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Note to the Clinton Camp about why anti-war voters can't forget/forgive/dismiss the IWR vote

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AnarchoFreeThinker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-07-08 10:35 AM
Original message
Note to the Clinton Camp about why anti-war voters can't forget/forgive/dismiss the IWR vote
Here's the explanation, the context, I think some Clinton supporters are forgetting about the run-up to the war in Iraq. It can't be finessed or explained away. If you remember back to good old 2002 and 2003, you remember that almost all people counting themselves Progressives--before the war began-- knew:
1. That the administration's "reasons" for the war were bullshit, as was its supposed deliberation about whether to expand the war into Iraq.
2. That the war was only to serve the administration's political, economic, and/or ideological desires.
3. That the war would result in thousands, perhaps hundreds of thousands of civilian deaths (although nobody probably anticipated a million), as well as the loss of life of US troops, and the use of plenty of US resources.
4. That the war would be a disaster (although nobody perhaps could have predicted the extraordinary range of that disaster), given what we knew already of our country's "leadership."

I'd venture there were less than 10% of true progressives who didn't know these four things. In all likelihood, if you're reading this post right now, you knew these things before the war. You knew it. Don't forget that. Don't be fooled by re-writers of history.

And you also knew this:

5. That politicians in 2002 and 2003--many of them good Democrats--had become spineless, intimidated by the jingoistic fervor in our country, weak in the face of worries about challenges to patriotism, afraid of appearing soft. Yes, we knew, before the war in Iraq, that many of our old allies in the House and Senate had caved to external pressures and already had rhetorically made major political calculations in order to seem strong in time of crisis. And so we knew that when they voted "yea" on the Iraq War Resolution this was another political calculation--a massive calculation meant to preserve political careers and to inocculate the Democratic Party and its leaders from charges of lending support to the enemy, of being weak on terror, of being soft little doves in time of great crisis. We knew this. We railed against it right here. We lamented the betrayal--our betrayal--by the Democrats who we'd worked so hard to support in the past.

We fucking knew all this, as well as we KNEW:

6. That that Iraq War Resolution was, indeed, a war resolution--a political tool, a piece of propaganda wheeled out by the Republicans ONLY to legitimize war. We knew before our "president" began to roll in the troops, that HE WOULD ROLL IN THE TROOPS. WE KNEW IT. YOU AND ME. Right here. We knew it. This ain't freeper-fairytaleland. We don't, historically, view such things with naivete or without skepticism. We don't swallow spoon-fed MSM shit. We use our critical thinking lefto-heads. WE KNOW MANURE AT THE FIRST WHIFF OF IT. We fucking get it.

And that's the first--but certainly not the only--reason I do not support Hillary Clinton. When Barack Obama spoke out against the war WHILE IN THE MIDST OF A CAMPAIGN at a time when to do so took actual political courage, he acted with the rarest sort of conscience and political courage. At the time you and I were clandestinely freeway blogging or putting up posters of dissent or establishing underground networks of minor or even token resistance or communing here to lament what we all knew was coming, Barack Obama was taking a vocal public stance. He was facing down the climate of fear in our country, more so than I did and perhaps more than you did, too.

Now, I do not pretend to know what he would have done had the IWR come across his desk as a senator. I suspect I know--I do not know for sure. But I do know what Clinton did. I do know whose back she had. Her own. I do know she knew the IWR was a war resolution, because you and I knew that and she's an amazingly smart person. You and I knew the war was a ruse, that it was an exercise in neo-con self-interest, that the Cheney and his ideologues were force-feeding the public dogshit, that the war actually would be a disaster, that civilians whose only crime was to be subjected to Saddam's rule would pay with their lives in this war. We knew all that. She knew all that. If she didn't, then she's got no business being in the White House. If she did, but calculated her political fortunes nonetheless, then she has no business being in the White House.

