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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-05-08 08:40 AM
Original message
On Blaming the Victim
{1} "On Tuesday afternoon a frightful accident occurred near this village, by which two laborers were instantly killed, viz: Thomas Cox, who lived near the Catholic Church, on Pleasant Street, and William Sullivan, who resides about a mile above Wood’s Corners, on the King Settlement Road. ….The instrument of their destruction was a locomotive attached to a special train which left Binghamton early in the afternoon for Utica. ….

" The track hands had all received notice the previous day of the intended passage of the train and were on the look-out for it. Soon after three o’clock an alarm was heard by them, and the train was announced by one of the hands. On looking it, however, it was discovered to be a coal train on the Midland, which runs parallel and about one hundred feet from the DL&WRR at that point. The men at once turned to their work again, Cox and Sullivan with their faces to the north. Scarcely had the coal train passed them before the lightening special came upon them, its small noise being drowned out by the passing coal train. The foreman and one or two others of the gang who were at work about fifteen or twenty rods south of them saw the train and got out of its way, and tried to alarm the others and succeeded with all but these two. The engineer sounded the alarm whistle and rang the bell when about fifteen rods from them, but before they could get off both were struck, one thrown to the right and the other to the left and instantly killed. They were horribly crushed and mangled. The legs and necks of each were broken, as well as the skulls and many bones also. …..

"The train was running upwards of forty miles an hour, and we can not see that any one was really to blame except the injured men themselves, though we can’t see the necessity of running specials through our village, or any other, as it was at that fearful rate. A more fearful accident might have occurred at any one of the dozen crossings in our village, running as it was at a time when trains did not usually pass and were consequently unexpected."
--The Chenango Telegraph; Frightful Railroad Accident: Two Men Killed Instantly; June 11, 1874; page 3.

Yesterday, there was one of those threads that makes DU a valuable place to be, posted by ThomWV. It had to do with the reason that Martin Luther King, Jr., was in Memphis 40 years ago: two sanitation workers had died in a violent accident not unlike the one described above. I was reminded of this, in part, because of the contributions to the Memphis thread by a now "tomb-stoned" visitor from another dimension, who blamed the sanitation workers. We see that same coldness in the newspapers account here.

There was also a thread by Binka, which noted Casey Sheehan had died 4 years ago on the same date that Martin Luther King, Jr., was killed on. By no small coincidence, our visitor lead the attempts to blame the victims, rather than show a speck of the compassion that King tried to awaken in the mentally dead.

My goal isn’t to focus on the now tomb-stoned fellow, but rather the infection that produces the type of social pus he was expressing. We need to be aware of the fact that variations of "blaming the victim" can take place at any of the dozens of crossings on this forum, often in the most unexpected of places.

When we see it in the newspaper article from 1874, it is easy to see the stupidity of blaming individuals for their violent, tragic deaths. But the same infection that caused nativism 134 years ago, causes racism and sexism today. And, in the context of the current democratic primary, we see a media that is as prone to blaming Barack Obama for racism, and Hillary Clinton for sexism, as the Chenango Telegraph was able to identify the dead Irish railroad workers for their deaths.

The media, much like the tomb-stoned visitor, are of less interest to me than the democratic community. My concern is that the "-ism" virus, which mutates into racism, sexism, nativism, militarism, etc – is threatening to blind us.

{3}"Redemption Song"
--Bob Marley

Old pirates, yes, they rob i;
Sold I to the merchant ships,
Minutes after they took i
From the bottomless pit.
But my hand was made strong
By the and of the almighty.
We forward in this generation
Triumphantly.
Wont you help to sing
These songs of freedom? -
cause all I ever have:
Redemption songs;
Redemption songs.

Emancipate yourselves from mental slavery;
None but ourselves can free our minds.
Have no fear for atomic energy,
cause none of them can stop the time.
How long shall they kill our prophets,
While we stand aside and look? ooh!
Some say its just a part of it:
Weve got to fulfil de book.

Wont you help to sing
These songs of freedom? -
cause all I ever have:
Redemption songs;
Redemption songs;
Redemption songs.

I read a post on a thread in February which made me laugh. One of the more intelligent people on DU wrote that there was simply no comparison between the journeys of African slaves to the US, and of the Irish immigrants during the Great Starvation. It is a good example of when we do something related to, though distinct from "blaming the victim." It involves attempting to rank the horrors inflicted upon various group-members of our human family.

