Delayed outrage, let's talk about MI and FL

[ProSense]

The Delayed Outrage For Florida and Michigan, and Hillaryis44(Update)

by Setrak
Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 05:36:31 AM PDT

The title makes my view on this pretty known. I am sick and I am tired of the Clinton campaign encouraging this ridiculous line of thinking, a line of thinking that urges people to selectively forget some things while remembering others. For instance, the Clinton campaign asks us to remember Florida and Michigan. The Clinton campaign asks us to remember their importance and how they "voted." The Clinton campaign also asks us to forget that Ickes fought to create this mess. The Clinton campaign also asks us to forget that Clinton herself signed a pledge that acknowledges the out-of-turn attempts of Florida and Michigan to shove their primaries forward. The Clinton campaign asks us to forget their previous silence, while Hillaryis44 asks their Freeper-lite users to spread the propaganda. You know, that we're a bunch of vote-suppressing brownshirts if we support Obama. Larry Coulter Johnson, Susan Huannity, Marsh Limbaugh, and their ditto heads.

Indeed, Clinton's only chances are to somehow make Florida and Michigan(where Obama/Edwards/Richardson/Biden weren't even on the ballot) count. Things are so bad in Hillaryland that to have any chance, they need the 50-or-so delegate bonus from Michigan. In Florida, they had a primary based entirely on name recognition. Many Clinton supporters continually remind us of how many people voted in the primary- as though each and every one of them came out to vote for the candidates, and not for special measures on the ballots.

Let's forget about that, though. What I want people to remember is the silence that came from the Clinton campaign for so long. In September, in November, in December. In early January, before IA/NH/NV/SC voted. These were the states that were allowed to vote before February 5th, the ones that have always had this right(with exception to NV, which is new this year to the special position). There was complete and utter silence until after Nevada voted. By this time, South Carolina was a lost cause. When results poured in from Michigan, it seemed like gold- a chance to get more delegates without any going to another candidate.

So, we ended up with this delayed outrage. We ended up with Clinton supporters running around blogging about how big bad Obama is the one disenfranchising the voters of Florida and Michigan. We ended up with Clinton supporters expressing their own delayed outrage, screaming and harking about how un-American it is. Crying about how those states must spend another few million conducting another state primary, saying this person or hat person should, acting like the voters of Michigan and Florida not only care but want to actually go out and vote again. Besides for Wright, they don't really have any talking points left. Indeed, Rezko was a favorite, but they got sick of hanging on so desperately to that dried-up vine. Wright too has proven fairly dried-up after only producing a few bad sound bytes after decades of work.

Florida and Michigan, however, still make for a decent talking point. They can continue to perpetuate that Obama is a sneak, a typical politician, an ambitious evil-whatever that only wins when his "thugs" take over caucus cites. Indeed, the Hillaryis44 crowd have infiltrated many liberal blogs. When I spoke previously of their being cancerous tumors in some sites, such as MyDD, I'm speaking about that group. The Hillaryis44 crowd, lead by some guy who used to work for Perot. The No Quarter crowd. The Taylor Marsh Limbaugh groupies. Pro-Clinton websites who focuses on being pro-actively anti-Obama, anti-Pelosi, anti-Brazile, anti-Kerry, anti-Kennedy, anti-Dean, anti-anyone-who-doesn't-take-Hillary's-cause. It's depressing, but it could be worse- imagine how depressing it must be to be amongst those Rezko Watchers. They have GOT to be disappointed.

Worst of all, though, is what Hillaryis44 represents- the acceptance of tactics that we should be above. The use of right-wing news sources by Clinton supporters are more likely than not being perpetuated by users of Hillaryis44. The ones that'll call us Obama supporters "brownshirts?" Hillaryis44 people. The ones that e-mail news outlets to protest something or beg for running a story- usually Hillaryis44 people, if you ever bother to read those horrendous comment sections. Don't be fooled by all the pink, Hillaryis44 represents the Free Republican of the Democratic Party. Unfortunately, I'm not clever enough to give a nickname to the Democratic-version of the Freeper.

With exception to some morbid hopes for Rezko and Wright, the Democratic Freepers seem to be out of everything except Florida and Michigan, and they are making their delayed outrage heard where ever they can. Bu the way, they really hate it when you tell them that it's delayed outrage. Indeed, this snippet from the Hillaryis44 blog sums up their message;

Obama’s worries are such that the only scenario he has for a "victory" is to disenfranchise millions of voters in Florida and Michigan. Any nomination that does not fully respect the voters and the votes of Florida and Michigan will not be legitimate.

