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A little background on the SUSA poll that runs against the others in PA.

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AnarchoFreeThinker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-09-08 12:44 PM
Original message
A little background on the SUSA poll that runs against the others in PA.
Survey USA has a recent poll showing Obama down 18 to Clinton in PA. By all indications, this is an out-lier among the past week's results (polls taken 4/2 and on), with one other poll showing a tie, two showing Clinton up 3, two showing her up 5, and one giving her a 6 point lead.

As we know, SUSA can be all over the map, although they seem to have gotten better as the primary season has progressed. I can't say they're wrong on PA, but I can point to past polls in the state. EACH of theirs reports a wider gap than other polls released around the same time:

3/31 SUSA reports a 12-point Clinton lead, while three other polls released that day report Clinton leads of 5, 8, and 9, and one released the next day has Obama up 2.

3/10 SUSA reports a 19-point Clinton lead, while two other polls (one released that day and one a couple days later) each report a Clinton lead of 14, and one from the day before reports an 18-point spread (the latter poll, though less of a spread, basically corroborating SUSA here).

The point is, IN EVERY CASE Survey USA reports a wider gap than everybody else within the same basic time period, and sometimes a much wider gap. This doesn't mean they're wrong or biased, but at the minimum they're making different assumptions and/or using a different methodology from everybody else. My guess is they're using voter rolls that aren't up-to-date or some other working list that can't accommodate new voters very well, but this is ONLY a guess. It's also possible they're the only ones who are right.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/pa/pennsylvania_democratic_primary-240.html#polls
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goldcanyonaz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-09-08 12:46 PM
Response to Original message
1. SUSA has the best track record this primary season compared with its rivals.
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AnarchoFreeThinker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-09-08 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #1
9. SC: SUSA says 13% spread, Obama by 19 NJ: SUSA says Clinton by 11, 6% spread....
AL: SUSA says Obama by 2, 14% spread
MIZZOU: SUSA says Clinton by 11, spread 1% (to Obama)
VA: SUSA says Obama by 23, spread 28

There are more, but you get the point. They might be good, but they're capable of botching a state, and have done so plenty of times--and in each of these cases under-reported Obama's strength.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/va/virginia_democratic_primary-507.html
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rinsd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-09-08 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. Missing a few points past a 20 spread is not a big deal.
Edited on Wed Apr-09-08 01:12 PM by rinsd
Also it should be noted that SurveyUSA was the one to have Obama winning AL (Insider advantage flipped their poll from aday earlier to have the same 2 pt Obama lead).

MO they blew.

Like I said they may be the outlier in this state but they have done very well this year

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AnarchoFreeThinker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-09-08 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #12
19. true, a 20% error looks pretty good next to their 1200% error
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AllentownJake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-09-08 12:48 PM
Response to Original message
2. Nobody
Has the new voter rolls. Not even the campaigns. Those what could be 400,000 new democrats are a wild card nobody is calling for polling purposes.
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Barack_America Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-09-08 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. I'm just praying that all of those new voters actually make it on the rolls!
I'm really concerned about that here in Philly.

I honestly don't think they'll make it through them. I was at the board of elections on March 24. The piles were seemingly overwhelming.
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AllentownJake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-09-08 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. There will be trouble
If the ones submitted from the campaign don't make it. We reviewed all the ones we submitted and photocopied them. We know who we gave to the office. If a large proportion of those don't make it...
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Barack_America Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-09-08 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. There will be tens of thousands of provisional ballots in Philly.
Mark my words.

It's not only the new voters, but the folks who haven't voted for a while.

It's going to be difficult.
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AllentownJake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-09-08 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #7
13. Yep
I think they can remove you off the rolls if you don't vote in 3 consecutive Presidential elections.
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dchill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-09-08 12:50 PM
Response to Original message
3. SUSA also uses a much smaller sample group.
The current one polled 597 voters. Most polls use larger sample groups - 1200+.
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rinsd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-09-08 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #3
8. The original sample was 1600, filtered down to likely voters.
"Filtering: 1,600 state of PA adults were interviewed 04/05/08 through 04/07/08. Of them, 1,407 were registered to vote. Of them, 597 were determined by SurveyUSA to be likely to vote in the Democratic Primary on 04/22/08. All interviews for this survey were conducted after the Clintons released on 04/06/08 their tax returns for 2000 through 2006. The Pennsylvania Primary is "closed." Only registered Democrats are allowed to vote. There is no early voting. Pennsylvania's 158 Democratic Convention delegates are awarded proportionally. The state has 19 Congressional Districts."

http://www.surveyusa.com/client/PollReport.aspx?g=c79e5bab-a424-49f6-86d6-50c61cf729b7

"Most polls use larger sample groups - 1200+."