The English ships that had been used to transport Africans to North America for slavery were frequently the same ships used to transport Irish to America. The same merchants were making profits off of delivering human cargo. And, again by no small coincidence, yesterday one of my favorite DUers linked a version of Ziggy Marley performing his father’s last song with the Irish group The Chieftains. It is a hauntingly beautiful celebration of our common history.

If an African-American and an Irish-American were to argue on DU about their people’s rankings on the chart of historical suffering, little good would come from it. If the same two people find the common ground that the Marleys and the Chieftains found, can we not see the benefit?

We have large groups of democrats, which each contain several smaller groups, fighting about issues including racism and sexism in our society. Both are infections on our culture. Both harm living human beings. Both are very real.

We can continue to argue and fight. It is not any more intelligent, however, than is the closely-related behavior of "blaming the victim." We also have the option of joining together, and recognizing that we have much more in common than not, and that there is no benefit to trying to rank our personal and group suffering.

{3} "….Pain is pain, suffering is suffering – whether being wrongly imprisoned, wrongly placed in a concentration camp, or wrongly abused as a child. But pain is a component of suffering, but not suffering itself. There are no degrees of suffering. …

"I spent 20 years in prison, in a hell hole where people everyday tried to strip me of my dignity. … Hate took over everything. I was furious at everyone ….Simmering anger and hatred consumed me. ….Hatred and bitterness only consume the vessel which contains it. …I came to an understanding of who and what I am. Like Victor Frankl wrote about the concentration camps, I realized that prison provided me the tools to become all that I could Be. I was able to seize the opportunity to use these horrible conditions to find something above the law. I had an opportunity to go on an anthropological expedition into an unnatural laboratory of the human spirit.

"… Your reactions are the same as mine or anyone else’s. But you have the ability to wake up. That’s your salvation. Somehow, some way, you have to get over it. Hate can only produce hate. That’s why all these wars are going on, all this insanity. There’s too much anger in the US. People are too afraid, too numbed out. We need to wipe out all this hatred, fear, distrust, and violence. We need to understand, forgive, and love."
--Dr. Rubin Carter to our good friend Lois

I do not think that I am alone in noticing a current of simmering anger and bitterness on DU:GD-P. There have been some tense exchanges in the past few months. I recognize that I have certainly played a role myself. Many of us who used to be on friendly terms may not be, certainly not in the immediate future. But perhaps we can use DU as something of an unnatural laboratory of the human condition, and at least move towards some degree of understanding.

The first thing that I think we should understand is that we need to elect a democrat as president this fall. And we need to harness our energies, and work towards expanding the democratic majority in congress. And in state and local elections.

Let’s move forward.

Thanks,
H2O Man
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-05-08 08:43 AM
Response to Original message
1. K & R
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-05-08 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #1
7. Thank you. n/t
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Midlodemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-05-08 08:44 AM
Response to Original message
2. Just one of the many reasons I read everything you post. Thanks.
Edited on Sat Apr-05-08 08:44 AM by Midlodemocrat
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-05-08 11:20 AM
Response to Reply #2
8. The democratic party is
getting pretty close to "officially" identifying our nominee. It would be beneficial to have progressive and liberal democrats being able to work with our more moderate friends and associates -- both on DU and in the larger community. I think that there have been more voices of reason began to be heard about a week or so ago on GD-P. I hope it can continue.
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Hepburn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-05-08 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #2
16. Ditto on that...in fact, MEGA ditto on that!
Thanks for posting this, H2O...a K&R for you!

:hi:
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-05-08 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #16
22. Thank you.
I appreciate that -- and I also appreciate your contributions to some of the other discussions that I've been reading lately. It is good to keep focused on what is important, and you have a wonderful ability to cut through some of the nonsense on this forum.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-05-08 08:44 AM
Response to Original message
3. thank you, my friend
K&R
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-05-08 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #3
9. Thank you.
I have been reading a number of your contributions to threads, and though I do not always comment on them, I want to say that they are really appreciated. You bring a calm and rational voice to this forum, and make clear that we can discuss topics that some might find uncomfortable, and do so in a thoughtful way. Again, thank you.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-05-08 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #9
23.  thank you for your kind words.
Edited on Sat Apr-05-08 01:06 PM by merh
LOL, I'm not sure all of my posts are calm or rational. I try, but sometimes the insanity gets a hold of me. It is good to know that I'm not as outrageous as some accuse me of being. ;)