John Kerry at least fully renounced his vote, which would be a start for Clinton. But in the end, it wouldn't change the fact that this is the first time we have a viable candidate this late in the process who offered up, publicly, WHAT YOU AND I KNEW BEFORE THE WAR BEGAN and who did so before the war began. There's no finessing, explaining, apologizing that can change that for Clinton. In the end it's about policy, record, leadership, judgment, decision-making ability, courage, conscience, and, finally now, accountability.

Progressives have something we haven't had before this presidential election: a choice on this issue. I chose the candidate who did not vote "yea" on the IRW. Because we all knew.
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ClassWarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-07-08 10:47 AM
Response to Original message
1. A viable candidate who stood with US against the invasion.
Versus a co-signer of Bush/Cheney**'s Blank Check for Invasion.

That's an easy choice.

NGU.


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Maribelle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-07-08 12:22 PM
Response to Reply #1
28. Obama gave one speech in which he cloned what others had said, even what Hillary said. Then he...
fell silent. Obama made that speech on that day in that place when he was playing both sides, as he did far too often.

On June 11, 2002, Obama's vote sparked a confrontation after he joined Republicans to block Democrats trying to override a veto by GOP Gov. George Ryan of a $2-million allotment for the west Chicago child welfare office.

Shortly afterward, Obama chastised Republicans for their "sanctimony" in claiming that only they had the mettle to make tough choices in a tight budget year. And he called for "responsible budgeting."

A fellow Democrat suddenly seethed with anger. "You got a lot of nerve to talk about being responsible," said Sen. Rickey Hendon, accusing Obama of voting to close the child welfare office.

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uberblonde Donating Member (993 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-07-08 10:48 AM
Response to Original message
2. Oh, horsefeathers.
I'm supposed to believe that Obama would have voted against the war when it wasn't politically viable? Yeah, just like he does with everything else: "Present."
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AnarchoFreeThinker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-07-08 10:50 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. you're only supposed to believe that Clinton did. that's enough.
and, by the way, you did know, too--right?
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ClassWarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-07-08 10:50 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. Yeah, why decide based on their actual records...
Edited on Mon Apr-07-08 10:51 AM by ClassWarrior
...when you have the liberating magic of speculation?

:eyes:

NGU.


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40ozDonkey Donating Member (730 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-07-08 10:55 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. C'mon everybody, let's get on her straight-talk express!
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AnarchoFreeThinker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-07-08 10:55 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. roger that, CW
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MethuenProgressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-07-08 11:05 AM
Response to Reply #2
11. He made one small speech at one small rally - and fell silent. Until he said he didn't know...
..how he would've voted, and that's there's no difference between his position on the Iraq War and George W. Bush's.
It's astonishing he's won one vote for President, let alone more than one.
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ClassWarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-07-08 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #11
15. That's better than none.
Now which candidate showed ABSOLUTELY NO OPPOSITION to the Blank Check for Invasion till it became a political liability?... Hmmm?...

NGU.


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MethuenProgressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-07-08 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #15
18. Not Hillary. You parrot an absurd misconception. A dozen parrots do not equal one fact.
"A vote for it is not a vote to rush to war; it is a vote that puts awesome responsibility in the hands of our President and we say to him - use these powers wisely and as a last resort." - HRC

"ABSOLUTELY NO OPPOSITION to the Blank Check for Invasion"?
Want a cracker?
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ClassWarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-07-08 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #18
21. So you're saying that all she has is a speech in 2002? And one she gave...
Edited on Mon Apr-07-08 11:31 AM by ClassWarrior
...in conjunction with her co-signing Bush/Cheney**'s Blank Check for Invasion to boot?

:rofl:

NGU.


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uberblonde Donating Member (993 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-07-08 06:53 PM
Response to Reply #15
31. Which candidate said one thing....
And did another? Hint: One person pretended to oppose the war, but kept voting to fund it!

