If Hillary Clinton - or any other woman for that matter - isn't a victim of sexism...

[Writer]

then who is a victim? Anyone?

And how exactly did that sexism manifest itself?

Curiously,

~Writer~

Edit: Grammar and clarity.

[blogslut]

1. You set up an illegitimate premise

"nor anyone else, for that matter"

Sorry, I won't debate a loaded question.

[Writer]

3. Okay, I'll rephrase this just for you...

If Hillary Clinton isn't a victim of sexism, then how did she do it? What amazing formula has she used to be "sexism free?"

[blogslut]

9. Now you're just confusing me

How did she do what? Rise to power despite sexism?

I have never claimed Senator Clinton was "sexism free". In fact, I admire the heights she has reached in spite of the bias against her gender. She showed America that there was nothing wrong with having an educated, free-thinking woman as first lady. She went on to win Senatorial elections twice.

However, I don't consider her some great champion for women's rights. To me, she is one of those women that climb to the top and then remove the ladder.

[Life Long Dem]

96. LOL!

GE-P can look like kindergarten.

[blogslut]

105. And this is where I insert a quote from Madeline Albright

"Anybody who thinks the world would be a better place if run by women doesn't remember high school."

I know women. I am one. We've got our good qualities and our bad qualities. I've known numerous women that have no interest in leveling the playing field for other females. I've also encountered a good deal of sexism from males. Both sexes have members who would choose to keep all the power to themselves.

My parents did not raise me to look at my gender as some sort of burden. I am a human first, a woman second.

:hi:

[elehhhhna]

128. SHe climbed to the top on Bill's coattails. That's why she's no poster-child for

women's rights & equality.

[Scout]

148. perhaps Bill rose to the top because she was the one pushing him n/t

[DJ13]

12. Hillary has been able to use sexism as a shield and sword to get what she wants

[Writer]

18. So you're saying that... and correct me if I'm wrong...

that although she deals with sexism, she's not supposed to point out sexism surrounding the campaign?

[Lucky 13]

35. No she claims sexism at every available opportunity...

even when it doesn't exist. Thereby she attempts to absolve herself from criticism by hiding behind her claims of sexism.

She doesn't like being called on the carpet for something? It's SEXIST!
She doesn't like being called a LIAR? It's SEXIST!

It's all bullshit. And as a woman, it's really fucking pissing me off.

[Writer]

41. Do you think that the fact that there was no public outcry over the...

well publicized "iron my shirt" sign at Hillary Clinton's rally is a sign of a sexist society? Or one that is less tolerant of a woman running for the White House?

[SoonerPride]

43. What sort of outcry do you want?

It was dumb.

There I said it.

[Texas Hill Country]

49. what would happen if someone had a sign that said "pick my cotton" or something equal at Obama rally

The public would freak the hell out.


that is the dispairity.


both are equally as horrible. Yet they are treated differently.

[Lucky 13]

Ok wait

1) I don't think they are exactly equal. American women were not enslaved, lynched, whipped, tortured, taken from their homeland, and their families torn apart only to have a nation built upon their breaking backs.

2) I really do think that people like that need to be viewed like the anti-gay military funeral protesters or the KKK rallies. THE BEST thing to do is ignore them because everytime they get coverage, it gives them a voice. People THAT STUPID don't deserve to get a second glance or any media attention. What good will it do? It's ONE IDIOT

[Writer]

62. Women did not get the vote until 1920. n/t

[Lucky 13]

67. Yes I am aware of the womens suffrage movement.

that doesn't change any of the facts I stated above.
:shrug:

[Writer]

75. If a woman runs for president less than 100 years from the time that...

women won the vote, then I think this says a lot about how women have had to strive even farther in order to earn a part of the political process.

We're 51% of the population... now, exactly how many woman senators are there?

[Texas Hill Country]

85. there is 1 AA in congress for every 900,000 AA's, there's 1 Woman in Congress for every 2.6mil women

[Lucky 13]

136. You actually make an excellent point.

I'll give you that one.

[mitchum]

89. And that was engineered in order for WASP women to counter the votes...

of those "nasty" recently arrived immigrant males
An ugly and unpleasant little truth.
Often the gains for one group (even the distaff one) come at the expense of another

[Lucky 13]

55. No, I think people assumed that guy was the village half-wit.

I heard it was some radio show or website prank or something. those people are SO STUPID they don't deserve ANY attention.... just like Rev. Fred and his brigade of funeral protesters. Best thing to do with idiots is to IGNORE THEM and NOT GIVE THEM A VOICE.

[Texas Hill Country]

86. why is a sexist radio show prank ok tho, and racist comments are HORRENDOUS

you have to admit, there is a large disparity in the way sexism is treated in this society.

[JVS]

109. When did Rush Limbaugh get fired for singing "Barack the Magic Negro"?

What some asshole does for radio doesn't always translate into public outrage.

[Writer]

112. Oh God - he sure f'ing should have been fired.

I remember him getting some backlash for that... but then I believe many dismissed it for being bloated, racist Rush.

It didn't take long for CBS radio and MSNBC to remove Imus, though.

[Lucky 13]

135. Oh, I didn't say it was ok and certainly didn't mean to insinuate that.

All I'm saying is that there is some stupidity in this world that doesn't even warrant a response. Scolding these people won't change their mind and for better or worse, it's covered under free speech so it's not like we can STOP it. So if there's nothing we can do to STOP it the next best thing we can do is to IGNORE them and not give them a forum in our media.

Shit like "Iron my Shirt" and "Barack the Magic Negro" and protesting about gays at military funerals and KKK rallies. All are AWFUL. But if we were to create some sort of national outrage every time some idiot did something like this 1) the ONLY thing on the news would be this shit because the world is FULL OF IT (you think the news sucks NOW?) and 2) we'd be giving them exactly what they want - a forum through which to spread the hate.

The best way to handle people like this is to IGNORE THEM. BUT be vigilant so that when it crosses the line that seperates MORONS exercising their right to free speech and LEGAL issues like discrimination or harassment or other related crimes, then it's our job to step in and bring down the hammer. HARD. Make it HURT. Make an EXAMPLE of them. Let everyone know that you can be as sexist and racist as your black little heart desires, but when those ideas translate into crimes, we, as a society WILL NOT ACCEPT IT.