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Hillary: Michigan "won't count for anything"

by JLFinch
Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 07:23:57 AM PDT

Make sure you bookmark this and send the link to any Clinton supporter who starts shedding those crocodile tears about disenfranchising voters in Michigan:

(Video)

Here is what Hillary said about the contest in Michigan on that youtube clip above:

"I personally did not think it made any difference whether my name was on the ballot. You know, It's clear this election they are having is not going to count for anything."

They're just words!

Words don't matter to Hillary - especially not her own word. Hillary is not to be trusted to keep her own word.

How much longer are Hillary and her supporters going to be allowed to spew this "disenfranchisement" crap?

This goes right along with Hillary's plan to sabotage Obama in the general (by souring Dems in Florida and Michigan) so that McCain wins, and Hillary can take another strike at him in 2012. I would certainly hope that she would be drummed out of the Democratic party well before then. She can run with Lieberman on the Asshole Party ticket.

Now, let's look at the scenarios with MI (Obama gets MI 55 uncommitted delegates) and FL included:

• The delegates needed to win the nomination would be 2,208.
  
  
• Obama gets a total of 122 delegates, Hillary gets a total of 178 delegates
  
  
• Current delegates totals for Obama 1,629 and for Hillary 1,486 (CNN numbers)
  
  
• Total delegates including MI and FL Obama 1,751 (+122) Hillary 1,664 (+178)

Reality check:

Based on the above scenario, Hillary would have to win the ten remaining contest by the following margins

• PA and WV by 20 pts.
  
• KY and PR by 30 pts.
  
• IN, OR, SD, NC and MT by 10 pts.

Calculator

Delegate data

[Sarah Ibarruri]

1. I'm in Florida and my opinion is that Hillary Clinton needs to stop now nt

[tabasco]

2. Hillary really CARES about all the votes and all the states! Video proof here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_eBIpEuO4U

[Swamp Rat]

3. k&r

[Atman]

4. But...but...but...Hillary talks millions of words every week...

Some of them are bound to be utter nonsense. She said so herself. It wasn't her actually saying that, they were just words coming out of her mouth. Probably just PTSD after being shot at in Bosnia.


.

[tabasco]

5. Yah, it's kind of hard to figure out which of the millions of words she really means

but we can count on Hillary to let us know if there's any questions!

[stellanoir]

6. It's a mess.

With all the dough being spent on this election and with all the dough being made off this election, I just wish they'd all pony up and do a do over.

There is no way either of those primary's votes should be counted as is.

It's nutz.

[crankychatter]

7. CONTEST: Nickname the Democratic-version of the "Freeper"

You're onto something...

would this be a rules violation?

I'm just a "nube"

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[crankychatter]

13. Disabled Veteran - Senior Citizen - Lifelong Dem

kma

the anonymity of the internet gives you courage where none exists in your 3-dimensional life

you got something to say I'll give you my goddamn address.

[kid a]

41. k

[Voice for Peace]

14. Creepers?

[TexasObserver]

9. The DNC should split the delegations 50-50, and strike their superdelegates.

Let the states have a delegation that is 50% Clinton and 50% Obama, but deny them their superdelegates, who are to blame in both states.

[TahitiNut]

28. Any "delegation" that does not come directly from the voters of Michigan is illegitimate.

As a Michigan resident and voter, I find it offensive that folks seem to think they can reach in and take "token delegates" to be window dressing at a Party convention. The abominable pretense of even calling them "delegates" is disgusting to me.

The "leading" candidates were happy to COLLECT campaign funds from Michigan, but used detestable rules to keep from SPENDING any campaign funds in the state with the nation's worst economy.
The "leading" candidates have not faced voters with the highest percentage of unemployed in the nation, yet would pretend to accept faux "delegates"? Bullshit.
The "leading" candidates have not faced voters with the highest rate of foreclosures in the nation, yet would pretend to accept faux "delegates"? Bullshit.

The primary was a FUBAR and there's not a damned thing that can be done to correct it that does not include (1) diligent campaigning and (2) a fair and equitable selection of a REAL delegation. Even then, there is a penalty that will be paid that's unavoidable. The piper WILL be paid.