:hug:
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-05-08 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #23
31. I am always
proud to be friends with you. And I admire the way you think, the way you discuss .... and the way that you debate! You add a lot to this forum, and it's all good.
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shraby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-05-08 08:48 AM
Response to Original message
4. Thank goodness that poster
is gone. Du should never be a forum for any kind of hate.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-05-08 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #4
10. It seemed rather obvious
that fellow was looking to insult and disrupt. The moderators do a good job here. I was glad to see him go.
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Patsy Stone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-05-08 09:11 AM
Response to Original message
5. Proud to be number 5
Thanks, and good morning!
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-05-08 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #5
11. Good morning.
I am glad to be on the same team with you!
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Patsy Stone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-05-08 05:43 PM
Response to Reply #11
52. The pleasure
and honor is mine. :toast:
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mrcheerful Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-05-08 09:39 AM
Response to Original message
6. Very well written and your spot on
Edited on Sat Apr-05-08 09:41 AM by mrcheerful
What many who are caught up in the madness of the primaries don't realize is we are democrats second progressives first which means we are unable to march lock step behind anyone. Remember democrats elect presidents and we reject the thought of electing "leaders". We have seen what electing leaders does to our beloved country, remember GW papa and Reagan were leaders and they sucked on the corporate teat. I can only use my life as an example, in 51 years I have never once been caught up in the madness that one candidate was the one who was going to change everything back to the way it was before Nixon and Reagan. I vote for democrats not in the hope they can make sweeping changes, that never has happened, changes come slowly and at great cost. I vote democratic for one main reason, I want a level playing ground where I have the same opportunities as the next guy based on my abilities and not based on who donated a egg or a sperm cell was. Stop the bickering, if your a hill bot then no one can convince you that maybe BHO is better then your choice, if your behind BHO same thing, But your forgetting the big picture, its not who we elect its about everyone we elect. Without a strong democratic lead in congress it doesn't matter who we elect, the puke machine will block everything our elected president tries to do and we end up losing everything we know this country needs.

I REJECT PUKES IN POWER I WILL VOTE FOR DEMOCRATIC PEOPLE REGARDLESS OF MY FEELINGS ABOUT THEM. IT'S TIME TO END THIS PUKE RETURN TO THE PAST NONSENSE AND BUILD A FUTURE AMERICA BASED ON LIFE, LIBERTY AND THE PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS. I AM SICK OF FEAR, SMEAR AND QUEER POLITICS.

Edited for spell check, I mis speeled 4 words.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-05-08 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #6
12. Very good!
I know some area democrats who have invested a lot of time and energy into the campaign of Senator Clinton. They have had a long-term plan, and it required plenty of planning. I can understand that they feel some disappointment, and perhaps some resentment, because although Clinton carried this state, she will probably not be the nominee. Any of us who have been involved in politics for very long have had experience winning and losing campaigns, and can appreciate that it is difficult to lose. But that's part of the process: you keep on working towards the common goal.
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-05-08 11:40 AM
Response to Original message
13. k&r
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-05-08 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. Yikes!
This place is crazy sometimes.
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-05-08 11:54 AM
Response to Original message
15. The dehumanizing "-isms" ... treating one another as objects - a means to an end.
It's commoditization of human beings and intrinsically wrong - whether we do it to ourselves or others. For many reasons, some too personal to go into, I became aware that I was a child of the human family many years ago. My family has many dysfunctional members. My family has abusers and abused, many locked in codependent relationships playing out the spiritually barren melodrama of Victim/Villain/Rescuer. I am kin to both Nazis and Jews. I am kin to both slaves and slave-holders. I am kin to both molester and molested. I can no more relate to one than the other ... but I can choose to step beyond such roles and engage my life in more than mere melodrama. Viktor Frankl informed more than just Rubin Carter.

Lovely post, Patrick ... as usual, my friend. :hug:
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-05-08 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. I can really relate to this.
:hi:


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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-05-08 12:11 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. NICE pic. Don't care about the original post, but thread gets rec just for the pic.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-05-08 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #15
25. I have probably asked
you this before, but at my age, the memory isn't always so good: have you read much of J. Krishnamurti? This was another "thinker" that the good Hurricane suggested to me, many years ago.

"Love is the only thing which will give an answer to all our problems. ....Be alone, sometimes, and if you are lucky it might come to you, on a falling leaf, or from that distant solitary tree in an empty field." -- Krishnamurti
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-05-08 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #25
33. Long ago, I did.
Fromm, Gibran, Frankl, Sartre, Krishnamurti ... all (and many others) were on my buffet of reading. I just recently replenished my stock of Fromm and am about to embark on a "reunion tour."

