Hillary Clinton.... her Presidential campaign has set the women's movement back 40 years

[JayFredMuggs]

Here you are, Hillary, a woman who grew up in an upper middle class Republican family, Goldwater supporter in college, went to one of the most exclusive women's colleges in America, then on to Yale Law, one of the best Law schools in America.........when did you ever have to prove yourself? What are your lifetime accomplishments? Sitting on committees? Making speeches? Staying married to the most famous cheating husband in America?

Really now, Hillary supporters, don't you yourselves know some women who have risen from adversity, some people who have actually run a company, some women who have shown leadership in their field? Is the ONLY woman in America who deserves the Democratic nomination this same privileged Goldwater supporter college woman who never went to war, herself, (as thousands of others did in Viet Nam, Desert Storm). This Hillary woman is the ONLY one who deserves to be nominated for President?

Women of America should find someone better than a person who had it all lined up for her a few months ago, and is now barely hanging on so that she can prove she's not a quitter, when she's blown so many chances to unite the nation behind her.

I'm sorry, but I have met many women, brave women, leaders, people with influence, whom I respect a lot more than this opportunist running for President, who is trying now to get my support and vote.

Why Hillary, why does SHE deserve to be President, when there are so many fine women leaders in America? City Mayors, Governors, Police Chiefs, School Superintendents, College Presidents, Senators and Representatives with years and years of accomplishments, Career Military women, statespersons and career diplomats,ministers, doctors, researchers, judges. I'm talking here about WOMEN ONLY!


If Hillary is the BEST in American women, in 2008, we are setting our sites for women in America much too low!

In short, and in summary, a woman doesn't have to find success in America ONLY by getting it on her husband's coat-tails!

Women in 1960 might have thought that that was the ONLY way, but today we have hundreds of thousands of successful women who made it ALL ON THEIR OWN ABILITIES! I respect THEM more than I could EVER respect Hillary Clinton.

[AX10]

1. Only in the minds of extreme left wingers is this so.

[JayFredMuggs]

3. So show me Hillary's accomplishments other than being a good mother and wife...

after graduating Yale Law School. Is that enough to make her the leader of America?

[kid a]

9. to be fair: "being a good mother and wife" is an accomplishment in and of itself. nt

[Cha]

62. She should have run on that then and

not her lies and the lies they tell constantly about Obama.

[PoliticalAmazon]

68. A good mother and wife wouldn't lie about being under sniper fire to get political points. n/t

[JayFredMuggs]

103. RIGHT ON! Good mother's don't lie and ask their adult daughters to

smooth over their lies with more bull crap!

[Zachstar]

18. It is so sad, MANY other great women leaders could have been given support and WON

Many great women who worked hard in government while Clinton was voting against cluster bomb near noncombatants ban.

Many brave women who served in the armed forces helping to defend this country while Clinton voted for war.

etc...

[LisaL]

25. Oh give me a freaking break.

This so ludicrous. If there are many women who could have been given support, what stops them from running?
Maybe they've seen the way Hillary was treated by people just like DUbamas.

[Zachstar]

47. Wait what?

How did they see the way Clinton was supposedly treated?

Did they hop on a time machine and travel to 2008?

Your point is crap.

[IndyHatedByBothSides]

114. Or maybe these women saw...

...how Nancy Pelosi was treated by Clinton's fundraising goons.

[PoliticalAmazon]

71. ITA. Hillary has shit on the chances of women being elected in the future. n/t

[DemVet]

136. Yes. Her accomplishments outweigh Obama's by a significant amount.

[anonymous171]

32. lol. I didn't even have to look at the "author" column to know who wrote this.

lol

[Sparkly]

88. I'm an extreme left winger and I think it's in the minds of right wingers

and those who adopt their scripts when it's convenient.

[TheWraith]

96. Excuse me?

Because the last time that I was told that only “extreme left wingers” believed something, it was coming out of the mouth of a freeper. By a lot of standards we’re all “extreme left wingers” here, and I suspect that if we were talking about a Republican woman with Hillary’s record trying to parley it into a presidential run, the chorus here would be unanimous in screaming that she was reenforcing every negative sterotype about powerful women.

[chascarrillo]

147. Yes, I realize that we left-wingers scare the Clinton supporters so.

[Zhade]

167. Like you have ANY credibility with even moderate liberals!

Here's a tip: extreme left-wingers means Maoists and Stalinists. Try to learn some basic political ideology sometime.

[C_U_L8R]

2. Blaming her own failures on sexism

shames us all

[northzax]

4. yes, you are right

it's not like Hillary graduated from Yale Law School, was ranked in the top fifty most influential lawyers in America by the age of 35, and was elected to the Senate twice from a fairly large, diverse state.

I mean what has Michelle Obama done for the feminist movement? she's a harvard trained lawyer who couldn't hack the lawfirm route and took a nice, cushy corporate job, at which she was promoted at roughly the same speed as her husband rose in political power. And then when it got inconvenient for her husband to have her keep working, she quit, to look like a nice wife and mother. now that' feminism!

[GarbagemanLB]

7. Hillary worked with the union-busting Wal-Mart Corporation, then ran for U.S. senate in a LIBERAL st

ate based solely upon the fact that she was married to Bill. What a role model!

[northzax]

40. we're Democrats, right?

therefore basically liberals? how does winning a senate seat in a 'mostly liberal' state hurt again? Isn't that, well, kinda the point?

and you don't really think much of the people of New York, do you? they elected her, by large margins, twice. you think they're a bunch of hicks who can't make decisions for themselves? how about Ohio, California, New Jersey, Nevada, Massachusetts? all illiterate hicks who simply vote for who they are told?

