Why the DNC must count Florida's 1.75 million votes and seat no less than half of our delegates

[Maribelle]

After all, the rules are the rules.

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/opinion/content/opinion/epaper/2008/04/06/a1e_deutch_commentary_0406.html

A summary of Ted Deutch opinion article at the above link:

(1) the rules that we have been discussing are the delegate selection rules for the 2008 Democratic National Convention

(2) A record number of Florida Democrats, more than 1.7 million voters, went to the polls for the Jan. 29 Florida primary, and not one of them broke any rules by exercising his or her right to vote.

(3) DNC Chairman Howard Dean announced his commitment to work toward a solution to seat the delegates in Denver.

(4) Rule 11 clearly prohibits primaries or caucuses from being held prior to the first Tuesday in February, except in Iowa, New Hampshire, Nevada and South Carolina which have other rules.

(4.A) Iowa, permitted to go "no earlier than 22 days before the first Tuesday in February" (Jan. 14), moved its caucuses to Jan. 3
(4.B) New Hampshire, granted the freedom to hold its primary "no earlier than 14 days" (Jan. 22)moved to January 8.
(4.C) South Carolina, "no earlier than seven days" (Jan. 29), defied the DNC and moved to Jan. 26.

(5) According to Rule 20.C: "The number of pledged delegates elected ... shall be reduced by 50''percent." The rules do not say that the votes of Florida Democrats do not count. Indeed, the penalty established by the DNC's own rules is based upon the results of the primary; therefore, the results of the primary must be valid.

(6) While the rules designate a 50 percent delegate reduction, the DNC imposed the death penalty - a 100 percent reduction - on Florida and Michigan. Amazingly, the other "rule-breakers" got no penalty at all.

(7) If the DNC insists on treating Florida differently, then it should be reminded that its own rules establish a 50 percent penalty rather than the death penalty given to Florida Democrats.

(8) For Dr. Dean to truly move this process forward, he should publicly acknowledge immediately that the rules do not say that the votes of Floridians do not count; the rules require that the votes are counted.

(9) Thus, when the national popular vote is tallied and analyzed, it must include the 1.75 million votes cast by Florida Democrats in the primary. Florida Democrats voted, and the rules say to count the votes.

[madfloridian]

1. Bull Hockey

.

[Maribelle]

2. Only in your mind

[babylonsister]

3. Baloney. Not the DNC's fault; next time maybe FL and MI won't act

so irresponsibly.

[Maribelle]

6. Had the DNC stuck to the 50% rule as the RNC did, Florida would be golden.

[babylonsister]

10. DNC does not equal the RNC, never has, never will.

And if your gal wasn't losing, this wouldn't even be an issue.

[Maribelle]

16. In the General Election it will be an issue.

[babylonsister]

17. It will be dealt with by then. nt

[Maribelle]

19. Regardless - the republicans will use this fiasco against the democrats in the General Election.

Republicans in Florida have already begun this mockery.

Watch for it to emerge nationally.

[babylonsister]

21. You're trying to use it against Dems now; what does that make you? nt

[Maribelle]

These 1.7 million folks you are tyring to marginalize are Democrats, you know.

[Maribelle]

25. I want the voices of 1.7 million of my fellow Floridians to be heard.

It is disgusting that you falsely claim I am trying to use it against democrats now. Look ashamed.

[babylonsister]

34. You could care less who's heard as long as your gal gets the votes.

At least be honest. Like I said, were she winning, this would be a non-issue. For that matter, were she winning, Obama would have been expected to bow out gracefully way before now.

[Maribelle]

37. No - it's you that would be crying all over the world if Obama won Florida.

Go poop elsewhere.

[yurbud]

20. yep. a rare instance when GOP was more reasonable than Dems

[totodeinhere]

39. So you are really saying that the Dems should actually follow the example set by the Repukes?

No thank you. The last thing we should do is follow those assholes.

[Maribelle]

42. What I am saying is the DNC should not be doing worse the the RNC.

Get it yet?

[totodeinhere]

75. No I don't get it.

There is no reason to even compare the DNC with the RNC. Remember these RNC thugs are the same ones who stole two elections from us. So it's disingenuous to even try to compare us to them.

[DemVet]

7. "People" acting irresponsibly? You mean...

