If Hillary would have ran in 2004 she would have won.

[Chisox08]

Back in 2004 there was a call for Hillary to run for President. If she would heva ran then she would have beaten Shrub and his cronies. After Dean droppped out i was all for a Clinton Clark ticket no matter which order. America called her at 3 am in 2004 and she let the phone ring.

This year Obama saw that he could actually win this election because America is tired of same crap from the Bush adminstration. He looked around and saw tha sad state the America was in and were America was headed and he decided to do something abou it. Obama saw that he couldn't do much in the Senate so he ran for the highest office in the land.

On the other hand Hillary had a grand master plan. She was going to wait until Bush second term was over before she ran President. She knew that there would be challengers but she had confidence that they wouldn't put up much of a fight and the Primaries would be over by Super Tuesday. Come 2008 She loses Iowa, but it doesn't matter because Bill didn't win Iowa but he won the nomination also the person that won Iowa was a newbie to national politics. Iowa was a fluke. New Hampshire proved this to her. But the South carolina came around and this new guy beat her ther also. Now she has to play damage control. Bill said that even Jesse Jackson won in South Carolina. The Obama camp called him on it and Bill went around apologizing for his comments. Then her buddy Rob Johnson used his TV network BET to run and hour hit piece on Obama "Obama what's in it for us". It didn 't get in media attention but it did push more black voters in Obama's corner. Hillary still wasn't worried because Super Tuesday was coming and the primary would be over by then.

Super Tuesday came and went and this Obama guy wasn't going away and he was gaining momentum. Hillary spent her money based on winning the election by Super Tuesday but she really didn't plan for what happens if on Super Tuesday comes and it still was a contested race. Obama planned for a long drawn out race. He borrowed Howard Dean's 50 state plan. He used his money wisely. He not only campaigned in states that he knew he could win but he campaigned in states he had no chance. He even won a few of those states. During Obama's 12 state streak Hillary started to get nasty her attacks went from mocking Obama, his message and his suppoters to praising John McCain at the expense of Obama.

Obama still didn't go negative on Hillary. He even fired campaign managers who insulted Hillary Clinton. Then the Rev. Wright video popped on TV and on the internet. It looked like the Obama chances for the nomination was all but over. Obama gave one of the best speaches I've heard in my short lifetime. As the Wright controversy was dying down Hillary saw her chance to strike. Instead of doing the right thing and by saying we can't hold someone responsible for what a preacher says in the privacy of the church she said if her pastor would have said those things he wouldn't have been her pastor anymore. Better yet she could have said that I will not comment on those videos because i have not seen the whole tape. If Hillary would have taken the high ground here it would have gone a long way to unifiy the party later on.

Look Hillary's chances of winning are slim to none right now we need to be focusing on beating McCain andnot beating up on our own party.

[flor de jasmim]

1. Sorry, but I can't help myself...

"If she HAD RUN"...

[Chisox08]

9. Thanks for the grammar correction.

I was trying two three things at once and I didn't recognize the error.

[MADem]

2. She made a promise not to and she kept her word.

She would have been hit with "inexperience" charges too.

I'm not giving up on Clinton. It's why I don't spend much time in this hatefilled cesspool anymore.

[Why Syzygy]

3. She wouldn't take the Whitehouse from

her brother in crime.

[DJ13]

4. Yep, its like a well choreographed play

Let one pro-business President serve out two terms, then replace with another (party makes no difference) to serve two terms, then replace with another, and another, and.........

Obama tore up their script.

[LisaM]

5. She fulfilled her commitment to serve out her 2000 Senate term

Not only that, Kerry would have made a good president. He is thoughtful, intelligent, and his voting record on the environment is among the Senate's best.

[Zachstar]

11. Yet he was defeated by Bush.

Sorry but he did not have the political machine Clinton had to fight back againt bush tactics. You needed a machine in 2004 when bush had 4 years of president under his belt and was a semi popular war president.


I am sorry but I think Clinton would have done a hell of alot better in 2004 and we would not be looking at numbers of over 4000 soldiers dead in 2008 (I assume that Clinton would have eventually ended the war in Iraq)

[karynnj]

16. Hum How well has the Clinton machine worked this primary?

This is not the 1990s - calling any charge a lie and changing your story 4 times - then biting your lip and admitting a part of it wouldn't cut it. Clinton faced a President below 40% sinking to 33% at election time. Kerry had a much tougher race.

Also consider this metric - on most Clinton charges, the majority of people still believe them. On the SBVT charges, the vast majority of people know they were lies and almost every major Republican has had to say that - including Romney (when he Kerry were at a MA veteran's event), Bush and McCain.

This is just the primary - and Clinton is limping. Kerry was unscathed by his nomination fight.

Next thought - many key Obama people joined when Kerry opted not to run - many of them have guided Obama on responding.