[TheWraith]

100. No offense, but she won those elections against two grade-A morons.

Rick Lazio in 2000, who was basically a low-rent Tucker Carlson, and somebody in 2006 whose name I can’t even remember, who was a sacrificial lamb. Not difficult elections at all.

[northzax]

135. so?

there are twenty million people in new York state, and not one decent politician wanted to run against her?

[TheWraith]

159. Can you name a prominant and popular New York State Republican?

Answer: there really aren't any other than Rudy Giuliani, who has a striking ability to lose elections. My point being, the NY Senate seat is effectively safe: if you have the Dem nomination for it, it's hard to lose.

[Whisp]

56. yes, being a wife and mother is 'feminism' as well.

where the fuck do you get off defining Anything for women. and why the fuck does 'success' or 'feminism' have to do so much with the corporate man world.

I know a lot of women who aren't hi powered execs or movers and shakers in the business or political world that I would Rather Have running the Country than some pantsuit that acts like a man!

how dare you demean the work of wives and mothers like it doesn't count for something important?

If you want to see a strike that brings down the whole ship, mothers, wives and volunteers striking would make you shit your pants.

[northzax]

60. without a doubt

as long as it was a choice, being a stay at home mother is a feminist choice. I have never said differently. My point is that if the OP says that Hillary has set back 'feminism by 40 years' by using that to run for President, then Michelle Obama has set it back another 15 (since she's fifteen years younger) by choosing that to help her husband run for President. We should be equal opportunity complainers, don't you think?

[Whisp]

64. I'm not in agreement with the 40 year set back said in the OP.

but Hillary does piss all for the movement going forward with her dirty old white establishment man tactics when it suits her, like her IWR, or pulling out the tears and 'concern' when it's convenient to reel in her suckers.

[northzax]

67. see, I would argue that you are being sexist here

she's a woman running a campaign the way men have traditionally run. And you think that's wrong. I think that having her run a campaign like men have in the past is just how it works. Why can't women play hardball in your world? Why can't they use the same strategies as men? Isn't that a feminist choice as well?

[Whisp]

79. a woman who votes for war and cluster bombs is no damn feminist

in my eyes.
If she wants to play that hardball game like the boys, let her at it, but she doesn't fool me for one second.

[northzax]

no, that's pacifism, not feminism

kind of a difference.

[Whisp]

85. let it be that way for you. I have my own ideas. nt

[JuniperLea]

150. "dirty old white establishment man tactics"

I think you nailed why her campaign isn't as strong as it should be...

[leftynyc]

137. EXTREMELY WELL SAID

I thought I was the only one taken aback by reading some online man who gets to decide what damage (none) has been done to feminism by Sen Clinton.

[nichomachus]

143. Then, I will definitely not vote for Michelle for president. Thanks for pointing that out. n/t

[northzax]

145. but you'll vote for the man

who let his wife be used as a chip to make money at the Chicago Hospital System in exchange for an earmark, who had his wife buy property with a fixer's wife so no one would notice, who would leave his wife alone with two small children while he takes a job in another city?

ok.

[nichomachus]

146. I will vote for the Democratic nominee, yes.

My father left my mother alone with two small children when he took a job in another city. Are you saying my father is a bad person or that there is something wrong with my mother?

[NashVegas]

5. When Will Barack Obama Pull The Troops Out of Iraq?

[anamandujano]

129. As soon as he finds a good place to put them in Pakistan.

It's all there on his website, unless he scrubbed it.

[L0oniX]

6. She's no Margaret Thatcher, that's for sure.

[Hepburn]

8. Heya, Mugs....

...good OP...K&R....and that is a big PS to ya! <wink> :hi:

[JayFredMuggs]

24. Thanks, there Hepburn!

Speaking of great women who have accomplished much in influencing Americans, you have done a superb job, from MY point of view!

I'd vote for someone like YOU over Hillary any day!

[Hepburn]

33. Oh, baby.....

....mega smoochies!!!! :loveya:

Thanks, that was a very nice compliment!

[Duder]

10. Clinton's campaign

Andrea Mitchell: Clinton's campaign, "right now, is not the greatest example of why women should rule the world."
http://mediamatters.org/items/200804070008?f=h_latest

[LittleClarkie]

11. It has been said that her plan for universal health care set it back several years

It would seem that setting things back is rather her forte.

[OzarkDem]

15. Said by Republicans

No, it helped get the dialogue started. It just took a lot more people losing their insurance coverage to realize she was right.

[LittleClarkie]

23. Why would Republicans want a universal health plan?

It seems to me it was said by those who'd like to see a universal health plan come about.

They could have been less secretive when they drew up the plan. They could have let Congress in on the deal. They could have negotiated and been willing to be flexible to get SOMETHING passed rather than insisting on the entire plan, her way or the highway.

[JayFredMuggs]

21. I had not thought about that. .... very true, her process and her plan

both flawed from the start.......and some single parent uninsured women in America today want to give her another chance to fail?

Gee, how generous of them ! I'd rather see success from a true community organizer than another White House leadership failure.

[OzarkDem]

12. Black men got the vote 51 years before women

Sexism is far more persistent than racism, and much more difficult to overcome.

[Hepburn]

16. Oh, fucking please.........!!!!

When were women considered 3/5 of a person or sold into slavery and transported on slave ships?

GMAFB.....!

Your comparison is total bullshit!

[northzax]

36. um, well, the entire time that anyone was

you know that many black people are female, right? roughly half of them? Heard of that Harriet Tubman?

