"Nader's Republican Pipe Dream." by Peter Dizikes in Salon...

[flpoljunkie]

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2004/06/10/nader/print.html




Nader's Republican pipe dream

The spoiler candidate insists he's drawing GOP voters away from George W. Bush. There's only one problem: They only exist in his mind.

by Peter Dizikes

June 10, 2004  |  Ralph Nader's latest presidential campaign does not have an official slogan. It does, however, have a kind of official rationalization. "I think I'm going to take more votes away from Republicans than from Democrats," Nader says, almost every time he speaks. Democrats doubt this theory. And Nader admits no Republicans have asked him to leave the race or expressed fear he will siphon votes from Bush. "I don't think they're in with the trend," Nader explained.

But Nader insists his Republican backers are real. To find out more, I spent a good chunk of time over the last few weeks talking to Nader supporters in New England. I attended Nader meetups, Nader volunteer meetings, Nader campaign events and Nader press conferences. I spoke with Nader supporters who are still in high school, and Nader supporters with gray hair. I talked to people who have admired Nader since the 1960s, and others who first heard of him last year. I found Nader supporters who have voted for him multiple times, Nader supporters who have never voted, and Nader supporters who voted for Al Gore in 2000.

What I did not find, however, was a single supporter of Ralph Nader who voted for George W. Bush in 2000, or who had been planning to support Bush this year before Nader entered the race. After a while, I felt like a stymied naturalist stalking a rare species. Sure, Naderus Republicanus must exist somewhere, but it is an unusual creature, capable of eluding human observation for long stretches of time.

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[Zorra]

1. What reason would a republican have for voting Nader?

And what are Ralph's reasons for saying he will take more votes from republicans than Democrats? Seems to defy statistics and logic. It would really be a great political move for his reputation and for this country if he dropped out of the race and urged his supporters to back Kerry.

Nader's Numbers
By Evan Derkacz, AlterNet
May 31, 2004

The DontVoteRalph.net study looked at every poll — since Nader entered the race this time — that measured Bush and Kerry head-to-head as well as a three-way race with Bush, Kerry and Nader. Of the 37 such polls, Nader pulls votes directly from Kerry in 32 and four show no difference. Only one, a Fox News poll, shows Nader pulling votes from Bush by 1%. These results also happen to be consistent with exit polls from 2000 which showed that Nader voters would have voted for Gore twice as often as for Bush.

There is a certain "duh" factor to the study. Who seriously believes that Nader has any strong appeal to conservatives? Sure, his platform includes positions some fiscal conservatives might support; but his Green Party background, lack of Christian credentials, liberal social agenda, anti-corporate themes and reputation as a "tree hugger" all render him an unlikely choice for conservatives. Angry at Bush or not, the idea that conservatives will storm the polls for Nader is about as silly as the idea that Democrats will defect to, say, Pat Buchanan, because he opposed the Iraq war. In any case, intuitive arguments are just that; the poll numbers speak for themselves.

http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=18828

[AP]

3. There's a book about Nader's '96 run. It says that the Green Party...

...actively went after 2nd A supporters.

The party strategy has definitely been to go after poor white men who vote for Republicans against their best financial/economic interests.

The book describes the debates they had within the party which were ultimately resovled in favor of not looking only to the far left to harvest votes for Greens.

It's practically a matter of record. The book was written in '97 or '98.

The full text of the book used to be available at a website called lagoongreens, IIRC.

[bushwakker]

4. The GOPers who are helping him get on the ballot in AZ

are Nader supporters of a kind.

[AP]

6. They're desperate.

Look at 2000. Without the SCt, Gore would have won despite all the help the GOP allegedly gave to Nader.

Let them waste their time and money trying to get Nader on the ballot.

I doubt it will make a difference, and it's time they're not spending helping Bush.

[fujiyama]

16. That really doesn't make sense

They can try to attract 2nd Ammendment supporters all they want, but for those that are single issue voters based on gun control, they will either vote republican, libertarian, or even constition party.

