Clinton Ramps Up Call to Count Fla, Mich. ....this angers me.

[madfloridian]

Clinton Ramps Up Call to Count Fla, Mich

"AP) HILLSBORO, Oregon - Democrat Hillary Rodham Clinton Saturday strengthened her pitch to allow disputed primaries in Michigan and Florida to be counted in the nominating contest, noting the vote totals had been officially recognized in each state.

"Some say their votes should be ignored and the popular vote in Michigan and Florida should be discounted. Well, I have a different view," Clinton said at a rally here. "The popular vote in Florida and Michigan has already been counted. It was determined by election results, it was certified by election officials in each state, it’s been officially tallied by the secretary of state in each state, and the question is whether those 2.3 million Democrats will be honored and their delegates seated by the Democratic party."

Both the Michigan and Florida primaries were essentially nullified after they were moved into January in violation of national Democratic party rules. The party voted to strip both states of their delegates and all the candidates, including Clinton and Obama, signed a pledge not to campaign in either state."

This is now officially a primary that is about Hillary Clinton, even if what she wants negates party rules.

I do not think she will let anything stand in the way.

[madfloridian]

1. They only care about two states. The other 48 mean nothing.

They will carry this fight to the convention floor, because no one is willing to stand up to the former president.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1967

And if they do they get called Judas.

[flpoljunkie]

13. Hillary: "I'm in it to win it, and I intend to do just that." The cost be damned!

[rodeodance]

38. That is silly that the states do not count--WHY is she pushing forth with the

primaries?

So include all the state primaries and the voters.

Its BO fans who do not want to count all the voters.


,,,,

hey only care about two states. The other 48 mean nothing.
Posted by madfloridian


They will carry this fight to the convention floor, because no one is willing to stand up to the former president.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/...

And if they do they get called Judas.

[jenmito]

51. She planned on wrapping up the nomination Feb. 5th, meaning NO states after that counted to her:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_eBIpEuO4U

[madfloridian]

61. Exactly, and her fundraisers verbally abused Dean at a meeting.

I think she should keep on. It is angering people, and it is showing her up to be making it just about Hillary.

FL and MI leaders, I now believe, worked with her campaign to make the election trend toward her....and to hurt Dean as chairman.

Her finance people attacked him at a meeting.

Clinton fundraisers attackeed him during a joint meeting with the Obama campaign and its financial backers.

It was a cheap shot.

http://www.observer.com/2008/more-clinton-donors-versus-dean

After Dean's initial remarks, Bernard Bergreen, a Hillary bundler, rose and said that Dean's address left out any discussion of Michigan and Florida, which was the critical bone of contention between the two campaigns.

Dean said that in his view, the question could be settled only after the primaries had finished in June, and after the superdelegates had made their decision.

At that point Clinton campaign finance chair Hassan Nemazee spoke up. He said Dean's response sounded to him as if the DNC chairman were "essentially trying to kick the can down the road" and that the chairman was not exhibiting the type of leadership one would expect. Nemazee said that since the campaigns obviously could not reach a solution on their own before June, Dean's argument amounted to passing the buck.

Dean then responded, heatedly, that in his experience, those who sought the intervention of party leadership were motivated by their own particular agendas. And that was not the sort of leadership he intended to provide.

Dean offered to seat them, but the delegation can not be done by him. It will be done by both candidates or the credentials committee.

[Auntie Bush]

76. Got a link for the crap you are spewing?

I thought not! Don't bother sending me to the unproven gossip link of someone who said someone said blah, blah, blah. That proves nothing!

"I now believe, she worked with her campaign to make the election trend toward her....and to hurt Dean as chairman."

[madfloridian]

79. "I now believe"....my opinion. I am sick and tired of this rule changing

in order to win.

It hit me hard this week, as I truly realized they were taking it to the convention to split the party.

So go ahead and be mad at me....everyone else is.

I think Hillary is doing the right thing....it is showing her goal...to win even if it splits the party.

[Auntie Bush]

80. Seems to me I remember it was Obama who deliberately split the party.

He did it for his own personal gain...to hell with the party...as long as he got what he wanted to enhance his ego. Why couldn't he have waited for Hillary to fill two terms for the democrats and then Obama serve two turns? Why? Because he thought more about his own personal ambitions...not the party!

[madfloridian]

81. OMG....you had the guts to say it. You said IT IS NOT HIS TURN

I have been waiting to have someone verify that she feels this is her time.

You just did.

Yes, it just may be his turn.

[Auntie Bush]

86. Don't put words in my mouth like you all put in Hillary's mouth.

((((((((((I DID NOT SAY THAT! GO BACK AN READ MY POST!)))))))

I SAID THE PARTY WAS NOT DIVIDED BEFORE OBAMA STEPPED INTO THE RING. HE WAS THE ONE WHO DIVIDED OUR PARTY...NOT CLINTON! SO DON'T SAY/BLAME CLINTON FOR DIVIDING THE PARTY. PLACE THE BLAME WHERE IT REALLY BELONGS.

YES, I'M SHOUTING! Stop making me angry!

How does that translate into it's her turn. Go find somewhere else to get you wishes fulfilled.

[madfloridian]

87. Your words.....

"He did it for his own personal gain...to hell with the party...as long as he got what he wanted to enhance his ego. Why couldn't he have waited for Hillary to fill two terms for the democrats and then Obama serve two turns? Why? Because he thought more about his own personal ambitions...not the party!"

She is not entitled. That is the problem. She will disrupt the party proving it is her turn.

[Auntie Bush]

92. And he disrupted the party unity by jumping in and risking splitting the party and

and losing the GE. Why? For his own personal gain. No Rethug would have done that to another republican. Why? Because they feel it's more important to win the election than personal gain. That's why we keep losing the election..except for a Clinton. Hee! Hee!

