Dem in the White House since JFK

A non-Southern Dem (read pasty faced Eastern Seaboard liberal DC insider) against a Republican Incumbent in war time?

effing suicide

Kerry was nuanced to the point of indecipherability.

[redqueen]

37. Ah, but can we really blame the party?

The voters chose him, did they not?

[crankychatter]

45. that's another whole discussion

but yes, they did not

another time

you're a smarty and that's good

I need espresso, and that's bad

(((redqueen)))

keep making me think

[redqueen]

Awwww, thanks.

:hug:

Enjoy your caffeine. :D

[karynnj]

92. There were just TWO Southern Democrats elected

since JFK, who were not incumbents. That is too small a number to make this comment. In fact, had Ohio been fair, you would see how silly the comment is because the last 4 Democrats elected would be:

2 Southern Governors

and

2 MA Senators, with initials JFK, with thick hair.

Now, no one in their right mind would say years from now - well, to win we need either a Southern governor or another MA Senator with initials JFK with good hair. (Not to mention MA might miss the importance of those qualities and elect Senators with other initials or who are balding.) Yet the two categories would have the same numbers of wins.

Clinton is more "pasty faced" than Kerry ever was. (As were both Dean and Edwards.)

[karynnj]

49. He was a good enough candidate to easily beat the others to the nomination

and he nearly won with after his great debates. Kerry's theme "Call to service" included not just the was service, but his grassroots work against the war, and about 2 and a half decades of service as a prosecutor, lt governor and Senator. Maybe he wasn't your candidate , but he has more to his credit than anyone running in 2004 or 2008.

[blm]

79. He WON all his matchups. The RNC stole that election for Bush and McAuliffe's DNC

sat on their hands for four years and let them do it.

Kerry won. How did the DNC do getting Dem votes secured?

[Pisces]

32. Wow, sounds like Clinton and Bosnia. The truth wasn't good enough for her.

[beachmom]

67. LOL. It sounds nothing like Clinton and Bosnia, which was documented

thoroughly to have been an outright lie. Not just by videotape, but by the pilot of the plane. Not just by the pilot, but by the girl reciting the poem. Not just the Bosnian girl but by historical information at that time, that the war was over. Not to mention reporters who were there and are still on TV!! The Swifts had NOTHING. Zero. Nada. They had no video, no Naval records, no independent eyewitness accounts, no journals or letters from that time. NOTHING. All they had was what was coming out of their mouths, which sometimes changed over the course of a week.

[karynnj]

86. No - Kerry truth was reality

HRC made Bosnia up.

[rasputin1952]

36. Not only were they liars, they were very well paid liars...

and that makes them standard RW shills at best, or RW "whores" at the other end of the spectrum.

[last_texas_dem]

43. IIRC, the biggest "lie" that they found on Kerry

was that he was off by a couple of days in terms of when he was in Cambodia, or something along those lines. They just threw out as much shit as they could and hoped something stuck; it wasn't the substance that mattered. Much of the media didn't really work to debunk their claims and treated their bullshit claims against Kerry as a "he said/he said" thing, so that helped them in their efforts to damage John Kerry.

[Major Hogwash]

110. Thank gawd somebody remembers correctly!

You nailed that situation right on it's head!

The media just sat around and picked their noses while Bush sent more troops to die in Iraq and thought they were doing us a favor!

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

46. Lying...but Kerry padded a tad.

Just an opinion.

[redqueen]

55. Hahahahaha...

that can't be an opinion, can it? Either he padded or he didn't, right?

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

59. A tad.

[redqueen]

61. A smidge?

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

64. A micron.

:hi:

[endarkenment]

70. an asswipe?

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

71. Only if that's the term you're comfortable with.

[beachmom]

73. No he didn't. Please show where Kerry "padded" his time in Vietnam.

Which medal do you think he did not deserve?

Was the 90% casualty rate for upriver operations too much of a cake walk to classify as combat?

Do you think the burden of living with the fact of killing a man was not much of a big deal at all?

Do you think Kerry went there to pad his resume, including volunteering for Swift Boat duty?

I mean, the comments from you and others are disgusting. Hey let's disparage a vet's service and downplay it just because we don't like him.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

77. I can't.

The tad: equals his ability to get assigned to the unit of his choice, dangerous or not.