Look, getting upset every time you see an example of sexist, racial or other discriminatory thinking, speech, writings, etc. accomplishes NOTHING. Better though is to fight through it, rise above it, succeed in spite of it and exercise every legal option to stomp it out. (That's what REALLY pisses them off.) But complaining about it incessently doesn't change ANYTHING... it just makes people think you are a belly-acher whether you are or not.

Ok? Truce? or at least agree to disagree?

[Writer]

138. I would totally agree with you, however...

that is not how "the public" at large (if one can call it that) responded to parallel examples of sexism and racism in this campaign. From my vantage point, I saw that one form of prejudice became much more egregious than another in the public's mind.

As far as trying to "rise above it," that is up to the individual. I don't think all women will respond to sexism the same way, as no two experiences with sexism are the same. Sometimes it's just a silly comment, but sometimes it's much more engendered sexism in our society, such as what is represented on those signs. We can dismiss it, but I think completely forgetting about it is dangerous. We need to reflect on what subtexts lent to forming those signs or statements, and what that means for women in politics in the future. Hillary Clinton is a brilliant, capable woman who will do an excellent job as president (I don't buy the entire "liar" meme in full, btw.) Now you can say all you want about her campaign, but here is this brilliant woman who has to run for president in a society who hasn't shed itself of its misgivings about powerful women.

[dchill]

93. And imaginary snipers...

only fire at women.

[totodeinhere]

79. I'm sure that any women has been affected by sexism.

And any black person has been affected by racism. But I don't see that as a reason to decide to vote for either candidate.

[Liberal Gramma]

129. Amen! the voice of reason.

[Mimosa]

179. I'm sure that any women has been affected by sexism, any black by racism...

Totodeinhere, I totally agree with you.

As somebody else said, I'm a human first a woman second. I support and vote for the best person for the presidency, who happens to be Barack Obama.

At least Obama doesn't make up whoppers re: imaginary snipers. LOL!

[elehhhhna]

124. Her marriage to a Governor and President surely propelled her to her

current status, and protected her from what we normal average women deal with.

[Writer]

140. Oh... is that all? Just her marriage to Bill that did it for her?

Given that many women are married to governors and presidents, I wonder what skill sets Hillary Clinton possesses that distinguishes her from the rest? Hrmmm.....

[elehhhhna]

143. Her credentials as an attorney obviously gave her the qualifications, if not he skills, to accept

the jobs that quite possibly conflicted with her husband's responsibilities, duh. Do I have to actually tell you this to be "fair and balanced"?

Would Michelle Obama have her big job without her husbands percieved clout? Maybe. Maybe not.

[roguevalley]

154. forgive me, but she has opportunity out the wazoo and has blown it

she has the right to blow it. she didn't have to but she did. that is her fault, not mine or anyone else's. She is just not up to the challenge. But she had the chance.

she just doesn't win. she may have tons of skillz but the people are voting here and unless you are saying the most of this country are sexists, including the zillions of women that are on obama's side because they CHOSE him and PREFER him, then there is something wrong with the way you think. Hillary Clinton is not a victim of sexism. She is a victim of her own ambitions and complacency. she is a victim of poor choices and blind ambition. She also believes its her turn, a thought that makes me heave -I loathe entitlement thinking- and she is being rejected by a better candidate, running a better campaign and shaping himself for the moment at hand. Nothing sexist about that. Hillary just sucks this time out of the gate.

[EnviroBat]

2. Welcome to ignore.

It's getting stupid now with these kinds of posts. I'll be filtering them out from now on.

[11 Bravo]

42. Please stop wasting bandwidth. If you want to filter, then do it.

Either way, no one else gives a flying fuck what you choose to do.

[goldcanyonaz]

4. Around here? No one! Sexism is only a figment of our imaginations.

We're woman after all so we suffer from emotional ups and downs caused by our menstrual cycles, or lack there of.

[SoonerPride]

5. "Victims" are not Senators with $109 million dollars.

Really.

[Writer]

6. So a woman with money is immune to sexism?

[SoonerPride]

17. Not immune, but not a victim either. Victims suffer.

I know victims.

Hillary is not a victim.

She has encountered sexism. But she is not a victim.

You may think this is semantics, but I see a distinction.

[Writer]

19. Okay... so spell out the distinction of how one who endures sexism is not a victim.

[SoonerPride]

25. Has sexism ever prevented her from getting a job?

Getting ahead? Making her suffer?

Has she had to hear stupidity? Well, we all have. I'm gay and have heard epithets. Big deal.

I've also been nearly killed when a group of people jumped me outside a bar and nearly beat me to death. THAT is point where you are a victim. Sticks and stones can break my bones, but words can yadda yadda yadda.

It takes more than your feelings getting hurt to be a victim. There has to be real opportunity or physical costs.

In her case, I've yet to see how her gender has impeded her meteoric rise to wealth and fame.

[Writer]

31. Well I don't agree with you're definition of victim. I think it's extremely narrow...

and apparently you're only associating it with physical violence. I don't agree. If you've dealt with something as subversive as sexual harassment, then you'd understand how much companies deal with their situations with their lawyers beneath the table, then quietly suggest you find other work where you'll be "happier."

But back to Clinton... Sexism IS preventing her from achieving one job, at least: The White House.

[SoonerPride]

34. Then EVERYONE is a victim at ALL TIMES

Your definition is entirely too broad.

And no, it is is not her gender which is preventing her from getting elected. It is not sexism writ large upon society. It is her actions. And her lies. And her incompetent campaign.

She is not a "victim" by not winning the election.

Your argument falls apart from its own inherent lack of structure.

[Writer]

45. I think that everyone who has had the displeasure of dealing with a sexual harassment situation...

can attest to being a victim.

I for one.

You can call her a liar, you can say that her campaign hasn't gone well, etc., but to say that sexism isn't also a factor is wrong.

I took a class a while back on journalism and American politics, and one of the discussions we had concerned a "social hierarchy" when it comes to specific classes of people achieving power. It goes like this: White men, African-American men, White women, African-American women, etc.