[JuniperLea]

153. Black women were oppressed far longer than anyone else...

All women were grouped together in this regard.

[OzarkDem]

42. When they were black?

Women refers to women of all races.

[northzax]

45. no, silly

'women' obviously refers to white women black women are simply black, not women. didn't you get the memo?

[housewolf]

self-delete, wrong post

[Beaverhausen]

55. in case you've missed this

there are places right in this country where women are still treated like slaves, with no rights.

http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5gvw57zAsRF4qssp_yxrcKYcNOdAw

[OzarkDem]

57. Very true

No outrage from Obama supporters, tho.

[housewolf]

81. Ummm... well... when black men were considered to be 3/5 of a person

women (black, white, native american and anything else) were not considered to be a person at all re: voting until the 20th century...

and as for women being sold into slavery... that's happening this very day. Do some research on "sex slavery" and you'll find that women are being taken captive, transported to other places and confined in houses of prostitution. It's STILL going on... even in this country

[JuniperLea]

152. Very well said, housewolf!

:applause:

:yourock:

[JuniperLea]

151. No, it isn't...

Woman weren't able to own property either. You can see it in action right here on DU... a racist comment gets the smackdown a lot faster and harder than a sexist comment... same goes for advertising... for one day count how many racist ads you see and how many sexist ads you see... unless that chick riding the bull is in black-face next time, you won't find any racism. Women answered to the white man a hell of a lot longer than black people did. Check out all the good-ol'-boys clubs around the country... most let black men become members before they allowed women to become members.

You might consider sticking to the time-line proposed by a post... no one of any color was sold into slavery during the time black MEN got the vote. White women were only put on slave and prison ships by the Europeans, so it doesn't count in America. Black WOMEN were for a very long time, a lot longer than their male counterparts, the most oppressed people in America.

[loveangelc]

17. Um...african american men were not allowed to vote until the 1960s.

[LisaL]

26. Don't know much about US history, do you?

[JayFredMuggs]

37. Don't know much about poll taxes and reading requirements, do you?

Google Poll Tax

Google Reading requirements

When I registered to vote at 21 years of age, (first time I was allowed to register, at the town hall, not anywhere else, had to go to the town hall)... I had to prove I could read from a law book... and Iwas white, and male, and at that time a college senior.

[JuniperLea]

156. And this has what to do with the conversation? eom

[loveangelc]

54. yes, I do, but apparently you don't. Yes, they were "officially" given that right.

but they could not vote because of such things as the grandfather clauses, jim crow laws etc set up to prevent them from voting. Duh. Most african americans did not earn the right to vote until the passage of the Voting Rights Act of 1965.

[JuniperLea]

158. No, they were given the right in 1870

There are still stupid things keeping Blacks from voting TODAY... but they were given the Constitutional right to vote in February 1870, by way of the 15th Amendment.

[Hugabear]

94. Well then, I guess we can scrap that little Voting Rights Act

Don't need it, do we?

[Starbucks Anarchist]

118. *Crickets*

[JuniperLea]

155. Oh dear... better to remain silent and thought a fool...

The 15th Amendment (February 3, 1870) to the Constitution granted African American MEN the right to vote by declaring that the "right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any state on account of race, color, or previous condition of servitude."

Women of all color got the vote in August of 1920.

[GarbagemanLB]

19. This is a stupid argument, but if you want to go that route: Please show where women were lynched an

d were enslaved in American history?

[LisaL]

28. Married women were considered property of their husbands.

[GarbagemanLB]

30. Still waiting on proof they were lynched or chained and treated as animals...

[northzax]

43. here's a reading list for you

Feminist Sexual Ethics Project: Slavery in the U.S. I suggest you read up on the reality that women were slaves, too. and you will note that the 15th Amendment gave the right to vote to black MEN, not women.

[OzarkDem]

58. In some places they still are

http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSN0730647220080408

[housewolf]

90. There is sex slavery going on today - even in America

women and girls confined involuntarily in brothels

[JuniperLea]

154. You want to stick to the time-line being discussed?

Black men were able to vote and own land far sooner than women of any color.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

20. And how many times were they allowed to vote after that?

[JayFredMuggs]

35. I think you have that backwards........

By YOUR argument, women should have waited 51 more years to be a front-runner in the Democratic process........

But NO.........Hillary deserves it BEFORE black folks, yeah I got your point, "no black need apply", and if they do, let's make sure a white woman who is known to all but never did anything should trump a man who actually worked at a paying job for a living since college graduation, make sure SHE beats him out!

Yeah, you make such sense.

[Qanisqineq]

125. how did you get THAT out of what OzardDem said?

You are really grasping at straws if you think the poster said?

And where do you get that she didn't do anything since college? Do a little research before you spout off bullshit.

You don't make any sense.

[LittleClarkie]

59. Do we really want to get into dueling oppression?

My group was more oppressed than your group?

This post diminishes the struggle of the A.A. by comparing it with the struggle of women, as if both were not equally bad.

[Recursion]

162. Err... 1964 was well after 1919

I'm not sure when you're imagining black people were allowed to actually vote.

[durrrty libby]

13. Nah, only in the feeble minds of misogynists and BOSniffers

Those assholes have set back race relations and democracy forty years

[JayFredMuggs]

44. Care to explain or expand upon your comments? or

Or do you just throw your hate bomb and leave without being adult enough to make a coherent point?

[Texasgal]

14. As an Obama supporter

I cannot agree with you on this.

Just running for POTUS is a HUGE accomplishment!