What I'm trying to get across is...stop blaming Hillary for splitting the party...it is not her fault...it's Obama's! I didn't say he had no right to run. I said he was running for his own personal gain...so stop saying Hillary is selfish for for running! He's just as selfish! That's my point!

[madfloridian]

94. So 2004 really was just a placeholder election for her.

I am sorry you are so angry at me, but no one is ever entitled to the presidency because of age or seniority or rank.

I am just surprised you had the courage to say it out loud.

I'm done.

[Auntie Bush]

102. Who said she was? I certain didn't.

"but no one is ever entitled to the presidency because of age or seniority or rank." Again...for the last time...I didn't say that or mean that and I think you know that! I SAID, Hillary isn't the one who split the party!
People around here keep saying she should get out because she is splitting the party. I say Obama was the first one to split the party. Weren't all the blacks solidly behind Clinton before Obama entered the race. He's responsible for splitting the party! How can you deny that?

By the way I'm not angry with you personally. I'm angry with what you say and twisting my words...just like Obama's people. I'm angry with all the Hillary hate I see around here. How long do you expect us to tolerate what is said here and expect me to vote for that man when you treat my candidate like SHIT!!??

[madfloridian]

105. I had no choice for nominee until she pushed FL delegates. Your words...

"He did it for his own personal gain...to hell with the party...as long as he got what he wanted to enhance his ego. Why couldn't he have waited for Hillary to fill two terms for the democrats and then Obama serve two turns? Why? Because he thought more about his own personal ambitions...not the party!"

I had no real choice, I had nothing against Hillary. Now I do. I am furious she is trying to split the party.

She is not entitled.

[Auntie Bush]

111. Too bad you are not a mind reader.

You would have known what I meant. lol

I was TRYING to say that if he hadn't run...we Democrats would have a sure winner for the next 8 years...then he could have been a sure winner for the next 8 years. We could have been guaranteed Democratic control for at least the next 16 plus years. Now...because he entered and split the party...I don't know if we will even win this election! I don't think that was very smart politics or good judgment. He must have anticipated it would split the party along a racial divide. That means he was selfishly thinking of himself and not what was best for the party or the country.

That is what Obama supporters accuse Hillary of doing and that's what is so irritating. Hillary is hatefully being accused of doing just what Obama did. It's OK for Obama...but not for Clinton.

Now do you understand what I was trying to say?

[catgirl]

120. I can't believe you just said that!!

Bottom line: Hillary is LOSING and can't WIN, yet stays in and tries to
steal votes that were cast for Obama. Who's trying to split the party?
The fair one, or the desperate one?

[madfloridian]

85. You said Obama split the party by running before his time.

That is unbelievable.

[Political Heretic]

118. *cough* I, for one, am not mad at you.

:)

[catgirl]

119. It's all over the news

[rodeodance]

68. I was not addressing you.

[jenmito]

70. This is a public messsage board. Your reply shows you have no excuse for her.

[tabasco]

101. The clip they can't explain.

"It will be over by February 5th."

But she CARES so much about all the states having their votes counted.

[madfloridian]

108. I don't have the video, but here is the quote.....

SENATOR HILLARY CLINTON: A much less compressed environment. So from my perspective, you get up every day and you get out there and you make your case and you reach as many people as possible. That's what I intend to do, so I'm in it for the long run. It's not a very long run. It'll be over by February 5th.”

http://baltimorechronicle.com/2008/010308Burns.shtml

[tabasco]

110. Jenmito provided the clip in the post above.

It includes clips of Hillary proclaiming her heart-felt desire to have all the votes counted and all the states matter, and ends with her saying "it will be over on February 5th."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_eBIpEuO4U

[madfloridian]

116. Thanks so much. Keeping that handy.

:hi:

[bluestateguy]

2. All right let's seat Michigan and Florida.

Seat each delegation with 1/3 Clinton delegates, 1/3 Obama delegates and the rest will be uncommitted--whose votes will be up for grabs.

[madfloridian]

3. Dean just said seat them....now she demands they be counted.

He doesn't have that power right now at all.

She is making it about her, and her stooges named MI and FL are by her side.

[Florida22ndDistrict]

re: Dean just said seat them....

He's saying that we will be seating but will have no influence on picking the candidate. While this does provide semi representation as in the ability to have a say on the platform we will run on, it still tosses out our vote. I'm not a Clinton supporter, but I appreciate her using her stature to shine light on the situation even if she is only doing it for political gain.

[madfloridian]

10. If she pursues this, she will lose.

Trust me.

I despise her now, and I never did before.

I believe FL and MI worked with her to carry this all the way to the convention.

There, I said it.

[Florida22ndDistrict]

15. re: If she pursues this, she will lose.

I don't care if she loses. She was my last choice, I did not vote for her on January 29, 2008 (I did vote on the Democratic presidential preference primary ballot). Funny thing is I started the season a big Obama supporter, but his lack of substance on policy bothers me. At this point I despise him due to his stance on my state's vote. My first issue is always my vote, anyone who betrays that trust has me as an enemy. I can be quite vengeful at times too. I'm quite soured on Dean as well at the moment and I was one of the few on his DFA site early in his campaign. I went around passing out flyer's for him down here. I voted for him even after his campaign had imploded and convinced quite a few people to vote for him. As I have said, my vote come first. When that is at stake, nothing else matters.

[madfloridian]

19. Oh my, you hate both Dean and Obama. Gotcha.

They are following the rules. Hillary has done a good snow job on you.

Oh, and there were more than "just a few" on DFA. Sorry, to burst your bubble.

This "my vote won't count" crap is getting old very quickly.

[Florida22ndDistrict]

24. re: Oh my, you hate both Dean and Obama. Gotcha.

No I don't hate them. Hate is something I reserve for people like Hitler. I am angry with them over this situation and it's not because of Clinton. Like I said Clinton was my last choice, and as such she receives very little of my attention.