...ALL of the people in MI and FL should be penalized for the actions of a few?

But hey, rules are rules, right?

I guess you won't mind if some of the other delegates "pledged" for Obama change their votes to Hillary, huh?

Hey, the "rules" say they can do that.

[Maribelle]

13. Not one of the 1.7 million voters broke any rules by exercising his or her right to vote

As Mr. Deutch said in his atricle...

"a record number of Florida Democrats, more than 1.7 million voters, went to the polls for the Jan. 29 Florida primary, and not one of them broke any rules by exercising his or her right to vote. But the DNC has said that they don't count."

[DemVet]

15. Exactly....well said.

[Inuca]

24. What about the unkown numbers

that did not bother to vote after being told that their vote would not matter in any case? It's a mess, but whichever way you look at it, the results are not significant.

[Maribelle]

27. But who told them their vote would not matter? Kerry? Obama?

[Inuca]

30. No

The DNC and all the candidates that were still in he race, including of course Clinton. There are quotes of her saying this exact thing, and I am sure you have seen/heard them.

[Maribelle]

40. Wrong. Wrong. And wrong.

There was a huge campaign by all Florida elected officials to ensure to the voters that the primary was important and that their votes would be counted.


September 23, 2007 - - FDP made the announcement that the January 29th elections WILL be binding! This means that every Floridian will have their vote counted.

January 24, 2008 - - All the Democratic presidential candidates still in the race will be on the ballot, according to the Florida Democratic Party, and state and Leon County party officials are encouraging Democrats to vote just as if their votes will count

January 27, 2008 - - “The votes will count and that’s the thing we keep trying to convince people of is the votes will count,” said Browning. “When we get through with that election, we will certify that election and then it will be up to the Democratic National Committee or the Republican National Committee to decide what to do with those votes.” If and when that happens, Florida’s election leaders vow to be ready. “What we want to do is—regardless of when the election is held—we want to conduct that election with the very highest standards, make sure we get accurate, right numbers and get it certified timely,” said Browning.

January 28, 2008 - - "I believe that it absolutely will happen," Florida Democratic Party Chairwoman Karen Thurman said. "Our voices do count and we're going to be heard and we're going to vote."

January 29, 2008 - - Governor Crist The Florida primary is a day for the people and the nation is waiting to hear what Floridians have to say.

[Inuca]

47. You stated some facts, but

none of them are related to what I said, nor do they prove that I was wrong.

[Maribelle]

48. You are wrong saying there are quotes about Hillary regarding Florida.

You are wrong regarding the DNC. The DNC never said the votes would not count. They only said the delegates would not be seated.

Hillary said before the Florida election she would work to get the delegates seated at the convention.

You are wrong wrong wrong.

[Inuca]

71. Well... you are stubborn stubborn stubborn

and parsing parsing parsing. I saw and read the quote from Hillary several times, and no I do not have a link, nor will I look for it. She said i of course a while back, before she realized that she may actually need those delegates and badly. As to not seating the delegates vs. not counting the votes, this is parsing of the worst kind. You can count whatever you want, as long as the delegates do not have a say at the convention, it does not really matter whether you count votes or butterflies. And by the way, the popular vote does NOT count, the "electoral vote" does NOT count, etc. End of discussion as far as I am concerned.

[movonne]

18. I think we all are penalized for the actions of a few....just look at our

country right now....this could have been avoided if these states had stuck to the rules....blame you local dems in these states for what happened...

[sandnsea]

4. You'll probably get all of the delegates seated

as soon as there is a winner and the loser releases her delegates, and everybody votes for Obama. So why would the state Dem Party agree to half the delegates now, when they know they're going to get 100% of them two months from now.

[DemVet]

9. Exactly!

Let them be seated...then they can vote for Hillary.

[sandnsea]

23. Except she's going to have to concede

because she isn't going to win the pledged delegates; so then the FL delegates, and all the rest of the delegates, will vote for the winner, Obama.

[DemVet]

31. Winner?

How exactly do you figure Obama will win before the convention? He won't have 2025 delegates. Superdelegates, despite who they SAY they are voting for, don't come into play until the convention.

edit...typo

[sandnsea]

35. The loser always concedes

She'll concede when he wins the majority of pledged delegates and all the superdelegates endorse him. That's the way it's worked for years now.