I'm a terrible "student" ... having to rely on my ability to (literally) incorporate the material - plumbing my own psyche to (re)discover that which resonates with the material. For me, it's very much akin to reading exercise books - I get nothing from it without DOING it. I find myself without any ability to predict how long it takes to "get it" ... sometimes years, sometimes seconds. There's nothing "efficient" or "organize" about it. I sometimes feel like an academic cripple in that regard. It's not math or physics or computer programming. It's right brain stuff for me.

For the last week or so, I've been going to bed with Arundhati Roy. I listen to her until I fall asleep ... then wake up later, or in the morning, to see her lying face down beside me. "The God Of Small Things" is a VERY evocative work.

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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-05-08 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #33
35. Erich Fromm .....
One of the things that I enjoy is having my children and their friends browse through my little "home library," and ask me about general topics or specific books they are interested in. And in March, both the Vine Deloria Jr., and Erich Fromm books were taken off the shelves! Also A.S. Neill's classic "Summerhill." The added advantage is that after they finish with one book, I find myself having to look through it to be able to keep up on my end of the discussions.

I tell these young people that it is amazing: that a single book really can change your life. And that being true, I say, just think what a hundred good books can do!
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-05-08 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #35
38. I strongly suspect ....
... that, if I were to visit your place, I'd lose track of time and have to be ejected physically. :silly:

There've been times - days at a time - when I've "gone Walden" in reading, thinking, meditating, reading, pondering, ... some call it "cooking." Jimmy Buffett said some of us were taken out of the oven a bit early. I relate to that. Fruit Cakes.

I get the distinct impression that the Waterman oven is a great place to cook. :dunce:


I still remember my first visit to a library when I knew how to read. I couldn't have been more than five or six. I wanted to read EVERY book in the place so intensely I could almost taste it. It almost consumed me. That little kid still inhabits me.

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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-05-08 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #38
42. There are
17 rooms in this old house. 15 have book shelves. (Two are bathrooms, and have books in them, too!)

It's getting warm enough to sit comfortably in the cabin next to my pond, and read for hours. There are piles of books out there, too! Who knows? Perhaps one day we will be sitting out there, discussing books. Stranger things have been known to happen.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-05-08 11:58 AM
Response to Original message
17. Thanks Waterman. My grandma was burned out of her Ireland home in the late 1800s.
I NEVER in a million years would' ve equated the burdens of the Irish with the burden of the Africans brought to this country.

But, I do feel a kinship. I would hope that we ALL do.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-05-08 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #17
26. Right.
It is finding what we share -- that kinship -- which gives us strength.

Alone, we are like individual fingers that our enemy can easily break. Together, we form a powerful fist that is capable of protecting all of our interests. That's the strength of kinship.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-05-08 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. Thanks for putting it in words.
.
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me b zola Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-05-08 12:08 PM
Response to Original message
19. You inspire me more than you'll ever know
Thank you.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-05-08 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #19
27. Thank you!
That means more to me than you'll ever know. I really do appreciate that!
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annabanana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-05-08 12:17 PM
Response to Original message
21. Ah my dear H2O Man. Your have more intestinal fortitude than I.
I have not wandered much in the GD-P minefields.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-05-08 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #21
29. I try to be selective
in what I read, and what I do not read. While I have never used the DU "ignore" function, there are some things that I am not interested in reading. I thought the concept of "let it sink" was good in the sense of people not getting into arguments that are meaningless and worse. And about a week ago, the general tone seemed to be a little more positive here. Maybe that is something that both Clinton and Obama supporters can identify as a common goal.
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bleever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-05-08 12:45 PM
Response to Original message
24. K&R.
A beautiful and thoughtful essay. Thank you.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-05-08 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #24
30. Thank you.
Keep on fighting the good fight!
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bleever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-05-08 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #30
32. Too late to stop now!
:toast:
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-05-08 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #32
37. Right!
You know? That's so true!
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-05-08 01:05 PM
Response to Original message
34. Brilliant.
Edited on Sat Apr-05-08 01:05 PM by redqueen
Absolutely brilliant.