[Debi]

94. You have mentioned sexual harassment a couple of times, but what does that have to do

with Hillary Clinton? Was she sexually harassed?

[Writer]

114. It's more of a statement underscoring that I believe we live in a sexist society.

So when one of these "women-types" run for office, I think it's a still a tough sell in this country.

[Debi]

90. Sexism is keeping Hillary Clinton from becoming President?

Really? If I don't support Hillary Clinton in the presidential race it's because I'm sexist?

No other reasons come to mind that might keep her from becoming President? None?

[Writer]

99. No, it's not the key reason, but it's a factor, I think.

I'm posing an extreme corollary because there has been so much talk about how "everything's now sexism," and that it's gone too far... but I think it's a terrible error to think that sexism plays little to no significant role here. It most certainly does play a part.

A few polls over the last six months indicate that less people are comfortable with a woman for president than with an African-American for president, as one example.

[Liberal Gramma]

122. I don't think so

What is preventing her from getting the White House? A badly-run campaign and high negatives. The latter might be due in a SMALL part to sexism, but largely due to right-wing vitriol spread over a decaded. The badly-run campaign she takes credit for herself.

[VotesForWomen]

56. actually yes; she applied to NASA and was told "we are not accepting female applicants." but nevermi

nevermind; we know there is no sexism in america and no woman has ever suffered a whit from it.

[SoonerPride]

65. Link? I've never heard that. If true, then that is credible evidence of sexism

victimizing Hillary.

[VotesForWomen]

168. it is absolutely true. hell, i'm 42 and i've had bosses say "we don't need no women here" to my face

and does anyone not believe that bosses who are sexist don't always come right out and say it, as in the incidents just mentioned? the fact is that many times a woman doesn't get the job, or the raise, or the promotion and they don't come right out and say "It's because you're a woman." doesn't mean that's not the reason behind it. it is so tiresome trying to convince the willfully ignorant that sexism is real, because they will deny it no matter what.

[Liberal Gramma]

126. That was then, this is now

There are female astronauts now, have been for some years. C'mon, things are a lot better than they used to be for women. Title IX made a big difference in opportunities for women, and so did the civil rights movement. It's still not perfect, but a lot better. Just because this particular woman might not succeed in her bid for the White House is not proof positive that sexism is responsible for the failure.

[VotesForWomen]

169. more strawmen; whether hillary wins or loses, sexism is still real and prevalent. nt

[elehhhhna]

131. We hardly owe her the dammned Presidency b/c NASA blew her off in the 60's...

and, btw, she prolly made THAT up, too.

[VotesForWomen]

167. "NASA blew her off," because she was female, but sexism doesn't exist. and yes, the incident happen

happened.

[elehhhhna]

185. poor thing. it obviously ruined her life.

[Mimosa]

181. Which did Hillary try to join first? Marines or NASA ?

Which did Hillary try to join first: the Marines or NASA? LOL!

[elehhhhna]

125. LOL. She was hired as a PARTNER by the Rose law firm when Bill became Gov. Coincidence?

Then named to the board of Walmart.

She's the ultimate affirmative action lady -- thanks to her husband.


btw, Conflict of interest, anyone?

[OzarkDem]

20. The road to power and wealth was easy?

Do you think Hillary never had to deal with sexism to get where she is today?

[VotesForWomen]

47. so it's okay to call rich black folks N**gers? please, you 'distinction' is an absurd attempt to di

dismiss sexism. just because hill may have achieved considerable success in some areas does not mean that she has never been a victim of sexism.

[SoonerPride]

52. Then everyone is a victim all the time. Racism, sexism, homophobia, ageism, religious bigotry.

We're all vicitms then.

[VotesForWomen]

58. to some extent, we are all subject to discrimination; of course the extent matters. nt

[Sparkly]

110. Yes.

Who could argue with that? :hi:

[Writer]

61. Who is a victim of sexism, in your opinion?

I must know.

[SoonerPride]

69. My mother.

There I said it

[Sparkly]

116. If you're treated unfairly, are you not a "victim" of unfair treatment?

Is there some measure of suffering that has to be reached? (Not in my dictionary.)

[Clintonista2]

7. But Im assuming that senators with million dollar book deals are still victims of racism

Right?

[lastliberalintexas]

54. I wonder if that poster has you on ignore

Otherwise, I'd love to hear an answer to this question myself.


Most of the Obama supporters are great, but the ones who are bad make the Clinton contingent of a year ago look like freaking cherubs.

[SoonerPride]

130. No, he encounters racism. But I'd hardly say he's a victim.

As Hillary encountered sexism all through her life. But to say she is a victim, I don't buy it.

[GoneOffShore]

8. Oh boy -

:popcorn:

Members of the Church of Our Lady of Perpetual Outrage -The Sister's Flaming Machete of Courteous Charity Hit Squad are on their way to your door as we speak.

[SoonerPride]

11. Piffle

[GoneOffShore]

30. An Excellent Word

And one that could be used to define the OP, if I were that inclined to snarkyness.

Oh, what the hell - It's piffle and not very good piffle at that.

[Writer]

15. Would it be inappropriate to say that we're all on our periods now...

hence the "outrage" you speak of? Or would that be against DU rules, and therefore deletable?

:shrug:

[GoneOffShore]

26. ....

:eyes:

[Writer]

51. C'mon, a little levity here!

[Texas Hill Country]

87. 1. her husband earned most of that... 2. they dont HAVE $109 million 3. irrelevant

[woolldog]

10. ignore

[GarbagemanLB]

13. Sexism is wrong, and so is playing the victim card whenever legitimate criticisms are raised of you.

[Writer]

21. So you're saying sexism doesn't exist within this campaign?

[GarbagemanLB]

28. No, I am saying that her supporters and HER have been all too willing to label any criticism as

sexism. I am not ignorant, I know it still exists and plays a role. Criticisms of her appearance and her crying are wrong. However, she has been all too willing to play the victim of the mean 'big boys'. I would hope you would be intellectually honest enough with yourself to see that she has used the gender card to her advantage.

[Writer]

48. Can I ask you a specific example (s) of when Hillary Clinton herself...

has mentioned sexism?