[spartan61]

10. I'm a Florida voter and I am NOT outraged!!!

I knew going in that my vote was not going to count because THE RULES WERE BROKEN! I voted anyway because of the property tax amendment. It's too bad that the primary date was moved up, but when rules are broken, there should be consequences. We can't make up the rules, or change the rules, as we go along. Would Hillary be this vocal about MI and FL if she was the one who was ahead and Obama was the one squawking about it? I don't think so.

[Obamanaut]

32. Me too (a not outraged Fl voter). My goal now is to vote against

any incumbent this Nov who is running for reelection. They got us into this mess, let them find work elsewhere. The prop tax amendment is the reason I voted.

[TahitiNut]

11. As a Michigan voter, I'm appalled at her attempt to make hay from the FUBAR of the primary.

This is someone who throws folks under the bus and then tries to sell their organs! Appalling.

The Democratic Party (state and national) fucked up BIG TIME and created a FUBAR for the sake of infighting over control of party machinery. There was NEVER a priority placed on a 'democratic' process - instead, they feuded over PRIVILEGE. The authoritarian apportionment of the privelege of "who goes first?" NEVER adopted a "women and children" priority of most in need. New Hampshire and Iowa are NOT "most in need." Michigan's voice, the voice of the people hit hardest by unemployment and foreclosures, was stifled ... IGNORED. Michigan's economy was only good for RAISING campaign money ... and not worth spending it.

A FUBAR ... like Humpty Dumpty ... cannot be made whole. Hillary is chowing down on omelette while pretending to exhort the King's horses and King's men to put it together again. Her mouth is full.

Sheesh! ... imagine the self-serving political myopia that's willing to sacrifice Michigan's 17 electoral votes to the GOP in order to run a protection racket in the Democratic Party!

Makes me even gladder to be an independent liberal. The partisan obsessions are insane.

[guruoo]

12. IMHO, Hillary's duty to try, Obama's duty to prevent.

[ProSense]

15. Try what? n/t

[blm]

17. Was it her duty to end the race on Super Tuesday as she planned so no other votes

of the other states' would matter to the outcome?

[ProSense]

31. Video:

"It's not a very long run. It'll be over by Feb. 5."

[Scurrilous]

16. K & R

:thumbsup:

[ProSense]

18. No comments from Hillary supporters? Do you believe

she can win the ten remaining contests by the margins indicated?

[WillyT]

19. Wow... Did You Read THIS ???

From the comments section of Setrak's Piece...

**************************************************************************************
I am one of those "disenfranchised" Floridians...

And frankly, I would be more upset if the state vote counted. I have put together a very active group of Obama supporters here, and I think maybe half of them bothered to vote in the primary. It was a cold an rainy day at the height of flu season, and the other ballot issue was about a confusing property tax amendment that was designed to help mostly people with houses values at < $200,000 and retirees.

That was an interesting demographic to appeal to with the one ballot issue, was it not?

The main reason I would be more upset is because I spent the two weeks leading up to our primary, at the request of the Obama campaign, in South Carolina turning out their vote. Because, you know, Obama respected the rules and stuff. I wasn't told with a wink to stay home and organize here. I worked a neighborhood that had 88% turnout and went 95% for Obama, because I understood that working in Lexington County was my way to make my voice heard in this primary.

If I were upset about my vote not counting, I'd channel that anger at my local and state Democratic Party. My local group will not return my phone calls, will not tell me the location of the Democratic Women's Club meetings, tell me that they've already given out all the call sheets for the Presidential funding bonus. The local elections have zero Democratic candidates running, and Republicans regularly point out to people that if they want to vote in local elections, they have to register as Republicans. The local Democratic Women's Club has 39 members (all pro-Hillary) and at my last SoWal for Obama party we had almost 100 people, but they don't want us to be involved.

The Democrats at the state level are responsible for moving up the primary, in a bald attempt to increase their own influence. They could have stopped this, but they chose to gamble with my right to vote in the primary. If I blame anyone, I blame Bill Nelson, Debbie Wasserman Schulz, and Karen Thurman -- not Barack Obama or Howard Dean.

by Punzy on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 07:46:00 AM PDT

*****************************************************************************************

Link: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/4/6/8858/13637/166/491047

I'm sorry, but I think Florida Democrats are getting what they deserve. At least a lot of them are.