:applause:

Thank you... thank you... thank you.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-05-08 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #34
36. Thank you.
I think that I have found the value of quoting better minds than my own!
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-05-08 01:39 PM
Response to Original message
39. We must all summon that common ground we have within us
to win in November and to win decisively in both branches for if we don't, all other arguments and positions become mute and we live another presidential term of threats to those things we hold dear. And thank you very much for mentioning the Chieftains. :thumbsup:
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-05-08 02:03 PM
Response to Reply #39
43. One of the best concerts
that I've had the pleasure of attending was the Chieftains, with Eileen Ivers & Immigrant Soul opening.
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Lilith Velkor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-05-08 01:54 PM
Response to Original message
40. Have you finally come to your senses?
If so, I'm somewhat glad I took you off ignore. I know you don't really care, but your posts dehumanizing Clinton were one of the reasons I started to hate Barack. It felt like times in my past, when people I cared about got sucked into toxic groupthink.

I still don't trust you, but at least you're sounding reasonable now, and that's a start.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-05-08 01:58 PM
Response to Original message
41. Chenago Telegraph
This is an enjoyable thread -- not because my OP started it, because it really was inspired by two other OPs from yesterday -- but because of the interesting discussion taking place. I want to add a couple of things that I think are of interest. I must admit, however, that my mind tends to wander, and so I hope this seems connected to the OP.

The William Sullivan in the article was a distant relative. There were four extended families from the Old Sod, that were sending folks over; they worked, saved money, sent it over, and the next group came. His cousin was the father of Harry Stack Sullivan, born in Norwich, who became a leading psychiatrist in the United States. I know that a couple DUers are familiar with his work, because it was an important building block that helped with the advances made in the field.

A lot of Harry Stack Sullivan's ideas came to him when he was a lonely kid, growing up on his extended family's farm outside of Norwich (near Smyrna). His mother had a serious mental illness, and Harry lived with his paternal grandparents. They were on the margins of the community, as one can gather from the newspaper article about William's death.

I think that the childhood loneliness helped make Harry as insightful of an adult as he was. His only real childhood friend, Charles Bellinger, also went on to a successful career as a psychiatrist, but didn't have the impact that Sullivan did.

It was a struggle to get the county to officially change the name of the mental health clinic in Norwich (where I worked) after Harry Stack Sullivan, because he was gay. Long after his death, the county fathers were as infected by prejudice as the newspaper had been almost a century earlier against an Irish immigrant. Hatred is hatred, and the pain it causes individuals harms our entire society. I'm impressed how Harry used his experience to benefit others.

Around the same time Harry was living north of Norwich, a girl born in NYC was living with her grandparents just south of town. Her name was Ruth Fulton, and as an adult, Ruth Fulton Benedict became a leading anthropologist. Harry's being an Irish-Catholic boy, and Ruth being a WASP girl, insured that they never knew each other growing up on opposite sides of the track near Norwich. But as adults, they became friends. Knowing each other, and sharing common experiences, enriched both of their careers.

Here is the obituary that Margaret Mead wrote years ago for Ruth Benedict:



http://www.americanethnography.com/article_sql.php?id=7




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bleever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-05-08 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #41
45. "She was a figure of transition, binding the broken sureties of a past age,
to which she was a full heir, to the uncertainties which precede a new integration in human thinking. We shall not look upon her like again."

A beautiful epitaph.

It always amazes me to reflect that the social sciences are so new, less than a hundred years old for the most part.

Harry Stack Sullivan's contributions were enormous.

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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-05-08 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #45
47. It is interesting
for me to think about those two kids, taking in the day-to-day life in a town in rural upstate New York, and then growing up to be adults who make their mark in a positive way on the world.

I had to go to the store (just getting back). While I was walking out, a lady who I know casually came up and thanked me. Her daughter is among the students who I have recently spoken to about their role in the politics of this country. She said that her daughter had come home and had shared some of the papers that I had handed out. I said that it is fun for me, and said how I can remember her daughter as a little girl. The daughter is now the age the mother was when she had been a "hippie" protesting the Vietnam War.

She said it is great to see her daughter so interested in politics, and believing that her generation can make a difference. Like many of the hippies, the lady spoke about how her generation had been passionate about social justice. She said that then some people were crushed, and others were intimidated. She is happy to see her daughter being so positive.

This time, we win.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-05-08 02:56 PM
Response to Original message
44. If anyone has
the photo of Barack Obama with Pretty Boy Floyd Mayweather, I would appreciate it if you could post in on this thread.

Thank you,
H2O Man
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-05-08 03:48 PM
Response to Original message
46. Hear hear!
Yes indeed, we must elect a Democrat.

DU is a microcosm of the wider world. If we can't be civil to each other here, when we all share so many common goals and values, how can we expect to see civility in the wider world? Every time we bash each other's candidates we make it that much harder to elect a Democrat this fall.

Thank you for reminding us of that H2O Man.