[bigbrother05]

84. I wish we could level the playing field

[Texas Hill Country]

91. and Obama never played the race card? really?

[redqueen]

14. We all are... it doesn't mean we get to blame our failures

on the idiots out there.

Rise above, remember?

[Writer]

22. So... women can't point it out?

Women are supposed to just grin and bear it?

[redqueen]

32. Not all "pointing out" is equal.

If one is pointing it out in order to say "This is why I haven't achieved what I could have, had it not been for sexism," then no, IMO that's a cop out. (Note: this wouldn't have applied before 1960... as the way laws were set up, it would have been a logical statement at that time.)

If one is pointing it out to say "this doesn't help, we should change it" then that's different. That's raising awareness and not trying to avoid accountability.

[OzarkDem]

27. The role of a feminist pioneer

When you're on of the "first" women to blaze a new trail, calling out sexism and righting the wrong makes the path easier for those who follow.

If you've ever been a "trailblazing" woman in a field you know the fist few women catch all the flak and feel its their duty to expose it and use it to change the system so all the women who follow will not have to fight those battles.

I'm sure there are more than a few "trailblazing" women here on DU who know what I'm talking about and to those who have followed in our footsteps - you're very welcome, we were happy to do it.

[redqueen]

38. Calling out sexism is one thing.

Blaming sexism for failures is another.

[OzarkDem]

46. If you're the target of sexism, its the same thing

If you're the first woman down the trail who gets treated unfairly because of sexism, that's what happens. Sexism interferes with women who are trying to accomplish something and causes them to be treated unfairly.

Unless there are some other women Dems running for president, I don't see who else could be getting hurt by a sexist double standard in a presidential campaign. :shrug:

[redqueen]

59. No candidate is treated fairly.

And again, there's a difference between pointing it out and saying it's a problem... and claiming it's the reason you're losing.

[OzarkDem]

64. And no other Dem woman has run for president lately

Its a different playing field.

[Redbear]

16. She has been the victim of sexism. All female politicians are to an extent.

It is remarkable that she has accomplished as much as she has. Her ability to fight through all that is amazing.


I still think Sen. Obama is the better candidate, and that is why I voted for him.

There are legitimate reasons to not support Sen. Clinton that have nothing to do with sexism. However, the existence of those reasons does not mean that there hasn't been lots of sexism from the media, some Obama supporters, and some voters. There has been plenty.

While I think its silly to say sexism is the only reason she is behind, I think it is just as silly to say that it has not been a factor.

[Writer]

24. Much agreed. I personally think this issue has transcended Hillary Clinton's campaign.

It's actually - and I think it's going to become - a greater study into women running for president in the early Twenty-First Century.

[Jamastiene]

146. Best answer in the whole thread. n/t

[txaslftist]

23. This is the randomnest question everlasting.

[Lucky 13]

29. Do you still beat your wife?

That is essentially the loaded question your post poses. There's no good answer and you are trying to trap people into flamebaiting.

GET REAL. No one said that sexism doesn't exist. No one says that women aren't victimized by sexism in our country or the rest of the world.

NO ONE. Find ONE POST saying that and I'll be SHOCKED.

I don't think you will find ANYONE that tells you that sexism DOESN'T EXIST. Ofcourse it does. Go to Afghanistan. Go to South Africa. Look at wage earnings (men vs. women). Sexism is very much alive in the world.

HOWEVER...I personally don't believe Hillary has been a victim of it, at least not to the degree her supporters claim. To her supporters EVERYTHING is sexism. And frankly it's pissing me off, not just because it's BULLSHIT, but because they are claiming sexism for ridiculous things, it makes REAL claims of sexism less powerful.

Your post sucks.

[GoneOffShore]

33. You've done it now.

You're going to get the :spank:.

Watch out.

[Lucky 13]

37. For what exactly?

[GoneOffShore]

44. I meant to include

the :sarcasm: smiley.

[Lucky 13]

53. Yeah, I always forget that tag...

I fully expect to be skewered with a spit and roasted for this one. So be it. This is getting ridiculous.

[Writer]

40. So wouldn't Clinton's exposure to sexism be a bit of detriment to her?

PS: I don't think everything is sexism. That whole Obama quote about Hillary "periodically" feeling down was rather lame, imho.

PPS: Relax a little.

[Lucky 13]

50. No more than Obama's exposure to racism...

There's sexism, racism, xenophobia, homophobia, reverse racism and all other kinds of isms everyone has to face on a daily basis. And it's much more severe for regular people than a first lady, senator from New York, and candidate for president could every possibly understand.

I don't think Hillary has been deterred any more by sexism than Obama has by racism. But by CONSTANTLY screaming sexism her supporters have made it lose all meaning. You're like the boy who cried wolf. (Is that sexist? Do I need to say "you're like the girl or boy who cried wolf?)

I will relax when people pose reasonable questions. Not loaded questions that have no right answer to them. The question is flamebait.

What I want to know is when you are going to drop claims of sexism and let your candidate take the heat on her own. When can you try to defend her with facts, history, documents, statements, video, etc instead of just screaming "SEXISM"? Cause 99% of the stuff I hear from Hillary supporters is neither based in fact nor reality.

Whatever criticism she is getting she has brought onto herself for lying blatantly to the people, having innumerable shady conflicts of interest, and negativity and venom being slung from her campaign 24/7. It's got NOTHING to do with her being a woman. Trust me, we have PLENTY of other material to work with. Everytime she tells a story, we got something new. Whatever she gets she's earned.

Look, we've debated the issue of sexism, the use of the word "bitch", "cunt", "dick", "prick", "sonofabitch", and any number of other related topics INTO THE GROUND. So at this point, can we AGREE TO DISAGREE and just move on?

[Writer]

57. I agree about Obama. I think that he also deals with racism in this campaign.

Without a doubt.

I will stop talking about sexism when I no longer see signs that say "iron my shirt" or Facebook groups that tell Clinton to "make me a sandwich."

I will stop talking about sexism when I no longer hear or read implications that because Bill Clinton has a political stance, Hillary Clinton also shares that stance by proxy (such as NAFTA.)

