Kucinich, "The only one" for universal health care?

[HFishbine]

From Kucinich's web site:

"Only Kucinich has a plan for our nation to join other advanced democracies with genuinely universal health coverage -- national health insurance that eliminates the waste and bureaucracy of private insurance, the primary obstacle to universal coverage." (http://www.kucinich.us/whichway.php)

How can Kucinich say such a thing? Major candidate Moseley Braun (who polls twice as high as Kucinich in national polls) clearly has also proposed universal healthcare: http://www.carolforpresident.com/pdf/q_health_care.pdf

[dpbrown]

1. Could you provide a link to that claim, please?

This is what I found on Kucinich's "Universal Health Care" page:
http://www.kucinich.us/issues/universalhealth.php

Universal Health Care

The Kucinich plan is enhanced 'Medicare for All' -- a universal, single-payer system of national health insurance, carefully phased in over 10 years. It addresses everyone's needs, including the 40 million Americans without coverage and those paying exorbitant rates for health insurance. This approach to healthcare emphasizes patient choice, and puts doctors and patients in control of the system, not insurance companies. Coverage will be more complete than private insurance plans, encourage prevention and include prescription drugs.

Health care is currently dominated by insurance firms and HMOS, institutions that are more bureaucratic and costly than Medicare. People are waiting longer for appointments. Fewer people are getting a doctor of their choice. Physicians are given monetary incentives to deny care. Pre-existing illnesses are being used to deny coverage.

Over time, the Kucinich plan will remove private insurance companies from the system -- along with their waste, paperwork, profits, excessive executive salaries, advertising, sales commissions, etc -- and redirect resources to actual treatment. Insurance companies do not heal or treat anyone, physicians and health practitioners do ...and thousands of physicians support a single-payer system because it reduces bureaucracy and shelters the doctor-patient relationship from HMO and insurance company encroachment.

Non-profit national health insurance will decrease total healthcare spending while providing more treatment and services -- through reductions in bureaucracy and cost-cutting measures such as bulk purchasing of prescriptions drugs. Funding will come primarily from existing government healthcare spending (more than $1 trillion) and a phased-in tax on employers of 7.7% (almost $1 trillion). The employers' tax is less than the 8.5% of payroll now paid on average by companies that provide private insurance.

This type of system -- privately-delivered health care, publicly financed -- has worked well in other countries, none of whom spend as much per capita on healthcare as the United States. "We're already paying for national healthcare; we're just not getting it," says Kucinich. The cost-effectiveness of a single-payer system has been affirmed in many studies, including those conducted by the Congressional Budget Office and the General Accounting Office. The GAO has written:
"If the US were to shift to a system of universal coverage and a single payer, as in Canada, the savings in administrative costs (10% to private insurers) would be more than enough to offset the expense of universal coverage."

Over the years, groups and individuals as diverse as Consumers Union, labor unions, the CEO of General Motors, the editorial boards of the Atlanta Journal-Constitution and St. Louis Post Dispatch, and Physicians for a National Health Program have endorsed a single-payer approach. It is sound economics -- what actuaries call 'Spreading the Risk' -- to extend Medicare to younger and healthier sectors of our population, thereby putting everyone in one insurance pool. It permanently saves and improves Medicare, while eliminating duplicative private and government bureaucracies.

While enhanced Medicare for All makes economic sense, it has not made political sense to some, due to the power of the private insurance lobby. The streamlined Kucinich plan is very different than the 1993 Clinton HMO-based plan, a complex proposal that left big insurance firms in a central role. After Clinton's 'Managed Competition' plan failed without coming up for a vote, talk-radio host Jim Hightower asked President Clinton why he hadn't put forward a "simple, straightforward" single-payer plan "instead of all this bureaucracy." Clinton replied, "I thought it would be easier to pass" a bill that left the insurance industry in place. "I guess I was wrong about that."

Check out this comparison of the candidates' plans for health coverage on the Labor Party's site:http://www.justhealthcare.org/PDF/scorecard.pdf

______________________________

The claim that he's the "only one" doesn't appear in his position description on this issue.

Of course, we know Dean does not support universal single-payer.

Dan Brown
Saint Paul, Minnesota

[HFishbine]

2. Yes, of course

Sorry for the oversight. I've added it to the original post.

http://www.kucinich.us/whichway.php

[dpbrown]

4. Thank you for adding it - I don't think it shows an overbroad claim

I think the piece you linked to is a comparison of Kucinich with three specific candidates, and the claim therefore is made within the context of the comparison.

Dan Brown
Saint Paul, Minnesota

[HFishbine]

16. dp

Exactly. It's a lot less condemnable when taken in context.

[dpbrown]

18. I agree

I think he respects C M-B quite a bit.

[Cheswick2.0]

79. isn't he LYING when he says he is the ONLY ONE

?