I call bullshit.
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crankychatter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-07-08 10:51 AM
Response to Original message
5. She Parroted the GOP Party line verbatim and her Iran Greenlight is PROOF
she's lying and hasn't changed ONE IOTA
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MethuenProgressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-07-08 11:09 AM
Response to Reply #5
12. What a silly, uninformed, and easily disproved, thing to say.
"A vote for it is not a vote to rush to war; it is a vote that puts awesome responsibility in the hands of our President and we say to him - use these powers wisely and as a last resort." HRC, floor speech, AUF.
That's "parroting the GOP Party line verbatim"?
You do know that "GOP" is the Republican Party, right?
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crankychatter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-07-08 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #12
14. it's a documented fact
I've seen your posts

how sad you care more for the status quo of war profiteers funding campaigns than the expansion of the Party

do you have stock in halluburton?

you're not an idiot... so what drives you?
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MethuenProgressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-07-08 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #14
17. No fact documents your absurd fantasy. You are helping McCain by giving Bush a pass on Iraq,
Please, become better informed. Or at least, informed.
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crankychatter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-07-08 11:26 AM
Response to Reply #17
19. as documented only in 07 Clinton gave Bush the pass on Iran in Advance
nobody helps Bush more than YOUR candidate
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MethuenProgressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-07-08 11:32 AM
Response to Reply #19
22. That proves how underinformed you are.
No wonder you support Obama.
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Bensthename Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-07-08 10:58 AM
Response to Original message
8. Reason for Hillary's vote = Polls showed 60+% were in favor for the war at the time..
Edited on Mon Apr-07-08 10:58 AM by Bensthename
A political gamble that did not pan out for her.
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MethuenProgressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-07-08 10:59 AM
Response to Original message
9. Bush violated the AUF, and started the war with powers he already had.
Hillary did not start the Iraq War.
Why do you want to give George W. Bush a pass on Iraq?
Do you think it will help McCain?
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AnarchoFreeThinker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-07-08 11:02 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. obfuscation. Just tell me you didn't know. That'll satisfy me.
Edited on Mon Apr-07-08 11:02 AM by dmsRoar
ed for typo
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crankychatter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-07-08 11:28 AM
Response to Reply #9
20. The bill stated "authorization to use military force"
what part of that do YOU not understand?
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AnarchoFreeThinker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-07-08 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #20
29. we all understood. even her.
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BenDavid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-07-08 11:11 AM
Response to Original message
13. "In a startling moment at a campaign stop, Hillary described herself
and McCain as stalwarts in the experience game and boiled down Obama's credentials to "a speech in 2002".
-- Ann Davidow (D-Panties-in-a-wad) avid Obama backer

Maybe her bigger point is: Where was Obama's big anti-war speech in 2003? Where was Obama's big anti-war speech in 2004, at Kerry's convention? Where was Obama's big anti-war speech in 2005? Where was Obama's big anti-war speech in 2006? Where was Obama's anti-war filibuster in 2007? Was stopping the war worth standing up, Barack?

Perhaps She was asking, "If he's got more than a 2002 speech - where is it?"


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ClassWarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-07-08 11:40 AM
Response to Reply #13
25. Well, she has less than a 2002 speech. Much less.
If she was deceived into supporting the Blank Check for Invasion, where were her big anti-war speeches? Why hasn't she been with us out on the Ellipse, in the freezing cold and the sticky heat, year after year after year?

NGU.


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crankychatter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-07-08 11:22 AM
Response to Original message
16. a couple of add-ons
Edited on Mon Apr-07-08 11:25 AM by crankychatter
Pro-War - Pro-Torture - Pro-War Crimes - Anti-Constitution

The rhetoric and ameliorative votes are precisely this; pandering and disingenous political maneuvering.

Hillary Clinton voted for Bush’s USA Patriot Act, opposed by such radicals as THE NATIONAL LIBRARY ASSOCIATION.

Hillary Clinton voted to reauthorize Bush’s USA Patriot Act - Against the Will of MOST OF HER CONSTITUENTS.