[DemVet]

51. Years?

You don't remember 1980 do you? "That's the way it's worked for years now" doesn't mean Hillary is going to bend and concede to a novice.

[sandnsea]

54. Yeah, that's almost 30 years ago.

It's a new century. Get with democracy, where the vote of the people rules.

[DemVet]

57. The vote of the people rules, huh?

It's very possible Clinton will have more popular votes and Obama more delegates (but not enough to secure the nomination) at the end of primary season. Who should the superdelegates vote for then? Which is the will of the people...delegates or popular votes?

[sandnsea]

59. We have a proportional delegate system

We reward blocks of voters who are consistently loyal to the Party. Those are the rules that the candidates were dealing with when this campaign started. The delegate vote represents the will of the people.

[DemVet]

76. Yeah....try to swing that little idea past the people.

There is no way in hell that a delegate count represents the will of the people IF the popular vote for the other candidate is higher. No way.

[qazplm]

50. yeah

sure, but then she still loses.

You could seat Michigan and Florida in total now and she still loses.

[OzarkDem]

5. We can't write off FL and MI in the GE, its political suicide

and we also can't afford to give the GOP ammunition against us in fighting for clean, open and fair elections.

[DemVet]

11. Stop it!!!

You are clearly making way too much sense. What's gotten into you?

[Inuca]

28. This is nothing but

a BS talking point. There is no reason, no data, no precedent, no anything to make such an assumption. It may happen, or it may not, we just do not know, and there is no valid reason to assume one way or another.

[spoony]

43. So screw 'em over and hope for the best? Sounds like a winning plan.

[Inuca]

70. I did not say that

I was simply saying that assuming that all the good people in FL and MI will just stau at home or vote republican is an unsubstantiated statement. Also, there are things that at any given moment in time CAN be controlled and others that CANNOT. From everything I hear a re-vote a this point falls in he uncontrollable category, and counting the votes as such falls in the ridiculous category, so both parties should try to come up with a compromise. Definition of compromise: nobody likes it, nobody is happy, but everybody can more or less live with it.

[onehandle]

8. If this goes to convention, the rules will be thrown out. FL and MI will be seated in some capacity.

Doubtful this will help Hillary, but FL and MI must be at the convention in some capacity.

[SanchoPanza]

74. They certainly will, but the rules will remain intact.

Their delegations will be seated in the standing committees, but will not be permitted to vote on any measure involving their presence in the nominating process. Whatever standing their nominating delegates have will likely be a result of a compromise report in the Credentials Committee that's approved on the floor. This will more than likely be a 50/50 split.

[BumRushDaShow]

12. Threads repeating the same nonsense over and over

is getting nowhere.

The DNC's Rules and Bylaws Subcommittee voted to change the rules, twice. Per here:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/08/25/AR2007082500275_pf.html

and most recently per here:

http://www.democracyfornewhampshire.com/node/view/5128

The end.

[JVS]

14. No.

[Vinca]

22. Then we'll have to go back to the caucus states and run primaries

so their popular votes will count, too.

[Bensthename]

26. Like Hillary, my kids also cry to get what they want even though they are breaking the rules.

Hillary is a poor loser and is trying to take Obama down with her. She would rather see a pissed off seperated dem party in the fall then for Obama to beat McCain. She knows at this point she can't win. What is her problem? She can stay in the race, but hell she shouldn't be trying to divide the party while doing it. .. Very sad.

[Maribelle]

56. Not one of the 1.7 million voters in Florida broke any rules.

[Bensthename]

60. No, Hillary first agreed Fl and MI would not count. And..

EVERY one knows the Clintons. As you have noticed Hillary always leads in the polls before any state primary. But when Obama starts campaigning in those states, the voters have a chance to get to know him and the polls start to change in his favor. Obama like the other candidated assumed there would be no delegates or votes counted in Florida like every one agreed upon, including Hillary. If he would have campaigned there the votes would be alot different..

Florida took themselves out. The candidates agreed to this also. So it is over.

[Maribelle]

69. Wrong. Hillary stated before the Flordia primary she would attempt to have the delegates seated.

The candidates only agreed to not campaign in Florida and Michigan in the pledge they signed. Nothing more. And it did not apply to fund raising in those states either, as some have falsely claimed it did.