[Tinoire]

82. No because she doesn't have a plan

All the evaluating agencies have stated so. She a general idea but none of it is on paper showing how she would get from A-Z. The most you can find from her are a few paragraphs of quotes from interviews on her web-site.

That really doesn't qualify as a plan- no one can evaluate it. CMB hasn't taken herself very seriously in this campaign and has never been a serious competitor from the start. The word in the Black comunity is that she's only there to weaken Sharpton's support. CMB has some serious Nigerian baggage in her closet that appals most Blacks.

Her ties to Nigerian dictator Sani Abacha doomed her from the start with the Black comunity and they're why she was lost her campaign for a second term in 1998 after being accused of spending campaign funds on herself and her boyfriend.

http://nm.indymedia.org/newswire/display/1256/index.php

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/02/20/1045638424855.html

[mzmolly]

35. Why not compare himself to all of the Candidates?

Would'nt that be more ohhh I dunno, forthright?

[dpbrown]

37. He does, often, but the piece cited was a narrower comparison

So hanging on it to find some way to smear Kucinich is not, ohhhhh I dunno, forthright.

[mzmolly]

43. So Dennis is allowed a 'narrow' comparison but the other candidates

are not?

Seems a bit odd.

Dennis gives speaches all the time with this rhetoric, and doesn't clarify his 'narrow' comparisons at the time.

I dont personally hold it against him, I think it's a bit hypocritical is all?

[dpbrown]

48. It's odd that Dean (narrowly) said he was the only candidate against war

Narrowly distinguishing yourself from other candidates untruthfully is different from delineating a subset of your candidates and outlining your positions as against theirs.

That's why this opportunistic attack on Kucinich is failing so dramatically.

[mzmolly]

52. Apparently you have not researched this issue extensively.

Or read many of the links provided. Please do, so you can come back with the proper information...

Dennis did not clarify his "narrow" field in the speech(es) noted here this evening.

Oh in fact, here is an interview from Common Dreams:

Mulkey: Congressman Kucinich, what sets you apart from the other Democratic presidential candidates? Why should I vote for you rather than one of the others?

Rep. Kucinich: I am the only candidate who voted against the war on Iraq and who consistently opposed it. I am the only candidate who sued the President to try to prevent him from going to war without a declaration from Congress. I am the only candidate who will repeal NAFTA and withdraw from the WTO, replacing these agreements that have cost us so many hundreds of thousands of jobs with fair bilateral trade agreements that protect jobs, workers' rights, human rights, and environmental quality principles. I am the only candidate with a single-payer plan that provides every man, woman, and child with comprehensive health coverage from whatever doctors they choose, and does so through a tax on employers that is lower than what employers who now provide coverage pay on average. I am the only candidate who voted against the "PATRIOT Act" and who has introduced a bill to repeal major sections of it. I am the only candidate who will redirect our priorities from war and tax cuts for millionaires to peace and education, including free college tuition. I am the only candidate who will make 20 percent of our energy use renewables rather than fossil fuels by 2010. I am the only candidate who will focus on breaking up monopolies, including agri-business monopolies and media monopolies.

I don't see any clarification Dan. You?

http://www.commondreams.org/views03/1224-11.htm

[dpbrown]

54. Dean's printed materials provide plenty of documentation

And Kucinich has never compared himself in an overbroad sense to meet the threshold upon which this tired attack on him is based.

He didn't say he had a plan and Carol Moseley-Braun did not.

He said he had a single-payer, federally run Medicare for all plan, and Dean, Kerry, and Gephardt didn't.

And they don't.

End of story.

[mzmolly]

55. ooops, you just missed my edit. unfortunately it's not the 'end of story'

http://www.commondreams.org/views03/1224-11.htm

See the post above *edited* for educational purposes. He said he was "THE ONLY" candidate who ...

[dpbrown]

59. Only candidate who what?

Please make a point, and don't just end in ellipses.

The article you posted, with an interview, contains more than enough qualifications in any statement used to make it useless as a tool to try to smear Kucinich.

For example, Kucinich's single-payer plan relies on employer funding, and Moseley-Braun's relies on an income-tax based funding system. Kucinich mentions that distinction, so his statement in that respect can't be used to fuel the continued fascination with attackers of Kucinich to say he didn't give fair props to Carol Moseley-Braun.

Okay, I'm done with this.

I answered the original question, and the rest of this is just garbage.

[mzmolly]

62. I posted more information then the UHC issue you addressed.

Dennis clearly makes claims that are not keeping with the standard he holds for other candidates.

Night :hi:

[dpbrown]

3. The title of the link you gave is: Kucinich vs. Gephardt, Kerry and Dean

Don't you suppose that claims made within a document with a title like that refer to the universe of comparisons being made within?

That's the way I would read it.