IOW, he had connections.

I don't question his service, once there.

[beachmom]

82. Connections? Um, he volunteered just like all the other guys.

Only volunteers were on swift boats. Prior to that he was on the USS Gridley. The swift boats originally only did coastal patrol which wasn't that dangerous. That's what Kerry figured he would get, although it was still less safe than being on a big ship. Then when he arrived the mission changed. I have read absolutely zero about connections, as far as where he was assigned. Yes, he knew "people", but I see nothing to suggest he called in favors. And he left because he was wounded three times. Care to back up your assertions.

[karynnj]

83. He had connections

after all he roomed in college with a nephew of McGeorge Bundy and in high school and his first year at Yale dated Jackie Kennedy's step sister. However, he didn't seem to use them from "Tour of Duty". The only time he got what was considered a "plum" assignment was when he returned from Vietnam to report to the Admiral in Brooklyn. I assume the combination of his exemplary record and his background were considerations there.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

91. Yep.

[fedupinBushcountry]

93. WTF are you talking about?

Connections? What fucking connections, he VOLUNTEERED, have you ever served? You know it really irks the crap out of me when someone just spouts off crap, with not one shed of proof to back it up. You don't know jack shit about the military and especially the Navy. Funny, I guess my husband had "connections" because he put in to serve at different locations and got them. Sheesh!!! Educate yourself, damn.

It's really sad that you as a Democrat question the service of an honorable man, you are no better then those Swift boat liars.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

95. Kerry was working class.

While he was mixing with the Kennedys.

Got it.

[fedupinBushcountry]

98. No proof yet?

Got it.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

99. -

[beachmom]

100. Once again, nobody is disputing that Kerry knew people. But there is

nothing to suggest that he used connections for his assignment on the swift boats.

[blm]

101. His choice was only AFTER he served his first tour - and he CHOSE the most dangerous

assignment for Navy at the time - the swiftboats.

THAT was privilege GIVEN Kerry for his social standing or privilege to choose based on his already completed duty?

[karynnj]

106. Doesn't it make it MORE commendable that he served - and well, when he had the connections

to simply say that he had other priorities.

Your whole beef is that he was connected to the elite. No one questions that - his middle name is Forbes and he is a descendant of the first governor of Massachusetts. This has never been hidden.In fact, his family was upper middle class and an aunt paid for his education. He also worked (had a union card and all) during summers while at Yale. That was NOT mentioned on his web site - where he said he knew he had a privileged upbringing and that he wanted to give back through public service - which he has.

The point is that though he had connections - he did not use them to get out of anything. When he came back to the US, the first thing he was an advocate on was getting the VA to help soldiers who needed it and fighting for more assistance for the troops returning to no jobs. This was not for him - he had a fiancee and family who loved him, he was in good health and when he got out of the Navy, he would have many very good options.

What's so special being born into a working class family?

[karynnj]

85. Fantastic answer

I agree with you that people who blithely make these comments are intellectually lazy or unwilling to even think of what Kerry and the others there experienced. It seems clear that that operation was a nightmare that was hell for all the men involved in spite of it accomplishing little or nothing.

The first in Kerry's concluding paragraph from his Senate testimony shows how hard it must have been:
"We wish that a merciful God could wipe away our own memories of that service as easily as this administration has wiped away their memories of us. But all that they have done, and all that they can do by this denial, is to make more clear than ever our own determination to undertake one last mission: To search out and destroy the last vestige of this barbaric war; to pacify our own hearts; to conquer the hate and fear that have driven this country these last ten years and more. And more. And so, when, thirty years from now, our brothers go down the street without a leg, without an arm, or a face, and small boys ask why, we will be able to say “Vietnam” and not mean a desert, not a filthy obscene memory, but mean instead where America finally turned, and where soldiers like us helped it in the turning."

(entire paragraph quoted to give context and to show how Kerry thought they could find peace - for themselves and the world.)

[karynnj]

74. No he didn't - please tell me where Kerry spoke of any heroics

He never did. The medal accounts were from the Navy - and in the case of the Silver Star, the best account was from Rood, a Chicago Tribune editor who had been one of the other officers. In all the 2004 speeches, Kerry used "I served this country as a young man in Vietnam" as the standard phrase. That UNDERSTATES things if anything. He also used the analogy of heading the boat to the shore a few times.