The text of the pledge:

Four State Pledge Letter 2008
Iowa, New Hampshire, Nevada, South Carolina
August 31, 2007

WHEREAS, Over a year ago, the Democratic National Committee established a 2008 nominating calendar;

WHEREAS, this calendar honors the racial, ethnic, economic and geographic diversity of our party and our country;

WHEREAS, the DNC also honored the traditional role of retail politics early in the nominating process, to insure that money alone will not determine our presidential nominee;

WHEREAS, it is the desire of Presidential campaigns, the DNC, the states and the American people to bring finality, predictability and common sense to the nominating calendar.

THEREFORE, I _______________, Democratic Candidate for President, pledge I shall not campaign or participate in any state which schedules a presidential election primary or caucus before Feb. 5, 2008, except for the states of Iowa, Nevada, New Hampshire and South Carolina, as “campaigning” is defined by rules and regulations of the DNC.

http://www.talkleft.com/story/2008/3/9/201240/0802

[DerekJ]

29. Maribelle, Check this video out and tell me what do you think

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2xHRqi8nsvI

[Maribelle]

33. First of all, I am discussing Florida here. Your video was not related.

Second of all, that discussion was all about Hillary's name on the Michigan ballot. If taking his name off the Michigan was so important to Obama, then why didn't he take it off Florida's ballot??? Or did he do it in Michigan just for show? Or perhaps to pander votes in New Hampshire?

Or do you think it was like his Rezko fiasco, just a "boneheaded mistake"?

I think a lot of folks, including Hillary, have a totally different perception of the 2.2 million voters that came out to vote in record shattering numbers for the primaries in these two states.

Perhaps you should find a video of Kerry on the evening of January 28th ranting on and on how the Florida primary would not be valid and the votes would not be counted.

[DerekJ]

44. My point is very simple.

Hillary is on tape in October saying she doesn’t even know why she kept her name on the ballot, and admitting that it will not count for anything. Why didn't Hillary refuse "disfranchising" the voters then?

Really brining Rezko in the conversation won't help your candidate, as I have a list of Rezkos for Hillary.

I don't give a fuck what senator Kerry said/did, he is not running for president as far as I know.

Google amendment number 1 to know why there were "1.7 Million voters" in Florida. Most of the people who went to the ballot are the people who own homes, and went to either vote against or for that amendment.

Edit: rephrase

[Maribelle]

46. Wrong. Most went to vote because they were encouraged to do so.

google these honeys, why don't you:



September 23, 2007 - - FDP made the announcement that the January 29th elections WILL be binding! This means that every Floridian will have their vote counted.

January 24, 2008 - - All the Democratic presidential candidates still in the race will be on the ballot, according to the Florida Democratic Party, and state and Leon County party officials are encouraging Democrats to vote just as if their votes will count

January 27, 2008 - - “The votes will count and that’s the thing we keep trying to convince people of is the votes will count,” said Browning. “When we get through with that election, we will certify that election and then it will be up to the Democratic National Committee or the Republican National Committee to decide what to do with those votes.” If and when that happens, Florida’s election leaders vow to be ready. “What we want to do is—regardless of when the election is held—we want to conduct that election with the very highest standards, make sure we get accurate, right numbers and get it certified timely,” said Browning.

January 28, 2008 - - "I believe that it absolutely will happen," Florida Democratic Party Chairwoman Karen Thurman said. "Our voices do count and we're going to be heard and we're going to vote."

January 29, 2008 - - Governor Crist The Florida primary is a day for the people and the nation is waiting to hear what Floridians have to say.

September 23, 2007 - - FDP made the announcement that the January 29th elections WILL be binding! This means that every Floridian will have their vote counted.

January 24, 2008 - - All the Democratic presidential candidates still in the race will be on the ballot, according to the Florida Democratic Party, and state and Leon County party officials are encouraging Democrats to vote just as if their votes will count

January 27, 2008 - - “The votes will count and that’s the thing we keep trying to convince

[DerekJ]

58. Wow, Some Quotes!!!

Those disconnected, with no context, unreferenced, unsubstantiated honeys constitutes the lamest defending argument I have seen for a while.