PPD & Quinnipiac are the only polls taking 1000+

I am unsure what PPD's qualification is for likely Democratic voter since their question sheet does not seem to have that one

http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/pdf/PPP_Release_040908.pdf

Quinnipiac has done ok this year but has some mixed results in years past (they blew the Lieberman race pretty badly)

Poll	   Date	   Sample	Clinton	Obama	Spread
RCP Average 04/02 - 04/08 - 48.7 42.0 Clinton +6.7
PPP (D) 04/07 - 04/08 1124 LV 46 43 Clinton +3.0
Rasmussen 04/07 - 04/07 695 LV 48 43 Clinton +5.0
SurveyUSA 04/05 - 04/07 597 LV 56 38 Clinton +18.0
SV(R) 04/04 - 04/06 LV 47 42 Clinton +5.0
Quinnipiac 04/03 - 04/06 1340 LV 50 44 Clinton +6.0
Insider Adv 04/02 - 04/02 659 LV 45 42 Clinton +3.0


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PoliticalAmazon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-09-08 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #8
15. "Likely voters" will return up to a 7% more conservative response...
See http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=5436920&mesg_id=5437149

for more information on polls.

I would like to know WHY they decided to focus on "likely voters." Do they always use "likely voters" for the PA polls? If not, then be very suspicious regarding why they are doing it now, because using "likely voters" can deliver up to a 7% more conservative response (in this case, it would be 7% more for HRC).

Nationally, sampling of 1200 to 1400 voters is a valid sample size. For a state, probably 500-600 would be a valid sample.

Also, it would be important to determine what criteria they used for "likely voter." If the criteria is "did you vote in the last election?" then it probably is not a valid criteria for this particular match-up. Many new voters, and voters who don't normally vote, have been shown to be voting in this primary. Therefore, a criteria that includes "voting in last election" would pull in more Hillary voters, since newly registered are more for Obama.
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democrattotheend Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-09-08 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #15
22. They all use "likely voters". The difference is how you define likely.
I believe SurveyUSA might use a more conservative approach to modeling likely turnout, perhaps relying on whether they voted in the last election. So their numbers tend to favor Clinton a little because Obama is doing better among first time voters. But that's actually better for Obama, because polls that include people who may or may not vote up the ante for him and set him up to underperform expectations. I'd rather the polls be wrong against him than be wrong in his favor.
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PoliticalAmazon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-09-08 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. Not true. They use registered and likely. See my previous post...
...for a link to a previous post that outlines the problems with polls and gives a specific instance (CNN/Zogby, 2004) poll where they used "likely voters" for only one part of a poll.
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democrattotheend Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-09-08 02:59 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. Polls that use likely voters tend to be more accurate
Good polls rarely rely simply on registered voters.
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rinsd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-09-08 12:54 PM
Response to Original message
5. SUSA has one of the best track records this primary season.
This poll could be an outlier but SUSA has done quite well.



They also nailed the vote in OH

http://www.surveyusa.com/client/PollReport.aspx?g=96160e3e-e0bc-44cb-8273-28a16edbf219

They were a little off in TX (they had OBama 49-48 when the primary vote ended up being Hillary 51 to 47)

And even then they posted this caveat

2,000 state of Texas adults were interviewed 03/01/08 and 03/02/08. Of them, 1,766 were registered to vote. Of them, 840 told SurveyUSA they had already voted, or were determined by SurveyUSA to be likely to vote on election day. Of those who have already voted, Clinton leads 50% to 48%. For Obama to carry the state's popular vote (convention delegates are not awarded as a straight function of the popular vote), Obama needs to run at least 3 points stronger than Clinton among those who vote at the precinct tomorrow.

http://www.surveyusa.com/client/PollReport.aspx?g=d7698664-137f-46f0-ba92-32aea473d72e

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AnarchoFreeThinker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-09-08 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #5
10. See also post #9, though.
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PoliticalAmazon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-09-08 01:08 PM
Response to Original message
11. SUSA could be constructing the polls to favor the outcome wanted by ...
...the person or group paying for the poll.

These polls aren't done in a vacuum, and--because there is zero oversight or accountability by the government regarding fair practices--they are wide-open to corruption.

Groups/companies/campaigns/individuals contract to have polls done, and how much influence the entity contracting the polling service on the way the questions are asked, how the questions are worded, etc. is unknown.

The polls have a lot of influence on the outcome of an election because humans are, in many things, herd animals, and especially the mushy middle of the political spectrum puts a lot of value in how the majority of other voters are voting (the belief being that if that many people have that opinion, the opinion must be valid).

Political candidates and organizations spend a good deal of money funding polls, which they use in their campaigns to influence voters.

I compiled some analyses of polls during the 2002 and 2004 elections cycles, and came to the conclusion that the vast majority of polls to which we are exposed cannot be validated based on the way they were conducted and who controls the questions asked and what material is published, and when. Some polls, just by the information given in the spin pieces written about them, can be seen to be flawed without even having to trying to get information from the polling organization.

(http://www.ncpp.org/?q=node/4) “20 Questions a Journalist Should Ask About Polls” is a good explanation of some of the issue about polls.

There are other issues I didn't see mentioned in this article, and they are important to know when reading about polling results.