I don't see how Nader will really attract many republicans based on this issue. Maybe on NAFTA, but once again I think the constitution nuts oppose it as well. Nader isn't exactly opposed to gun control. His view is very much in line with that of democrats.

I see Nader as a very dishonest person. He knows that he's not helping remove Bush from office by running again...but he's doing it to stroke his ego.

[Mike L]

33. "progressive" Nader courts paleoconservatives

Yes, he's going after the Reform Party's base-- the Pat Buchanan "old guard" conservatives. That after Naderites said Kerry = Bush because Kerry didn't take every ultra-left position on every issue. Naderites say Kerry isn't a progressive. What hypocrites! Nader is trying to sleep with the ultra-conservative Reform Party members and Buchanan types who ran on a 2000 platform that was anti-choice, anti-gay and pro (their religion) school prayer. I suppose Nader will run in the right-wing Reform Party slot in certain states if he can't get enough signatures to make it as an Independent candidate. Nader is an egomaniac, not a progressive.

[sadiesworld]

2. Naderus Republicanus...

I love it!
An elusive creature, indeed.

[sangh0]

5. For some odd reason, the Naderites never post in these threads

:shrug:

[Forkboy]

15. And for some odd reason the war supporters avoided all the torture threads

:shrug:

[sangh0]

19. There are no war supporters

on DU

[Forkboy]

22. lol

[Forkboy]

23. wrong0 sangh0

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1767493

[sangh0]

24. Wow

That's an awfully large contingent. One poster.

No wonder you're so worked up over it.

[Forkboy]

25. But you said there was none

You were wrong.

But that's ok,we're all used to it.

[sangh0]

27. Wow

I'm so ashamed

[Forkboy]

28. And wrong to

[debsianben]

7. Why Let Facts Stop You?

The fact is Nader really did get more votes from Republicans than Democrats in NH in 2000. It's not a matter of controversy.

Also, there's a big difference between saying that MORE Dems than Reps support Nader and trying to claim that pro-Nader Republicans exist only in Nader's mind. About 1 in 5 Nader voters in 2000 was a Republican, and as of the last ABC/Washington Post poll I saw about 3% of Republicans (vs. about 6% of Democrats and 9% of Independants) are planning on voting for Nader. That's a lot of people.

Now, if your point is that Nader pulls more Dem votes than Reps, that's a totally separate issue from saying that its "absurd" to think that a significant chunk of Nader's votes will come from Republicans.

Plus, I think Nader's endorsement by the Reform Party indicates that the idea of people who might otherwise vote Republican supporting him is not a chimera.

[Nederland]

8. Speaking of facts

Care to give us a link?

[debsianben]

11. Here You Go

From a 5/24 Washington Post/ABC Poll that asks the question, "If the 2004 presidential election were being held today, would you vote for George W. Bush, the Republican, John Kerry, the Democrat, or Ralph Nader, the Independent?" They show Nader getting 3% of Republican votes, 6% of the Democratic total and (my mistake) 11% of Independants.

The link is http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/politics/polls/

From there, make sure the category is "President," type in the keyword Nader and you should find the 5/24 3-way race poll right away. Click on "party" when you come to it to see the break-down.

[wyldwolf]

12. What does this have to do with 2000?

Just curious. Looks like current or recent polling to me.

[debsianben]

13. Sorry

I thought that was what I was being asked for, since that was what I spent the bulk of the post that I was asked to provide a link for talking about.

I don't have stats available off-hand for 2000, but even according to the Salon article at the beginning of the thread well over a fifth of Nader's 2000 vote came from Republicans...and I have yet to see any one actually deny that Nader got more Republican than Democratic votes in New Hampshire, which as far as I know was uncontroversially what the exit polls showed.

[Nederland]

18. Here are the Facts

Source: http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2000/epolls/US/P000.html

I don't think these numbers work out the way you are claiming. Unless my math is wrong, the above data shows that 58.9% of Nader voters were independent, 28.3% were Democratic, and 12.7% were Republican. Of course, its easy to be off by quite a bit here because Nader got such a small percentage of the vote and the above table rounds the number to the nearest whole number. When you take those rounded numbers and multiply them by each other the rounding error can be significant.