The DFA movement started out very small and grew very large. I'm just stating I was around very early in that campaign (before it was really labeled as a campaign) for him and stuck with him until the end. He was up on my list of favored democrats until this fiasco. I'm very stubborn when it comes to my vote. As I have stated, when it is in limbo nothing else matters.

I don't respect your position on this issue, but I respect your right to freedom of speech and your effort in standing up for what you believe in. I'm pretty sure you and I will always disagree on this issue, because your stance just doesn't jive with my personal principles. On the spectrum of beliefs I assume I swing more towards liberty then authoritarian order then you, and we are all entitled to our beliefs.

[GarbagemanLB]

27. Why aren't you angered with your own legislators, who voted to move up the primary date? Isn't it

their fault?

[madfloridian]

33. Push the red button that says "Journal updated"

I have been pursuing them strongly for months.

[Florida22ndDistrict]

37. re: Why aren't you angered with your own legislators

There is a lot of blame to go around. I have expressed discontent with my representatives who happen to be republicans. I have expressed discontent with my governor who signed the bill into law and threatened to veto the bill without the date move. I have expressed discontent with state democrats from all states for agreeing to rules which violate the principles of the charter of the democratic party of the united states and as such disenfranchise party members. I have expressed discontent with the DNC for agreeing to the same rules for the same reasons. I have expressed discontent for Howard Dean for being undiplomatic leading up to the event. I have expressed discontent with the DNC for bluntly over punishing our states, enforcing the rules unevenly, and in general allowing such a mess to occur. I have expressed discontent with the current leading candidates for not making an issue out of this and speaking up for us (Clinton is now doing this, even if only for political gain. I appreciate the action, even if the motives are shady).

[JVS]

26. re: you might be new here, but we can tell what post you're responding to, so the "re:" thing is...

not necessary.

[Florida22ndDistrict]

40. I know its not necessary, but its how I like to do things here. It doesn't bother you that much does

[JVS]

41. Kind of does bug me. Most people start with the beginning of their response...

which is handy for people with limited download speed in following the gist of a conversation in order to tell if they want to bother click on the posts to read them in their entirety.

[Changenow]

96. It is only about her

she doesn't give a danm about the voters' rights, she says so almost daily.

[Florida22ndDistrict]

8. RE: All right let's seat Michigan and Florida.

1)That would be the same as setting us as 50/50.

2)Florida numbers had Clinton 50%, Edwards 14%, and Obama 33%. We had all 8 names on the ballot and Edwards was still active at the time.

3)Michigan numbers had Clinton 50% and Uncommitted 40%. If you look at the rest of the math and exit polls Edwards was around 15% and Obama was around 23%. The uncommitted should be seated as they were cast. Let them go to the convention uncommitted to Hillary, meaning the pledged delegates for uncommitted don't vote on the first ballot, but represent their constituents how they see best on all following ballots when not settle in the first round.

[madfloridian]

12. Florida had no delegates. It was not a legal primary. She is using them as a tool.

[Florida22ndDistrict]

22. re: Florida had no delegates. It was not a legal primary. She is using them as a tool.

It was a perfectly legal primary as far as election law is concerned. The point is question is that it violated party rules which called for the suspension of supper delegates from the state and half of our pledged delegates at the convention along with those of Iowa, Michigan, New Hampshire, and South Carolina. Nonetheless, the primary was still legal as can be. As a side note the credentials committee rules violate the principles and the spirit of the Charter of Democratic Party of the United States so in essence are invalidated to begin with. The charter is basically our party constitution and therefor trumps the committee rules. Too bad we don't have a party supreme court to settle it.

[madfloridian]

23. Ah, new tactic. Say the credentials committee is not legal. Can't believe you said this.

"As a side note the credentials committee rules violate the principles and the spirit of the Charter of Democratic Party of the United States so in essence are invalidated to begin with. The charter is basically our party constitution and therefor trumps the committee rules. Too bad we don't have a party supreme court to settle it."


Gee I had not heard that one before.

What's next in the Hillary's bag of tricks??????

[Florida22ndDistrict]

32. re: Ah, new tactic.

Like I said Clinton was my last choice. I didn't vote for her. I do not have an account at her website. I have no communications with her or her campaign. This has nothing to do with Clinton for me. I do not have a campaign bias like you. I believe in founding documents like the constitution of the United States of America and when it comes to our party our constitution is the Charter of the Democratic Party of the United States.

[madfloridian]

34. So you don't think the rules are legal?

Too bad.

[Florida22ndDistrict]

48. re: So you don't think the rules are legal?

Well there is a difference between federal/state election law and rules of a private organization. While rules could be considered contractual, people who do not sign such a contract can not be subject to it. So I would say, no the rules are not legal (If considered a contractual agreement) being that they affect people that had no review of such a contract and did not sign such a document. The party is well within the law to handle their own issues and make their own rules however they damn well please, but that does not make a violation of a rule an infraction on law. The election was perfectly legal. It is also perfectly legal for a private organization to ignore an election if they are dumb enough to do so.

[DJ13]

4. The more shrill and desperate she sounds about this.......

........the closer we are to eliminating her as a candidate.

She doesnt have the authority to do more than whine about Florida and Michigan, and when it finally is resolved as a split between her and Obama in delegates her options in trying to win the nomination go to near zero.

[BzaDem]

5. This angers you and people like you on this board -- not the general public.

There are a few people who care more about the DNC, the rules, and punishing (admittedly incompetent) state leaders, than about enfranchising millions of people. Most of them are on this board. (Though they ignore the fact that NH violated the rules when they moved their primary up yet again, and the DNC waived all penalties, while simultaneously raising the default 1/2 delegate penalty on FL to a 100% delegate penalty.)

But as much as you are angry about this, most people really don't care about the DNC or its rules committee. Advocating for the right to vote sounds a lot more reasonable to most people than advocating for the strict adherence to procedural DNC rules that aren't applied equally to all states.

[madfloridian]

9. It is angering those in the other 48.

Oopsy, I forgot, only FL and MI count.