Tour of Duty was written by an academic historian, Doug Brinkley, who used Naval records and spoke to over 100 other people. Kerry had no editorial control. Kerry's journals were not diaries - speaking of battles each day. They were journals where he tried to make sense of what they were being asked to do, his feelings and his observations. They included beautiful descriptions of the environment there, discussions of his fears - including many that begin to sound like his "how do you ask a man ..." question, and many thoughts on life and death in war. There were also Kerry's letters to his fiancee, family and friends. None describe battles - he likely was well aware how worried they already were.

It is from Kerry in Tour of Duty that the RW learned that he had asked if he could postpone it a year to study in Paris and that when he signed up for the swiftboat that it was because he liked the boats and they were doing coast guard like things at that point - the mission changed.

Oddly it was Bill Clinton, who made the point that he volunteered for what was a dangerous mission - in his "send me" speech at the convention. Kerry is understated in stating what he's done almost to a fault.

[Mass]

102. Yes, contrarely to many, if he used his relations (and I say if) it is to do his duty.

Sad to see you want to besmirch that. I thought I had seen everything today. I guess nothing will stop surprising me on DU, but really sad.

[BlooInBloo]

47. Only the voters in all their idiotic glory can destroy him...

.... And they've proven their willingness to destroy the best candidate time and time again.

Throwing an irrelevant person under the bus to satisfy timid white folks isn't gonna change that problem.

[beachmom]

50. Kerry was not lying about Cambodia. The SBVT were liars, and anyone

who thinks they "had a point" is no Democrat.

Facts on Cambodia:

http://swiftvets.eriposte.com/kerrycambodia.htm

His only error was the timing -- January '69, not December '68. I trust Douglas Brinkley, who was straight that Kerry had placed himself in Cambodia the wrong month, but the fact remains he did go into Cambodia. The other fact is that many missions were happening in Cambodia at that time, and have been irrefutably documented in our history.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/08/13/wus13.xml&sSheet=/news/2004/08/13/ixworld.html

"On Christmas Eve he was near Cambodia; he was around 50 miles from the Cambodian border. There's no indictment of Kerry to be made, but he was mistaken about Christmas in Cambodia," said Douglas Brinkley, who has unique access to the candidate's wartime journals.

But Mr Brinkley rejected accusations that the senator had never been to Cambodia, insisting he was telling the truth about running undisclosed "black" missions there at the height of the war.

He said: "Kerry went into Cambodian waters three or four times in January and February 1969 on clandestine missions. He had a run dropping off US Navy Seals, Green Berets and CIA guys." The missions were not armed attacks on Cambodia, said Mr Brinkley, who did not include the clandestine missions in his wartime biography of Mr Kerry, Tour of Duty.

"He was a ferry master, a drop-off guy, but it was dangerous as hell. Kerry carries a hat he was given by one CIA operative. In a part of his journals which I didn't use he writes about discussions with CIA guys he was dropping off."

Kerry confirmed this on Meet the Press in January 2005:

MR. RUSSERT: See if you could clear up one issue that I think has been left over from the campaign. And that is Steve Gardner, who was a foregunner on your PCF-44 boat, cut a commercial for the Swift Boat Veterans and made a very specific charge. Let me just show that and you can come back and talk about it a little bit.

(Videotape, Swift Boat Veterans for Truth ad):

MR. STEVE GARDNER: John Kerry claims that he spent Christmas in 1968 in Cambodia, and that is categorically a lie. Not in December, not in January, we were never in Cambodia on a secret mission ever.

(End videotape)

MR. RUSSERT: Now, the New York Daily News editorial wrote an editorial, and it said this. "As for Kerry, he might ask why the Swifties' attacks have been effective. The answer is his propensity to exaggerate. ... It's looking more likely that he exaggerated, if not worse, when he claimed through the years that he was in Cambodia on Christmas Eve '68. He said the memory was `seared' into him, but it's now clear Kerry was elsewhere, at least at that time. He has yet to explain. Until he does, the Swifties will have a powerful weapon in their arsenal."