If you have better numbers I'd be interested...

[sangh0]

20. IOW, debsianben can't support his assertions

while the person s/he accused of not knowing the facts was able to support his assertion with facts.

"The fact is Nader really did get more votes from Republicans than Democrats in NH in 2000. It's not a matter of controversy"

[debsianben]

31. As far as I know, that's what the exit polls showed

If you can find a source that denies it, I'll concede that it's not "uncontroversial."

[debsianben]

32. Those are the national numbers, right?

If so, then this comes out porportionally similar to what I had been assuming (I got my numbers from the Salon article at the beggining of the thread)--about twice as many Dems as Reps, but Reps still making up a significant percentage. If they're New Hampshire numbers (I couldn't find anything for New Hampshire on the web-site link), then I stand corrected.

[Mike L]

35. 58.9% of Nader voters were independent

It's safe to assume that most of them would have voted Dem if Nader hadn't been running.

[Mike L]

34. chimera

is that a little dog?

[Cheswick2.0]

9. the sad thing is Nader is not delusional

He knows he is full of shit and is lying about his intentions once again. I think the truth is that he is still punishing democrats for not being "left" (whatever his version of left is)enough.

[Mike L]

36. motive?

Is that Nader's motive, or is he just an egomaniac?

[mzmolly]

10. "I think I'm going to take more votes away from Republicans than

from Democrats?"

I'm convinced he's clinical man. :crazy:

Check the POLLS RALPH!

[John_H]

14. Ralph's not stupid--his supporters are. He's a garden variety liar. n/t

[WLKjr]

17. Sorry Nader

Your time has come and gone. GET OVER IT!

Besides he is like 70+ years old, and he acts like he is dilusional or has memory lose or something.

[WitchWay]

26. Ageism and Discrimination

Wow! Criticisms based in and relying on blatant, mean-spirited and hateful ageism and age discrimination. That's very progressive.

[WLKjr]

29. I shouldn't have mentioned age

But the man has lost touch with society. He hasn't adjusted to times from my point of view and should stop taking donations from republicans. He caters to them and that also makes me mad. He seems to just not be there in the head like he was 20-30 years ago. I am proud of what he fought for then.

I was wrong in the wording of my last post, forgive me but nader just annoys me.

[UrbScotty]

38. Plus, is he charismatic? I think not. (nt)

[DrFunkenstein]

21. It's Dishonest From Nader, And A Bit Disappointing

That's coming from someone who still has a tremendous respect for all the incredible advocacy he has performed through his lifetime. I hate to see it sullied with such transparent BS.

[Mike L]

30. The Nader Factor

There's a new website designed to inform Nader 2000 supporters of the impact of their votes on the 2000 election-- TheNaderFactor.com. Here's a recent post from the site that you might find interesting:

"June 10, 2004
***Ralph Nader Meets with TheNaderFactor.com Leaders!

Unity? Well, maybe a first step... Last week, we delivered a letter to Mr. Nader, asking for a meeting to discuss how we could work together to change the destructive policies of the Bush administration and the Republican right wing.

And today -- we got that meeting.

Mr. Nader, along with his Communications Director Kevin Zeese, met with us -- for nearly two hours. And let's just say... it was a very interesting discussion.

Stay tuned...

Tricia Enright (formerly DeanForAmerica)
John Hlinko (formerly DraftWesleyClark.com, and Clark 04)
Chris Kofinis (formerly DraftWesleyClark.com, and Clark 04)

Posted by John Hlinko at 04:22 PM "

http://www.thenaderfactor.com/

TheNaderFactor.com is also running ads in swing-states where Nader did the most damage in the last election. The ads feature Nader 2000 voters lamenting their vote and saying, "by supporting Ralph Nader, I actually helped George Bush." They're running the ads in two states now. They haven't run ads in Florida yet. I suppose they need to collect more contributions to be able hit all the targeted states.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

37. Is Nader delusional or evil?

I can't tell.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

39. A little of both

NT