Next thought - Kerry responded beautifully in the primaries, surrounded by Kerry people. In the General election - he had Clinton people in his campaign complaining and trying to get him to run a Clinton style race. He likely would have been better off without them - at least there would have been no insiders complaining to the media. (You are crazy if you think they would not have challenged her patriotism.)

Last thought - Do you realize how much of Kerry's 2004 platform they are running on. The NYT has had at least 2 articles on how many of Kerry's words, HRC has used. Not to mention - what would HRC's position have been on Iraq? I doubt she would have won the primary - Kerry was far better than she was.

Real last thought - What would she have done in August and September when Clinton had heart surgery.

[blm]

18. The Clinton machine is BULLSHIT. You're seeing it at work now. It was working FOR Bush

to undermine Gore and Kerry though, before more Dems realized what traitors to the party the Clintons AND their loyalists have been

Historian Doug Brinkley noted the backstabbing of the Clintons in April2004:

http://www.depauw.edu/news/index.asp?id=13354


Bill was all over the networks for 3 weeks straight supporting and DEFENDING Bush on the very decisions the Dem nominee was attacking Bush - the last Dem president using his high profile interviews and book tour to support the GOP president only months before the election - when did THAT ever happen in election history?
http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/06/19/clinton.iraq/

Here's Carville sabotaging Ohio Dem voters on election night because they knew cheating would be the only way to keep Bush in office:
http://www.tpmcafe.com/blog/coffeehouse/2006/oct/07/did_carville_tip_bush_off_to_kerry_strategy_woodward


Clintons NEVER used their overhyped 'machine' to attack Bush the entire time - something you NEVER noticed. They DID use it sneakily to undermine ANY Dem who stepped up to oppose Bush:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dk1k0nUWEQg

[blm]

6. May I ask HOW she would have opposed Bush? She and Bill stood firmly WITH Bush on

his Iraq war decisions through 2006, so how do you believe she would have debated him on that? Bill even used his high profile interviews throughout his summer 2004 book tour to repeatedly defend Bush and show his support for his Iraq war decisions, and completely ignored that the Dem nominee had the best record in DC on the tracking of terror networks and their funding.

Neither Clinton stood with Kerry on Tora Bora, with his opposition to Bush's DECISION to invade before, during and after the invasion. Neither Clinton would stand with Kerry's call (THREE TIMES in 2003-4) for Rumsfeld to lose his job, even after Abu Ghraib.

Plus - The DNC had allowed too many state party infrastructures to remain collapsed as they had been since before 2000 - in many states there was no strong presence of Dem authority at any level of the election process where the votes are allowed, cast and counted.

Dean has worked his ass off since 2005 rebuilding those long collapsed infrastructures.

But ANY Dem nominee would have been stuck with the DNC that had too many ineffective state parties in 2004.

The idea that Hillary could have won is absurd.

[Chisox08]

7. But she wouldn't have collapsed and played nice nice like Kerry did

I'm not a Hillary supporter but she wouldn't have let them attack her without at least putting up a fight. Also the she would have had stood to Bush on National Secirity if she would have selected Gen. Wesley Clark as her running mate. The Clinton machine can get dirty and that is what we needed in November of 2004.

[blm]

10. She sided WITH Bush and so did Bill on his major decisions on security. And Kerry DIDN'T play nice

as the revisionists claim. Kerry didn't HAVE a majority of Dem lawmakers and wellknown Dems like Clintons and Lieberman on the tube supporting HIM on terrorism and Iraq they were supporting Bush, fer chrissakes. Kerry didn't have a Dem party filled with spokespeople who actually KNEW about any other Dem leader other than Clinton who they were schooled for years to defend. When Kerry attacked the swifts and Bush for hiding behind them do you REMEMBER ANY full push from the Dem lawmakers and party to FURTHER HIS REMARKS? NO. They would NOT do it.


Get real - Hillary didn't run in 2004 because she was set up to run n 2008 and continue to coverup for BushInc into the next decade just like Bill did throughout the 90s for Poppy Bush.

[Why Syzygy]

12. I want to see them exposed.

I know anyone who dares tread there is in mortal danger, but surely something in our laws or universal consciousness can expose and rid ourselves of the Bush et al cancers.

[karynnj]

25. Kerry did attack Bush

He was the one that said that Bush outsourced the capture of OBL to the Afghan warlords who just weeks before were allied with the Taliban. (Concise stmt that Bush was negligent on the most important thing)'

Not a war of last resort (This to Catholics and most Christians - says that it was an unjust war, thus immortal.) I can tell you that for some people, this went too far - and he said this before the invasion and through 2003 and 2004.

Wrong war, wrong time, wrong place, - pretty damning as well

Misled us to war without exhausting the diplomacy, letting the inspectors finish their work ..... without a plan for the peace.