She is also a successful member of the senate which she has served well.

I prefer Obama... but I cannot and WILL not agree that she has set the Womens movement back.

[GoesTo11]

27. Key question

Say Obama wins, and in 2016 there is another female candidate, maybe Napolitano or whoever else is really viable then. Will she have an easier time running a a result of HC's campaign? You could say no, because people would just say "we had a female candidate before and she didn't work out." Seems much more likely that her path would be easier because there just wouldn't be that much interest in the whole gender thing. Who will want to keep talking about it? What else is there to say? Maybe she'll be able to just focus on the campaign. That's how it works for trailblazers in other settings.

[Texasgal]

34. I don't believe she has been a trailblazer

for the womens movement either..

I just simply do not think she has somehow set women back 40 years... sorry... I just don't.

I have plenty of OTHER things I don't like about Hillary, this just isn't one of them. :shrug:

[JayFredMuggs]

39. So you are saying, (and I probably agree with you) that the biggest accomplishment for Hillary..

is that she unsuccessfully RAN for President?

Yeah, I'd have to agree with that!

Biggest lifetime accomplishment! WOW.......Hillary Clinton, meet Harold Stassen!

[JayFredMuggs]

29. Several women have run for Senate and won

None other than Hillary were First Lady when they did so, running in a predominantly Democratic state against a Republican nobody.

If she had run in FL, AR, or maybe CO..........then THAT would have been a real accomplishment.

As for what bills Hillary has launched and/or supported in her seven years....there's 20, 16 of them what is called "ceremonial".

Four of five bills in seven years? Accomplishment?

Oh yes, she's still a former First Lady, far exceeding Barbara Bush in her last few years of accomplishments. I guess that's SOMETHING!

But we have lots of women Senators who have accomplished much more

Barbara Boxer
Diane Feinstein
just to mention two!

[Texasgal]

31. Do you really think

she has set the womens movement back?

[JayFredMuggs]

51. Yes, I really think those who support her who claim that sexism is the problem

are setting the standard of equality back 40 years.......supporting a woman who has virtually done NOTHING her entire professional career except ride the coat-tails of her dear adulterous husband who happened to be the most powerful man in the world.

If she had LEFT HIM, and risen to be NY Senator, if she had passed significant women's rights legislation, if she had done ANYTHING OTHER THAN GIVE SPEECHES....she might have some gravitas......but she is pure symbol... no substance.......and a poor manager of her own national campaign, when so many other women are fine managers.

Why Hillary, why does SHE deserve to be President, when there are so many fine women leaders in America? City Mayors, Governors, Police Chiefs, School Superintendents, College Presidents, Senators and Representatives with years and years of accomplishments, Career Military women, statespersons and career diplomats,ministers, doctors, researchers, lawyers. I'm talking here about WOMEN ONLY!

Why Hillary?

[JayFredMuggs]

70. This post above... this is what I am talking about///

Hillary supporters, I'm glad you are offended by this...but really... did you count the accomplishments of this woman BEFORE you got on her bandwagon, or was it her gender and fame alone that got you involved?

She won two easy elections, given her name and where she ran and what she represented.

She won a few primaries for the same reason, and made an horrific mess of her campaign by her own speeches, lies and mis-statements.

So what happened to this woman? Did she not have the stuff to close the deal? Do you blame this all on sexism?

Or can you honestly admit that there are braver, more accomplished women in America who probably deserve this Presidency more than someone with the right last name?

[Texasgal]

77. You ask why??

Good question.

Why aren't there any OTHER perfectly qualified women running for POTUS? Maybe it's because women in general have to prove themselves so much more, as demonstrated in your post.



Why is it that a Women must prove themselves so much more? What other MALE candidate have we asked these questions of? Why isn't any MAN being asked these questions?

So, for Hillary to prove herself viable she would have had to do all these things that you have asked of her but unwilling to ask MALE candidates?

I will say again.. I do not agree with you. I do not believe that she has set women back 40 years. I have plenty.. trust me..PLENTY of reasons why I do not support her... but this ain't one one of them. In fact... I find it pretty disgusting.

[GoesTo11]

48. Running for Pres is different

HC is not a self-made politician, and she has made mistakes in this campaign, But the only other female candidates I can remember are Shirley Chisolm (impressive, but wasn't ever expected to win), Elizabeth Dole (turned out to be kind of a joke), and as VP Geraldine Ferraro (who was not in charge of the campaign the way HC is). So, she has blazed a trail for people to see a woman running, to see that it's possible and can be quite competitive. She was commanding in many of the debates. She also blazed a trail showing what kind of problems a serious female candidate faces, so the next candidate will know more about what to expect. Is this the same as accomplishing what Barbara Boxer or others have done in their longer senate careers? No, of course it's different, but it still matters and I think it will make more difference for future female candidates. She certainly had a leg up from being first lady, but this wasn't just a matter of a queen inheriting the king's throne. She worked through two senate elections and worked to gain her own power base through her work in the senate. Like her or not, you gotta give her props.

[dansolo]

78. Aren't you forgetting Carol Mosely Braun?

She also ran for President in 2004. I wonder why she didn't get much support from all those women who are supporting Hillary now.

[GoesTo11]

80. D'oh,

Of course. I was afraid I forgot someone, and this was just from the last election. Thanks for the correction.

[northzax]

52. wait, Barbara Boxer and Dianne Feinsteinn?

the two liberal senators from the most liberal state? that doesn't count, remember?

or did you mean the Dianne Feinstein who is worth about $100m in her own right, all of it coming from her husbands? oh right, same person. Or the Barbara Boxer worth about $5m, all from her husband? right, same person. the one who took over her husband's initial political campaign and ran herself? who was bankrolled by him early on?

if that doesn't take away from their accomplishments, why does it take away from Hillary's?