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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-05-08 04:29 PM
Response to Reply #46
48. Thank you.
DU is indeed a microcosm of the larger society. It counts.
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sojourner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-05-08 04:47 PM
Response to Original message
49. A refreshing moment of reason and compassion. k&r.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-05-08 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #49
50. Thanks! n/t
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McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-05-08 05:41 PM
Response to Original message
51. Great post! All of the things which you have described are normal but
they are not inevitable. I have noticed that there are two extremes of people just as there are two branches on the Kaballah. One extreme thinks that all people are born innocent and society corrupts them and if we can only be freed from oppression we will be free to love and nurture one another. The other extreme thinks that we are born selfish and with a tendency towards violence and chaos and we must be civilized in order to repress their anti-social tendencies so that we can live in harmony. Whenever a group of people argue endlessly over anything, it usually boils down to a difference somewhere along this continuum.

The left wing has a "free" side that wants no rules and an "civil rights" side that fears oligarchy.

The right wing has a "libertarian" side that wants no tyranny and a "rule of law" side that fears crime.

Those who believe that we will all just get along if you take away the rules are naturally drawn to the Obama camp with its "Obama style".

Those who believe that the right wing conspiracy is always there trying to steal our money and shove oligarchy down out throat are naturally drawn to the Hillary camp with its "Hillary style".

If we put the two together on one ticket, I believe that we will achieve the perfect balance.
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NC_Nurse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-05-08 05:49 PM
Response to Original message
53. Love me some H2O Man! K&R AGAIN!!!
Thank you thank you thank you. Bless you. :loveya:
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-05-08 06:06 PM
Response to Reply #53
54. And thank you!
The democratic party is going to win a heck of a lot of contests in Novemeber, including the White House. We all need to start focusing on that as our goal.
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NC_Nurse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-05-08 06:17 PM
Response to Reply #54
56. Exactly! That's what I'm trying to do.
Thanks for more inspiration. :D
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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-05-08 06:14 PM
Response to Original message
55. Great post..yet even as I read it..
I could feel my own resistance. I came across some 'but'..'but'..places. I am reminded all the time that all that I see is inherent in me.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-05-08 06:22 PM
Response to Reply #55
57. Well that is okay.
We are all human, and that response is built-in. Far more important is that you are aware of it.
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DemReadingDU Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-05-08 06:39 PM
Response to Original message
58. Another great posting
Thank you, I learn a lot from reading your essays!
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-05-08 07:13 PM
Response to Reply #58
61. Thanks.
I appreciate that you take the time to read them.
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stop the bleeding Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-05-08 06:48 PM
Response to Original message
59. Thank you
I love the examples used to illustrate your point.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-05-08 07:14 PM
Response to Reply #59
62. The examples
are ones that I think people might be able to relate to. I hope so.
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-05-08 06:53 PM
Response to Original message
60. K*R Voice of Reason !!! n/t
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-05-08 07:14 PM
Response to Reply #60
64. Thank you. n/t
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ekwhite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-05-08 07:14 PM
Response to Original message
63. K&R
What a great post.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-05-08 07:16 PM
Response to Reply #63
65. Thanks.
I am glad that some DUers like the OP. I think that the thread has a lot of interesting contributions. It is what DU can and should be like.
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Maureen1322 Donating Member (392 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-05-08 07:27 PM
Response to Original message
66. "We The People"
will elect a Democrat in November. "We the People" will restore this country.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-06-08 10:28 AM
Response to Reply #66
69. Write on! n/t
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druidity33 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-05-08 07:49 PM
Response to Original message
67. care to
relay that Ziggy/Chieftains link?

K&R for another good one...

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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-06-08 10:31 AM
Response to Reply #67
70. I'll try ....
If this link does not work, just go to youtube.com and type in "ziggy marley the chieftains redemption song" and it comes up. But here is a link:


http://youtube.com/watch?v=MnJgIq48C9k
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druidity33 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-06-08 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #70
72. works fine
thanks for digging that up.

it's an interesting combination of styles...

:)

Ever heard Solas? Or Ashley MacIsaac?

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OwnedByFerrets Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-05-08 10:12 PM
Response to Original message
68. Glad to K & R
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-06-08 10:31 AM
Response to Reply #68
71. Thank you. n/t
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-06-08 04:53 PM
Response to Original message
73. Would That I Could
Give this an R, so I'll give it a K instead
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-06-08 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #73
74. The thread
is another one that reminds me of some of the fun times when DUers got along well.
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