[rodeodance]

36. You have evidence of this claim? If so, produce it.

........It is angering those in the other 48.
Posted by madfloridian


Oopsy, I forgot, only FL and MI count.

[spoony]

112. How absurdly ironic that you say that

given your preference for the status quo, where 48 states are less important than Iowa and New Hampshire.

I mean really. When will you quit whinging? You won. Our votes don't matter. What else do you want? My God. You get what you want then still grouse about it endlessly.

[madfloridian]

14. Hillary is using FL and MI as tools in her campaign.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1927

[crankychatter]

17. Departmental Policy: We do NOT negotiate with Terrorists

Seat this Stalinesque FAKE Delegate selection or we'll destroy the Party.

fucking register republican, and end your Charade

terrorists

[spoony]

114. Bush would be so proud of you.

Calling your political enemies terrorists. That's so darn cute.

[JVS]

29. The only person I've heard complain about NH and Iowa in real life was a Ron Paul crank

[stillcool]

82. What was is about New Hampshire?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7106756.stm
New Hampshire sets primary date
New Hampshire has set 8 January 2008 as the date for its US presidential primary, ending months of speculation.
----------
Iowa will hold its nominating caucus - a different kind of selection procedure - on 3 January, kicking off the season.


That calendar meant New Hampshire, which by state law has to hold its primary election at least a week before any other, could hold its vote no later than 8 January - the earliest date ever.
-----------------------------
But both Michigan and Florida's dates break Democratic National Committee (DNC) rules, which say only four states are allowed to hold contests before 5 February.
Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/americas/7106756.stm
Published: 2007/11/22 00:29:46 GMT
© BBC MMVIII

Kucinich Files Affidavit To Remove Name From Michigan's Primary Shortly Before Deadline

October 10, 2007 8:19 a.m. EST
Ayinde O. Chase - AHN Staff
http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/7008781843
Dover, NH (AHN) - The Kucinich for President campaign Tuesday afternoon officially requested that Kucinich's name be withdrawn from the Michigan Democratic primary ballot. The affidavit came by way of to the Michigan Secretary of State's office.

The Ohio Congressman and Democratic Presidential candidates National Campaign manager Mike Klein said in the statement, "We signed a public pledge recently, promising to stand with New Hampshire, Nevada, South Carolina, and the DNC-approved 'early window', and the action we are taking today protects New Hampshire's first-in-the-nation primary status, and Nevada's early caucus."

The statement continued: "We support the grassroots nature of the New Hampshire, small-state primary, and we support the diversity efforts that Chairman Dean and the DNC instituted last year, when they added Nevada and South Carolina to the window in January 2008. We are obviously committed to New Hampshire's historic role." Klein who actually recently moved to Dover said, "We will continue to adhere to the DNC-approved primary schedule."

Governor Granholm and other Michigan Democratic leaders have openly criticized the decision by several presidential candidates to keep their names off the state primary ballot.

The Michigan lawmakers are taken back by Barack Obama, Joe Biden, John Edwards and Bill Richardson's decision to withdraw their names from the January 15th ballot.

The only ones who remain on Michigan's primary ballot are Hillary Clinton, Mike Gravel and Chris Todd.
-----------------------------
The DNC has threatened to punish states that break tradition and the rules by challenging Iowa and New Hampshire as first to pic. The committee has threatened to unseat the delegates of states that go ahead defy the primary rules set by the party

[Moochy]

103. Ah the low information voter!

Glad you were able to get on the internets.

[HockeyMom]

6. Throw out MY vote

I am so sick of all this. I hate Hillary AND I hate this damned state.

[madfloridian]

11. I agree.

I despise her face, her eyes, her voice. She has done this to herself.

I never felt that way at the start.

[rodeodance]

46. "I despise her face, her eyes, her voice"

[Obamanaut]

55. Well said. So do I. nt

[QC]

90. Madfloridian is mad indeed! n/t

[Faygo Kid]

20. Whew. With a name like HockeyMom, I thought you meant Michigan.

I love Michigan. Lived in Florida for a year and couldn't stand it. Looking forward to going back to Michigan when I retire in a few years (Traverse City area). Thought fer sure that you were speaking of Michigan with that handle, until I checked your profile.

Apologies and salutations.

[HockeyMom]

42. I am a New Yorker

and always will be, no matter where I live.

[Faygo Kid]

44. Michigander always. And go Tigers.

Even though they suck so far this year.

[krawhitham]

7. "It's clear, this election they're having is not going to count for anything,"

[OzarkDem]

16. It shouldn't. Its time to resolve this mess

and the Dem party shouldn't have double standards regarding states that break the rules.

[Faygo Kid]

18. Former and future Michigander sickened by her desperate tactic.

She had no opposition on the ballot, other than "undecided." Can the Edwards supporters really back her in demanding the delegates (I was one then)?

She's desperate. This is ugly and disgusting. Split the delegates 50-50, and seat the delegation. There is no other way.

[madfloridian]

21. Hillary just made up a new reason for Fl and MI to count.

http://www.kget.com/political/story.aspx?content_id=b1d42069-1912-4124-ad7c-e5d8e74d3779

"HILLSBORO, Oregon (AP) - Hillary Rodham Clinton is giving another reason why the disputed primaries in Michigan and Florida should be counted in the Democratic presidential race.

She says the vote totals have been officially recognized in each state.

At a rally in Oregon, Clinton said the popular vote in Florida and Michigan has already been counted.

She says it was determined by election results, it was certified by election officials in each state, and it has been officially tallied by the secretary of state in each state."

The vote tallies have been recognized....what a bullshit argument.

Her desperation is getting an odor.

[crankychatter]

28. Can Dean make a crisp statement regarding this crap?

To counter media spin... without getting labelled pro-Obama?

It just seems like the American people, given the facts... would laugh Clinton out of the court of public opinion.