[JayFredMuggs]

61. Please remind me again.........which "accomplishments" are Hillary's???

Simple question.......perhaps you have a simple answer?

[northzax]

65. ok, let's see

since you're ignoring everything else.

Hillary Clinton has been elected to the US Senate twice. If you don't think this is an accomplishment, please let us know how many times you have been elected to the US Senate, preferably from the second largest state in the country.

Hillary Clinton has won primary races in several large, diverse states. Ohio ring a bell? California (you know, the same state that elected Senators Feinsteinn and Boxer you referenced?) and others. No other woman in US history has won even ONE primary. in any party. but, since you think this isn't a big deal, please let us know how many primary contests you have won.

seriously, you get this, right? Hillary Clinton is the only woman in the history of New York State to be elected as US Senator. Since New York was one of the original 13 states, there's a pretty long history there. Still, other women have been Senators, not enough, but some, so that's obviously not such a big deal. But then we take the winning of a primary. no woman has ever done that. this not count at all for you?

[Whisp]

104. I think he meant accomplished for the people, not for herself.

winning campaigns surely are accomplishments, but what did she DO with that win is the question.
sounds pretty thin to me.

[JayFredMuggs]

106. Well stated and completely

True

What did Hillary do for the REST of Americans, besides Hillary?

[northzax]

144. she's a senator

what has any senator actually done that affects your life a whole lot?

[Whisp]

160. she is campaigning like this is her first office.

promising all these great and wonderful things when she already had the chance - '35 experience years' of chance and apparently did fuck all.

undoing all the fucked up shit she had part in like NAFTA. Iraq, etc.
what a platform - vote for me because I can now undo my mistakes. really. really I will this time.

feh.

[AtomicKitten]

22. The Clintons have used the "isms" as a political tool.

And that bullshit sends all kinds of causes back decades.

[PoliticalAmazon]

166. ITA. It also lessens the heinous meaning of the word to use it so cheaply. n/t

[okasha]

38. I don't think so.

Anger is a great motivator of movements, and the misogyny and sexism evident in the current campaign have made a lot of women angry. Very angry.

[Beaverhausen]

53. Good point. I think the movement is now energized more than before

[PoliticalAmazon]

73. People will remember Hillary's Rovian performance long after Hillary...

...is pimping the power she got from running and making millions of it. After all, she has Bill Clinton to show her how to do it.

[Onlooker]

41. You must be joking

I support Obama, but Clinton has exposed the misogyny and sexism on both the left and the right and in that way has laid the groundwork for the women's movement in the future. The women's movement has been politcally moribund since the late 1970s, but Clinton has helped reignite it, and it will crush your kind of sexist ignorance. You really don't get what's going on.

[GrandmaJones7]

46. Well put. The OP is a delusional Obamabot. NTXT.

[tyedyeto]

49. You know what would endear me to her?

Making some sort of statement about this.... Staying married to the most famous cheating husband in America? And not today but years ago. By golly, she stood by her man when the country heard all about the Blow Job, but shit, how many women would stand by totally silent when all the dirty laundry is aired? Not this one.... and yes, I aired mine in a very public way.

Hillary is NO feminist when it boils down to the public relations side of her marriage.

I have always felt that what happened with the 'blue dress stain' or however you want to call it, is a matter that SHOULD have never been brought before the public eye, but since it was, yes, the spouse should have made some sort of comment. Since she didn't, I'll just call her The Enabler.

And an Enabler is what she'll be if she is nominated and elected President.

[MannyGoldstein]

50. Actually, I Think It's Helped The 'Women's Movement'

Even though I find both Clintons to be appalling, I think that it's moved things forward - it's now more imaginable than it was before.

[Madam Mossfern]

63. How has it helped the women's movement?

Is it really further now than it was before? I don't see myself being treated any differently since she began her campaign.

[bigtree]

66. what would you know about any 'women's movement'?

and, why should they care what you think about them?

I personally find your effort to separate Clinton from her gender, both, condescending and clueless. Why don't you ask the women who support her how they feel about the 'women's movement'?

[JayFredMuggs]

74. I did...and I don't care what you think of me

I have started a thread with my own opinions, yours are different, but you chose to insult me, rather than address the issue of which women in America are true leaders, given the disaster Hillary's campaign has turned into.

Care to try again at giving me some substantive answers, or are you offended by the mere fact that I question Hillary's presumption that she is the BEST woman to be our 2008 Presidential candidate.

In all honesty, I would have voted for Hillary, (and may have to if racism prevails over accomplishment in the Democratic party), but I would be much more comfortable if Hillary had

1) run a clean and honest campaign, and
2) had an impressive resume to run upon.

[bigtree]

82. what is there to say? I don't think you can competently judge the impact or effect of her candidacy

. . . by ignoring the opinion and 'movement' of the millions of women who have already voted for Clinton.

Your dismissal of her 'resume' is an amazing condescension. And, you imply that she isn't the 'best woman' to be our candidate , but ignore the fact that she was the ONLY major candidate (measured by support) who bothered to run . . . as if that had some kind of significant effect on anyone's 'movement'.

You have a perfect right to your opinion, I just don't see how it would have any importance at all, except to those who share your narrow view of Hillary Clinton's life, record, and experience.

[JayFredMuggs]

87. You never met a reallysuccessful woman until you met Hillary?

Wow, do you live in the mountains Alaska?