I sure as hell hope that we don't stop talking about sexism, and in the same way that we don't stop talking about any form of prejudice as long as prejudice exists. You can say that the heat of the election causes many of us to see sexism where sexism doesn't exist, but I would posit the opposite and say that we're also dismissing examples of sexism where sexism is strongly apparent.

I think these are important issues concerning America's political structure, and after this election year passes, we will all explore racism, sexism and the like more deeply as a nation.

[Lucky 13]

66. Ok SO...

1) Take it up with the "iron my shirt" people and the "make me a sandwich" people. I don't find that acceptable. I don't think many people here on DU find it acceptable. And talking about it here isn't stopping THEM.

2) People will stop equating Bill's political stances with Hillary's political stances when SHE doesn't personally benefit from them. Example #1, NAFTA passes. Bill leaves white house. Bill makes killing in part due to NAFTA policies. Bill's money is Hill's money. Ergo, Hillary is a direct beneficiary of NAFTA. WHAT'S MORE, she promoted it herself. She gave speeches promoting it. This means one of two things... EITHER she really DOES support NAFTA and is now denying it because it is politically convenient for her to do so OR 2) She acted against what she believed was right for the country because her hubby asked her to. There were plenty of other issues she could have worked on if she didn't agree with his stance.
Example #2: Columbia Trade Deal. Bill is for Columbia Trade deal. Bill makes $800,000 working to advance Columbian trade deal. Bill's money is Hill's money. Ergo, Hillary is a direct beneficiary of his work on the Columbian trade deal.
IT'S CALLED PERCEPTION OF CONFLICT OF INTEREST. Public figures are supposed to go out of their way to avoid and end any appearance of conflicts of interest. If she doesn't get that by now, that is a problem.

3) Talking about racism and sexism over and over and over and bemoaning it's effect on our candidates incessantly HELPS NO ONE. It changes no one's mind. And in this context where two sides are so bitterly entrenched for their candidates, it will ALWAYS inevitably get UGLY. Why not just acknowledge that both candidates have some hindrances because of racism and sexism, call it an even playing field and leave it at that. But screaming RACISM and SEXISM every time someone says something you don't like about your candidate is just SILLY.

[bunnies]

36. I'm a woman and I'm not a victim of sexism.

Thats all I have to say about that.

[redqueen]

39. Good point... the word "victim" is loaded... I'm no VICTIM either.

Sure I've come up against it... we all have.

But are we victims? Hell no.

Thanks for clarifying that. :hi:

[bunnies]

78. Exactly!

Very few women get it, sadly. :hi:

[Sparkly]

106. Interesting...

What makes a victim a victim?

How is someone who's experienced sexism not a victim? And what are they? ("Recipients?")

And finally, what makes the word loaded? I'm not quarreling with you -- just finding this a striking thing to think about, myself.

[redqueen]

117. Well like I said, it's a loaded term.

So yeah... technically speaking, I've been a "victim" of sexism... but the word victim carries a lot of baggage... specifically the baggage that the person who uses it too often is displaying a "victim mentality".

One can be a victim of a crime... a victim of murder... a victim of con artists... there's all kinds of ways one can be a victim. But when you cross the line from saying that you're a victim of something and addressing it, to giving the appearance that you're carrying it around with you and waving it around like a flag... I think that's where it gets to a point when you're no longer drawing attention to the unjust treatment you had to deal with... but you risk at least giving the appearance of blaming the things that happen in your life on whatever it was that victimized you.

That's why I think some are saying that crying sexism over every little thing is actually counterproductive... because instead of paying attention to the real problem... people start noticing the *perceived* victim mentality of the people more than the actual crimes.

[Sparkly]

119. Hmm...

Maybe like so many other words, it got loaded by the rightwing. You know, people who fight for equal rights are "whiners" playing "cards" and seeking "special rights," etc. So when they rightly claim they're victims of discrimination, the word "victim" is mocked with all that rightwing garbage. It's easier for them to believe they aren't victims of anything.

People who make excuses are a different matter, and are only a percentage of the victims of discrimination.

[redqueen]

120. No... I don't think it's that cut and dry.

Bill Cosby famously tried to make the same point.

Bob Herbert has tried. Obama is trying.

[Sparkly]

144. Bill Cosby made what point?

I thought he said being a victim wasn't an excuse for copping out in some way, no?

[SoonerPride]

132. I'd say she overcame sexism, not that she was a victim of it.

She overcame an obstacle (or mutliple obstacles), not that she was defeated by it.

[Beausoir]

161. As a victim of rape when I was 17 years old, allow me to call you out on your smug assumptions.

Bravo for you that have not been victimized by sexism.

Pat yourself on the back. Look the other way about sexism and violence against women. Anything to bolster your defense of your political candidate.

I WAS a victim of rape. When I was 17 years old. I am 45 now. And I am STILL a victim of rape.
I live it every fucking day of my life.

I was raped on the front steps of my parent's house in 1980. It was March 20. A cold and snowy night and I was walking home from a friend's house.

I am still a victim and I always will be.

People like you, who have no idea what my life is like, make me literally sick to my stomach.

You enjoy your smug self-rightousness. Keep on hurling your rightous indignation at women who refuse to put up with the hate.

And pray to god that you don't end up walking in my shoes.

(This is the second time in my entire membership of DU that I have mentioned what happened to me.)

[redqueen]

184. It's not smart to make assumptions.

I've been raped too. More than once. I'm not going to go into any lurid details. I don't see any point in it. I don't see any point in carrying it around with me. It happened. It's over. I was a victim of rape. But it's over. I'm not anymore.

As for the stones you so self-righteously hurled at me with your talk of being made sick to your stomach, I hope you take some time to consider what made you assume you knew anything about me... and what made you think you had the right to act as if you're better than I am.

There's a story I'd like to share with you.

Two monks are walking along a path, and they come across a stream. They see a woman there who has a bad leg and is afraid to cross for fear of slipping. One of the monks picks her up and carries her across. After they reach the other side, he puts her down, she thanks him, then they go on their way.

A while later one monk says to the other: Why did you do that? You know it is a sin to touch a woman?

The second monk answers: I put her down a long time ago, are you still carrying her?

[Debi]

98. Can I join the 'I'm not a victim' club too?

Does it exist? Yep

Have I seen it/dealt with it? Yep

Am I a victim? No.

