Hitting the nail on the head...

[SquireJons]

With regards to the recent Democratic candidate infighting, this article by Paul Krugman says it all.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/01/02/opinion/02KRUG.html

[blm]

1. I said Dean was Nader last January

when he called the others "Bushlite" which is no different than Nader accusing Gore of not being a dime's worth of difference from Bush.

Dean also marched next to a sign that said Kerry = Bush before the New Mexico debate.

So...WHO is more like Nader?

[SquireJons]

2. It's funny what Ralph has become...

...an icon for vanity.

I can't really speak for what was done in the very early moments of the Dean candidacy. He may well have made very poisonous statements. I really didn't take notice of him until he began to rise in the national polls. From where I'm standing, Dean has made his growth in popularity, not from tearing down other Democrats, but by hammering Bush. I can't believe that the other candidates would want to be president so badly that they would actively help put out a fire at W's feet. His momentum is genuine, and the others should recognize it, but they are blinded by ambition. It makes me sick.

[blm]

3. Then THAT'S why you don't understand why so many despise Dean.

He lied about them and distorted their records and his own positions to glorify himself.

[Pegleg Thd]

5. Nader should be forced

to drive a 1962 Chevrolet Corvair from Boston to Seattle. That should keep him off the radar for a couple of months.

[jeter]

6. blm, you've been saying this for a while

But never have you provided any proof of it. What exactly has Dean said that "distorted records" or "lied" about other candidates?

Dean would compare and contrast his record and views with the others. But he has never made his campaign about his opponents, the way his opponents are.

The reason Dean leads now and the others have faltered has nothing to do with attacks.

In the beginning, Kerry and Lieberman were the most recognizable names in the race. So therefore, logically, initially they would be ahead. Then came the war resolution vote. Both supported it, as did Gephardt. This was the time Dean probably contrasted his views with the others most loudly. Which was entirely the right thing to do. He argued that he opposed the war and would not support the resolution and accused the others of trying to have it both ways - which was true. Criticizing the President on foreign affairs and then giving him a blank cheque was not popular among rank and file Democrats. So Dean caught fire and shot up in the polls while the others fell.

So blame and "hate" Dean if you want. But maybe sooner or later, you'll have to look at your own candidate and accept responsibility for your problems rather than blaming someone else.

Dean has run a strong campaign. He has energized people outside the establishment that were/are upset about the way this party is being run. If Kerry, Lieberman and Gephardt understood what Dean was saying and the legitimacy of his argument and listened to the rank-and-file themselves, they wouldn't be in this mess.

"Hate" Dean if you must. But Kerry has no one to blame but himself.

[blm]

7. That's completely untrue. I've posted it many times.

Here's an example of Dean lying early. He also calls them Bushlite at this time. Kerry has the lifetime record closest to Wellstone of all the candidates so how does Dean claim that Kerry or ANY of the others who carried left water for decades is "Bushlite" is smearing of the worst kind.


http://www.cmonitor.com/stories/news/local2003/012303dean_2002.shtml

I can't wait for those four guys from Congress to come up here and explain to us why they wanted to raise your property taxes after they supported a tax cut for the wealthiest people in America," he said.

Dean also criticized his opponents for voting to give Bush a "blank check" on military intervention in Iraq - and, now, changing their tune on the issue.

"Today, they're running around telling you folks they're all anti-war," he said. (Later, he acknowledged that Lieberman's vote was consistent with the senator's comparatively "hawkish" position on Iraq.) "We're never going to elect a president that does those things. If I voted for the Iraq resolution, I'd be standing in favor, supporting it right now in front of you."

Dean said he would have voted instead for the Biden-Lugar resolution, which he said supported disarming Saddam using multilateral action, and which did not call for a "regime change."
>>>>>>>

NONE of the candidates voted for Bush's 2001 or 2003 taxcut for the wealthiest.

NONE of them retreated from their vote on IWR, but, all were questioning HOW Bush was conducting diplomacy at the time.

Dean NEVER explains that his position on Biden-Lugar was also a main part of the IWR, that Bush was allowed to make the determination for use of force, even if unilateral.

This is just ONE appearance and he repeated this tact often.

[KaraokeKarlton]

9. So Dean forced Kerry to vote like shit then?

I hate to break it to you, blm, but John Kerry chose to make the votes he did. The people he was supposed to be representing don't approve of those votes. He should have taken the time to listen to his constituents before signing on the dotted line. He chose not to do that. The more Kerry and his supporters blame the fallout from HIS votes on Dean, the more pathetic Kerry looks. He made his bed, now he gets to lay in it.