Then in the last few weeks:

Kerry spoke of how Bush failed to secure the known ammo dumps and that ammo was in the ieds that were killing and maiming "our kids" - HRC could not have had the clear connection Kerry had to that - you could see the horror and the intense anger that he felt at the sheer stupidity of this. He was in Vietnam part of a very stupid mission with a 90% casualty rate - he knows what these guys faced - and he was angry.

Even with Clark as VP, she would have been attacked on her patriotism - do you think we wouldn't have seen the Bill Clinton letter on "some people loathing the military"? Do you think that Kerry was the only one they would attack - in reality they had to lie about Kerry because he really did have a 35 year history of working for veterans. I seriously doubt that Clinton will ever have that connection.

[Vinca]

8. Diebold delivered for Shrub. Hillary wouldn't have made a difference. nt

[zulchzulu]

13. I seriously doubt it. She would have probably done even worse

I don't see a convincing argument at all regarding her winning in 2004. Kerry had it in the bag and Hillary up against him would have been silly.

She would not have won the nomination, let alone the election. The name "Clinton" is a pure fundraiser as well as fantastic impetus for the Right Wing to mobilize on. She has proven she can't run a decent campaign in the primary season, so you could imagine just how inept a General Election campaign would have been.

Boil it down...Bill ruined it for Hillary. She will never be President because of him. That's not even counting the factor in that she is not a trustworthy candidate by any means to those who have been paying attention.

[blm]

20. Hillary on a debate stage with JK in 2004? Saying what? How she sided with Bush AGAINST Kerry?

Hillary wanted NO PART of being on a debate stage with Kerry. I highly doubt Bill Clinton would, either. Kerry wouldn't let his lies and spin go un-noted.

[karynnj]

26. Not to mention that HRC's story of heroism in Bosnia would look

pretty pale next to a much more modest Kerry hugging Rassmann after Rassmann told the crowd of Kerry saving his life. Kerry actually looked a bit shy as Rassmann praised him - and there really were snipers.

[quantass]

14. Wow i cant believe this is what has happened so far in this election process ... and theres MORE....

Great post Chisox!

[ray of light]

15. ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ....No. Hillary didn't want to run against an incombent president. she prefered

to run when she could have the advantage. That's why she and Bill and her 'clinton-family' made sure that they didn't really support Kerry with their whole heart, their media advantage, and instead Carville was sitting there telling Mary Kerry's plans so that Mary could call Cheney and sabotage it.

[politicasista]

21. Yep n/t

[loveangelc]

17. I totally agree! Timing is everything. I joined a group calling for Hillary to run in 04.

no offense to anyone who supported one of the 04 candidates, but I honestly didn't think any of the 04 candidates were going to beat Bush, despite the early good polling, though I hoped they would. She definitely would have had a good chance of beating Bush in 04. This year, she has no chance of beating McCain, because she won't be the nominee, and if she were the nominee, I think she would run a terrible campaign in the general election, much like she has this year from the start of the primaries imo.

[blm]

19. On what platform would she have run? She and Bill stayed closeasthis to Bush

on terrorism and Iraq war.

Hillary's book came out in 2003 because Clintons didn't WANT Dems to get to know their primary candidates very well.

Bill's book came out in summer of 2004 because Clintons didn't WANT Dem voters to get to know their nominee better and in any thorough way to defend the truth. For June and July of 2004 Dems were stuck once again defending Bill's problem areas instead of getting to know Kerry and his record and his REAL contributions to this nation's history and as the leading lawmaker in DC on the tracking of terror networks and their funding.

BILL sure didn't mention it during any ONE of his high profile book tour interviews, though he found plenty of time to defend Bush and support his Iraq decisions in nearly every interview he did.

[karynnj]

27. If she would run a terrible ge campaign this year, why do you think she would run a great one in

2004. This is a year that very highly favors the Democrats, while 2004 really didn't.

[MercutioATC]

22. Cue Mr. Peabody and the wayback machine...

:eyes:

[JVS]

23. No. I don't think she ever could win.

She had the party establishment behind her 100% when this primary started, had the connections and couldn't pull it off.

[Raine]

24. I don't believe Hillary would've ever

run against an incumbent. This election was her best chance, no incumbent President running, no Vice President running either.

[AZBlue]

28. Of course! That's why she pushes the "inexperienced" meme.

Doh!

She's pissed off - she could have run in 2004 but was too scared to be called inexperienced herself. So, she waited. And now this upstart is doing exactly what she wanted to do - running for President during his first term in the Senate - and is winning!

Oh, it all makes sense now!

[PerfectSage]

29. Bill wanted her to run in 2004. But Hill didn't want to. HaHa.

"He borrowed Howard Dean's 50 state plan."

From an effective organizational culture perspective: Grassroots beats centalized decision making.