What is condescending about pointing out that many many women have accomplished much much more with their graduate degrees, or less?

I acknowledged that being a mother and wife is a fine career for a woman. How many women can have that and have paid staff who do the vacuuming all the time for 16 years as they parade around as First Lady of the USA or AR?

I don't think you get my point yet.......Hillary is a fine lady, but she's not the best America has to offer as far as accomplishments go, and she seems to have squandered it on a hateful race-baiting campaign for President.

I think we could do better with most of the women of accomplishment in America today. Don't you agree?

[bigtree]

99. Those women aren't running. Hillary put herself on the line in this race.

She's extremely qualified and competent. And, what's important, is, she's just as competent as ANY of our Democratic candidates for the presidency. That's what we're doing here. Folks put themselves on the line in the race and we choose -- hopefully on qualifications which have more depth than some opinionated focus on the gender, race, or ethnicity of the candidates.

Now, the rest of what you've posted here about 'race-baiting' is your real argument, not the facade in your posts about 'qualifications'. Again, I would point you to those millions of women voters who, apparently, don't share your complaints, and, have supported Hillary Clinton (in concert with, or, as an adjunct to their own 'movement'). It's amazing how you believe you can speak for them. You merely represent those who share your narrow, negative view of the senator's life and candidacy.

[Cha]

69. And as buzzflash says

.."there are many progressive women who aren't dlc fabulist, corporate lobbist, triangulator candidates. Unfortunately, we got stuck with hilary
who is all of the above as our first female presidential candidate. Congresswoman Jan Schakowsky who is seeking to be appointed to replace Senator Obama should he be elected president is one of those fine progressives who would be a fantastic candidate for president".

http://www.buzzflash.com/

http://www.suntimes.com/news/politics/obama/880337,CST-NWS-senate06.article

[Major Hogwash]

72. I think her campaign will only set the women's movement back by 20 years.

But, then, I'm more optimistic than most.

If Hillary drops out after she loses in Pennsylvania, and she is going to lose in Pennsylvania, she has a slight chance of everyone sort of forgetting her for awhile.

If, on the other hand, she stays in the race, even after she loses in Pennsylvania, then I think she causes everyone to question her decision making process, and that reflects on the women's movement in a bad way.

If she stays in the race and loses in Indiana and in North Carolina, after she loses in Pennsylvania, she still has a small chance of salvaging some of her credibility if she drops out of the race then.
But, damn little.

She won't be a viable part of campaigning for Obama during the summer, or in the fall, because she still has cocktail wishes and cavair dreams of getting back into the White House.

There has to come a time when she realizes that the odds of lightning striking Obama between now and August are damn small.

It isn't going to take very much longer for other people to start calling for her inept, shitty campaign to come to an end.
She is embarrassing all of us with her lies and bullshit rhetorical stories.
All of the good that her and Bubba have done for the party over the years has now been erased and she starts with no veritas whatsoever.
She doesn't speak for me or for any of my family or friends.
We turn her off whenever she comes on the teevee, the same way we turn off Bush whenever his mug crosses the screen.

Please note that I didn't call her names.

[JayFredMuggs]

76. One of the best posts on this thread...........THANKS... my sentiments exactly.... expressed here...

"She is embarrassing all of us with her lies and bullshit rhetorical stories.
All of the good that her and Bubba have done for the party over the years has now been erased and she starts with no veritas whatsoever.
She doesn't speak for me or for any of my family or friends.
We turn her off whenever she comes on the teevee, the same way we turn off Bush whenever his mug crosses the screen.

Please note that I didn't call her names."

[terrell9584]

75. you realize the same could be said about Obama

and the fact that his grandmother was apparently a high ranking executive, and that he went to Harvard, and that he had advantages in his childhood that the majority of Americans didn't have. Honestly works both ways.

The fact remains that it has been a long time since we have had a President who became President by pulling themselves up. They have all been people who have been advantaged some way, the majority of them having an Ivy League education, etc. I will be impressed the day we have a Presidential candidate who has all of their education from state schools, who was actually a product of public schooling, who came from a broken home with no ties to affluence, someone who had every disadvantage combined that can exist in the country and still manage to be a contender....when that day comes, I'll be impressed.

[JayFredMuggs]

83. If you want to start you own thread about Obama, be my guest..but

don't park your stupid factless posts here on MY thread..........

Let's keep this discussion to the part about ACCOMPLISHMENTS with such great educations.

I'm sure you can start a thread about how a black man running ahead of a former First Lady in the primaries .....

and all that about setting black equality back 40 years... yeah, you really don't get it, do you? You're just ANGRY at Obama supporters and wanted to post here.........

Get your own thread, ok? Preach your racism somewhere else, I don't know too many successful black men, but I already told you, I know a heck of a lot of successful white women with less to start out with than Hillary had... Goldwater supporter that she was.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

134. "I don't know too many successful black men"- JayFredMuggs

You need to get out more... Frankly, I find your sentiments patronizing and racist.

[zulchzulu]

84. I don't particulary think the women's movement is set back by Hillary Clinton's candidacy

There are plenty of woman leaders out there that can stand on their own and would bring a fantastic choice for voters in the years to come.

Once Barack Obama finishes his second term as President, there will be a chance for a woman to run for President again. By then, Hillary Clinton's failed attempt will only be examined for the many blunders from her, her campaign team and surrogates. People will be able to see that Hillary Clinton being a woman was the least reason for her disastrous failure.

[Sparkly]

89. Which woman?

Just curious.