Did you notice that only in Florida, the republican voters exceeded the democratic ones? Because they wanted to save 400 bucks a year or so, they ran to the polls to vote yes on the amendment. Only in Florida did this happen. Only the people with homes were concerned with this vote. Everybody else knew it wasn't going to count.


You are also deflecting. I am still waiting for my questions to be answered.

The video is very clear. Hillary knew the votes in Michigan will not count, and she didn't care. She only started to care now, when she is losing.

Here is an article:

ND: Clinton Asks Pledged Delegates To Switch From Obama

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/story?id=4596305&page=1

So much for not disfranchising the voters. She is asking pledged delegated representing peoples’ vote to switch candidates.

[Maribelle]

63. One would have assumed from you prior post you are the google king.

However, practicing what one preaches does not seem to be a trait Obama supporters care about.

[DerekJ]

61. I am going to bed so we have to continue this conversation later. But

to put simply, Hillary was not, and is not the champion against the disfranchisement of voters. She acknowledged the fact they will be disfranchised in MI, without objecting to that, and she signed the pledge to disfranchise them.

She is still trying to disfranchise the voters by “stealing” pledged delegates.

May it’s within the rules to do so, but it’s certainly unethical, and certainly a disfranchisement of the voters.

Many people sat out the election because they thought it won’t count. Trying to assume the ratio would have been the same should those voters knew the election will count is a fallacy. It also constitutes disfranchising the voters who didn’t vote because they knew it wasn’t going to count. You can’t send a signal to the voters that the election will not count, and then tell them “HA HA, we tricked you, it’s going to count now”, it amounts to election fraud in my book.

Trying to assume that the ratio would have been the same if Obama was allowed to campaign there is also a fallacy. He closed the gap, and exceeded it, on several occasions.

Your argument has no merit what so ever.

[Maribelle]

64. She signed a pledge to not campaign in MI and FL - - nothing more.

And regarding "stealing" pledged delegates - - - you are totally wrong on two points.


Firstly, MSM and Obama cry caucus delegates are "pledged". However, as in Texas and Nevada, most caucus states do not "pledge" the delegates until the State Conventions. Nevada was quite vocal about this. Texas has it detailed on their web site.

Secondly, for the interim, you would be totally clueless if you believed any candidate did not try to persuade delegates to change their votes. Obama is doing it. All of them do it. This is the way it goes.

[Oilwellian]

77. You say "nothing more"

Perhaps you can explain what "or participate in" means. I look forward to your answer. Thanks. :D

[bigbrother05]

49. He tried to, but FL law would not allow that. Damn rules!

When will that foolish constitutional lawyer realize that laws/rules are for suckers and losers?

Harold Ickes (sp.), HRC supporter was on the rules committee that voted to invoke the "death penalty" in an attempt to force a de facto nat'l primary on Feb 5. It backfired and now they want another chance to revive their hopes.

[Maribelle]

53. You had better check up on that Florida Law. Florida would have allowed Obama to remove his name but

but what?

I know. You obviously do not.

[bigbrother05]

68. Have tried to find direct reference to FL law...

have only found secondary sources, from DU posters and other blog sources.

Seems the prevailing consensus is that the FL law would allow someone to remove their name, but only because they have withdrawn from the race entirely. This was cited in the Mark Foley case, his name was on the ballot because he had withdrawn within a window that was too close to the election to change the ballots.

Not being from FL, can't say that I know every detail of their election laws, but find it interesting that Obama followed the same rules as Edwards and others.

[Orangepeel]

32. count 1.75 million votes for what? The popular vote doesn't count for anything.

The credentials committee will probably end up letting at least 50% of FL delegates vote, because by then it won't matter. Neither candidate will beat McCain in Florida anyway, not with Crist carrying him across the state, but the credentials committee will want to compromise.

[Maribelle]

36. Hillary is slightly ahead of McCain in Florida, Obama is losing to McCain there.

Democrat Hillary Rodham Clinton is leading Republican John McCain in Florida, according to a poll by the Quinnipiac University Polling Institute. 44 per cent of respondents in the Sunshine State would vote for the New York senator in this year’s United States presidential election, while 42 per cent would back the Arizona senator.