*Polling phone calls made in the evening and weekends are more likely to reach conservatives.
*Polling questions asked to those "likely to vote" (voted in the last election) are more likely (by up to 7%) to return a conservative bias. So there is a difference in outcome if you ask questions of "those likely to vote" and "registered voters," and if the former group ("likely to vote") is asked it favors the conservative candidate or opinion.

Here's an example of how the second issue becomes important, especially in a highly partisan political election, where Republican voters woud be highly likely to vote for Republican candidates and Democratic Party voters would be highly likely to vote for Democratic Party candidates.

In the 2004 election, before the primary was held, when Dean was at his strongest, CNN published an article about a poll that they funded (from what I could find out--and polling groups do NOT want to give you enough information so that you cann assess the poll for validity--if they say "CNN/Zogby Poll" it usually means CNN paid for it, and it may mean that they had control over what questions were asked, how they were asked, when the calls were made, how the data was manipulated for results, and which of the polling results were allowed to be published).

The premise of the CNN poll was "If you were to vote now, and your choice was between GWBush against one of the Democratic candidates, who would you vote for?" Then they would ask the question of Bush v. each of the Democratic candidates.

For all of the candidates except Dean--and they listed the non-Dean candidates first in the article--the polling was done of "registered voters." In all of the non-Dean candidates, GWBush won by a good margin.

The last Dem candidate they listed was Dean, and for his hypothetical run against GWBush, the pollers asked the question of "those likely to vote." Right away, there is up to an 8% more conservative outcome. Even with that, Dean was less than 1 or 2 points behind GWBush, and the poll had a margin of error of 3 to 4 points.

Yet the article was entitled, "If Election Held Now, Bush Would Win."

It gets better. The number of people polled was between 1300 and 1400, which is a good sampling, PROVIDED THE POLL IS CONDUCTED LEGITIMATELY. Out of those polled, around 380 were U.S. veterans. Out those veterans, a majority said they would vote for Bush. But this is the problem: 380 is far to small of a sample to predict the outcome of a national election. Also, people who identify themselves as veterans are more likely to be conservative.

Also, out of the 1300 to 1400 people, less than one-third were Democrats. I am sure the poll was weighted (but there are problems with weighting), but the fact that there were so many more Republicans makes me think that the polling calls were made at a time when it was more likely that conservatives would be reached.

So the questions asked of veterans were from a small group of respondents, and out of those (since only a third of the entire poll was Democrat, and since self-identified veterans are more likely to be conervative), the number of Democrats in this small sample of veterans was probably very, very small.

Yet the subtitle, right after, "If Election Held Now, Bush Would Win," was this: "Veterans Vote for Bush by Large Margin."

I spent a great deal of time trying to get information from these polling groups. Zogby got downright pissy when I would not give up in trying to find out specifics, such as when the calls were made, and, more importantly, questions about how much influence the person or group funding the poll had on the questions asked, how they were worded, when they were asked, and what results were published, as well as how the data was manipulated.

Anyway, be wary of the polls, and if your gut feeling tells you that the polling results are flawed, I would suggest you go with your gut feelings because, IMO, there is a very good chance that many polling results ARE flawed.
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rinsd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-09-08 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. SurveyUSA does their published polls for the media.
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PoliticalAmazon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-09-08 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. Is the media in PA more consesrvative? Poll funder may have...
...influence over how the poll is constructed and, if this is true, the poll could be easily corrupted to favor one outcome or the other.
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LiveLiberally Donating Member (457 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-09-08 01:28 PM
Response to Original message
17. What struck me most about the latest SUSA poll was the % of undecided....
at 2%, this is I believe MUCH lower than any other recent poll. There are a few ways to interpret this. First, it is likely that the pollster phrased the questions so as to lower the % of undecided as much as possible. Hence, if the voter was even slightly leaning towards a given candidate, he or she would be recorded as supporting them.

The dead give-away is in SUSA's own analysis. See: http://www.surveyusa.com/client/PollReport.aspx?g=c79e5bab-a424-49f6-86d6-50c61cf729b7

Look at the number of voters who said they could still change their mind. Clinton: 50% Obama: 31%. Most likely interpretation: Clinton is still leading by double digits, but her support, relative to Obama, is much softer
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AllentownJake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-09-08 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. Canvasing
Undecided is the second biggest opinion to Not home.
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Buzz Clik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-09-08 01:43 PM
Response to Original message
20. It's time to run a poll to determine which poll we prefer.
:eyes:
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AnarchoFreeThinker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-09-08 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. If you've ever been poled, you know just how painful that can be.
--David Letterman, mid-eighties
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AX10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-09-08 02:38 PM
Response to Original message
23. SurveyUSA has had the best track record so far.
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AnarchoFreeThinker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-09-08 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. see post #9
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book_worm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-09-08 03:07 PM
Response to Original message
27. well find out soon enough which pollster will be the most right on PA
in the meanwhile lets all just have a nice long drink.
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