[Writer]

101. I have been victimized, but I am not a victim, either, because I did rise above it.

But I will fight like hell to make sure other women aren't victimized either and I'm not going to overlook examples of sexism simply because we're in the heat of a campaign.

Can we at least be fair and agree on that?

[Sparkly]

113. So victims of robbery, rape, racial discrimination etc. aren't "victims?"

Only people who fail to "rise above it" are victims? Victim = "loser?"

[Writer]

121. That's what I'm reading above...

perhaps I've erred by assuming that same illogic.

I have to confess. I suffered terribly ten years ago when dealing with my situation. I tried to kill myself. I'd say, all in all, that it was the worst time of my life.

But I do not let that define me. I am well past that part of my life.

But according to some women, sexism only occurs when men make silly comments or whistle at you from construction sites. If some women only knew what's actually happening out there in corporate America, they'd think again.

[zulchzulu]

60. So if any woman applies for a job and doesn't get it, it's sexism?

How binary.

:crazy:

[Writer]

63. Are all women equally judged with men on their merits now?

Did sexism just dry up?

[FlyingTiger]

73. That's not even remotely close to what he said.

And you know it.

[zulchzulu]

82. So I guess your answer is "yes"...

If a woman gets rejected from a job, dimes to doughnuts it's some sexist pig mother f*cker tearing down the wall and duct taping the glass ceiling?

Wow. Weird.

[VotesForWomen]

170. who actually said that? links please? oh yeah, you were just making up strawmen. nt

[dailykoff]

68. Fine, but men are also victims of sexism

for example, when they get turned down for jobs so that institutions can fulfill affirmative action quotas, and yes it happens all the time.

[dailykoff]

70. Corollary: Obama is also a victim of sexism

by women who want to elect a woman. In fact, I'd say he's got the better case.

Aren't you glad you kicked that dead horse again? :shrug:

[Writer]

72. Yup. If a woman explicitly doesn't vote for male candidates - including Obama - then he...

too would be a victim of sexism.

[FlyingTiger]

74. Again, not even close to what that poster said.

You're far too good at twisting words to be able to pretend that you didn't know that.

[Writer]

71. Affirmative action... actually that would be racism...

BTW: Affirmative action never had quotas. Quotas are illegal.

[dailykoff]

151. "X is an Equal Opportunity Employer. . ."

Have you ever applied for a job?

[Writer]

174. Yes. But there is a difference between "equal opportunity" and "equal number."

The idea is that a company has to actively seek and interview minority candidates. After a candidate is chosen, they have to fill out paperwork for the EEOC indicating who they interviewed and why they didn't hire him/her.

[lastliberalintexas]

76. Wow, nice right wing BS there about affirmative action

Yet men still comprise the vast majority of CEOS and higher level managment personnel in this country, still account for the vast majority of elected officials in this country, and women still earn about 75 cents for every dollar earned by a man for equivalent work and are still raped every 10 seconds. Perhaps we actually need to legalize quotas. :)

[FlyingTiger]

77. What in GOD'S name does rape have to do with any of that?

Really. I'd love to know.

[lastliberalintexas]

81. If you don't understand how rape plays into discussions

about gender inequality in this country, then I'm sorry, but I can't help you. It's just one more stat on the way in which women are treated by men in this country, and one more way in which women are often brutalized by the system, especially when they try to press charges. Just as heart disease is the number 1 killer of women, yet the medical research into that disease has focused almost exclusively on men.

It's just as legitimate to bring up the death penalty in discussions about race. A black man is more than 12 times (I think?) more likely than a white man to receive the death penalty for equivalent criminal conduct. Wouldn't you agree that sentencing issues also are relevant to the way in which Blacks are treated in this country?

[FlyingTiger]

88. You were responding to a post about affirmative action.

In fact, it was in the title of your post.

[lastliberalintexas]

92. And yet the thread is about sexism

Sorry that it bothers you so much that I exceeded the permissible scope of discussion. Feel free to ignore my posts as my punishment. Thanks. :)

[Ikonoklast]

80. I wish I was a victim of sexism like Hillary was

Then I'd be a multi-millionaire and not have to worry about how I'm going to feed my family.

I'll take some prejudice along with the sexism as long as I can play the victim all the way to the bank.

Clinton is playing feminists for fools. She lives a life so rarified to the common person that it is laughable.

[lastliberalintexas]

83. I agree somewhat, so long as you also feel that way about

Michael Jordan, Tiger Woods and Obama and racism.


I remember a Molly Ivins column back when Jackie Kennedy passed away, and people were gushing about the way she'd raised such wonderful children as a single mother. Ivins responded by writing about the true hero single mothers/parents of the world, the ones who are struggling to survive and feed and clothe their kids. She said that Kennedy had done a good job, but that it was much easier to do so with a few trust funds from which to draw money. While she wasn't slamming Kennedy, she was righfully redirecting public sympathy to the people who were truly deserving of it.

[Sparkly]

111. Another man who knows better than feminists when they're being "played for fools."

Your superior wisdom should set these poor feminists straight. :eyes:

[New Dawn]

115. Exactly

And women who are very oppressed (such as Wal-Mart employees) were actually exploited by Hillary Clinton when she sat on the corporate board of that giant corporation.

[Maddy McCall]

95. The funniest part of this whole primary is watching women who used to....

be vigilant at DU against sexism now arguing FOR it.

Odd.

[lastliberalintexas]

97. I agree Maddy

I'm not a supporter of either and will just vote for the nominee in Nov. But I find many of the Obama supporters at this point to be hilarious, in an odd way. Though maybe that isn't the right word, either?

Sexism isn't the only issue they've done a 180 on, either. Media manipulation now is also good, since the media has gone after her more than their candidate. :shrug:

[VotesForWomen]

171. well, the kool-aide is strong indeed. nt

[jgraz]

100. Your logic does not resemble our Earth logic

:crazy:

[Writer]

103. And I say that earth logic is not always rational.

Because people, typically, are not rational beings.


We do have our moments, though.


:crazy:

[Political Heretic]

102. Who said that? Right, no one.

Just checking in.