And they refer, Senator, to a speech on the floor in which you said that you were there, that the president of the United States was saying you were not there, that there were troops in Cambodia. You have the memory seared in you. In a letter to the Boston Herald, you remember spending Christmas Eve '68 five miles across the Cambodian border. You told The Washington Post you have a lucky hat given to you by a CIA guy "as we went in for a special mission to Cambodia." Were you in Cambodia Christmas Eve, 1968?

SEN. KERRY: We were right on the border, Tim. What I explained to people and I told this any number of times, did I go into Cambodia on a mission? Yes, I did go into Cambodia on a mission. Was it on that night? No, it was not on that night. But we were right on the Cambodian border that night. We were ambushed there, as a matter of fact. And that is a matter of record, and we went into the rec-- you know, it's part of the Navy records. It's been documented by the other guys who were on my boat. And Steve Gardner, frankly, doesn't know where we were. It wasn't his job, and, you know, he wasn't involved in that. But we did go five miles into Cambodia. It was on another day. I jumbled the two together, but we were five miles into Cambodia. We went up on a mission with CIA agents--I believe they were CIA agents--CIA Special Ops guys. I even have some photographs of it, and I can document it. And it has been documented.

MR. RUSSERT: You'll release those photographs?

SEN. KERRY: I think they were shown. I gave them to the campaign, but...

MR. RUSSERT: And you have a hat that the CIA agent gave you?

SEN. KERRY: I still have the hat that he gave me, and I hope the guy would come out of the woodwork and say, "I'm the guy who went up with John Kerry. We delivered weapons to the Khmer Rouge on the coastline of Cambodia." We went out of Ha Tien, which is right in Vietnam. We went north up into the border. And I have some photographs of that, and that's what we did. So, you know, the two were jumbled together, but we were on the Cambodian border on Christmas Eve, absolutely.

MR. RUSSERT: Nixon was president-elect, not president, at that particular time. He wasn't sworn in until...

SEN. KERRY: In 1968, he wasn't sworn in yet.

MR. RUSSERT: But he was president-elect, not president.

SEN. KERRY: That's correct.

MR. RUSSERT: Many people who've been criticizing you have said: Senator, if you would just do one thing and that is sign Form 180, which would allow historians and journalists complete access to all your military records. Thus far, you have gotten the records, released them through your campaign. They say you should not be the filter. Sign Form 180 and let the historians...

SEN. KERRY: I'd be happy to put the records out. We put all the records out that I had been sent by the military. Then at the last moment, they sent some more stuff, which had some things that weren't even relevant to the record. So when we get--I'm going to sit down with them and make sure that they are clear and I am clear as to what is in the record and what isn't in the record and we'll put it out. I have no problem with that.

MR. RUSSERT: Would you sign Form 180?

SEN. KERRY: But everything, Tim...

MR. RUSSERT: Would you sign Form 180?

SEN. KERRY: Yes, I will. But everything that we put in it, Tim--everything we put in--I mean, everything that was out was a full documentation of all of the medical records, all of the fitness reports. And I'd call on those who have challenged me, let's see their records. I want to see the records of each of those people who have put up a challenge, because some of them have some serious questions in them, and it hasn't been appropriate...

MR. RUSSERT: So they should sign Form 180s for themselves as well?

SEN. KERRY: You bet.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6886726/

So he was not lying about Cambodia. He didn't "misspeak"; he told the truth, even if he had the exact date wrong. Although at both times he was near the Cambodian border.

Pretty disgusting that I had to put this together to refute what a Democrat said on this board.

[redqueen]

56. I agree... they're no Democrat...

but yeah... there do seem to be a lot of non-Dems pretending to be Dems... especially this time of the political season. :)

[karynnj]

75. Also it was an error in date speaking nearly 20 years later as a Senator

Not to mention that getting the date right would have changed absolutely nothing in the story. It was clearly not a lie.

But, given the RW on that - where Kerry was incontrovertibly in that area, on those boats, being shot at - imagine what they will do with HRC's Bosnia adventure. (That was a lie)

[Jakey]

97. This is problematical...

To my knowledge, none of Kerry's crewmembers have been willing to corroborate Kerry's claims. Do you have any info on that?