[blm]

10. Give it a rest. We know more about Dean and his real centrism than

we care to. That is, those of us who can discern bullshit do. Dean is a bullshitter, who SUGGESTED a Patriot Act THREE DAYS after 9-11, so he absolutely would have voted for it.

Dean was FOR a resolution for use of force only SLIGHTLY different than the one that passed. He lied to say he was antoiwar and that the others were prowar based on IWR.

He lied about their tax vote. NONE of them voted for it.

[KaraokeKarlton]

12. Pardon me, blm

But if anyone needs to give it a rest...

well, you get the point.

:eyes:

[blm]

13. The truth keeps me going.

Battling lies no matter what.

[KaraokeKarlton]

16. Well, that's just your opinion of the "truth"

But in light of the fact that you are virtually the only person harping on this issue it would seem that no one else really gives a shit.

It seems to me that if no one pays any attention to this or even cares about it that you're really wasting your effort. You'd serve the guy a lot better if you spent your time actually promoting him rather than blaming Howard Dean for Kerry's failures. :shrug:

[Rose Siding]

19. That is a worse distortion

of what Dean said than any you have accused him of making. There was no suggestion about any patriot act. That's just false. He spoke about "re-evaluating" (looking over again) and having a dialogue about freedom vs safety. It was a timely remark. We should have had the opportunity to do that.

And are you now saying that Kerry was pro-war for supporting the IRW? That's how I see it too.

[XanaDUer]

11. But it is more complex than that...

Here is an example, re the Iraq vote:

"I'm not saying that Dean supported the war, nor am I arguing that Dean is secretly a neocon hawk in dove's clothing. That's ridiculous. I am saying that Dean's record is not as clear as the conventional wisdom would have us believe. There were complexities to Dean's position that have been largely ignored in recent months as Dean has assumed the mantle of the leading "anti-war candidate."

More here:

http://www.thecarpetbaggerreport.com/archives/000940.html


So of course, they are all responsible for their votes, but also for pasts acts and wobbling around on various positions.

[KaraokeKarlton]

14. Listen...

My point is that it is totally lame and pathetic to keep blaming Howard Dean for Kerry's campaign woes. The "Bush Lite" criticism would never have stuck if people didn't already feel that way about those votes. When Kerry supporters use this argument they make Kerry sound like a wimply little victim while they are also constantly calling him a war hero. Those two positions are inconsistent with each other. This is how the man's whole campaign has gone. His campaign never found it's niche or footing, and things only stick to someone if people see merit in the criticism. None of this is Dean's fault. People were plenty pissed about Kerry's votes they didn't like whether Dean said anything about them or not. Kerry KNEW he would be criticized within the party for making those votes and he took that chance because he though it would make him more palatable to the middle voters. He chose to blame the criticism rather than address it. None of this is Dean's fault and IMO, it's just plain ridiculous for anyone to blame Dean for Kerry's failures. Kerry is a grown man with a long political career. He should have thought things through more and handled things better, and he didn't. And again, none of that has anything to do with Dean. :shrug:

[blm]

15. That article REALLY nails Dean COMPLETELY!

Good.

Too bad there is so much vanity that will never accept that Dean has been deceitful.

[KaraokeKarlton]

17. That's because everyone else have moved on to current issues

after having seen you beat this particular horse into oblivion. It's insignificant and no one really cares.

[Clark Can WIN]

20. Dean lied about Clark

said he was a Republican until 21 days ago which the good doctor knew to be a complete and utter lie. He was probably still mad at Clark for telling him to go piss up a rope when he offered Clark the spot as a running mate.

[Tom Rinaldo]

4. Great article. I agree completely. n/t

[stickdog]

8. Krugman gets it right. As usual. (nt)

[quaker bill]

18. They may be wannabe Nader's now

But soon they will pass into irrelevance. I know "Howard done me wrong".... Whatever.

Nothing Howard has done even remotely compares to the the things Bush*/Rove would have done if they became nominee. Fortunately for them, Howard will soon relieve them of all the stress and bother.

[blm]

21. Howard is screwing the best chance we ever had to nail BushInc.

The big BCCI trial is starting on Jan.13 in England. BushInc. needs Kerry off the national stage FAST.

Thanks to all those Dems who are working to give Bush what he needs.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=977792&mesg_id=977792

[KaraokeKarlton]

22. And here I thought I was stuck in the 80's

Boy oh boy have you got me beat.