[JayFredMuggs]

95. That is my dream also... but I will support Hillary if she wins or steals the nomination

John McSame, worst thing ever since George W Bush.

Enough said.

Yes, there are dozens and dozens of women who could run for President in the USA, today, and dozens more in 2012 or 2016.


District Attorneys in many states, prosecuting crimes, US Attorneys, FBI Agents, people who actually have to work five or six days a week.

There are thousands of women in leadership who have worked hard, worked their way up, didn't get the NY Senate seat handed to them because they had been married to Bill Clinton.

That is what I am talking about.

[Sparkly]

86. I love how many MEN here have become experts on the women's movement.

Bad enough when women make such proclamations.

In fact, support her or not, the woman has proven herself from a young age onward. "What are your lifetime accomplishments?" Read her bio. Ten to one they're superior to your own.

:eyes:

[QC]

91. I know how you feel. Lately DU is full of helpful heterosexuals eager to tell me

how to be a good little homo, how I should vote, which issues should concern me and which should not, which of my opinions are valid and which are pure foolishness, etc. Their concern really warms my heart, and now I never feel that I am without guidance. I love those guys!

[Sparkly]

93. I'm sure they're only trying to help you.

I hope you thanked them for the free advice! :sarcasm:

:hi:

[QC]

97. Well, they just understand that we dizzy little queens need someone to look out for us.

Otherwise we might get so carried away looking for vintage dishes and redecorating our apartments and cruising the truck stops that we won't vote properly.

That's why Obama has promised us "a basic set of rights." He knows that if they give us the full set we'll probably just leave it out in the rain and let it get ruined, or give it to some hot rentboy, so it's best that we get the basic set for now. Kinda like a training bra, I guess.

[JayFredMuggs]

101. So how do you like Hillary's promise to leave your rights up to "the states"?

When did you hear about Hillary's promise to give all gay people equal rights in 50 states, and in federal programs?

I must have missed that! Do you have a link?

[JayFredMuggs]

98. How do you know I am a heterosexual?

Just wanted you to tell me how you know this!

Assume what you will, but don't EVER assume I am heterosexual because I despise the way Hillary Clinton has wasted her one chance to prove that she was a woman capable of being a good President. So many of you are so off on your own tangents here, this is getting rather silly.

[QC]

102. Nobody said anything about you, Ethel.

Now get back to your hatin' -- it's what you do best!

[Texasgal]

92. Geez... NO kidding!

This thread sucks.

[JayFredMuggs]

105. I am no expert on the women's movement, but I know a fraud when I see one!

Hillary Rodham,

List her life accomplishments as a successful woman in her own right. SHE was the one who chose to be called by that name until it became more politically advantageous to be called Hillary R Clinton.

List her accomplishments beyond that point if you wish.

A leader of the American people? I don't see that on her resume!

[CreekDog]

107. No her campaign has set her candidacy back, it hasn't set the women's movement back

another female candidate, better than Hillary, could have beaten Obama for the nomination and beaten McCain in the General Election.

Hillary has turned out to be a terrible candidate.

[JayFredMuggs]

108. I have to agree, Perhaps I overstated the issue

Her campaign is definitely a disaster.

The women's movement, not so much, actually I wish Hillary had advanced it further.

Maybe I was wrong, Hillary only hurt herself. I hope that's ALL she hurt.

So many good women in America deserve better than what Hillary has turned out to be as their symbol of womanhood.

[Name removed]

119. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[leftynyc]

138. Women are smarter than you give us

credit for. Symbol of womanhood??!! We don't let ANY ONE women define us. Your OP was some of the worst drivel I've seen on this board and during this primary season, that's quite an accommplishment.

[jackson_dem]

109. Ironic. This sexist post has 11 recs. What would be the reaction be to a similar thread about Obama?

Has Obama's use of the race card set back the chances of any minority winning down the road? How about Obama losing in a landslide? After Al Smith lost in a landslide in 1928 no Catholic was nominated until 1960.

The truth is both represent progress. The bs questions about whether the country is "ready" for a woman or a black president will be far less common the next time around a woman or African American runs. That is progress.

[LulaMay]

111. Outrage.

[Forkboy]

112. Probably about 11 recs.

:shrug:

[GarbagemanLB]

122. bingo

[mtnsnake]

116. A similar post about Obama would have been locked in minutes w/the OPer getting the banning brigade

after him in their Mass Email Banning Alert.

[jackson_dem]

120. Yup. Clinton supporters are only 5% of the forum yet look at the percentage of bannings

It is obvious the Obamites have a mass alert hit squad. That is the only thing that explains such a disparity for I have no doubts as to the integrity of those making the decision. What can they do, though, when they are constantly flooded with "over 50" (as jlake divulged) alerts for one thread alone?

Herman was banned recently by the mass alert Obamite posting police for saying the general election's demographics are not the same as the primary electorate and that Obama's weakness with whites would hurt him in the general. A few days later a poll came out showing him losing badly to McCain in Florida due to getting only 27% white support...

Obama critics/Clinton supporters banned recently

Proud2bamurkin
liberalnurse
KennedyGuy
jlake*
Herman Munster*
magsdem
CyberPieHole
billbuckhead
chocome
Omega3
chixydix

*appeared on the "top 10" Obamite hit list


Obamites banned during the same period

[mtnsnake]

123. I guess it's what you might call lynch mob rule, eh

You should add a "None" after your last sentence, just for clarity sake.