Second, if you look at this map...

http://www.nexus.net/~911gfx/vietnam/maps/nc48-06/nc48_06b.html

...and if Brinkley is correct about incursions in January and February when Kerry was operating from Ha Tien, it doesn't look like it's possible to go 5 miles into Cambodia from the relatively small river at Ha Tien that comprises the Vietnam/Cambodian border.

[beachmom]

103. You've got to be kidding me. Once again, my link:

http://swiftvets.eriposte.com/kerrycambodia.htm

But two of Kerry's crewmates — Wasser and Zaladonis — both told The Times the boat was in the vicinity of the Cambodian border and even fought an engagement with a Viet Cong sampan on Christmas Eve day.

"We patrolled a river on the border," Zaladonis said last week. "Unless I'm out of my mind or mistaken, that river was part of the border."

There are no after-action reports that pinpoint where Kerry's boat was in late December 1968. But a file from Navy archives in Washington obtained by The Times provides support for both sides.

An entry in a monthly summary of engagements for December 1968 reports that on Christmas Eve, "PCF-44 fired on junk on beach. Results: 1 sampan destroyed."

The entry was made by then-Capt. Roy Hoffmann, the overall commander of Swift boats and now one of Kerry's most vocal critics. There is no written location for the engagement, but it contains a coordinate used by the military to plot locations. The coordinate points to an area about 40 to 50 miles south of the Cambodian border, near an island called Sa Dec.

The entry also notes that the incident took place about 7 a.m., which would have given Kerry's boat another 12 hours to make it to the Cambodian border by nightfall. At a cruising speed of 23 knots, the boat could have covered the distance in about two hours.

This would be consistent with the contention of Kerry spokesman Michael Meehan that Kerry was in Sa Dec but reached the Cambodian border later the same day.



Edit: I don't have comments from them about January or February because the media only concentrated on December. Nobody has asked them about that. But clearly, they were "far inland". And the skipper does the navigation.

[karynnj]

105. They would be unlikely to even know

It could well have been better that they not know. Kerry would have likely been the one who read the map and told people where they were to go. From your map reading - the issue may have been those 5 miles. Kerry never said he went to Phonm Phen, he said they went into Cambodia. Five miles in is STILL breaking international laws.

In 2004, when the freepers were saying that NO swiftboats went into Cambodia, the Kerry team found audio on the Nixon tapes where John O'Neil spoke of going into Cambodia himself - with Nixon. Proving that 1) that swiftboats went there and 2) Nixon knew.

The fact is that the swiftboats went to Cambodia, Brinkley said Kerry did, and Kerry said he did - when speaking 20 years later in teh Senate. He was not saying it was heroic - this was a violation of international law.

Please tell me why you have any reason to doubt this when there seems absolutely no reason to. You do realize that no one here is likely to be able to get secret military records to give you what you want - and even then as what they were doing is illegal there may be no records.

You really have a problem if you are still obsessed with this. What motivation would Kerry, who has not lied even when it would help him, to make up a completely unnecessary lie IN THE SENATE RECORD at a point when probably no more than 200 people would have heard it - there was no CSPAN then. He could have made the same point about soldiers that he knew.

This makes it even less than Gore's comment that his mother-in-law and dog had the same medication - but it was cheaper for the dog - when the prices were right but the story wrong. It would be far less than HRC's Bosnia nonsense.

[Major Hogwash]

109. Every single man that was on the boat that night corroborated Kerry's story,

And they operated in that area all winter long. Maps are great, but they do not accurately reflect how the rains swell rivers in Southeast Asia. Many rivers are not even deep enough to navigate for 6 months of the year. But, during the rainy season, the rivers swell beyond their banks, and you can navigate much farther upriver than during the dry time of the year.

The swiftboater that claimed he was on that boat with Kerry on that mission was totally discredited. The Boston Globe as well as the Boston Herald had many articles on those missions that Kerry went on when he served in the Navy.

But, since Kerry is not running for President, I'm not going to waste any more time arguing with anyone about it.

[blm]

113. Important to note that some of the missions were NEVER going to be verified as they were CIA

missions using the swifts.

Getting some area details wrong while getting the essential story correct - how many of the critics can claim they get every detail right, or even COULD get every detail right considering that a lot of the missions COULDN'T be recorded officially because of the nature of the mission?

