I'm trying to stay optimistic here

[mmonk]

and keep my foot on the pedal for the general election. But there's real poison in this party and it IS a problem. I think of people like Larry Johnson and others who will go to any extreme to destroy Obama and be in bed with any extreme rightwing bilge throwers just as an example. Then there are the Bill Nelson's and Debbie Wasserman Schultz's and the attempts to bring down the DNC chair in the middle of an election. I've never seen a primary quite like this one. I lived through some contentious ones like 68 and 80, but this one is uncalled for given the historic opportunity (and consequences of failure). I'm close to being done in with the party. The only thing that keeps me going is the depravity of the neoconservative movement and John McCain. I just wanted to get this off my chest. Back to your regular scheduled mudslinging.

[grantcart]

1. Its the god damned Flemish

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x5449098

[babylonsister]

2. Mrs. Optimistic at your disposal here.

Have faith! It will be over soon. There has been a lot of poo slinging, from factions that surprised me, too, but I'm going for that change we all need, and I have lots of hope that we shall see that! :hi:

[mmonk]

6. Sheesh, I hate rants.

Maybe I need to go back and look at the pictures of the Michelle Obama event I attended. All the young people, old people, tee shirts and coat and ties, every race, every walk of life, all gathered together for a common purpose. Sometimes, I need to stay focused in spite of the mud. The stakes and hopes of many are on the line. Thanks.

[VolcanoJen]

29. It does help.

I keep thinking of the days before the Ohio Primary, the honk-n-waves, the enthusiasm, the friendships I made while volunteering for Obama. It was an amazing time, and when I look at the photos and the memories, I feel optimistic again. There is indeed much poison in our party... more than I ever realized, but we'll get through this.

The only way past it is through it, after all.

[papau]

3. Karma after Obama pissed on being on the same ticket with Hillary (in any order)

[gcomeau]

4. That is completely disengenuous

Hillary forced Obama's hand by suggesting him in a VP slot from second place in the race. She put him in a position where he either had to shoot down the pairing or let her get away with portraying herself as the frontrunner dispute losing in every measurable category imaginable AND suggest to his supporters that they could still get him as a two-fer by voting Hillary. She made sure he had only one viable option. To then blame Obama for the "dream ticket" being scuttled is ridiculous.

I would have maintained reservations about Hilary as his VP regardless because I did not then nor do I now consider her to help him under those circumstances, but that is what really killed it.

[Levgreee]

5. As Pelosi said, once Clinton claimed Obama hadnt crossed the"Commander-in-Chief threshold",no chance

of the combined ticket working. She has framed him as lower than McCain, it makes no sense for them to be on a combined ticket now.

[Skwmom]

16. Exactly. The Republicans would just run Clinton's attacks against Obama throughout the

general election. She shot herself in the foot (not to mention that Hillary on the ticket would rally the Republican base for McCain and turn away independents and fed-up Republicans who back Obama).

[aquarius dawning]

32. That was after he decided she wasn't fit to be on his ticket.

[kentuck]

7. Let's put the "fun" back in dysfunctional..

The more I read here and the more I try to assimilate what is going on, the more I realize that we have become a dysfunctional family in a dysfunctional nation. Nobody can agree on anything. My side is right and your side is wrong. And if you disagree with me, you are a "liar". Why does it have to be like this?

Can't we all just get along? :-)

[mmonk]

11. That would be great.

Sometimes, I'm feeling really great and then I come here and my ears smoke. It's like going to a great movie and afterwards when you get in your car and turn on the radio, Sean Hannity is on.;-)

[Solon]

8. I lost my optimism when I was 15, and now I'm only optimistic when drunk...

its the way of the world.

[mmonk]

9. Now there's an idea.

[Solon]

10. I wish I were joking...

For all my life, this country seems to be mostly static, on a social level and regressing on the economic level. Hell, all my adult life, voting has been an exercise in futility and frustration, I see no reason to be optimistic now.

[H2O Man]

12. Dlow Train Coming

-- Bob Dylan

Sometimes I feel so low-down and disgusted
Can't help but wonder what's happening to my companions
Are they lost or are they found, have they counted the cost it'll take to bring down
All their earthly principles they're gonna have to abandon ?
There's slow, slow train coming up around the bend.

I had a woman down in Alabama
She was a backwoods girl, but she sure was realistic
She said, Boy, without a doubt, have to quit your mess and straighten out
You could die down here, be just another accident statistic
There's slow, slow train coming up around the bend.

All that foreign oil controlling American soil
Look around you, it's just bound to make you embarrassed
Sheiks walking around like kings, wearing fancy jewels and nose rings
Deciding America's future from Amsterdam and to Paris
And there's slow, slow train coming up around the bend.

Man's ego is inflated, his laws are outdated, they don't apply no more
You can't rely no more to be standing around waiting
In the home of the brave, Jefferson turning over in his grave
Fools glorifying themselves, trying to manipulate Satan
And there's slow, slow train coming up around the bend.

Big-time negotiators, false healers and woman haters
Masters of the bluff and masters of the proposition
But the enemy I see wears a cloak of decency
All non-believers and men stealers talking in the name of religion
And there's slow, there's slow train coming up around the bend.

People starving and thirsting, grain elevators are bursting
Oh, you know it costs more to store the food than it do to give it
They say loose your inhibitions, follow your own ambitions
They talk about a life of brotherly love, show me someone who knows how to live it
There's slow, slow train coming up around the bend.