[madfloridian]

62. He did, and I just posted it below.

"After Dean's initial remarks, Bernard Bergreen, a Hillary bundler, rose and said that Dean's address left out any discussion of Michigan and Florida, which was the critical bone of contention between the two campaigns.

Dean said that in his view, the question could be settled only after the primaries had finished in June, and after the superdelegates had made their decision.

At that point Clinton campaign finance chair Hassan Nemazee spoke up. He said Dean's response sounded to him as if the DNC chairman were "essentially trying to kick the can down the road" and that the chairman was not exhibiting the type of leadership one would expect. Nemazee said that since the campaigns obviously could not reach a solution on their own before June, Dean's argument amounted to passing the buck.

Dean then responded, heatedly, that in his experience, those who sought the intervention of party leadership were motivated by their own particular agendas. And that was not the sort of leadership he intended to provide.

http://www.observer.com/2008/more-clinton-donors-versus-dean

[Erin Elizabeth]

65. Getting an odor?

I've been smelling that stink all the way here in Texas for weeks now. Peeeeyou!

[C_U_L8R]

25. "some say.."

Is that the best she can do.. some limp straw man attack?
It is a total bullshit argument and the fact that she has to hinge it on
vapor... a straw dog... illustrates just how bogus it is. Or so some say.
When will Dean throw the hammer down of this Clintonian bullshit?

[madrchsod]

30. she keeps digging herself deeper in the well

there are no rules that she is not willing to break to gain power. god help us if she becomes the president.

[Levgreee]

31. Isn't it funny how she didn't care or protest before a while after they voted?

The hypocrisy and use of the right to vote for political conniving is so transparent, I don't know how anyone can look at Hillary more favorably rather than less favorably after this

[madfloridian]

35. Dean's stance...

Clinton fundraisers attackeed him during a joint meeting with the Obama campaign and its financial backers.

It was a cheap shot.

http://www.observer.com/2008/more-clinton-donors-versus-dean

After Dean's initial remarks, Bernard Bergreen, a Hillary bundler, rose and said that Dean's address left out any discussion of Michigan and Florida, which was the critical bone of contention between the two campaigns.

Dean said that in his view, the question could be settled only after the primaries had finished in June, and after the superdelegates had made their decision.

At that point Clinton campaign finance chair Hassan Nemazee spoke up. He said Dean's response sounded to him as if the DNC chairman were "essentially trying to kick the can down the road" and that the chairman was not exhibiting the type of leadership one would expect. Nemazee said that since the campaigns obviously could not reach a solution on their own before June, Dean's argument amounted to passing the buck.

Dean then responded, heatedly, that in his experience, those who sought the intervention of party leadership were motivated by their own particular agendas. And that was not the sort of leadership he intended to provide.

Dean offered to seat them, but the delegation can not be done by him. It will be done by both candidates or the credentials committee.

[Name removed]

39. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[rodeodance]

43. Calling a Democratic Pres. Candidate a whore!!! Have you no shame!

One more proof that Randi is right..Hillary is a fking whore
Posted by dems08

[Name removed]

45. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[judaspriestess]

47. if Hillary is what you claim she is of course saying this on a computer

over an internet site,(so tough of you) what does that make you?

a loser? an asshole? bottomfeeder? all three?


on edit: with your bad lil 17 post self, tough guy.

If you hate women move to Saudi Arabia ok?

[golddigger]

49. Well, it looks like your freedom of speech was just deleted. Welcome to D.U.N.K.!

:evilgrin:

[rodeodance]

52. :-)

[mtnsnake]

54. Looks like you just got relocated yourself, ya mutant troll, to Tombstone Park

Ouch!

[rodeodance]

56. did it?? yahooooooooo!! Hope this is a lesson for all.

[golddigger]

58. Funny, because I'm eating pizza while this jerk was posting.

:evilgrin:

[Moochy]

104. skin still coming off?

How many locked threads you start today?

[MethuenProgressive]

107. It's what the DU Obama Supporters do best: Sexist Hatred.

Shame on them all for supporting, condoning, and applauding it.
I'm glad real Obama Supporters are nothing like DUbamas.

[AJH032]

50. It angers you?

That one of our candidates is trying to get votes to count should be a source of enthusiasm for democracy.

[golddigger]

53. I have a feeling she wouldn't be so ANGRY if Obama won those states.

[rodeodance]

60. course not.

[madfloridian]

57. Bull hockey

Click the red button to read how I feel.

[GarbagemanLB]

59. Apparently she doesn't feel the same about pledged delegate votes. So much for giving a shit about

the 'voice of the people'. Fuck her.

[mtnsnake]

63. "Fuck her"

GarbagemanLB (1000+ posts) Sat Apr-05-08 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #50
59. Apparently she doesn't feel the same about pledged delegate votes. So much for giving a shit about
the 'voice of the people'. Fuck her.

[GarbagemanLB]

72. Oh, I'm sorry. I 'misspoke', like your gal Hillary. She is a blatant hypocrite. She talks about

caring so much about hearing everyone's voices, yet behind closed doors tries to get delegates that the PEOPLE elected to switch their side.

[Moochy]

109. CAUGHT HIM!!!

RED HANDED EVEN!!! :eyes:

[Florida22ndDistrict]

66. re: Apparently she doesn't feel the same about pledged delegate votes.

The voice of the people is represented by delegates that go to the convention to represent their constituency not unlike a congressman. Super delegates are also votes on the floor, many of which have constituency they represent through their held office. Others are basically party royalty and therefor have no accountability. Being that both candidates have failed to win through the primary and caucus process we will be represented at the convention as it is suppose to happen, unless Dean bullies supers in a smoke filled room to endorse one of the two candidates. The only ones without representation on the floor will be Florida and Michigan as it stands. Super delegates voting, does not take away the voice of the people. As the system is set up, the voice is represented through pledged delegates.