[Writer]

104. There have been at least two threads completely eschewing the idea...

that sexism plays a role in this campaign.

Was it said? Yyyyyup.

[Political Heretic]

108. Where?

I apparently missed them.

[redqueen]

118. Yeah, I'd like to see those too.

Cause while it may play A role... it's far from THE reason she's losing.

[Writer]

127. Your thread is certainly one... I guess that's why you asked.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x5426768

So we've mentioned sexism so often that it's lost it's meaning, eh? I differ.

And will you at least admit that many, many posters have said that Hillary is just "playing the victim" or is "playing the sexism card?"

Are those also not implications that sexism doesn't play a role here?

[Political Heretic]

158. That's not what my thread says. You can't just "invent" words, that's called lying

I didn't say mentioning real instances of sexism too often has caused sexism to lose its meaning.

I said falsely applying the term and charge of sexism as a political tactic - the politicization of oppression - trivializes real sexism and waters down the term so that it becomes meaningless.

[Writer]

160. Yes, however I do think you risk completely negating real moments of sexism when they occur.

I think Skinner made some exceptionally good points about this possibility. I think I also responded in there listing some specific examples that, in my mind, constituted sexism surrounding Hillary Clinton that got scant if not any attention at all. It's not just stuff that happens on the surface. It's also deep within the subtext of our speech and assumptions.

[Political Heretic]

162. Risk is not "completely eschewing" And I agree Skinner raised some good points.

That would be mission accomplished for the thread... to promote some good dialog.

[Writer]

165. Well... that's the only reason to start a thread like yours or mine.

I completely did not agree with the premise of your thread, so I decided to pose the alternative corollary in order to encourage thinking about this issue in a new way. I think it's gone too far in the direction of claiming that cries of sexism = a political tactic. I admit there are moments, but I also think it's dangerous to say that sexism hasn't played its part regarding Clinton's run.

The irony to this entire debate is that we are trying to elect a Democratic president because we are afraid of what another four years of Republican rule in the White House will effect who's nominated to the Supreme Court. I'm sure a few women at least fear what will happen to Roe v. Wade were that to happen.

[Sparkly]

107. Interesting, provocative subject, Writer.

I love provocative subjects, myself!

Lots of food for thought here. :hi:

[Danger Mouse]

123. yeah, hillary's been a victim of sexism...and obama a victim of racism...

your point?

[elehhhhna]

133. Her fear of looking soft probably motivated her iraq & Iran war okay-dokeys,

so in a way she's a victim of her own sexism.

[elehhhhna]

134. Her fear of looking soft probably motivated her iraq & Iran war okay-dokeys,

so in a way she's a victim of her own sexism.

[cbayer]

137. The obvious answer is that women as a group are victims of sexism

and the statistics back that up:

Women high school graduates can expect to be earning 15% less than their male counterparts by the time they are 24.

1 in 4 women will experience domestic violence at some point in their lives.

70% of people worldwide who are living in absolute poverty (that is, living on less than one dollar a day) are Women.

Women do 75% of the world’s work yet own only 10% of the world wealth.

54% of women suffer workplace harassment.

Women constitute only 12% of the police force. 80% of policewomen have experienced sexual harassment.

Out of over 180 countries, only 11 are currently headed by women.

The two additional questions you ask are:

Are you personally a victim of sexism? That question can really only be answered by the individual.

Is Hillary Clinton a victim of sexism? Here comes the fight. Those that support her can see very clearly that she is a victim. They also see that she has and continues to battle sexism to the benefit of all women. Many of those who do not support her don't see it at all, even when it is blatant. They will not allow anything to stand in the way of their personal hatred of her nor give her any credit for the trail she is blazing.

The same can be said for racism in this primary battle.

Thank you for your thought provoking OP.

[Writer]

139. And thank you for your balanced, thoughtful response!

:hi:

[Scout]

150. best response to the OP yet n/t

[cbayer]

152. That is so nice of you!

I rarely get complimented around here, not being a hyper-advocate for either candidate.
:toast:

[Political Heretic]

159. There's more statistics than that -- the feminization of poverty

2 out of every three persons in poverty in the United States are women.

The poverty rate for female headed households is 3 times the national average.


Hillary Clinton, by the way, has been a victim of sexism. I'm not sure how any woman could run for President in this country - or be a public figure of any kind - and not experience sexism. Hillary Clinton has also chosen to use the topic of sexism as a political tactic attempting to diffuse legitimate criticism under a barrage of pity, and under the cries of sexism that are purely political theatre. Both have happened. She both experiences sexism and deliberately charges sexism where she knows none exists because it serves the campaigns political interests.

And here, the subject of sexism in this community is more nefarious, where the accusation of sexism is levied as political tactic against arguments of all sorts that go against the accusers point of view.

[Writer]

164. Dude (dudette?)

I have to say, that criticism cuts both ways. One of McCain's political advisers said on NPR that he would quit the McCain campaign if Obama won the Dem nomination. The implied reason? He does not want to touch racial politics with a ten foot pole. Racism has definitely been employed... and it started with Joe Biden last year after he said the obvious - that Obama is a good speaker.

[Political Heretic]

183. He said a little more than that, but yes - it does cut both ways. However,

I disagree about the sources of the politicization.

With the racism, you have the media politicizing it (as with Biden and many other examples) and Obama downplaying it. With sexism you have the media politicizing it and Hillary Clinton herself actively politicizing it - case in point, her interview with NPR.

Clearly no Clinton support is going to agree with me, and the opinion part of it - if either campaign gratuitously and purposefully politicizes race or sex - will never be resolved to either sides satisfaction.

[Life Long Dem]

141. At some point she needs to show she is a champion and not a victim.

[Writer]

142. The fact that she's still in this damned race is a sign that she's a champion.

[SoonerPride]

145. Then you agree, she overcame sexism and is not a victim.

Thanks for agreeing with me.

[Life Long Dem]

178. I don't see the race the same as you. There is no damning of the race as you see it.

It's no wonder Clinton is losing with your damning the race for her. And a champion don't make finishing the race alone, you need to show leadership and not victimized. Big difference in Obama and Hillary. Obama can handle anything thrown at him and Hillary runs and hides behind Bill. Just my observations.
Hey... would it be a good time to bring up a security breach? ahhhh.. never mind... we can wait.