Maybe the RW critics AND the Dem ones should demand the CIA release its record of those missions instead of pinning all responsibility for the details onto Kerry who has never been free to speak to all of his duties.

[Vinca]

57. Must be a newbie Clinton supporter from the Free Republic. nt

[tabasco]

58. They should be banned. Obvious freeper.

Anybody who spreads the lies about Kerry is a freeper, AFAIC.

They don't hand out Silver Stars to just anybody.

[redqueen]

63. Oh yeah... you can bet I alerted...

:patriot:

[noel711]

62. Comments like these make me ponder the possible..

requirement of an intelligence test before
the individual can be registered to vote....

I know , I know.. we can't do that,
we are a democracy (so to speak) but just look
at the last eight years, and don't tell me the
unwashed masses have a lot to answer for..

[rinsd]

72. That should read Clinton "supporter"

There are so many newbie trolls here, I hide dozens of threads.

[walldude]

81. Anyone who says that is no supporter of any Democrat..

Newbie troll is more like it. Maybe the noob needs to smoke more "screweed" :rofl:

[TheDonkey]

87. Posters like that "newbie" deserved to be banned

possibly jailed for gross ignorance.

[H2O Man]

88. They were lying pieces of shit. n/t

[redqueen]

90. I would never insult poo that way.

Poo can be used as fertilizer which is a good thing... those tools are evil and they are only good for furthering the cause of evility.

[Major Hogwash]

96. McCain never denounced them, and he should have.

Because now he is going to undergo the same treatment as Kerry.
But, the difference is, the ones that are going to swiftboat McCain are REPUBLICANS, from his side of the aisle!

[beachmom]

104. Actually, he did. He said they were "dishonest and dishonorable". nt

[Major Hogwash]

108. No, McCain did NOT denounce them by shrugging his shoulders and quietly whispering that they were

being less than honest and they shouldn't question Kerry's military record.

Sorry, beachmom, but that does not qualify as denouncimg them.

LoL

McCain did NOT denounce them as LIARS and ASSHOLES or go on teevee and appear with Kerry in order to stop the swiftboating of Kerry.
He didn't say these men are dispicable shitheaded liars who are only doing this because they want Bush to be re-elected.

Sorry, beachmom, you may think McCain's few quiet comments on those total fucking assholes who trashed Kerry's record was denouncing them, but you'd be wrong.

[beachmom]

111. I see your point. I guess I was saying he wasn't 100% silent.

I agree that he was very disappointing. Kerry ran a great ad and McCain was in it from the '00 campaign, and McCain asked that the ad be pulled. He was already calculating for '08. Did you know that on 9/11 Kerry and McCain walked out of the Capitol building together? They were not in the same meeting when the evacuation was called. But friends find each other in a crisis like that. And then McCain went and threw it all away in the name of political ambition. Still makes me mad.

Yeah, McCain should have denounced AND rejected the Swift Boat Liars.

[blm]

117. I really believe BushInc has pics of McCain w/ that lobbyist and forced him to alienate Kerry

and promised reward of 2008 to stick with Bush.

[redqueen]

116. That deserves to be more well-known.

OP material, especially combined with his equivocating on torture.

His military credentials are supposed to be his strength.

[anonymous171]

107. Looks like Clinton brings the repugs too!

Too bad they're the wrong kind.

[gauguin57]

112. Of COURSE they were lying. ABC News went to Vietnam and found witnesses who confirmed

Kerry's (and the Navy's) version of events that happened on the swiftboat.

Hillary may not have been under fire, but Kerry sure was as he SAVED A MAN'S LIFE.

The lead swiftboat liar was basically hired by Nixon to debate Kerry on TV while the Vietnam war was still going on. Kerry TROUNCED him in the debate, and the guy was still pissed off 30 years later ... so he organized a bunch of guys to LIE about Kerry.

End of story.

[MBS]

114. nice summary , thanks n/t

[blm]

115. The day after Koppel's Vietnam footage, NO BROADCAST NEWSMEDIA discussed the findings

let alone furthered the report. Imagine if even ONE swift charge was verified from that report - the news networks would have been wall-to-wall coverage for the rest of the campaign.

THAT was the level of corporate media complicity that Kerry was faced with in 2004 - and the only reason Koppel could DO his report was because his contract allowed him to go after his own stories.