In a separate contest, McCain holds a nine-point advantage over Illinois senator Barack Obama.

more ...

http://www.angus-reid.com/polls/view/hillary_slightly_ahead_of_mccain_in_florida/

[Orangepeel]

41. I believe they will both lose to McCain. Democrats always poll better than they actually do in FL

for *cough* some reason or another. Counting on Clinton winning Florida to win the presidency is just not a good idea, IMO.

[Maribelle]

45. McCain won by a very small margin on Jan 29th, and Hillary received far more votes than him then.

And McCain had Crist's endorsement.

There are a lot of factors going on in this state.

[Orangepeel]

55. If FL primary votes predict the winner of the general,

we all better hope that a lot of Democratic voters didn't bother to vote because they knew it wouldn't count. Because the difference between r and d votes is much larger than the difference between Clinton and McCain votes. Everybody who voted for McCain in the primary will vote for him again, and I don't see many Romney or Huckabee voters switching to Clinton.

Like always, the Democrat will win in South Florida and the republican will win in North Florida. Unfortunately, I think that McCain will do very well in the I-4 corridor, particularly with Crist's help.

If Clinton should get the nom, I hope you're right. But I wouldn't bet any money on it. I don't think it is a good idea to bet the future of the country entirely on the likelihood of Clinton winning Florida. Obama has very little chance in Florida, but at least he has other potential paths to 280.

[Maribelle]

62. In Florida, Democratic voters shattered all records, however, and Hillary did, as well.

The likelihood of Clinton winning Florida, is just one piece of this massive puzzle, however. If Obama cannot beat Hillary in the big states, especially the ones where he heavily campaigned such as California, he clearly cannot beat McCain.

Obama has done well in the caucus states - - however the campaign strategy he used in those states is a waste for the general election, those tactics simply will not work in the general election. Obama has done well in the red states, mostly in the solid red ones that will never turn blue, ever.

Obama cannot pull the necessary 2024 delegates (or whatever the number is today).

This nomination is in the hands of the super-delegates.

[Orangepeel]

66. Oh, c'mon. Obama would not lose CA and Clinton would not lose IL

What's clear is that that particular "argument" holds no water.

But, we were talking about Florida. We agree that Obama is unlikely to win Florida. It seems we disagree on whether or not Clinton has a shot and whether or not superdelegates will be silly enough to put all our eggs in Florida's basket.

[mbperrin]

38. Thank you! I belong to the party of inclusion.

Those who seek to cage, eliminate, intimidate, or otherwise negate voters are not members of my party!

Party of rules and punishment? Try the Other Guys. They spout that a lot!

Maribelle, keep it up! This is well done.

[ecdab]

73. LOL, this from the group that doesn't want to count a single Obama

supporter in Michigan. Can some of you folks get any more disingenuous and transparent.

[undeterred]

52. Only in Hillaryworld do two wrongs make a right.

[TML]

65. And your state party broke them

[indimuse]

67. K&R!!!!

I'm getting the feeling...."Obamedia" and followers are truly TRYING to lose the WH!! Unreal!

[SanchoPanza]

72. Nope

Point 1: Rules which are selectively quoted by people who seek to undermine the DNCs credibility on this matter.

Point 2: Irrelevent. The rules regarding legitimacy of a nominating contest pertain to those that organized that contest, not the voters who participated in it.

Point 3: Dean's desire to seat the delegates is governed by two variables: The rules for nominating contests and the amount of effort given by FL/MI state parties to reach a compromise.

Point 4: Prima facia non-complaince with Rule 11 can be ameliorated by the organizing party's demonstration of trying to remain in compliance. The author also leaves out the fact that state laws governing nominating contests explicitly trump Rule 11. The Rules and Bylaws committee granted compliance to Iowa, NH, and SC because they have state laws governing their contests.

Point 5: Rules 20.C.5 and 6 gives the Rules and Bylaws Committee the authority to impose any sanctions "the committee deems appropriate". The committee deemed a 100% delegate reduction appropriate. Take it up with them.

Point 6: There were no other rule breakers.

Point 7: The 50% Penalty isn't a mandatory maximum, nor the only permissible penalty.

Point 8: Logical gymnasitics.

Point 9: More logical gymnastics.