[GarbagemanLB]

73. You obviously don't understand we are talking about PLEDGED DELEGATES, not SUPER delegates.

[Florida22ndDistrict]

117. re: You obviously don't understand we are talking about

I understand perfectly well what you are conveying. The fact is you don't except the system and expect super delegates to vote with your candidate rather then them making up their own mind as the system was intended. Not even pledged delegates are required to vote for the candidate they are pledged to. The honor code expects them to, and they can be removed by their candidate if their candidate thinks they are not loyal, but they are not legally bound to do so. Under the system a pledged delegate like a super delegate acts like congressmen. Congressmen do not always vote the way you want them to, but you are represented by them. The primary/caucus process is not a direct direct democracy. If you understand that you are represented by delegates both pledged and super, then you should understand that they represent their constituencies and have the ability as well as the responsibility to vote their conscience and do what they think is in the best interest of they peoples they represent. You must either not understand the system or are a big fan or rubber stamp congresses.

[rodeodance]

67. "Fuck her." ????

[boston bean]

64. Oh the humanity, who dares to count the votes? What a friggin outrage! nt

[GarbagemanLB]

75. Meanwhile, Hillary tries to get pledged delegates to switch their support...so much for democracy!

[rodeodance]

89. Lovely---yes, isn't democracy cool.

[Name removed]

69. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[GarbagemanLB]

77. if by democracy you mean getting pledged delegates to switch their vote...yes, it angers me.

[Auntie Bush]

71. Obamites won't let anything stand in the way of Obama getting elected...

even if it means lying about Hillary. Even if it means disenfranchising a million plus Floridians! Tough sh** If it means Obama gets more votes...thats the important thing to him and his supporters. Anything goes! Lying, conniving and trumped up charges such as saying the Clintons are racist! What an outrage! What a lie! I'm damn angry at most Obamites on this board. Many here make me sick at their bias trumped up outrage. Well Clinton supporters can express outrage here too. Tough sh**...if you don't like it! I don't even have my flame suit on because I'm not going to take your sh**>

[stillcool]

83. Lies, lies, I tell you!

December 1, 2007, 11:42 am
Democrats Strip Michigan of Delegates

By The New York Times

In a widely expected move, the Democratic National Committee voted this morning to strip Michigan of all its 156 delegates to the national nominating convention next year. The state is breaking the party’s rules by holding its primary on Jan. 15. Only Iowa, New Hampshire, South Carolina and Nevada are allowed to hold contests prior to Feb. 5.

The party imposed a similar penalty on Florida in August for scheduling a Jan. 29 primary.

The Democratic candidates have already pledged not to campaign in the state, and Senators Barack Obama and Joseph R. Biden Jr., as well as John Edwards and Gov. Bill Richardson, asked to have their names removed from the state ballot.
http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/12/01/democrats-strip-michigan-delegates/

Lawmakers in US state Michigan approve moving presidential primary to January despite rules
The Associated Press
Published: August 30, 2007

LANSING, Michigan: Michigan lawmakers have approved moving the state's U.S. presidential nomination contests to January, three weeks earlier than party rules allow, as states continue to challenge the traditional primary election calendar to gain influence in the race.

Democratic Gov. Jennifer Granholm is expected to sign the bill passed Thursday that would move the contest to Jan. 15, but approval of the switch is far from certain. A disagreement among state Democratic leaders over whether to hold a traditional ballot vote or a more restricted caucus is complicating final action.

If the date moves up, Michigan Democrats risk losing all their national convention delegates, while Republicans risk losing half.
------------------------------------
Rules in both parties say states cannot hold their 2008 primary contests before Feb. 5, except for a few hand-picked states that hold elections in January.
--------------------------------
"We understand that we're violating the rules, but it wasn't by choice," Michigan Republican Chairman Saul Anuzis said, noting that state Democrats first proposed moving the date to Jan. 15. "We're going to ask for forgiveness and we think ... we will get forgiveness."
----------------------------------
Even states that do not have favored status are trying to jump toward the front of the line. Florida Democrats decided to move their state's primary to Jan. 29. The national party has said it will strip Florida of its presidential convention delegates unless it decides within the next few weeks to move the vote to a later date.
http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/08/31/america/NA-POL-US-Primary-Scramble.php?WT.mc_id=rssap_america

Democrats vow to skip defiant states
Six candidates agree not to campaign in those that break with the party's calendar. Florida and Michigan, this includes you.
By Mark Z. Barabak, Los Angeles Times Staff Writer
September 2, 2007
The muddled 2008 presidential nomination calendar gained some clarity Saturday -- at least on the Democratic side -- as the party's major candidates agreed not to campaign in any state that defies party rules by voting earlier than allowed.

Their collective action was a blow to Florida and Michigan, two states likely to be important in the general election, which sought to enhance their clout in the nominating process as well.

Front-runner Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton of New York followed Sen. Barack Obama of Illinois and former Sen. John Edwards of North Carolina in pledging to abide by the calendar set by the Democratic National Committee last summer. The rules allow four states -- Iowa, Nevada, New Hampshire and South Carolina -- to vote in January.

The four "need to be first because in these states ideas count, not just money," Edwards said in a written statement. "This tried-and-true nominating system is the only way for voters to judge the field based on the quality of the candidate, not the depth of their war chest."

Hours later, after Obama took the pledge, Clinton's campaign chief issued a statement citing the four states' "unique and special role in the nominating process" and said that the New York senator, too, would "adhere to the DNC-approved calendar."

Three candidates running farther back in the pack -- New Mexico Gov. Bill Richardson and Sens. Christopher J. Dodd of Connecticut and Joseph R. Biden Jr. of Delaware -- said Friday they would honor the pledge, shortly after the challenge was issued in a letter co-signed by Democratic leaders in the four early states.
--
Florida, the state that proved pivotal in the 2000 presidential election, is again a source of much upheaval. Ignoring the rule that put January off-limits, legislators moved the state's primary up to Jan. 29, pushing Florida past California and other big states voting Feb. 5.