:mad:

[ProSense]

27. Interesting, thanks. n/t

[kwenu]

20. I certainly haven't forgotten. Split the delegates 50/50 between the candidates and seat them.

Case closed.

[WillyT]

21. I Agree With That !!!

:toast:

[ecdab]

22. The whole Mi and FL thing has been the low point for the Clinton campaign

- and that's saying something.

I don't know that I have ever seen such a disingenuous attempt to skew an election while screaming that they are trying to make sure voters voices are heard.

the delayed and fake outrage is fairly charming as well :sarcasm:

[ProSense]

38. It's beyond bizarre.

It's like a crutch, even when there is no crutch there.

[ProSense]

23. Ed Rendell's lame argument:

Tim Russert moderated and asked some provocative questions.

One was whether the Clinton camp would “deny” Mr. Obama the nomination if he was leading in delegates and the popular vote.

Mr. Rendell said the superdelegates would look to see who was running better in the polls against Senator John McCain, the presumptive Republican nominee, especially in the big states. If Mrs. Clinton is running stronger in late June, he said, “then I think the superdelegates have to look long and hard at making her the nominee.”

Mr. Russert pressed him and asked what young, African-American delegates might do at the convention in Denver if Mrs. Clinton was picked over Mr. Obama, even if he were leading in popular votes and delegates. And he noted that a recent New York Times survey found that Democrats across the country think Mr. Obama would be a stronger candidate (56 percent) than Mrs. Clinton (32 percent) in the fall against Mr. McCain.

Mr. Rendell used the Clinton campaign’s big-state argument. He said the superdelegates would have to look at trends of where the popular vote was and what the percentages were. And, he said, if she wins Pennsylvania, which votes April 22, she’ll have “an insurmountable lead among states with electoral votes.”

He raised a cautionary note: “I think you can make an argument, ‘Will some people, if Senator Clinton were to win the nomination, will some people stay at home?’ Sure. But Senator McCain is going to lose some of the far right wing in his party. If Senator Obama became the candidate, are there some women — plenty of women say to me, they’re not voting at all if Hillary Clinton is not on the ballot. I think most of those voters will come home.”

link

[stillcool]

24. And yet the 'argument' continues...

no matter how often the facts are laid bare for all to see, the same old tactics are recycled for what? She is just stalling, hoping to cook up something that will bring Senator Obama down. Everything else is filler, argument for argument's sake..while they examine every day of Senator Obama's life..hoping for some morsel of ambiguity they can blow up and use to alter their fate.

[ProSense]

29. It's becoming quite

surreal. They have nothing left but spin.

[MarjorieG]

25. With election costs millions, scenario they split MI & FL.

So with all that money, unfair and rushed primaries where ballots don't reach everywhere-overseas and students, with machines being replaced and sure to fail (whether we know it or not), I say what is the point when they split the difference, MI for Obama and FL for Hillary.

Primaries are to introduce candidates, not make the final case against McCain. I am sure that the other states which were impacted by absentee early voting, seeing Obama for the first time, had different challenges and even changes of mind since those first votes.

By her pushing for overthrow of pledges delegates, the result of primaries and voters intent, she disenguously makes her case for disenfranchising everyone else.

Thanks, Prosense.

[ProSense]

30. Good point!

:hi:

[ProSense]

26. Hillary: “We’ll win by running a 50-state campaign.”

April 6, 2008, 4:34 pm

Clinton: No State Will Be Overlooked

By John M. Broder

Hillary Rodham Clinton demonstrated her new commitment to campaign in all the remaining contests by appearing this weekend in Oregon and Montana, states that most polls and experts say are likely to vote for Barack Obama in primaries in May and early June.

Mrs. Clinton squeezed in an appearance in North Dakota, a state that Mr. Obama won decisively on Feb. 5, in hopes of maybe poaching a delegate or two. She appeared on stage at a Democratic convention in Grand Forks Friday night with North Dakota’s three-member Congressional delegation -– who have all endorsed Mr. Obama.

The core message in the three states was the same – Mrs. Clinton would continue to fight for the nomination, despite the long odds and the calls by some for her to withdraw in the name of party unity. And she is, finally, pursuing votes in every state, an implicit acknowledgment of the error of her earlier strategy of ignoring smaller states and those holding caucuses rather than primaries.