[LulaMay]

110. No. IF it suffers a setback, it will be because of people like YOU. Women r going 2 show the world

[rodeodance]

113. And I could never respect you after you smear job. What a sh*t load!

"I could EVER respect Hillary Clinton"

[mtnsnake]

115. A post like this is the reason DU has become the laughing stock of the internet

Not only is it a lie from top to bottom but it's just about THE dumbest fucking bunch of words I've ever seen scramblefucked together in one idiotic clusterfuck of a post! Congratulations for making DU look even sillier than it did yesterday!

[Forkboy]

124. And your locked threads made us look awesome.

:rofl:

[Name removed]

133. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mtnsnake]

164. The sad part is that after all this time you still think about me enough to follow me around

which shows you have no life and that I made such an impact on yours because of a message board how sad son. I guess that's what happens when you impact someones life like I did yours, they remember you but you forget them. Get a life, loser. Hope that helps....

edited to add I agree with the poster just above word for word, the one who you whined to the mods to get their post deleted for no reason other than you cant stand to hear the truth. wahhhHHH

[qnr]

117. Well we obviously have a difference of opinion. I grew up in the sixties, I'm a male, retired

military, a lifelong liberal Democrat - and I find things to respect about Senator Clinton everywhere I look. One of us must be wearing blinders.

[Name removed]

121. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[McCamy Taylor]

131. Accusing women of being crazy, irrational and animalistic is....sexist.

Give that man a prize for his cliche behavior.

[StevieM]

126. My God...you Obama people are so nasty. The handwriting of defeat in November is all over the wall

I think I know what it looked like under McGovern now--the arrogance is astounding (although at least McGovern himself seems nice). I can't believe that I am watching a whole party collectively commit suicide.

I even put up a post yesterday to try to reach out. I said that I would vote for Barack in November if he's the nominee, but vote against him in the 2012 primaries--a fair compromise, I thought. But the Obama people (for the most part) simply want blood.

Oh well, at least McCain will probably not seek a second term. Maybe JP Stevens can live until 93. Then O'Malley can come forward in 2012 and kick Mitt Romney's butt.

Steve

[McCamy Taylor]

132. Most of these are Freeper moles. Just tease them like I do but don't blame

Obama. He knows that such views are political suicide in the Dem primary. The RNC sends the RW agitators in here to mess us up.

[mtnsnake]

140. Ain't that the cold hard truth

78% of them are freeper moles for sure. Yikes!

[Major Hogwash]

161. You need to move to the next bathroom stall if that is the writing all over the wall

You're probably using one of Senator Craig's old hangout stalls.

[Beacool]

127. OK, let me turn it around.

Why does Obama with the thinnest of records deserve the presidency when there are many other black men who have a proven record of accomplishments?

Whatever...........

:eyes:

[QueenOfCalifornia]

128. Holy Shit!

Do you wear those asbestos thunderpants all day or do you take 'em off to shower?

:hi:

[McCamy Taylor]

130. And is it Blacks' fault that there only been 2 Black SCOTUS Justices? Blame the victim

is a rude game.

[Evergreen Emerald]

139. I am stunned. That this is a progressive board. With this crap posted

It really makes me sad. To minimize her accomplishments and her power in this way. To suggest that her goals and her accomplishments are nothing and she does not deserve to be labeled a feminist.

You are wrong. Ugly, divisive, and wrong.

You can't respect Clinton? Then I suggest that you should get your head out of Obama's ass and look at her accomplishments. Because, you will see a progressive, self-made woman who has paved the way for many females to follow her.

She is one of the brightest of our time.

And you suck.

[mtnsnake]

141. You nailed it, EE, except for the part that this is a progressive board

This board is only progressive in La La Land.

[JayFredMuggs]

142. Thank you for your kindness!

I have asked Hillary supporters to post HER ACCOMPLISHMENTS, both before this campaign and during this campaign!

Not ONE SINGLE HILLARY supporter has posted any accomplishment other than running for office.

You can start listing her ACCOMPLISHMENTS here, if you wish. But I think you are so angry at me for respecting so many OTHER women and not respecting Hillary's Presidential campaign behavior, so angry that you will not give us a list of her actual accomplishments.

[Evergreen Emerald]

168. Kindness?

You deserve what you give.

[AJH032]

148. your logic makes little sense

Is Obama the only qualified man (or better yet, African American man) fit to be our nominee? The answer is obviously no, but that doesn't mean he shouldn't be nominated. Hillary is simply a presidential candidate who is a woman. Just because there may be women out there more "deserving" (but yet, are not running) does not mean we should hold it against her.

[JuniperLea]

149. This is utter bullshit

Only an individual can determine what their personal "success" is! You have a lot of fucking nerve to even suggest such a heinous thing. Women have never been stronger or more successful. Women are now striving for WHAT THEY WANT instead of something a fucked up dumbass man is telling her she wants! And YOU belong in that last category for sure.

Jesus F. Christ on a cracker... this is beyond stupidity.

[knixphan]

157. Boxer/Power '16!

[krkaufman]

163. eh, I don't think she's set anyone or anything back, other than her own campaign n/t

[Name removed]

165. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Splinter Cell]

169. AMEN

:patriot:

[Chalco]

170. Does no one but me suspect that this a-hole is a troll?

He's obviously a troll trying to foment dissension. Dont you get it? Tombstone please. What are you waiting for. Unless you moderators agree with this crap.

[chapel hill dem]

171. There is a paper to be written on how Condi is considered a viable

choice to be McCain's VP running mate by the GOP. Especially with his age and health problems.

Just think, if Obama is our nominee, then it could be possible that we will have a black person as POTUS by 2012, regardless of the GE outcome!