Well, my baby went to Illinois with some bad-talking boy she could destroy
A real suicide case, but there was nothing I could do to stop it
I don't care about economy, I don't care about astronomy
But it's sure do bother me to see my loved ones turning into puppets
There's slow, slow train coming up around the bend.

[mmonk]

14. Dylan, reality's poet.

[TheDonkey]

13. It's very sad what's going on. I hope the Clintons do not ruin the party just because

their egos cannot stand the fact that Democrats may want to go in a new direction.

[2rth2pwr]

25. The new direction of bashing typical white people in PA?

[Vinca]

15. I know what you mean. It's depressing when you hear the polls

and the Democratic infighting is causing McBush's poll numbers to rise. Sometimes I find myself at the point of tears. This is so important and we're fucking it up.

[mmonk]

17. At least Obama moving up

in polls concerning the general election in NC is a positive sign.

[LWolf]

18. I think we need a brokered convention and a 3rd nominee.

One not connected with the toxic division we are now experiencing.

Quite frankly, I'd go to some extremes (relatively; extreme for me) to keep Obama from being the nominee.

One extreme I've considered, but not decided on, is actually voting for HRC in my primary next month.

Not because I want her to be the nominee. Because it could help keep things close enough to bring about the brokered convention that I see as the last hope for the Democrats in November.

I don't see attacks on Obama as being "RW." From my left-wing position in the spectrum, Obama already IS right-wing. He's more rw than the DLC baby HRC. I wouldn't have said that was possible for a democrat, but he's proved me wrong.

This is something that truly astounds me; I'm speaking from the heart:

Barack Obama IS a neoliberal. Which is no better than a neoconservative. It's crystal clear for anyone to see who wants to look. Yet many who consider themselves progressives somehow think he has something constructive to offer.

[mmonk]

19. Make your case better.

Use examples such as people chosen by both campaigns and who backs them.

[LWolf]

21. People that might be a better choice?

Gore is the obvious. He's already been nominated and won in 2000, and I believe the party would rally behind him. That would be an elegant end to the Bush administration, and triumph for the Democratic Party, imo.

Kerry, possibly for the same reason, although I see him as a weaker choice.

Edwards, because he had a lot of support in THIS race, won some delegates, and hasn't divided the party into factions that hate each other. I actually see him as a stronger choice than Kerry.

[mmonk]

26. I see enough degrees of difference between Obama and Clinton.

I see differences between Obama's approach in foreign policy and the pure neoliberalism of the DLC. There certainly are more progressive candidates, I just disagree with the concept that the DLC leadership member is less DLC or neoliberal than Obama.

[LWolf]

27. Well, we'll have to agree to disagree on that one.

I will admit to being shocked, and dismayed, to see Obama as MORE neoliberal than HRC. I understand why many prefer to hope, and believe, that he is not.

I just don't see him that way.

[mmonk]

Here's another way to look at it.

Obama spoke out against the war in Iraq when it was unpopular to do so while Clinton still claims her vote for the IWR was correct. Holbrooke who is an advisor to Clinton was for the war in Iraq and regime change while Power, advisor to Obama was not. Bill Clinton did not interfere with the Rwandan genocide while Power was an advocate for intervention (and there are no corprate interests there). Hillary supported Kyl-Lieberman while Obama says we must engage in diologue with Iran. Subtle differences, yes, but differences nonetheless.

[Swamp Rat]

33. "Barack Obama IS a neoliberal."

I think Hillary Clinton will likely continue Bushler's war mongering policies, including war with Iran. She has taken some hard-lined positions that fly under the radar:

"Hillary Clinton believes that Israel's right to exist in safety as a Jewish state, with defensible borders and an undivided Jerusalem as its capital, secure from violence and terrorism, must never be questioned."

http://www.hillaryclinton.com/feature/israel

The Israeli-Palestinian conflict will worsen if the U.S. takes such a hard-lined position. Does she agree with AIPAC's all-or-nothing position? Even Israeli officials have stated a need to cede the Arab neighborhoods of Jerusalem in order to resolve conflict.

[LWolf]

35. I don't disagree about HRC. n/t

[Swamp Rat]

37. OK

:hi:



:D

[sniffa]

20. Hmmm

I hear you. My wife and only were speaking recently (a couple of weeks back) that we may actually join the party. We've always been Indies, and pride ourselves on it. However, the grassroots of the Obama campaign, and the unheard of style of his campaign has made us proud, and ready to finally become Dems by name. We haven't yet, as it's getting ugly, and I'm kinda having second thoughts of joining a party that is doing this.

Once this shakes out, I hope I can get back to feeling good about it, and actually go to City Hall across the street to change my registration.

[anonymous171]

22. Larry Johnson is a repug who doesn't like Bush.

[mmonk]

38. True but a hero to many here.

[2rth2pwr]

23. How has Larry Johnson gone to the "extreme" to destroy Obama?

[mmonk]

36. So Obama was an eight year old bomber?

P.S. his website is garbage.

[ClayZ]

24. This post will help!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=5468877&mesg_id=5468931

[Bensthename]

28. They won't stop this primary until he is unelectable in the gen election.

It is very sad. Self interest over what is best for the party and country.

[Faygo Kid]

30. I agree. This is extraordinary. Tough to stay optimistic.

I really think Hillary is going to bring down the party around her. And you are so very correct in your characterization of the "Dems" like Wasserman Schultz who are more interested in preserving the inside-the-beltway status quo with the GOP than in bettering her constituents' lives.

An extraordinary year, and we are just getting started.

[RememberWellstone]

31. Obama is master baiting

Himself, with no one's help but his choices and his words.

[Swamp Rat]

34. Copycat

:)