And then when I look at his actual Universal Health Care page, poof, no such claims.

I think this is a straw man.

Dan Brown
Saint Paul, Minnesota

[FubarFly]

5. Sigh, here's another link.

As a candidate for president, Dennis Kucinich offers a different vision for America, one that separates him from the other candidates. He is the only candidate for president who will take this country away from fear and war and tax giveaways, and use America's peace dividend for guaranteed health care for all, ending health care for profit. He is the only candidate who will stop the privatization of Social Security and bring the retirement age back to 65. He is the only one who will work to repeal the Taft-Hartley Act and "Right to Work (for less)" laws. He is the only one who will repeal NAFTA and withdraw from the WTO, to replace them with trade agreements based on workers' rights. Dennis Kucinich grew up and lives in a working class neighborhood. His father was a union member. He is a union member. He has been a longtime friend of labor.

http://216.239.41.104/search?q=cache:OacrlwCs_PkJ:www.kucinich.us/materials/LABORISSUES1.doc+site:kucinich.us+only+progressive&hl=en&ie=UTF-8


And from the original link:

Only Kucinich has a plan for our nation to join other advanced democracies with genuinely universal health coverage -- national health insurance that eliminates the waste and bureaucracy of private insurance, the primary obstacle to universal coverage. Other candidates propose tinkering with a system that leaves private for-profit insurance firms in the center of healthcare: "My plan is not reform," Dean told the New York Times. "If you want to totally change the healthcare system, I'm not your guy."

--
I am not going to participate in this conversation, I posted the links for fairnesses sake. Y'all can form the circular firing squad, I'll be the one ducking.

[dpbrown]

8. This doesn't overbroadly say he has something C M-B doesn't have, either

The original link is, as I pointed out, a comparison of Kucinich with three, specific candidates.

The google cache you provided says this:

UNIVERSAL HEALTH COVERAGE

The Kucinich plan is Enhanced Medicare for All -– a universal single-payer system of national health insurance, carefully phased in over 10 years.  It addresses everyone’s needs, including the 40 million Americans without coverage and those paying exorbitant rates for health insurance.  This approach to healthcare emphasizes patient choice, and puts doctors and patients in control of the system, not insurance companies.  Coverage will be more complete than private insurance plans, encourage prevention, and include prescription drugs. 

Dennis Kucinich is the only candidate with a detailed plan (HR 676) for national universal health care in America.  It’s time we joined the rest of the industrialized world by taking the private insurance companies out of health care.  Health care is a right. 
________________________________

So that link doesn't unjustifiably say that he has something that Carol Mosely-Braun doesn't have, either. Kucinich is in Congress, Mosely-Braun isn't. Kucinich has a bill, Mosely-Braun doesn't.

You give lip service to the idea that we're not supposed to be engaging in a circular firing squad, but you keep serving up blanks for the guns, anyway.

What gives?

Dan Brown
Saint Paul, Minnesota

[babzilla]

12. here is what gives:

the fact that the circular firing squad can and eventually will be turned upon your own candidate.

That is why it is unhelpful.

[dpbrown]

17. Mention that to the original poster of this thread, then

The original link was obviously a comparison of Kucinich and three candidates one of whom was not Carol Mosely-Braun.

It's a tribute to nothing more than mob mentality that so many people so far have clambored on board to try and turn it into a Kucinich roast.

If this is what you or anyone else might support the circular firing squad dispatching of Kucinich, I'm even more convinced that he's the strongest candidate than I was a few minutes ago.

Thanks for the boost.

Dan Brown
Saint Paul, Minnesota

[babzilla]

21. it is quite instructive, no?

I am sure this Dean supporter knows quite a lot about the mob mentality and those who are gleeful in their clamboring on.

warning: graphic circular firing squad threads ahead.

Another Dean "I AM THE ONLY" mailing hit New Mexico today
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=54093&mesg_id=54093

Dean's misleading NH ad
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=49199&mesg_id=49199

dean does it again aggghhhh
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=39573&mesg_id=39573

[dpbrown]

25. The "causes" are not analogous

Therefore the results are not comparable.

While I sympathize with the burden you're carrying over Dean's gaffes and the resultant outcry, this "claim" by Kucinich is not nearly similar, either in magnitude, context, or in effect.

The "word doc" linked to in the Google cache doesn't even exist anymore, and didn't look in any way like something that was meant for public consumption. That's quite a bit different from published and disseminated campaign pieces. And the first piece wasn't meant to compare Kucinich and Moseley-Braun, anyway.

Nevertheless, all candidates should be careful, obviously, of taking a position that can possibly be construed as capable of misinterpretation of the positions of their Democratic competition, and certainly should avoid denigrating their Democratic opponents, either in their printed campaign materials, or their speeches, or in their debates, or in their interviews.

I only hope that Kucinich continues to be as scrupulous as he has been to date on distinguishing himself from his Democratic co-candidates while remaining on the same team as all of them.

Dan Brown
Saint Paul, Minnesota

[babzilla]

27. take your lessons where you may find them

or argue that it doesn't apply to you.

Whether you agree on if it is analagous or not is beside the point. The results are the same.

[dpbrown]

29. "If" this was circular firing squad material on DK, then I'd agree

It's been proven that this is not the same kind of ammunition.

The warning about the general effects of the circular firing squad is lost on no one, but the specifics of this case as regarding Kucinich is distinguishable from the imbroglio Dean is immersed in regarding spreading mistruths about Kucinich.

[babzilla]

32. it is exactly the same kind of ammunition

the point is that anything can be construed as circular firing squad material, it just depends on who is doing the distinguishing.

[dpbrown]

33. In the same way a .45 blank looks like a .45 live round, sure

The differences on these facts outnumber the similarities, although the general concept of keeping people from engaging in a circular firing squad is, of course, the right idea.

[babzilla]

41. it all looks like buckshot to me

don't forget to wear your safety goggles.

[dpbrown]

46. I can appreciate how it looks from your perspective

I hope my candidate continues in his careful course to distinguish himself from his competition without resorting to the overbroad claims some of his competition have used.

[Mairead]

24. I certainly think he should be giving credit to AS and CMB

They deserve it. I don't like to see the campaign shaving things that closely. It makes DK look petty, which he very clearly is not.

[mzmolly]

44. Thanks Mairead

:)

Peace

[dpbrown]

50. Not in a piece distinguishing himself from Kerry, Gephardt, and Dean

Then it's just confusing.

[Mairead]

74. I'd disagree, Dan, honestly. It's just cheap not to do it.

It's not as though he has nothing else to his credit. That's Dean's problem--Dean has to jink and dodge that way and play the fine-print game because he has no actual goods in the parcel ('Elect me, my policies aren't quite as bad as Bush's'). But that's not true of DK, and I find it leaves a bad taste in my mouth when the campaign isn't as generous as it could be.

[Tinoire]

70. I thought the same at first and was going to call but see my other post

Braun never submitted a plan. Have you found one? If she has one, I would like them to change that.

[Mairead]

75. Agreed that CMB doesn't have a fully-fleshed plan, as DK does

But she has articulated the broad outlines...enough that the Labor Party could determine the answers to all but one of the questions on their laundry list, anyway. I know I have no problem with giving her credit--if she had a staff, I'm sure they'd have put flesh on the bones by now.

I think DK's plan to finance half the cost via a payroll tax offers a subtle advantage over hers or AS's plans, though. If I'm right, DK's would create an incentive to 'hire American', since moving jobs offshore would be less profitable than if companies could slough all the headcount costs as they can today.

[Cheswick2.0]

19. I am just getting so tired of his lies <hair flip> <flaired nostrils>

<hands on hips> <hair flip again> "Uh, I have just had enough of this! <stalks off to refrigerator for bon bons>

[Tinoire]

72. Lol- The category: the "No, no, what he MEANT when he said that"

((You are wicked great!))

Someone posts a quote from Candidate X saying he does not like foam rubber cheesehats.

Someone else posts a reply, yes, I saw that, and that's why I support Candidate Y, he understands the cheesehat issue.

Then Candidate X's Protection Squad arrive, to accuse the poster of making it up, attack the paper that published the original article, and deplore all this senseless bashing of Candidate X, and explain that Candidate X really loves foam rubber cheesehats, that is what he meant to say, and here is another quote from him saying he was so glad to get one for his birthday.

This post is quickly followed by other members of the Protection Squad who attempt to reassure cheesehat fans that X is just saying this because he has to, but once he is elected, his cheesehat policy will be the bestest ever, because Candidate X is the bestest ever, and will win.

And so it goes, until the Candidate Y people smell cheese, and proceed to post Y's praises of cheesehats for the last 10 years, and post a few photos of a smiling Y wearing a cheesehat.

This really makes the X people mad, Y is just pandering to cheesehat fans, but X is the one who really understands them, and when he said he didn't like them, it is because he LOVES them, and anyway, he will win, because he is bestest.


DuctapeFatwa

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=52480&mesg_id=52546

[Cheswick2.0]

80. I think it is hypocritcal for his supporters

to call Dean a Liar. Thank Goodness that "mass hysteria" died down.
My real problem is that he is a fiscal liberal and a social conservative.

[babzilla]

6. so he is inferring that CMB is not a major candidate?

I agree with you that using any candidate's proclamations of exclusivity regarding an issue is a straw man.

also from that page:

Which Way for the Democrats?

Federal budget priorities, global trade and criminal justice are not side issues. They are fundamental issues for the Democratic Party. Only a vote for Kucinich in the primaries will be counted as a vote for a Democratic Party with progressive vision and real solutions.

While it is true that any Democrat is preferable to Bush, it is also true that a primary vote for these other candidates can only be interpreted as encouraging a Democratic Party that supports the status quo and failed policies of the past. It's a vote that seems to say yes to bloated military budgets; regressive and racially-biased criminal justice; and a system of corporate globalization that harms the planet and people's aspirations in developing countries.

that must be the Nader influence talking.

[Rose Siding]

7. What I suppose, is that during this sniping over

who should be insulted and who got slighted, Bush policy has pulled sterile sheets from beneath millions of child bearing women in third world countries and that's just ONE- of the atrocities he's committed.

And we argue about whether the word "major" should be in the title or the text. heaven help us

[cryofan]

11. it's more about lying than anything else, isn't it?

I guess some people feel the ends justifies the means.

[Rose Siding]

14. I really wouldn't call Kucinich a liar for this

[dpbrown]

15. Well, since Kucinich isn't lying it's about other candidates' "ends" then

So as a Kucinich flame this fizzles out.

Dan Brown
Saint Paul, Minnesota

[Scott Lee]

9. Oh dear, where are all the "he says hes the only one!" screamers now?

Come on, guys.....you're missing the train here!

[dpbrown]

13. My guess: He's not saying that. Dean was, did, and does.

So as far as an attack on Kucinich's credibility this one falls flat.

Although I think the original poster of this thread was posting an honest question, the piling-on of rabble-rousers is just meant to flame Kucinich for no reason.

Dan Brown
Saint Paul, Minnesota

[Scott Lee]

47. Dennis K doesn't deserve a pile-on....but his supporters do

Hence the entire issue on DU over these candidates.

[dpbrown]

56. I wasn't the one saying he had left C. M-B out when he hadn't

Hence, this attack on Kucinich being different and more unsubstantiated than the earlier and more justified bringing of Dean's misstatement about opposing the invasion of Iraq to light. And that's the foundation upon which this unfounded and failing attack on Kucinich is based.

As far as I know, Kucinich supporters are more likely to stay on point, on message, and on the issues than the supporters of any other candidate on DU.

So I'm not worried about a pile-on.

[Cocoa]

22. I'm one of the screamers

and I think Dennis should give Carol credit, no question about it, she's as good imo on single-payer health as he is. Sharpton less so, because when asked about his plan on Hardball he couldn't give the most basic outlines of a plan.

I'll email Kucinich's campaign about it.

[dpbrown]

30. So this is how mobs get started?

It's already been proven that Kucinich never failed to give props to Carol Moseley-Braun regarding this issue, and that Kucinich was comparing himself only to Dean, Kerry, and Gephardt.

Writing to the Kucinich campaign complaining about something that never happened isn't going to do anyone any good.

Dan Brown
Saint Paul, Minnesota

[Cocoa]

34. I don't think it hurts to contact the campaigns

I think they appreciate the interest and the chance to address our concerns.

And on the "Which way" page, he's not specific about who he's talking about, he should, imo, have said a word about Braun.

Dennis is my #2, by the way, a close second to Gep for me.

[dpbrown]

40. I didn't mean to insinuate that it was a bad idea

I just wanted to point out that in this instance the instigation seemed to have been debunked.

[Scott Lee]

49. And DK would be wrong with that comparison. Here's why...

Howard Dean on health care:

-Dean's plan extends Medicaid and SCHIP to cover all children and young adults up to the age of 25. This will provide health care to 11.5 million uninsured children.

-Dean's plan then expands eligicility for the Families and Children Health Insurance Program to 185 percent of the poverty level and offers assistance for those with high premiums, covering 17.3 million adults who currently lack insurance.

-Dean's plan would also allow small business to cheaply buy into a national health care plan modeled after the one currently used for federal employees. In exchange for covering their workers, businesses will get lower rates.

Dean's plan also requires large businesses that benefit from large tax breaks to provide coverage to their workers. ("Governor Howard Dean, M.D.'s Health Care Plan for America" 5/13/03, 1)

In addition, the Governor has outlined an extensive plan entitled the "Healthy America Initiative" that aims to increase quality and efficiency in America's health care system. (Dean for America, 6/5/03)


Guess somebody for DK spoke a little prematurely.

[dpbrown]

51. Dean's plan will leave 10 million uninsured Americans

And it operates under the assumption that you can pump more money into a broken system and make it work better, opening him up to Republican attacks of being a tax-and-spend Democrat. Dean's plan is broken before it starts.

Only Kucinich and Moseley-Braun have the outline for single payer universal coverage (Sharpton's is inchoate, but falls into the same category).

Only Kucinich has a bill to that effect in Congress (although this doesn't reflect poorly on Carol Moseley-Braun, as she's not a sitting member of Congress).

[mzmolly]

57. Link to that claim please?

are you saying 10,000,000.00 people would have no access, or 10 mil would be wealthy enough to pay for it themselves via private insurance?

[dpbrown]

60. Dean never got more than 92% of Vermont covered

He'll get more people covered than we have covered now, but he'll leave 10 million out.

I tire of this cat-and-mouse game with Dean people. If you see this as hair-splitting, then you show how your candidate's plan is so perfect, but do it in another thread. This thread is about whether or not Kucinich failed to give sufficient props to Moseley-Braun.

Your candidate was wrong to make claims about opposing the invasion when his "verbal-only" opposition was neither as effective, nor as deep-rooted as Kucinich's.

Kucinich never failed to give sufficient props to Moseley-Braun, so the mock-similar attack on Dennis fails.

End of story.

[mzmolly]

63. You wish you could end the story

but Dean supporters did not start this ridiculous dialogue. It started with Dennis and his supporters constantly claiming Dean doesn't give props to other candidates when due.

However, you have not demonstrated that Dean will leave 10 mil uncovered. In fact if you look at the record...Vermont has one of the highest rates of HC coverage in the nation.

"Over 92 percent of all Vermonters have coverage - one of the highest rates in the country - and 96 percent of all children under 18 are covered. Dean believes the United States needs a health care system which results in coverage for every American."

Perhaps 8% of the population did not fill out required documentation to partake?

[Tinoire]

68. Dean was ranked very badly (failed) by the Labor Party and falls short

Dean got a no in each of the 8 important categories for a real plan

The ones who failed are (in order) Bush (absolute worse), Edwards, Kerry, Gephardt/Dean (tied), Lieberman (barely worse) - all received a "no" in all 8 categories

The ones who did better are 1. Kucinich, 2. Braun/Sharpton(tied to each other and practically tied with Kucinich)

The categories are

1 Includes Everyone
2 Controls Costs
3 Takes Profit Out
4 Cuts Link to Employment
5 Choice
6 Full Coverage
7 Fair Financing
8 Just Transition
9 Simple to Administer
10 Uninsured Covered
(in millions - 2001 data)


http://www.justhealthcare.org/PDF/scorecard.pdf
Sources: Commonwealth Fund, Physicians for a National Health Program, AFL-CIO, Candidates’ websites
====

Here is the problem with Dean's plan in a nutshell (both of the extracts are snipped from the crique of plan section):

A report on health care reform from the
ADA’s President, Congressman Jim McDermott
September 4, 2003

Dean:
Basing the UHBP on this model, with no improvements in cost control, is a recipe for insurance but not for comprehensive, affordable health care.

Kucinich:
Mr. Kucinich’s plan is by far the most comprehensive,
because it guarantees coverage to all Americans and
overhauls the health care finance system. It would
also do the best job of controlling costs among the
Presidential contenders’ plans.
The strengths of the plan are also the source of its
vulnerability—one group’s ‘cost control’ is another
group’s lower payment. This proposal would
probably face substantial resistance from influential,
well-entrenched groups that would expect to lose
under this proposal, such as insurance companies,
pharmaceutical companies and health care providers.
In addition, the plan is expensive, requiring a new
and large tax increase. Also, the prospect of a
government bureaucracy controlling health care
delivery could bring opposition.
Many of the concerns about this plan are unfounded.
Most employers would benefit under the plan because
health care would become less expensive—the 7.7%
payroll tax for health services is lower than the 8.5%
of payroll most employers currently devote to health
care. Health care providers would also benefit from
a consistent and reliable government-guaranteed
revenue stream as well as increased utilization of
health services by both the uninsured and
underinsured.

www.adaction.org/ADAHealthSecurityNews.pdf


=====
About Just Health Care (Just in case anyone wants to know who they are)

Just Health Care is the Labor Party's proposal for national health insurance: a public insurance fund and a private health care system with free choice of doctors, hospitals and clinics.

Instead of over 1,000 insurance companies creating mountains of paperwork and wasting our premium dollars, one insurance plan will cover everyone.

Think of it as a health insurance policy that provides guaranteed, lifetime health care coverage, whether you have a job or not.

How Does National Health Insurance Work?
Patients. For patients, national health insurance is simple. All U.S. residents will have a health insurance card which guarantees access to quality health care whenever and wherever we need it. Simply walk into a doctor's office, hospital or clinic of your choice, present your card and receive the care you need.

No money changes hands. Premiums, deductibles and co-payments are eliminated. You never receive a doctor, hospital or insurance company bill. You never wait to be reimbursed while haggling with insurance companies over what is and isn't covered.

Administration. The plan is simple to administer too. National health insurance eliminates the need for private insurance by creating one public insurance fund. The government collects revenues and state or regional boards reimburse doctors and hospitals for providing care.

National health insurance will keep costs in check by putting everyone in the same insurance pool, eliminating wasteful administrative costs and avoiding duplication of services, equipment and facilities.


Key Features of Just Health Care
Profit Out of Health Care
Whether it is the skyrocketing costs of traditional fee-for-service plans or the poor quality of managed care due to cutbacks in staffing, closing of hospital emergency rooms and denial or delay of needed care, our health is compromised under a profit-driven health care system.

As much as 30 cents of every premium dollar is squandered on enormous CEO salaries, shareholder profits, advertising and administration. The Labor Party calls for taking the profit out of health care.


Comprehensive Coverage
Many of us with health insurance pay out-of pocket for services such as dental care and prescription drugs and most of us lack sufficient coverage for a catastrophic or long-term illness. Nearly half of the 1 million Americans who file for bankruptcy - the majority with insurance - do so largely because of medical bills.

Just Health Care covers all appropriate care, including:

doctor visits
nursing home and long-term care
hospitalization
preventive & rehabilitative services
access to specialists
prescription drugs
mental health treatment
dental & vision services
occupational health services
medical supplies & equipment
http://www.justhealthcare.org/w_index.html

[redqueen]

83. That information deserves its own thread n/t

[Cheswick2.0]

10. That bastard, I demand he kiss up to me

Clearly he is a LIAR and shows no respect for women!

[KaraokeKarlton]

20. All of the candidates are for Universal Health Care

But Kucinich and Braun (Don't know about Sharpton) are for Single Payer. Whatever the case, Kucinich is NOT the only one calling for the kind of system he supports. Braun is too. If his website claims that then he's lying.

[dpbrown]

23. I already showed that he was not saying he was the only one

So your comment about Kucinich lying is unsupportable, and in the context of this thread, debunked before it was even written.

[mzmolly]

36. But he compared himself to others who are for Universal HC in that context

:shrug:

[dpbrown]

38. No, he compared himself to Dean, Kerry and Gephardt

That's why the piece had Dean, Kerry, and Gephardt in the title.

Thanks for playing.

[mzmolly]

42. Dean has a plan for UHC...

and plans to eliminate waste as well. I know Gep also has a plan, not sure about Kerry.

What do you think of Dennis being "the only" candidate who can remove fear? ;)

[dpbrown]

53. Dean's plan leaves in place a broken private insurance system

As to removing fear, Kucinich's general focus takes the edge away from warmongers and puts it in the hands of peacemongers.

Kucinich is the best remedy to the damage done and the fear caused by the PNAC nutballs and the BFEE, who use fear in order to control the population.

Just as Maslow's hierarchy of needs dictates that an individual can't rise above his or her basic needs until those needs are met, so to can the nation not rise back to its place at the table of nations until its basic needs for human respect and empowerment are met.

Kucinich is the candidate with the clearest plans to cure the ills affecting this nation from the disease that is the BFEE.

Dean just offers bluster.

[mzmolly]

64. My a 'broken' private insurance system

sounds like it's right off the website Dan. As for removing fear, I think that goal is a bit lofty frankly. Especially given recent events.

[Mairead]

78. No, Dean doesn't. His plan would leave 10M people out, or be 3-tier

depending on how you want to interpret his claims about those 10M.

His is a band-aid approach that leaves ALL the current profit and nonsense in the system, increases costs, and still doesn't solve the problem! He claims he can get it passed but not anything better, but given people's antipathy toward the for-profit industry his claim is speculative and self-serving at best.

Polls repeatedly show (and this was recently admitted by AARP's guy) that people STRONGLY prefer a Medicare solution over a private-insurance solution. For a decade or more, people have strongly supported the general principle of universal-coverage, single-payer, no-hassle healthcare. The Labor Party has also test-marketed their Just Health Care proposal and it's been supported at the 70%+ level everywhere. SUpport for universal-coverage/single-payer is above 50% even among Republicans.

[Mairead]

26. I think you should look at the JustHealthCare analysis

(url upthread) before you make claims that can be disproved so easily. Dean gets a zero for his plan -- it's not universal, it doesn't control costs, it's not non-profit, it doesn't disconnect from employment, it doesn't offer full coverage, it doesn't offer fair financing, and it's not any simpler to administer.

[mzmolly]

61. Justhealthcare

notes CMD and Sharpton as equal to Dennis on HC. They arr affiliated also affiliated with the labor party as well. Not that that is an issue, but it's a partisan organization.

http://www.justhealthcare.net/PDF/scorecard.pdf

[Mairead]

76. Yes, CMB and Sharpton's plans are broadly equivalent to DK's.

But where do you get this 'partisan organisation' bit? 'Partisan'?

(And none of the candidates are 'affiliated' with the Labor Party, to my knowledge. I'm a member, and I think I would have heard. The LP has a progressive political agenda very like DK's and AS's, but that's been true since its founding; that was the PURPOSE of its founding)

[OhioStateProgressive]

31. claims he is the only one with a plan

he is, he even put it forth in Congress...Moseley Braun just says she is for single payer health care...in her case it is really just pandering

[OhioStateProgressive]

28. big point missed

Dennis actually is the only one who has put a plan forth on the floor of Congress

the other people may say "we are for it", but only Dennis has a concrete plan

truth hurts

[mzmolly]

39. wow, that's quite a claim. CMB isn't in congress, so all she can have is

a plan. I don't call that pandering.

[maha]

45. You don't understand

He's the ONLY CANDIDATE who is REALLY against the Iraq war, and the ONLY ONE with a plan to get the troops out, and the ONLY ONE who is a REAL progressive, and the ONLY ONE who can walk on water and turn stones into fish and knows what's good for you. So don't badmouth him, or you'll be on the "disappear" list when he takes over the world.

[mzmolly]

58. You forgot one...

He's the ONLY candidate who can "remove fear"... :P

[tinanator]

81. thats for certain, especially

if you happen to be Palestinian.

[Green4Dean]

65. Actually when Carol was in the Senate she did

She co-sponsored a bill That Wellstone authored...I think Simon and Kennedy backed it too...

[mzmolly]

67. Good to know.

:)

[sandnsea]

66. Carol's uses private insurance

"And with the revenue that we have from that, from that 15 percent, we can then afford a system much like the federal employees have under what's called FEHBP, a federal system in which you have a single payer but the administration takes place by the companies that individuals choose."
http://www.carolforpresident.com/content.php?page=issues_fortherecord

That's the difference between the two. Dennis is the only candidate that takes the profit out of health care.

[Tinoire]

69. Also Braun never submitted a detailed plan to the PNHP

Apart from the fact which you graciously conceded that that snip is from an article only comparing Kucinich's plan to Gephardt, Kerry and Dean, I believe the issue is that Mosely-Braun never submitted a detailed plan to Physicians for a National Health Program (http://www.pnhp.org/).

She said she was in agreement with the idea but never submitted anything for examination.

Frankly, when I first read your post, I was alarmed because that would have been wrong of Kucinich to do but a little digging cleared it up before I even read your concession (because I hadn't even noticed the title of the article of the snip). If Braun had submitted (or were to submit) a plan, I would totally agree with you but so far I've never seen a plan for it. I like Braun but I have the impression that she's not taking this campaign seriously enough. The Arab-American Institute had the same problem over the I/P issue.

Anyway, here's the statement from Jim McDermott, who headed the committee:

In this first issue, you will see a summary of the health reform proposals of Democratic Presidential candidates, including Governor Howard Dean, Senator John Edwards, Representative Richard Gephardt, Senator John Kerry, and Representative Dennis Kucinich (other candidates have not issued detailed plans).
The intent of these analyses is to provide an overview of the approach each candidate has taken, with sufficient detail to provide an understanding of each approach. These analyses are based on press reports, articles and documents provided by their campaign offices.

www.adaction.org/ADAHealthSecurityNews.pdf

[Green4Dean]

73. a plan on her website isn't good enough?

Kucinich isn't the only candidate that supports single payer...Sharpton wants to make Health care a constitutional right...Braun has a plan that Mario cuomo has praised...

[Tinoire]

77. A few paragraphs on a vision do not a plan make

The difference is between a plan and a vision, or even a plan and a goal and one cannot evaluate a goal.

I would urge you to study the detailed plans of the 5 candidates who took this issue seriously enough to commit their detailed plans to paper so that they could be examined and judged by the Physicians for a National Health Program in coordination with Jim McDermott.

The 5 candidates who "issued detailed plans" are "Governor Howard Dean, Senator John Edwards, Representative Richard Gephardt, Senator John Kerry, and Representative Dennis Kucinich"

If you have a problem with them requiring more than 4 quotes to qualify what she has on her web-site as a plan, you might want to consider writing to

1. The candidate herself requesting she issue a detailed plan http://www.carolforpresident.com/content.php?page=contact

2. Jim McDermott accusing him of being biased http://www.house.gov/mcdermott/contact.html

3. The PNHP requesting they read her mind http://www.pnhp.org/about/contact_us.php

Option 1 would probably be the most productive one if you're truly concerned.

The would also apply to any issues you have with Sharpton's vision/goal not being considered a detailed plan.

http://sharpton2004.org/index.php?menuID=Page&pid=5


On edit- sorry for sounding so snitty. I am going to bed. Getting too cranky but those are the points I want to make...

[Clark4VotingRights]

71. I think Kucinich's health care plan is the most inclusive & comprehensive.

I believe the others' plans are basically patching the existing system.
That includes both Dean and Clark (who I...obviously support).