Clinton's lost face time

[cbayer]

Our culture's double standard on appearance puts her at a disadvantage.

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-oe-kinsley27mar27,0,6660646.story

I found this article very interesting and am posting it for what I hope will be a rational discussion of this issue and in response to another OP on the topic.

Some excerpts:

"Every day for almost two years, the candidates campaign. The average day is probably 15 to 20 hours. The average amount of sleep could be four hours. Yet, every day, the male candidates can sleep an extra precious half-hour or more -- or spend the time cramming for the day -- simply because our culture doesn't impose the same rules on them about their appearance.

And these really are rules. Sure, there are women who take no more trouble about their appearance than most men do, and men who take more than the typical woman. But a middle-aged woman who is the first of her sex to make a serious run for the presidency is not going to be a pioneer in indifference to looks. One revolution at a time. She has got to look put together, all day, every day."

"This issue goes back to the early days of "women's lib," of course, when opponents of the movement talked about "bra burners" and made crude jokes about unshaved legs. It was considered an advance when it became established that a woman could dress like a woman and still be a business executive or lawyer. And Hillary Clinton, even if she loses, has established beyond all doubt that a woman can be a credible candidate for president. But she'll have to be one who needs even less sleep than her opponent."

[Raven]

1. With all due respect...bullshit! I'm Senator Clinton's age and I

have worked all my life as a lawyer, a judge and an administrator. I can tell you that makeup never made up for intelligence, quick wits and common sense. All Senator Clinton has to do is get up, take a shower, put on a decent set of clothing and get out there like everybody else and use her head. Nobody ever gave me an extra point for lipstick or rouge and nobody cares about that with respect to her. They do care about telling the truth and supporting good policies. Senator Clinton should spend more time in front of a mirror trying to find out who she really is.

[cbayer]

9. But did you run for office?

I personally struggle with this issue. In the political process, I think there is much more emphasis on appearance. Intelligence, quick wits and common sense are all important. However, if you look at some of the media coverage and even the threads here, there is much comment about her appearance than his.

I have run for office and I believe that there was a double standard where appearance was concerned.

[Levgreee]

2. she has the money to pay for a professional make-up artist to do it for her at the most convenient

time. She could be reading, or on the bus traveling, and have someone be spending the 20-30 minutes it takes to put her makeup on.
I don't buy that this is relevant at putting her "at a disadvantage".

[cbayer]

11. That's true and that is probably what happens.

It may not put her at a disadvantage at all. I don't have anyway of knowing for sure. I bring it up more to shine light on the double standard.

[gateley]

3. It's true --

I don't care how much we like to say looks don't matter, or make the man/woman, they play a vital part in that person's success.

A poster here mentioned (not snarkily) that it seemed to him/her that Hillary had been shown recently not looking as spiffed up as she usually does. I myself looked at her hair one day and thought it looked "flat" and wondered if she hadn't had time to wash it.

That would never happen with a man.

[Raven]

4. If she had more to say folks wouldn't notice the hair. n/t

[KittyWampus]

7. I would say, if she had more of her core SELF faced outwards to the public, folks wouldn't notice

lack of airbrush make-up.

[gateley]

14. We can't help but unconsciously notice

certain things about another's appearance, whether we're aware of it or not.


There is a double standard when it comes to looks, but even men are judged on their appearance, although not as harshly. Look at all the remarks about McCain on DU.

[cbayer]

12. It was quite interesting in the other thread about this topic.

The subject was brought up to ridicule her (Clinton made a statement that she should get some "points" for the extra time she has to devote to appearance) and then there were many reply posts critiquing her appearance.

Looks do matter and what society expects of a woman's appearance is quite different than what they expect from ment.

[parasim]

5. I don't know about that, makeup sure didn't help Rudy Guiliani...

[Harry Monroe]

15. Gee thanks!!!

Thanks for searing that image on my brain for the next few hours. I've gotta hurl now.

[Jed Dilligan]

6. She can get away with not shaving by wearing pants

And her makeup is way over-done. (Plus, don't they all have people put make-up on them? This is another attempt to make Hillary seem like she lives the same kind of life as the average career woman.)

What male candidate in the past century has gotten by without shaving? Richardson and Gore both grew beards almost as soon as they weren't candidates anymore.

I've never been with a woman who took longer to put on makeup than I took to shave (back when I used to shave). And they all looked great. I find this argument to be quite a spurious one, and it also looks really bad if you take it as an excuse for the poor performance of her campaign.

[KittyWampus]

8. talk about shaving- men have to shave every single day, some twice a day. They need more frequent

hair cuts.

[dkf]

10. Yeah I think shaving makes up for 1/3 of make up time.

On the other hand, I think Obama spends a lot more time keeping in touch with his kiddies. That more than compensates for makeup time.

[cbayer]

17. Both candidates have so little time to do all of the other things

that people need to do. Clinton has the good fortune to have an older child who actively participates in her campaign, so they get to spend a lot of time together. Obama, on the other hand, really does have to struggle with the issue of being available to his much younger children. It's got to be tough.

[cbayer]

16. I'm not posting it as an excuse for anything.

I was just hoping for a reasonable discussion of gender in the political process.

The facial hair issue is an interesting one and there is no doubt that there are appearance standards for men as well.

My personal experience is that most women spend more time preparing themselves to go out than most men do. Not all, but most.

I have previously been in a position where it was important politically that I look good - clothes, hair, make-up, jewelry, shoes, etc. Now I don't pay attention to any of that. I'm happier this way, but I couldn't run for office with my current appearance.

[Jed Dilligan]

19. I used to work in a corporate office

I shaved my beard off one day and started getting all these new assignments, a raise, etc.

Then I went to work for a professor and he didn't respect me very much until I grew the beard back.

I think all politicians are held to the standard of their appearance. The men not only have to be impeccably groomed (to a corporate standard) but also look very masculine, wear the best clothes and shoes, and in the case of tv appearances, they need their makeup done so well that you can't tell they're wearing it. I don't think they put significantly less time into this than their female counterparts. Remember all the Edwards haircut threads?

I personally would instinctively trust an old hippie with hair down to his/her ass than someone who spends so much time on his/her appearance. But, as life reminds me every day, I'm not in the mainstream of this country.

[cbayer]

20. "I'm not in the mainstream of this country."

I am not either and give thanks daily for that fact.

:toast:

[Jed Dilligan]

21. Amen to that.

:toast:

[anigbrowl]

13. Cry me a damn river - Barack needs to cut hair more often

:crazy:

[cbayer]

18. Not expecting you to feel sorry for anyone.

I just thought it was an interesting topic about gender differences.

[crispini]

22. If she really does blow that much time getting ready, she's doing it wrong.

Picking out clothes? She's got the dough to have a personal shopper and that person should be organized enough to have things put together in "outfits" -- no thinking about "does this top go with these pants," just reach for the day's "outfit" and there you go.

Hair, maybe, but again, doesn't she have a stylist that travels with her that can work on her hair while she's reading a briefing or some such stuff? As for makeup, it really shouldn't take that much longer than it does for a guy to shave.

[hedgehog]

23. Half an hour or more for make-up? I can do mine in about 5 minutes.

How much make-up is she wearing, anyways?

On edit: As an outstanding beauty with naturally curly hair, I have to remind myself to be mere charitable to others who haven't been as blessed as I am.