Leaders of the national party responded last month by giving Florida 30 days to reconsider, or have its delegates barred from the August convention in Denver.

"The party had to send a strong message to Florida and the other states," said Donna Brazile, a veteran campaign strategist and member of the Democratic National Committee, the party's governing body. "We have a system that is totally out of control."

Despite that warning, Michigan lawmakers moved last week to jump the queue, voting to advance the state's primary to Jan. 15.

Florida Dems defy Dean on primary date
By Sam Youngman
Posted: 06/12/07 07:58 PM
Howard Dean, chairman of the Democratic National Committee (DNC), is trapped in a high-stakes game of chicken with party leaders in Florida.

They warned him yesterday not to “disenfranchise” state voters and risk being blamed for a debacle on the scale of the 2000 recount.

The warning comes amid alarm over a decision Sunday by state Democratic leaders to embrace Jan. 29 as the primary date.
They are defying DNC headquarters and daring it to follow through on its threat to disqualify electors selected in the primary and punish candidates who campaign there.

But the DNC is not backing down. The committee bought time with a statement late yesterday saying, “The DNC will enforce the rules as passed by its 447 members in Aug. 2006. Until the Florida State Democratic Party formally submits its plan and we’ve had the opportunity to review that submission, we will not speculate further.”

Dean does not, in any case, have the power to waive party rules, a DNC spokeswoman said. The entire committee would have to vote again to do that.
------------------

Carol Fowler, chairwoman of the South Carolina Democratic Party, said she won’t move that state’s primary, scheduled for Feb. 2, unless the national committee allows her.

“I’m going to do what the DNC tells me to,” Fowler said. “I’m not willing to violate the rules. The penalties are too stiff.”


http://thehill.com/leading-the-news/florida-dems-defy-dean-on-primary-date-2007-06-12.html

Posted: August 27, 2007, 6:05 PM ET
DNC Moves to Stop Primary Frontloading
The Democratic National Committee moved over the weekend to penalize Florida for moving up its primary date to Jan. 29 -- a violation of DNC rules that prohibit states from holding nominating polls before Feb. 5.
The committee said the Sunshine State would be stripped of its delegation at the party's National Convention in 2008 if the state does not reschedule its primary in the next 30 days.

As the nation's fourth-most-populous state, Florida has 210 delegates and has played a major role in recent presidential elections. Florida's decision to advance its primary follows the increasing trend of states pushing up their contests in order to gain relevance in the election.

"Rules are rules. California abided by them, and Florida should, as well. To ignore them would open the door to chaos," said Garry Shays, a DNC member from California. California -- with its 441 delegates -- moved its primary to Feb. 5, along with more than a dozen other states.
-----------------------------------------

The DNC's move may have repercussions beyond Florida as other state legislatures consider disregarding the Feb. 5 cutoff. Last week, Michigan's state Senate voted to hold its primary on Jan. 15. The state's House is expected to approve the earlier date as well.

The DNC gave Florida the option of holding a Jan. 29 contest but with nonbinding results, and the delegates would be awarded at a later official date.

Florida Democratic Committee Chairwoman Karen Thurman said this option would be expensive -- as much as $8 million -- and potentially undoable. Another option would be to challenge the ruling in court.

"We do represent, standing here, a lot of Democrats in the state of Florida -- over 4 million," Thurman said, according to the New York Times. "This is emotional for Florida. And it should be."
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/updates/politics/july-dec07/florida_08-27.html

Published: Monday, September 24, 2007
Florida defies Dems, moves up primary
Associated Press

PEMBROKE PINES, Fla. — The Florida Democratic Party is sticking to its primary date — and it printed bumper stickers to prove it.

State party leaders formally announced Sunday their plans to move ahead with a Jan. 29 primary, despite the national leadership's threatened sanctions.

The Democratic National Committee has said it will strip the Sunshine State of its 210 nominating convention delegates if it doesn't abide by the party-set calendar, which forbids most states from holding primary contests before Feb. 5. The exceptions are Iowa on Jan. 14, Nevada on Jan. 19, New Hampshire on Jan. 22 and South Carolina on Jan. 29.
http://www.heraldnet.com/article/20070924/NEWS02/709240045/-1/

Michigan defies parties, moves up primary date
JAN. 15 DECISION COULD SET OFF STAMPEDE OF STATES
By Stephen Ohlemacher
Associated Press
Article Launched: 09/05/2007 01:34:57 AM PDT

WASHINGTON - Michigan officially crashed the early primary party Tuesday, setting up showdowns with both political parties and likely pushing the presidential nomination calendar closer to 2007.

Gov. Jennifer Granholm signed a bill moving both of Michigan's presidential primaries to Jan. 15. Michigan's move threatens to set off a chain reaction that could force Iowa and New Hampshire to reschedule their contests even earlier than anticipated, perhaps in the first week in January 2008 or even December 2007.
-------------------------------------------
The national parties have tried to impose discipline on the rogue states. On the Republican side, states that schedule contests before Feb. 5 risk losing half their delegates to next summer's convention, though some are banking that whoever wins the GOP nomination will eventually restore the delegates.

Democrats have experienced similar problems, but party officials hoped they had stopped the mad dash to move up by threatening to strip Florida of all its convention delegates for scheduling a primary Jan. 29 and by persuading the major Democratic candidates to campaign only in the party-approved early states.

Michigan, in moving up its primary, faces a similar penalty from the Democratic National Committee.
-----------------------------------------------------

The decision by the major Democratic candidates to campaign only in approved early states renders voting in the rogue states essentially non-binding beauty contests.

But Former Michigan Gov. James Blanchard, co-chairman of Hillary Clinton's Michigan campaign, told the Associated Press on Tuesday that the pledge allows candidates' spouses to campaign in the state, allows the candidates to speak to groups of 200 or fewer and permits fundraising.
http://www.mercurynews.com/ci_6804685?source=rss

Editorial: Follow DNC rules on seating delegates
February 25, 2008
By Editorial Board

On September 1, the campaigns of Clinton and Senator Barack Obama (D-Ill.) issued press releases stating that they had signed pledges affirming the DNC’s decision to approve certain representative states and sanction others for moving their nominating contests earlier. But now that the race is close, Clinton — whose top advisor Harold Ickes voted as a member of the DNC to strip Florida and Michigan of their delegates — is pushing for the delegates to be seated.