[Faygo Kid]

147. Hey, here's a monthly contributor to Hillary. Like this one?

Careful how you play the victim card. Your side could do better:

Hold out hope for Hillary and will continue to contribute monthly to her campaign. Fuck Obama

he's still your inexperienced "boy" who will be controlled by all of you white politicians who are really in controll of our government. My apologies for the slur but I don't think things have changed much since the 1860's.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x5440478#5440600

[merh]

149. I survived Katrina - I lost it all and am rebuilding my life

I am not a victim of Katrina, I am a Katrina survivor.

In that same vein, I am not a victim of sexism, I choose not to be -

I choose to make my way despite the obstacles, despite the closed mindedness of others, the stereotypes, including your stereotype.

I am no victim - I am a survivor.

Wish Hillary would have approached things in that way, I would have more respect for her efforts. She has made her choices, if she is a victim it is one of her choices.

[Writer]

156. So we shouldn't fight sexism where it arises?

We shouldn't point it out... we should just grin and bear it, then tell younger women to expect the same?

[merh]

166. Fighting sexism does not equal being a victim

your premise is all females are or have been victims of sexism, I disagree.

You are only a victim of your circumstances if you allow yourself to be.

How is Hillary fighting sexism, what does her life and her candidacy do for females efforts for equality?

[Writer]

173. Holy crap... I'll tell you what this woman is doing...

she's trailblazing. She is forging her way to the White House - and taking an incredible amount of heat while doing so. Hopefully other women will follow her.

The fact that she hasn't just bowed out is a testament to her strength. It's no longer just about her, but about all women.

(It's also about the fact that Barack Obama also can't get the necessary number of delegates to clinch the nomination, so she's staying in so she can prove to the superdelegates that she indeed is a winner who is deserving of the nomination.)

[merh]

177. Sorry, I don't agree with you.

She hasn't done it on her own, she even clings to her husband's experiences as her own. She wasn't president, he was, just because she was married to him doesn't mean she obtained any special skills or experiences that make her more qualified.

The article linked in this OP says it better than I can.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x5068457

See my post in that thread.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=5068457&mesg_id=5095284

What I find most disconcerting are all the cries by her supporters that she is a victim in this campaign because she is a woman. What hog wash. She is a candidate and she has made her experience an issue, thus she has opened the door to discussion relative to her judgment in life and she opened the door to the scrutiny of her husband's administration.

As Bill said, politics is a contact sport, like football, if you don't want to be tackled you need to get out of the game.

Elizabeth Edwards has said it best: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VzRQxxldBvk

[Mimosa]

180. Re: I *survived* Katrina

Another Katrina survivor here, merh. Come visit my forum. Link below.

Re: Hillary and sexism. Racism, sexism all isms are at play in this campaign. Most human beings have something to struggle against and challenges to meet. It's hard not to be a crybaby. I lose respect for Hillary supporters who are supporting her because mainly she's a woman or because they fear black men. And I have heard yellow dog Democrats who support Hillary for both those reasons.

If Hillary somehow wins I can cope with it. But she is very untrustworthy, as is her husband. Both are dishonest and greedy. I don't believe they give a darn about regular people.

[merh]

182. As a survivor, you might be interested in my journal entries

that discuss the candidates Katrina efforts.
This post/entry and the others directly after it contain such discussion.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/merh/100

:toast: Here is to surviving!


and I feel the same way about Hillary as you do, I will vote for her if she gets the nomination, but she is not the better of the two and I don't consider her trustworthy.

[PerfectSage]

153. If manifested itself when she chose a marriage/political alliance with a man who cheated...

...on her from day 1 of their engagement. She helped him become president. But, he's not gonna deliver on his end of the bargain. That was struck back on day 1 of their marriage.

After this campaign fiasco is over, she should wise up and kick that cheatin' pos out of her life.

[Writer]

157. Why is her marriage our business?

[PerfectSage]

163. Why isn't her marriage our business?

Too bad Hili-shit-for-brains-ary never understood... ...decentralized decision making, superior organizational culture etc etc to make me give a fuck about her to vote for her.

Let alone her pathetic sell out marriage. Her marriage is my business, cuz it's one of many reasons why I have contempt for her.

Yeah, I wanta vote for some pos who who does't get effective organizational culture, who centralizes all decision making and authority to herself and a handful of top aides.

That's my fuckin' business. It's why I only have a shitload of contempt for Hillary. Almost as much as I have for Clusterfuck Imbecile in Chief.

[Writer]

172. Okee dokey. n/t

[GoneOffShore]

155. This isn't locked YET!!!

:wtf:

[yurbud]

175. hmmm...Hillary is 1 of 3 people who may become most powerful person on earth and she's a VICTIM?

This line of shit was stale the first time out.

Hillary can't have it both ways and say she's ready to answer the red phone on day one AND that the boys are being mean and picking on her.

If she was ready to be commander in chief, she would be ready to put her ''sexist'' critics in their place without making herself look like a victim, which is pathetic not admirable at the presidential level.

[Beacool]

176. Suffice it to watch TV or read a newspaper

to see the sexism that women are subjected to on a daily basis. In this country we have one of the highest rape statistics of any industrialized nation. Domestic violence is rampant, I just read today of the murder by their boyfriends of a 19 year old girl and a 53 year old woman, and that was just today's news!!

There is not a week that goes by where you don't read about some man killing his wife and/or also the kids. In the past two weeks 2 serial rapists were arrested for various rapes in NJ and NY. The shelters are always full of women and their children who are escaping an abusive man.

How can we even question whether there's sexism in this country?

Has Hillary been subjected to it this election season? Hell, yes!!!!! The endless comments by the rabid media about her voice (shrill), laughter (cackle), weight, age, hair, legs, clothing, even her cleavage didn't scape notice, are proof that sexism is still alive and well in this great nation of ours. The sad part is how well accepted it is by the public at large.

[ProSense]

186. If Barack Obama - or any other African American for that matter - isn't a victim of racism...

then who is a victim? Anyone?

The stupid argument in the OP doesn't have anything to do with Hillary losing the Democratic primary. Face it!