Hillary Clinton supported Israel’s massive military assault on the civilian infrastructure of Lebanon and the Gaza Strip which took the lives of over 1,000 civilians, half of whom were children.

Israeli Officers were REVOLTED by their orders to TARGET CIVILIANS and have stated so openly.

Clinton's vote to classify the Iranian Guard as a "terrorist organization" gave Bush the Green Light to attack Iran at will, without going back to Congress. This is not old news. It's more of the same.

Clinton opposes International Ban on LandMines that kill and mutilate civilians for decades after a war.

She is one of the most vocal critics of the International Court of Justice for its landmark 2004 advisory ruling that the Fourth Geneva Conventions on the Laws of War is legally binding on all signatory nations

She was asked about the "ticking time bomb" scenario, in which you've captured the terrorist and don't have time for a normal interrogation, and said that there is a place for what she called "severity," in a conversation that included mentioning water-boarding, hypothermia, and other techniques commonly described as torture.

"I have said that those are very rare but if they occur there has to be some lawful authority for pursuing that," she responded. "Again, I think the President has to take responsibility. There has to be some check and balance, some reporting. I don't mind if it's reporting in a top secret context. But that shouldn't be the tail that wags the dog, that should be the exception to the rule."

Asked again about these methods, she said:

"In those instances where we have sufficient basis to believe that there is something imminent, yeah, but then we've got to have a check and balance.""

Hillary Clinton voted against the Feinstein-Leahy amendment restricting U.S. exports of cluster bombs to countries that use them against civilian-populated areas

Cluster Bombs injure 98% Civilians - Most are children that find undetonated munitions and play with them

These are her advisors:

Madeleine Albright, she was the main force behind the Iraq sanctions that killed more than 400,000 Iraqi civilians.

General Wesley Clark, he was the one who ran the bombing of Serbia in the former Yugoslavia, came out and publicly said that he was going after civilian targets, like electrical plants, like the TV station there.

Richard Holbrooke, in the Carter administration he was the one who oversaw the shipment of weapons to the Indonesian military as they were invading—illegally invading East Timor and killing a third of the population there, and he was the one who kept the UN Security Council from enforcing its resolution against that invasion.

Strobe Talbott, he was the one who, during the Clinton administration, oversaw Russia policy, a backing of Yeltsin, which resulted in turning over the national wealth to the oligarchs and a drop in life expectancy in much of Russia of about fifteen years—massive, massive death.

And you have various backers of the Iraq invasion and occupation and the recent escalation, people like General Jack Keane, Michael O’Hanlon and others.
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AnarchoFreeThinker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-07-08 11:37 AM
Response to Reply #16
24. excellent
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cascadiance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-07-08 11:33 AM
Response to Original message
23. Even if you excuse this vote, which I don't, you CANNOT excuse her Iran vote...
The Iran vote that she voted the SAME way on a very SIMILAR bill when you have to KNOW this president will want to use it in the SAME way, is INEXCUSABLE!

You know Bush's twisting of "Fool me once,... Fool me twice?..."

I prefer The Who's rendition of "WON'T GET FOOLED AGAIN!!!!"

We don't need a new boss that's the same as the old boss again!
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MethuenProgressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-07-08 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #23
26. On K/L? Which was identical to Obama's "Iran Counter-Proliferation Act of 2007"
Go Google.
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wowimthere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-07-08 12:13 PM
Response to Original message
27. it's too late. Her political calculations on War are now well known... and
I can't vote for a candidate who was dumb enough to use that vote to look like a forceful future commander in chief. Lives were lost because of it. Those 4000 men and women who lost their lives in this illegal occupation can't take advantage of the healthcare she advocates. People signed up for this war because of 9/11 and she threw salt on the wound. I can hardly understand how people have forgotten about this.

At best in the general election she is John Kerry Part II.
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WillYourVoteBCounted Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-07-08 02:19 PM
Response to Original message
30. New poll shows she is LEAST TRUSTED by NC Voters
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