Her argument is that not doing so disenfranchises the 1.7 million Florida Democrats who voted and that her pledge promised only that she wouldn’t campaign in the states, not that she wouldn’t try to seat the delegates. However, the results of the contests in Florida and Michigan are not necessarily representative of the voters’ preferences in those states. Given that most of the candidates removed their names from the Michigan ballot, and that many voters stayed home from the vote in Florida with the understanding that their contest would not affect the final delegate count, the delegate totals that the candidates accumulated in these states may not accurately reflect the will of the voters. Had there been no restrictions in Michigan and Florida, the turnout, and thus the results, may have been different.

The Four State Pledge all candidates signed on Aug. 28 stated, “Whereas, the DNC Rules and Bylaws Committee will strip states of 100% of their delegates and super delegates to the DNC National Convention if they violate the nomination calendar... Therefore, I ____________, Democratic Candidate for President, in honor and in accordance with DNC rules ...pledge I shall not campaign or participate in any election contest occurring in any state not already authorized by the DNC to take place in the DNC approved pre-window.” When the candidates pledged to campaign only in approved states, they were also agreeing to the terms listed above, which explicitly mentioned stripping noncompliant states of their entire delegation.

As it has become clear that the delegate race will be very close, politicians in the Democratic party are discussing the implications of the DNC pledge, and whether it would be wise to seat the delegates after all, rather than risk offending these important states that could be influential in the November election.

House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) recently said that the Florida and Michigan delegates should not be seated if they would decide the nomination. Other compromise proposals include holding new nominating contests in these states, but such contests would be expensive and cumbersome. The irony is that had Florida and Michigan not moved up their primaries, they would have voted in February and March, when they would have been even more important than in earlier months in determining the Democratic nominee — and would not have created an enormous controversy that has the potential to divide the party.
http://daily.stanford.edu/article/2008/2/25/editorialFollowDncRulesOnSeatingDelegates

Kucinich Files Affidavit To Remove Name From Michigan's Primary Shortly Before Deadline

October 10, 2007 8:19 a.m. EST
Ayinde O. Chase - AHN Staff
http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/7008781843
Dover, NH (AHN) - The Kucinich for President campaign Tuesday afternoon officially requested that Kucinich's name be withdrawn from the Michigan Democratic primary ballot. The affidavit came by way of to the Michigan Secretary of State's office.

The Ohio Congressman and Democratic Presidential candidates National Campaign manager Mike Klein said in the statement, "We signed a public pledge recently, promising to stand with New Hampshire, Nevada, South Carolina, and the DNC-approved 'early window', and the action we are taking today protects New Hampshire's first-in-the-nation primary status, and Nevada's early caucus."

The statement continued: "We support the grassroots nature of the New Hampshire, small-state primary, and we support the diversity efforts that Chairman Dean and the DNC instituted last year, when they added Nevada and South Carolina to the window in January 2008. We are obviously committed to New Hampshire's historic role." Klein who actually recently moved to Dover said, "We will continue to adhere to the DNC-approved primary schedule."

Governor Granholm and other Michigan Democratic leaders have openly criticized the decision by several presidential candidates to keep their names off the state primary ballot.

The Michigan lawmakers are taken back by Barack Obama, Joe Biden, John Edwards and Bill Richardson's decision to withdraw their names from the January 15th ballot.

The only ones who remain on Michigan's primary ballot are Hillary Clinton, Mike Gravel and Chris Todd.
-----------------------------
The DNC has threatened to punish states that break tradition and the rules by challenging Iowa and New Hampshire as first to pic. The committee has threatened to unseat the delegates of states that go ahead defy the primary rules set by the party

[madfloridian]

84. Facts don't matter. 48 states don't matter. Caucuses don't matter...

Delegates don't matter.

Only the electoral vote matters now.

Please adjust your thinking accordingly.

:crazy:

PS, thanks for the very complete post.

But it doesn't matter either. (just kidding)

[Changenow]

97. You are mistaken

the electoral votes don't' matter either.

Clinton victory matters, nothing else.

[madfloridian]

99. I fear you may be right.

I think it may be too late to save the party.

This could have been our year.

[Changenow]

100. It isn't our Party

As Hillary well knows.

[Major Hogwash]

74. Michigan said no to a re-do yesterday. Too bad for Hillary. They've already spoken.

And they didn't agree with Lil Miss Pissy Pants.

Damn, I wonder if she'll get so mad she'll throw her book bag across the room again.

LoL

[GarbagemanLB]

78. Lil Miss Pissy Pants? I am FAUXTRAGED!!!!!

[AZ Criminal JD]

88. 2000 DNC "Count every vote in Florida" 2008 DNC "Count no votes in Florida"

[QC]

91. Yep. Howard Dean = Katherine Harris with a pecker. n/t

[GarbagemanLB]

93. Ah yes, it is the DNC's fault that the FLORIDA LEGISLATURE moved up the primary and broke the rules

[Changenow]

98. H. Clinton: "Voters don't matter"-2008

Unless they support her.

[Oilwellian]

95. To those who support FL & MI breaking the rules

Change parties. You would fit in well with the party that has no respect for rules or laws.

[spoony]

113. Actually, I think the election fraud party would rather fit you lot.

You know, the one that "has no respect for" the voice of voters.

[MethuenProgressive]

106. Democracy angers you?

Why do you hate Democracy?

[Changenow]

115. Hilary said her plan is

to override the vote.

Will you consider that successful for democracy?

[conservdem]

121. Does your idea of Democracy have any rules that will be followed?