She even promised to campaign from one end of North Dakota to the other in the general election if she wins the nomination, even though the state has not gone Democratic in a presidential election since 1964.

“I would be ecstatic to campaign across this state in the fall, doing everything in our power to persuade the good people of North Dakota that we can do better,” she said. “We’ll win by running a 50-state campaign.”

HILLarious!

[bhikkhu]

34. ("but the only ones that count are the ones we win")

[ProSense]

35. Her campaign began as a five-state strategy. n/t

[grassfed]

33. Hillary: YES on FL and MI, NO on the other 48 states

http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/dylan_loewe/2008/04/the_writing_on_clintons_wall.html

Out of one side of her mouth, Hillary argues that all remaining contests should be completed before a decision is made and that Florida and Michigan ought to be seated for fear of their disenfranchisement. Out of the other side, she argues that the delegates that were allocated based on state primaries and caucuses should actually ignore their obligation to support the candidate to which they were pledged. She is uncomfortable disenfranchising Florida and Michigan, but perfectly content tossing out the other 48.

[truebrit71]

36. If Obama had "won" either one of those states Hillary would be too busy dodging sniperfire to care..

...

[ProSense]

40. Maybe he'll win PA and put Hillary's

miserable campaign to bed.

[ProSense]

37. "Wretched rationalizations for Hillary Clinton's kamikaze campaign."

The New Republic

No Really, You Should Go

by Jonathan Chait
Wretched rationalizations for Hillary Clinton's kamikaze campaign.
Post Date Wednesday, April 23, 2008

Last week, Senator Pat Leahy suggested that Hillary Clinton ought to quit the presidential race. How insensitive! How boorish! Pundits gasped, Clinton took umbrage, and even Barack Obama was forced to concede that Clinton has the right to run for as long as she desires.

The persistent weakness of American liberalism is its fixation with rights and procedures at any cost to efficiency and common sense. Democrats' reluctance to push Clinton out of the race is the perfect expression of that delicate sensibility.

There is some point at which a candidate's chance of winning becomes so low that her right to continue is outweighed by the party's interest in preparing for the general election. Does Clinton have a chance to become president? Sure. So does Ralph Nader. Clinton's chances are far closer to Nader's than to either Obama's or John McCain's.

Almost nobody contends that Clinton has a chance to overcome Obama's lead in pledged delegates. The spin now is that Obama's delegate lead is "small but almost insurmountable" (USA Today) and that, since neither can clinch the nomination with pledged delegates alone, "the nomination is expected to be in the superdelegates' hands" (Los Angeles Times). These beliefs reflect the mathematical illiteracy that has allowed the press corps to be routinely duped by economic flim-flammery. A lead that's insurmountable is, by definition, not small. The very primary rules that make it impossible for Clinton to catch up--proportionate distribution of delegates that award tiny net sums to the winner--are exactly what made Obama's lead so impressive.

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[apocalypsehow]

39. K & R.

:thumbsup:

[ProSense]

42. Clinton Expresses Frustration with the Democratic Party

Clinton Expresses Frustration with the Democratic Party

April 10, 2008 4:56 PM

Sen. Hillary Clinton, D-N.Y., vented frustration that the Democratic Party has failure to come to a resolution about how to handle the convention delegations in Florida and Michigan.

"I really don’t understand why the Republican Party very clearly decided what they were going to do, and the Democratic Party can’t decide," Clinton said going further than she has in the past in her critique.

Senator Clinton then turned on her opponent, Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill., saying "he doesn’t want the votes to count. Senator Obama has been very very clear - do not count those votes or come up with some kind of resolution which disenfranchises people."

An exasperated Senator Clinton burst into a fit of laughter, after being asked twice about the Colombia trade deal and a possible conflict of interest with her differing opinions she has with her husband. When asked if there was a conflict of interest specifically with her husband receiving $800,000 for speaking engagements ostensibly in support of the trade deal and Clinton giving her own money to her own campaign, Clinton burst out laughing. "And how many angels dance on the head of a pin. I have really, nothing to, I mean how do you answer that. I am against the Colombia free trade deal. It doesn’t matter who talks to me. It doesn’t matter any circumstances I’ve been against it I am against it I will be against it."

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Good grief!

[ProSense]

43. Photo: