The bottom line reason Hillary is losing

[cali]

She isn't likable enough. I really do believe that's at the root of her losing to Obama. There's something about Hillary that a lot of people find off putting. When you come right down to it, she had so many advantages she really should have walked away with the nomination.
Call it arrogance or poor planning or sexism or whatever you want, but it's really about the likability factor. We may not like how important it is, but it's absurd to deny what a big role likability plays.

[goldcanyonaz]

1. Another bottom line? Obama is not winning by much, this is getting ridiculous.

And, neither will win without the aid of the Super Delegates.

[scheming daemons]

3. Deep down, even you know that the SDs will go with whoever has won the PDs.....

...

[cali]

8. He's winning. period.

and the SD trend over the past couple of months couldn't be clearer. She really should have won this thing. She had all the advantages. She blew it, just as much as anything.

[truedelphi]

96. Now Now the mainstream media just announced the other day that

Unless Obama can avoid losing big, he wil lose to Hillary. (I couldn't make this $h** up if I tried. Even as a satirist I couldn't be this blatantly absurd!)

They don't even stop and consider how absurd the SPIN is getting on this issue.

[scheming daemons]

2. Agreed..... that *IS* the bottom line.... people cannot stand the idea of ...

...hearing her prevarications for the next four years, and then hearing her evil cackle when the press calls her on it.


People *WANT* to be able to stand the idea of tuning in to see their president.


With Hillary Clinton, people will turn away in droves every time she comes on TV. Most will automatically disbelieve anything that comes out of her mouth.

[goldcanyonaz]

4. The same amount of people turn away in droves every time Obama comes on TV too.

[scheming daemons]

6. No... they really don't.... his negatives are at 37%....hers are at 52%......

[movonne]

29. No just a few....

[goldcanyonaz]

31. Oh please, this forum is closer to La La Land than reality. And many don't like Obama either.

[scheming daemons]

34. OUTSIDE of DU.... 37% negatives for Obama, 52% negatives for Hillary...

Slightly more than 1/3 of the population hates Obama.

Slightly more than 1/2 of the population hates Clinton.



This is OUTSIDE of DU.... not "La La Land".... but AMERICA.

[cbayer]

113. Would you mind posting a link? nt.

[PoliticalAmazon]

87. Considering Hillary was the "inevitable" candidate, Obama's #'s...

...prove you wrong.

Remember, Hillary said it would all be over after UberTuesday? And here she is, hanging on by her well-worn fingernails.

[PoliticalAmazon]

81. HRC started as the "inevitable" candidate; nobody knew Obama...

...However, as both candidates got more exposure, and people had a chance to see how they were running their campaign, campaign tactics, and found out more information, people began turning away from HRC towards Obama.

She came into this primary with a huge advantage; now she's on her last legs.

It's because, after really seeing what she has to offer, they prefer what Obama has to offer.

[Ilithiad]

5. Hillary is losing...

because a lot of left over stigmatism with Bill Clinton and Monica lewinsky scandal is affecting her chances...about her misspokes? Every politician lies or exagerrates the truth to their advantage. The only ones who really dislike her are republicans because they know she is by far the most dangerous opponent to republican resistance to national healh care for free.

[C_U_L8R]

9. It's unfortunate but no one likes a loser

particularly when the losing is so hard earned.

[RaleighNCDUer]

33. Nonsense.

Nobody really gives a crap about Bill and Monica. Not every politician lies - though they do all spin. And many of us dislike her because of her solid membership in the DLC, which is a self-defined fifth column within the Democratic party - if there are two parties, and you promote yourself as a "third way" then you are, logically, separating yourself from BOTH parties; IOW, DLC are not Democrats, by their own admission.

And welcome to DU. It's a great place to get a political education.

[PoliticalAmazon]

89. I think she's losing because of her own actions in this campaign, not...

...Bill's Nookiegate.

Although some people may just not want to go through another 4 years of the drama we had during the first 8 years of WJC's administration.

For me the kicker was that he started an affair with an INTERN, in the WHITE HOUSE, at the same time he was undergoing the attention and deposition planning for Paula Jones.

He's incurable, IMO, and our country cannot afford another 4 years of hobbling the Democrats because Clinton can't control his dick.

[benddem]

7. I really liked her

till this campaign. Geraldine Ferraro asked if Barack Obama wasn't black...would he be this far. Well if Hillary's last name wasn't Clinton...where would she be? I'm sorry I just can't see how her experience...and we've found out a lot of what she thought was her experience wasn't. Her whole campaign is based on what she will do. I'd like to think this will be a national effort.
BUT if she is the nominee I will vote for her and the people who won't vote cause it isn't the candidate they chose...Bah Humbug. Think of the Supreme Court. We cannot afford 4-8 years of Republicans.

[goldcanyonaz]

10. What Ferraro said about Obama is what is said about her daily around here. Hence your opinion.

"She wouldn't be here if she wasn't a Clinton." Why is it okay for you to say that but her opinion is not okay.

[benddem]

It's not my opinion

it is a fact. If her name was Sen.Hillary Brown with 30 years as a corporate lawyer and 8 years as a corporate wife...and 6 years as a senator...she'd be NO WHERE.

[goldcanyonaz]

22. Then what she is saying about him is also a fact.

[RaleighNCDUer]

37. Because the Obama comment is based on a racial generalization.

The Hillary comment is based on a personal specific.

Obama comment - WHAT he is.
Hillary comment - WHO she is.

[goldcanyonaz]

41. The Clinton comment is based on gender generalizations.

But, that's okay around here.

[RaleighNCDUer]

66. No, it isn't. It is based on the simple fact that she does not have

the qualifications, and that without the Clinton brand she would be sitting this election year out. Obama spent years in public service, served in the state legislature, worked his way into this position. She served one term in a senate seat which she would never have won if she had been just another corporate lawyer with her credentials.

IOW, she's not where she is because she was Bill's WIFE; she's where she is because she was BILL'S wife. Had she been anyone else's wife, with her credentials, she'd be nowhere.

She hasn't run the bases. Years ago she hit a single; then Bill carried her around to third base; now, she claims a right to call it a home run as she struggles to get from 3rd to home.

ON EDIT:
Perhaps you're right. Maybe ANY woman who was married to Bill would be exactly where she is now.

[goldcanyonaz]

83. What has your chosen one ever done, besides rename a post office?

[RaleighNCDUer]

88. You don't REALLY want me to answer that, do you?

I prefer not to embarass you.

[goldcanyonaz]

90. I've been embarrassed before. Not suggested legislation either, but passed ones.

[PoliticalAmazon]

106. Stop the whining spin! Please. Not liking HRC has nothing to do..

...with HRC's gender. In fact, disliking her is IN SPITE of her gender, because I had always thought that, if it was going to happen in my lifetime, HRC would be the first woman president.

Please stop this spin into misogyny issues that have nothing to do with gener. I don't know why you or HRC would like to be seen as a victim, but I can tell you that, from my perspective, it is not flattering and it does not enhance the likelihood that HRC will win.

[PoliticalAmazon]

105. I was a very strong Hillary Clinton supporter. I met her once, and...

...attended a few functions in which she appeared. I was a huge HRC fan, but when she started running for Senate,that all changed.

In my experience of HRC, she changed when she started running for Senate, and has worsened since then.

[NJmaverick]

11. Like John Kerry, she lacks charisma

As much as that shouldn't be a requirement for President, you can't get elected with out it.

[goldcanyonaz]

15. They said the same thing about Gore.

[scheming daemons]

16. Which is why he essentially tied Bush instead of beating him by 10%

...

[NJmaverick]

25. Very true

[movonne]

28. And honesty, and Penn, etc...

[karynnj]

117. Kerry had plenty of charisma

That was why the media rarely let people see more than a minute or two of his speeches - showing instead there talking head.

[JackORoses]

12. Nobody likes a Bad Liar.

[MyNameGoesHere]

14. What and they like a good liar?

I can't fathom that.





Why is Superman checking out my ass?

Banned from using a Signature photo.

[redqueen]

19. They seemed to like Bill.

:shrug:

[MyNameGoesHere]

32. I can't see that either. other than HRC he is

the most execrated person on the planet. Well at least here.





Why is Superman checking out my ass?

Banned from using a Signature photo.

[redqueen]

42. Oh give me a break...

the most execrated person on the planet?

:rofl:

How are you "banned from using a signature photo"? :wtf:

[MyNameGoesHere]

54. I did say "here"

most non-fanatical people still like Bill. Why at one time he was even a minor figure of renown here. But then the candidate for change, unity, we are all Americans, and all that jazz came by and showed we must hate and despise, but talk a good game. So the DU world changed.

Well my guess about the sig thing is they didn't like my pull my finger America Obama photo. And it was clearly a violation as it went a few pixels over size.<I had to throw that in there because god forbid it that i suggest there is a consorted effort to ban HRC supporters. I have been assured that that is the case and I have no reason not to believe them.>
I am lucky it wasn't the gulags for me i suppose.




Why is Superman checking out my ass?

Banned from using a Signature photo.

[redqueen]

58. Oh so it's a distortion?

:rofl:

So you're not "banned from using a Signature photo"... you were told that one was over the size limit... is that it?

Yeah... the whole "in the world" and "here" was sorta weird...


As for your recollection that he was renowned here... well that was from your perspective. Cause I've always considered him to be the best Republican president we've ever had... and I know I'm not the only one who didn't view his administration through rose-colored glasses.

[MyNameGoesHere]

62. yeah you are a better

person than me obviously, my writing gets a bit tangled sometimes. And no I am indeed banned from using a signature. sigh what on earth will i ever do?





Why is Superman checking out my ass?

Banned from using a Signature photo.

[redqueen]

65. What is with all the melodrama?

Geez I didn't attack you for it...


I guess if you can't have a sig you can just post that giant frickin pic and melodramatic claim about it in every single post. That's not annoying. :P

[goldcanyonaz]

52. Damn skippy. It's great to shit on the Clintons around here.

[PoliticalAmazon]

110. They have eagerly earned the criticism they receive. n/t

[goldcanyonaz]

114. bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla

[JackORoses]

49. some people did like Bill back in the day. He was a Good Liar, if there is such a thing.

Hillary just doesn't have the chops to pull it off.
Like a bad High School Theatre Arts play....

[mtnsnake]

60. You seem to know alot about liars and lying, jack-off. Funny about that.

[JackORoses]

68. I knew Bush was a Liar when the rest of the country was waving flags

I know Hillary is a Liar.
Call it intuition. Call it a close attention to the truth.

You can never really trust someone who has compromised themselves into accepting that the ends justify the means.
If they will lie and cheat to beat Barack Obama. They would do it to you, too.
Don't fool yourself into thinking they are on your side.

[mtnsnake]

23. Well if it isn't Jack-Off Roses showing up to spew more of his own lies

[JackORoses]

53. do you like Liars, mountedsnake?

especially really terrible ones like Hilly?

She will never have a career in acting. But a cackle-over for a Halloween Spooky Sounds CD might be in the cards...

[mtnsnake]

56. Jack-off, have you ever posted a positive thing about Obama? No you haven't

You're obvioulsly just a dimwitted JACK-OFF who is here to spread the seeds of hatred and divisiveness by lying about the Clintons.

[JackORoses]

73. Barack Obama is a Great Man.

This Country needs a Community Organizer,
a Civil Rights Attorney,
a Constitutional Law Professor,
a State and US Senator,
a Good and Honest Human Being.


We do not need another Presidency of Appearances.
We do not need another Corporate Lawyer.
We do not need another Clinton or McBush.

[Tarheel_Dem]

82. no one has to lie about the Clintons. If you're connected with the campaign

you might want to let them know about You Tube? You guys are really proficient at defending the indefensible.

:eyes:

[onenote]

13. it is her major weakness

no question about it.

From the very outset of her national public "career" she has had trouble with the "likability" factor. She was viewed in considerably less favorable terms than Bill even when he was first running in 1992 and pretty much throughout his presidency. Why? Probably a lot of it is indeed sexist -- she wasn't the typical June Cleaver-like first lady prospect. But whatever the reason, its stuck with her.

Personally, I think its a shame. I think she is more likable than her public persona suggests but the fact is that, at this point, I don't see how she can turn it around. Obama's likability factor is higher -- and is more susceptible, I imagine, to change in either direction. Some may fall "out of love" with Obama over the course of the GE campaign. Others may find that they assumed things about him that aren't true and decide he's an okay guy. In the end, its hard to predict which way it would go, although there is reason to think he win over more than he'll turn off.

Hillary, however, probably won't turn off anyone she hasn't already turned off. But she probably won't be able to win back many people who have made up their minds about her.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

17. God help me for saying this

But the thing about Clinton I despise the most, from a personal demeanor standpoint, is that incessant smirk on her face. That smug, self-satisfied, half smile she displays whenever she thinks she's ahead or has just lobbed a cheap shot at her opponent. It's the kind of look this Bushbot former friend of mine had around me for several weeks after Dumbya got re-elected. Needless to say, I ended that friendship.

Don't tell me it's a facial expression she has no control over. It's a smirk and you know it.

[Ino]

109. You'll love this clip then

Hilliary's half-smile while Gravel takes her to task for her Kyle-Lieberman vote, followed by cackling laughter when asked to reply. She uses that response to render the question - no matter how serious - as ridiculous.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=L3gQfz8GC0o

I think she often uses a half-smile as a mini-facelift. Without it, her mouth turns down and her whole face droops.

[PoliticalAmazon]

18. ITA. As people have gotten to know both HRC and BO better, it's clear...

...that they like Obama and don't like HRC.

[cottonseed]

20. That and she's being punished for IWR and familial presidencies.

I think she's had a hard time with that IWR vote. Also, fair or not, she's taking the brunt of a backlash against presidencies within the family.

[mtnsnake]

21. Maybe so, but the Right Wing had lots to do with making her not as likable as she should be

They have flooded the airwaves for over a decade doing their best to portray Hillary as EVIL.

It might also be said that the only reason Obama is beating her is because he is SO likable.

When it comes to competence, I don't think anyone can match Hillary. I like her enough, but you're right, she might not be likable enough to win this thing as easily as she should have.

[cali]

24. it's more than that.

that's part of it certainly, but it's also something in her.

[mtnsnake]

35. Sure it's more than just what the Right Wing has done to her

I have a relative who is extremely brilliant and a great down to earth guy. However, whenever he talks (socially), it's as if he's giving a speech...with the little hesitations geared to get your attention and the mannerisms of a public speaker. It's neat at first but annoying after the third time. I wonder if some people don't like Hillary's delivery when she speaks. I think if she were to speak in public the same way she speaks to an old college girlfriend on the telephone, people would feel more comfortable with her, if you know what I mean.

So...maybe it's that some people don't feel comfortable with her when she speaks? Not everyone is that gifted as a speaker that they can come off as being totally down to earth when talking in public.

[scheming daemons]

26. Likability matters.... people want a President that they like....

....

and with 52% negativity ratings for Hillary... it is clear that most of America really can't stomach the thought of seeing her smirk and hearing her cackle for the next four years.

[RaleighNCDUer]

55. Nonsense.

The reasons the right wing dislike Hillary have NOTHING to do with the reasons the progressive left dislike her. In fact, they are usually diametrically opposed. The RW hates the idea of universal healthcare - the left hates the idea of universal health insurance mandated on the public. The RW hates that he (currently) opposes the war - the left hates the fact that she was a war booster until '06, when it suddenly became unpopular.

And if you think she is so competent, have you looked at her campaign lately?

Her DLC positions, "triangulating" between the left and right, only guarantees that she will be disliked by both the left and right. We don't need a "third way". We just need to get back to the Democratic way.

[PoliticalAmazon]

111. Not true for this Democrat. I was a loyal HRC supporter until...

...she started running for Senate when either she changed, or her true nature became more visible.

What the rightwing targeted HRC and WJC with had nothing to do with my falling opinion of them. In fact, I had several pages outing Scaife and his toadies on my website.

You can't blame the rightwing for dems' opinions of the Clinton. Most of us were once their supporters, but the way they are now---I am actively working against her campaign.

[tabasco]

27. The reason she's not likabe? She's a lying, gutless POS.

She will tell you one thing and turn around and tell another person something different.

[mtnsnake]

38. self delete

not worth the aggrevation

[scheming daemons]

40. Just because she has a "D" next to her name doesn't mean she's not a liar....

[mtnsnake]

44. Imagine if you were put under the same microscope as her

....the amount of things that people could nitpick, twist, and turn into "lies"

It's amazing that they can't come up with anymore than they do on her.

[scheming daemons]

70. I never made up entirely false accounts of sniper fire to enhance my resume....

...nor repeated the lie on four separate occasions while on video.

[Dr Fate]

30. Since when in the past 8 years has the DLC model ever won a major political battle?

Of any kind- election or otherwise?

Poor strategy, poor planning and living several years in the past, as always.

But yeah- the perception (whether it is fair or not fair)that she is unlikeable didnt help either.

If she had not have hitched her star to the old-timey DLCers and if her DLC types had embraced a few elements of the net-roots, she wouldnt be in this mess.

[mtnsnake]

46. Apparently you have missed all the latest associations that have been made to Obama & the DLC

If you want me to post some of them, I'll be glad to. Let me know.

[Dr Fate]

51. So you think Obama ran a DLC style campaign? I think he ran a grass-roots campaign.

I said "DLC model" for a reason.

I'm aware of Obama's centrist associations, and I have no huge problem with them.

Obama did not run his campaign using the 1990's, old time, losing, top-down DLC model- he did it from the bottom up- and he did not insult and belittle the netroots & activist base.

I've never had a problem with good moderates (I am one, thank you) and I even like some of the DLC's platform planks- but I've always had a problem with the DLC's habit of insulting, ignoring and distancing themselves from the grass-roots, anti-war & activist base.

It's a mistake Obama didnt make- so good on him.

[mtnsnake]

63. It's not even arguable that a major premise of his campaign is the most DLC of anyone's

For example, his "Reach out to Republicans" theme is blatantly DLC in nature, more so than any other 2008 candidate who was in the race. Even his close friend Harold Ford, has spoken about how Obama wants to find ways to work with the DLC.

[cali]

67. that's so silly. there's nothing that makes that

uniquely DLCish. That's been around as a campaign line for generations. And Ford is not a close friend of Obama's. Furthermore, Obama has rejected the offer to join the DLC. Hillary,however you cut it, is an integral part of the organization- not that I see that as as big a deal as many here.

[mtnsnake]

69. Because Obama isn't a card carrying member means he isn't running a DLCish campaign?

Then how do you explain that his campaign is more DLCish than anyone elses of all the 2008 candidates?

BTW, I never said Hillary wasn't an integral part of the organization.

[Dr Fate]

75. How is embracing & winning the trust of "the far left nut roots" the "most DLCish?"

The most DLC campaign was the one ran by the de-facto figure heads of the DLC itself, the Clintons.

Since when did it become the house policy of the DLC to court the internet & grass roots base?- My perception was they wanted to distance themselves from those "far left, anti-war, key-board warrior" types.

They BOTH set out to get cross-over votes from Repubs- but it was only Obama that made it happen.

[mtnsnake]

79. I didn't say it was. Where did I mention the "far left nut roots"?

I said he's embracing the other side, the Republicans by reaching out to them during the Primaries.

[Dr Fate]

84. The DLC, not Obama, insulted us the "far left nut roots" all the time.

And that is one reason why she is behind, in my opinion.

As centrist & moderate as Obama is, he made it pretty clear that he wanted our support, ideas and votes, as opposed to trying to marginalize us. I had the opposite perception when it came to Carville, Bullmoose, Lieberman and other DLC types.

We already agree that Obama arguably took a page from the DLC handbook by reaching out to moderate Repubs- what I cant seem to get you to see is that he reached out to them AND got the support of the grass-roots as well- something that I dont think a pure DLC approach could have accomplished in the same degree.

[Dr Fate]

71. No- Hillary ran with the old-time Top Down, big-state, DLC model. Obama embraced the grass-roots.

Obmama embraced what the typical DLCer might call "the far-left, crazy, angry, nutroots"-ie the grass-roots. The DLC model is to keep distance from those types.

Obama managed to get some of both-imagine that!

So yes- he did combine a grass roots model with a few of the better ideas fromthe DLC playbook- like reaching out across party lines.

Over the past few years, I've heard how one of the DLC's goal was to reach out to Republicans- but it was Obama, not Hillary who actually pulled it off.

Also-I'm glad that Obama wants to work w/ the DLC- I think the DLC should have been more connected to and willing work with the grass roots all along- if they had been, Hillary would probably be winning.

It may suprise you, but as a moderate myself, I've never had a problem with the basic idea of a conservative or centrist wing of DEMS, per-se, it's their methods and attitudes towards the rest of the base that I opposed.

My opposition to them began when they started insulting and belittling my positons on fighting Bush and opposing the war- something the Obama campaign never did.

[mtnsnake]

78. Obama has won many of his states by embracing & reaching out to Republicans

which is a major strategical theme of the DLC. I agree with you on much of what you're saying about the general philosophy of the candidates as related to the DLC, but I'm just saying it's not fair for anyone to bash Hillary in this Primary for her DLC membership when Obama is running a more DLCish campaign than she is. Obama is no dummy. He's tweaking it to his advantage, but he wants it both ways, too. He wan't the best from the DLC without actually becoming a card carrying member because he knows that won't go over with the liberal base of our Party if he were to become a member.

[Dr Fate]

80. Imagine that- he got the "out-of-touch, far left" grass-roots AND some republicans to support him.

Something the old time, DLC, top-down model couldnt manage. We were all told on DU that it wa Hillary-the offical DLC candidate- who was going to manage that.

I strongly disagree with you that Obama's embracing of the anti war, internet & grass roots DEMS amounts to "a more DLCish" campaign- it's the antithisis of the DLC model that Hillary used.

Perhaps we can agree that Obama's newer, synthesised model took the best from both worlds.

[mtnsnake]

86. Yes he's trying to take "the best from both worlds"

I'll agree with you on that and I've already implied as much. Otherwise he wouldn't be trying to appeal to the "out-of-touch, far left" grass-roots, as you call them, nor would he be reaching out to Republicans like he has, either.

strongly disagree with you that Obama's embracing of the anti war, internet & grass roots DEMS amounts to "a more DLCish" campaign

If that's all it was, and if a major priority of his current campaign didn't involve his "Reach out to Republicans" theme, then I would strongly agree with you. I do agree on lots of what you're saying, though.

Peace

[RaleighNCDUer]

93. You obviously don't know, or are pretendeing not to know, what

the DLC is about.

Remember how Reagan made traitors of so many democrats - the infamous "Reagan Democrats"? The DLC saw that as a sign that the party needed to move to the right, and abandon long-held Democratic ideals. Obama, OTOH, in reaching out to Republicans, is trying to make THEM traitors to THEIR party, to make them Obama Republicans, who are abandoning their long-held Republican beliefs.

So you have the DLC abandoning Democratic values - and you have Obama convincing republicans to abandon their republican values.

Which is a "DLC campaign"?

[mtnsnake]

103. I know what it's about, but I believe you are spinning what Obama is doing

in order to make it look like he's not running with a DLC campaign theme, when he most certainly is. No matter which way you spin it, Obama's "Reach out to Republicans" is a main ingredient of the DLC's philosophy when it comes to their philosophy of how to win campaigns.

Time will tell (if he wins the nomination), if his DLC stategy will work, or if it won't, during a general election.

[RaleighNCDUer]

108. His dragging Republicans to the left is NOT a DLC campaign.

It is the Anti-DLC campaign. And it is beating the pants off the DLC campaign.

The DLC is history. They haven't won anything in the past 8 years because people have figured out, if you want a republican vote for a republican, not for a democrat who acts like a republican. Now, we are ready for a Democrat who acts like a Democrat.

There's a HUGE difference between "reaching out" to republicans and embracing republicans, which is the REAL DLC strategy.

[aquarius dawning]

36. because she didn't win enough caucuses in those all important red states?

or because black people didn't throw their support to her unilaterally as they did to Obama?

[Zhade]

39. No, because she's a proven fucking liar.

NT!

[aquarius dawning]

43. No, I think my assessment is more accurate actually.

[mtnsnake]

47. Why is it that DU's most notorious liars always claim that Hillary is a liar?

I don't think I've ever seen you do a post that didn't make claims as to Hillary being a liar.

Listen to Limbaugh much, do ya?

[cali]

45. no. Whether you can deal with it or not

she has a problem with likability. There are indeed a lot of factors, but the bottom line is that Hillary has and has had since she's been in public life, a likability problem. She doesn't come off as comfortable in her own skin.... or something like that. People frequently say that in private she's warm and funny and relaxed, but she's largely unable to convey those qualities in her public persona.

[aquarius dawning]

50. The likability factor is secondary to other factors.

She lost because of caucus elections in red states and unilateral endorsement by the African American community. Outside of DU and other far left circles, she's not nearly as unpopular as you would like to believe and; furthermore, should Obama get the nomination, you'll find his overwhelming popularity was very much a figment of your imagination.

[cali]

57. nonsense.

Why didn't Hillary organize in caucus states? And she certainly didn't. Why did the African American vote become so lopsided? Initially, she had it. And sorry, her negatives are much higer than his and much highe than McCain's. It isn't about what I'd like or not like to believe. It's about what I See and what the facts reflect.
Nor am I saying that Obama is overwhelmingly popular. YOU are projecting all over the place, and quite simply, you're not rational enough to discuss this with any dispassion.

[aquarius dawning]

85. Nope, spot on.

Why did the African American vote become so lopsided?
because it wasn't initially obvious that he even had a chance. Once it became clear that he did, it was all over. You can blame Bill for some perceived slight against the community but most people know that this was BS. Bill Clinton a racist? Give me a break.

Why didn't Hillary organize in caucus states?
Because it was anticipated that it would not be necessary I suspect. Look at Texas though as a shining example which supports my assessment. It's a red state without any doubt. It has a Primary and a caucus. She won handily in the Primary portion and then lost in the caucus. Why? because of the unilateral support of African Americans in the large urban areas via the caucus system. Kansas-same thing. Alaska-same thing. Nevada same thing. Wyoming-same thing. Idaho-same thing. North Dakota-same thing. Iowa-same thing. Nebraska-same thing. Colorado-same thing. These are all traditionaly red states that utilize the caucus system to pick democratic candidates and Obama is winning this primary race because of it.

It's about what I See and what the facts reflect.
I just gave you the facts as I see them. let's talk about those if you want to talk about facts.

Nor am I saying that Obama is overwhelmingly popular.
I'm only saying that Obama, in general election terms, is not more likable than Hillary. They're probably about equal actually.

you're not rational enough to discuss this with any dispassion.
I have been rational enough in this thread and have provided objective data to back up my hypothesis. You, on the other hand, have offered subjective data and opinions to support your hypothesis which is itself pretty subjective and biased considering your own passionate support for Obama.

[Life Long Dem]

48. I may not like her, but that didn't stop me from taking a long look at her.

I would have had a hard time in the beginning of her Presidency, but I think she would have grown on me. I really do. I have seen some good qualities - as far as personality goes. When she is herself she seems to be her best, but that doesn't come out too often. I think I saw this a couple times.

But don't get me wrong, I still have policy issues with her, and I'm not happy with her attacks on Obama at this stage in the race. She could have been on the side lines like Ron Paul. But because she did this, I don't see her having another chance in 2012. But by what Bill said, by then we will have memory problems and won't even remember if she even went to Bosnia or damaged Obama. Then we get into her stance on the issues once again, and the same for Bill. But what if anything will change with the Clinton's?

[loveangelc]

59. even when she tries to come off as likeable, it just seems so robotic and fake.

i saw her on idol gives back and her speaking style was just..off...very robotic-ish.

[Tarheel_Dem]

91. it's the botox...nt

[Neshanic]

61. "She isn't likable enough". She is running against a cartoon.

Some caricature of a politician that promises everything for everyone. Suprisingly people want someone that will magically change the world FOR them, without any pain or sacrafice on their part. Add a sub-group of Cultural Revolution wannabes, and there you have it. Mr. Perfect.

[cali]

64. this actually has more to do with hillary than obama.

she's long had problems being seen as likable. some of that is imposed from outside, but some of it is simply her public persona. and your contorted view of obama is due to your pathetic hate. he doesn't prominse everything to everyone. and that is not the root of his support.

[mtnsnake]

72. She is running against more of an illusion than anything

Of course you're going to be likable when you don't provide any of the tough answers to how you're going to create all this change he's talking about. It's all an illusion, an illusion that won't work in the General Election unless he starts coming up with answers to the tough questions of HOW he's going to invoke all this change he speaks of.

[cali]

77. but he has done. and no, it's not an illusion

he's run a tough, smart campaign. he's answered tough questions. he has very specific policies. and he has an excellent chance of beating McCain- even without your vote.

[mtnsnake]

126. "he has an excellent chance of beating McCain- even without your vote"

I challenge you to show me a single post where I ever said I wouldn't vote for the Dem nominee. I'm gonna wait here all night to see what you come up with. This ought to be good.

[mtnsnake]

130. Cat got your tongue, cali? I'm waiting for that mysterious post still

:shrug:

[Tarheel_Dem]

95. That "caricature" as you call him, has run one hell of a campaign

against the most fierce political machine in modern history, and you can't accept that people just weren't buying what Hillary was trying to sell....botox and all.

And you sound pathetically like your loser leader. We don't all expect the heavens to open, and angels to be singing, but we do expect a leader with integrity, and who is a TRUTH teller. The "pain and sacrifice" you're disparaging is belied by the fact that Obama has more than a million donors. Tens of thousands of volunteers who walk precinct after precinct, who attend rallies in droves to support him. So I think most of us have "sacrificed" already, and we know there will be continued sacrifice once Obama takes the oath of office.

I'm sorry you can't come to terms with the fact that Hillary, who came out of the gate with every advantage any candidate has ever had....BLEW IT! Get over it!

[aquarius dawning]

112. Not really. He won a bunch of caucuses in red states thanks to disproportionate support from AAs

If he were white, he would have been out before John Edwards.

[cali]

120. if pigs flew......

and if Hillary had married a banker. Pointless speculation. And he's won as many primaries as she has and lots of them in blue states. Lies don't cut it. She's run a truly terrible campaign.

[Tarheel_Dem]

125. you know what they say about opinions and asses....right?

You, like Hillary, can indulge in revisionist history, but I choose to deal with the here & now. You should try it.

[Why Syzygy]

74. You are so right.

She's a prissy rich girl who has had every advantage, yet still finds it necessary to bully others. She never learned magnanimousness. She relies on Bill for that. Quite common in partnerships, before someone comes out with a sexist claim.

That behavior demonstrates that everything she got, she got either by advantage, given to her (WalMart), or bullied herself into (her marriage?).

Who does that sound like? The WORST pResident ever?

[donheld]

76. "She isn't likable enough."

She seems to make it worse with ever breath she takes.

[L0oniX]

92. K&R

[BlooInBloo]

94. She's not my favorite mostly because she lies. Thinking better of republicans than your own party...

... is also quite off-putting to me.

[Apollo11]

97. "Let's ignore the issues. Obama is a smooth-talkin' dude. Hillary is a cold-hearted b****."

This seems to be the point you are trying to make.

In which case, I say SHAME ON YOU! :P

[cali]

121. Not at all my point.

I actually have quite a bit of sympathy for her regarding this. I don't think it's her fault or that she's some terrible person, but that she's more of an introvert and hasn't been able to convey who she really is.

[PetraPooh]

98. There are actually two reasons:

One starts with an H
The other starts with a B
AND THEY BOTH MAKE ME ILL!

[quantass]

99. IT MOST CERTAINLY IS BECAUSE SHE ISNT LIKEABLE -- Look at those Unfavorability Polls!!

Everyone hates her....its not because she is a woman...for one, Hillary uses her womanhood as a way to try to get more votes and she is proud of it...i admire Obama for not using race in his campaigning and trying to put forth the idea of bettering america...If only Hillary would do the same instead of her mockery of the system

[SIMPLYB1980]

100. Great so we should elect someone because they are more likable.

Even if the other person would make a better president. Didn't Obama himself say that Clinton was "likable enough"? What happened the last time Americas picked our president based on likability. 8 years of G.W.B. (I wanna have a beer with him):puke:

[aquarius dawning]

101. we both know likability has little to do with it.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

115. GWB also smirks a lot. So does Hillary.

I don't want 8 years of another President who has a perpetual self-satisfied smirk on their face.

My argument makes as much sense as yours.

[SIMPLYB1980]

119. Obama has quite a smirk to. For those that can see past the halo.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

124. Smirk

smirk (smûrk)
intr.v. smirked, smirk·ing, smirks
To smile in an affected, often offensively self-satisfied manner.
n.
An affected, often offensively self-satisfied smile.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I don't see a smirk there. :shrug:

[cali]

122. I'm simply analyzing it- not justifying it.

people operate on a gut level more than we may like to admit.

[FlyingSquirrel]

102. Obama said she was likable enough. Did he lie????

lol I'm just messin' with ya

[dysfunctional press]

104. i was going to say because she hasn't gotten as many votes- but yours works too...

:hi:

[On the Road]

107. It's Why Gore and Kerry Lost, Too

and why Bush is president today. Not a great criterion. However, it also reflects on her chances in the general election.

[cbayer]

116. I've been trying to sort out (for myself) the role sexism plays in this campaign.

It's a tough one.

Your OP made me ask this question: What woman in a position of leadership in this country is seen by the populace as likable? I am having trouble coming up with one and wonder to what extent the combination and female/power impacts on the likability question.

[cali]

123. I think that's a very important

point.

[Texas Hill Country]

118. i find her wonderfully likable.

[roseBudd]

127. I agree I always take superficial characteristics into account when I analyze viability...

I know that the majority of the electorate uses a short hand method of deciding who to vote for.

Many will have read nothing in the news, watched no news, no debates primary or GE and yet they are still going to make a decision, pick a candidate and vote.

I knew all along Hillary had the ability to annoy. As a pragmatist who wanted to win, I alays hoped that Hillary would not get the nomination.

Then kitchen sink happened. Kitchen sink because she had to do it publicly (she couldn't just flyer cars in church parking lots) upped her annoying factor.

"Change you can xerox" was a bomb

"skys will open up" another

and 3AM? Opened her to ridicule.

The more she preaches at us in her stump speeches and laughes inappropriately when she doesn't feel like answering questions the more annoying she gets.

She just doesn't have it.

[Imagevision]

128. I agree totally, now I can't wait to stop seeing/hearing her on TV

[ronnykmarshall]

129. I clicked on this and all can say from this earth shattering event!!!!

OH MY GOD!!!!

[grantcart]

131. her bottom line is a flat line

[Frank Booth]

132. She's like nails on a chalkboard.

People have a visceral reaction to her. They see her and tense up and get angry.

I used to actually like her myself, but I've come to see why she gets under people's skin so much.


Why some felt that a candidate who started off with 50% of the country not just disliking her, but hating her, should be the nominee is beyond me.

[eridani]

133. I don't find her unlikeable at all

She's losing because she has been running a crappy campaign based on outdated delusions of "inevitability."