Someone asked me a few questions and why Hillary's "gates" dont bother me.

[Texas Hill Country]

I Didnt want it to get buried, so I decided to make a post of it.

The original question:

Are you honestly unaffected by
1) Hillary's Bosnia lie,
2) her campaign's current financial status
3) her having two important people on her campaign (her husband and Penn) being involved with the Columbian Trade deal

I am not trying to trap you or anything like that.
I sincerely would like to know how you personally, feel about these three things and why.

Thanks for "listening."


So here is my answer


1. There were many many parts of that story that were correct. There were more parts that were correct than the media chose to show on tape. The ONLY part that wasnt true was her actually being shot at.

a. they did land in a blackhawk
b. they did wear flak jackets
c. she did visit forward bases where the president didnt go for security concerns
d. there were snipers in the area and they were briefed on it
e. they did run out of the helicopter with their heads down (cause that is how you get out of a helo)
f. my wife has a done extensive scientific research and published papers on memory, and she tells me that the conflation is normal in stressful situations, especially with time.
g. I can tell you from my own experiences that in situations like that, everyone remembers events differently, and with immediate fear, dangers are perceptively higher. I have misremembered stories too.
h. I dont think she lied, i honestly think she misremembered. And even if she lied, I dont really care. It is a stupid thing to care about.

Barack has lied about many many things, but is not held to the same standard. No one cares about Selma or the Kennedy airlift... why? because they dont matter. it's dumb.


As far as the combat stuff goes, I care about 3 things; respect for the troops, the desire to get out of iraq, and the ability to be CINC. And when 30+ Generals and Admirals come out and say that she is the right person for the job... including Clark and a couple other 4 stars... I pay attention to that.


2. She is having a difficult time with campaign finance, that is true. I think that the articles about her "owing money" are a bit overblown. This stuff happens all the time, and has happened in every election since time immemorial.

Also, dont you even suspect a tiny bit that these entities are raising hell because of political reasons... i mean, seriously... a major university is going to the press about $5,000? REALLY? They spend that getting the lawns mowed each day.

The fact is that they are both raising record money. That is undeniable. He is raising more than she is, that is the case, but they are both BLOWING away all the records. I think what they are both doing is AMAZING as far as fundraising goes... they are beating McCain by 3 or 4 times in cash... that NEVER happens.

Finally, much of her problem had to do with her original campaign manager and the mismanagement of the funds then. That is not Hillary's fault. That was the fault of an over-confident idiot. The new one has been doing much better.


3. First, I dont see the Columbian trade deal as massively important... well, because it's not. It is a minor issue that has become a major issue because everyone, MSM included, wants to nail Hillary on something... anything. It is ridiculous.

The witch hunts these people have gone through are friggin amazing. I don't think there is a family in America that has been attacked and investigated as much as they have... but guess what? half the country still loves them. I don't think anyone else in the US could stand up to the kind of brutality they have. Period. That is the STRONGEST family I have ever seen. EVER. They, more than any other people in Washington, actually have to get up every day and literally FIGHT to accomplish their goals... goals with which I just happen to agree. That is why my loyalty will never waiver. I truly believe, there is not a stronger person and more fierce advocate than Hillary Clinton.

In addition, Bill and Mark are not the candidate. Hillary is. If she says she is against it, then she is against it. I know for a fact that there are people on Barack's campaign that have opinions that differ from his, but they are not Barack. Barack is Barack, just like Hillary is Hillary.

Also, there seems to be a double standard here. On one hand you have Barack and Wright. Barack comes out and says that he doesn't believe the same things, and you all say... "ok, cool." Then you go on fighting with everyone that questions the whole Wright thing, screaming that Wright is not the one running for office, Barack is.

Well, you can't make that argument, then turn around an hold Hillary to the exact opposite standard. It doesn't work that way.

but, then again, the questions about the Columbian free trade deal is not going to have rural Republicans coming in from the hinterlands, Wright just might and has more implications on the GE... regardless....



Anyway, so that is why these things don't bother me. And honestly, Barack doesnt bother me either. The reason I support Hillary is because I believe that as shady as the Clinton's may be, Barack is every bit as shady. You DO NOT get out of South Side Chicago politics being a golden boy. Sorry, just doesnt happen.

The difference is two fold:

1. Barack's resume is thin. He is a newcomer and that is going to be VERY hard to deal with vs someone like McCain. If half the Democratic party doesnt find him to be dry enough behind the ears, what makes anyone think that over half the country will?

2. The Clinton's shady has been raked over the friggin coals for 20 years now. It is getting pretty old. People will bitch and complain, but the time for ire and outrage is long past.

Barack, on the other hand, has his shady business ON TRIAL right now!!! And it has already implicated the Governor of the state, and pretty much everyone around Barack!!! That is a SERIOUS issue. What happens if we give the guy the nomination and someone throws him under the bus at the trial, which is a very distinct and not so remote possiblity... TOTALLY F'd! We are then GUARANTEED 4 to 8 years of McSame.


Anyway, that is why these things dont bother me and why i still support Hillary.

[cali]

1. I have nothing but pity

for people that can't make make a case for their candidate that isn't all about how awful the other one is. FAIL.

[Texas Hill Country]

2. I was responding to specific questions, and yeah, I know...

besides, all their policis are virtually identical, so really that is all that is left unfortunately.

[LisaM]

5. Pity for Obama fans?

Who can't do anything but bash Hillary? You've seen the light!

[Justyce]

27. Exactly. nt

[JoFerret]

47. Patronizing piffle and condescending codswallop

Obama has so many vulnerabilites behind the smoke screen its amazing.

I can still see why his supporters remain behind him but it not because of his perfection - THAT is for sure.

[LisaM]

3. Good for you!

I have tried and tried to post about conflated memory, only to run up against the wall with supporters of St. Obama (no one of course mentions that HIS OWN BOOKS play fast and loose with memory and are full of made up names and conflated events).

For example, he was recently talking about earning $100 per week, in high school, part time, at Baskin-Robbins.

Can this be true?

In 1979, minimum wage was $2.90. If he earned minimum wage (likely for a part-time job at Baskin-Robbins, or at least close) that means he was working 34 hours per week to have that much gross pay (he said that was his gross pay, before the payroll taxes).

When I worked THREE part time jobs during roughly the same time, I only worked a total of about 15 hours per week, and did not gross $100 per week.

My point is that he probably did not earn that much for his high school job. He could easily have looked this up. 34 hours per week is close to a full time job. Is he saying he worked full time during high school? He probably didn't, and he's probably not remembering exactly how much he earned per week, but his ultimate point was about payroll taxes.

[Texas Hill Country]

4. exactly, thank you!

[Tyrone Slothrop]

24. How do you have any clue how much money he was making?

Or how many hours per week he was working? (I know lots of kids who worked 30+ hours per week in high school.)

You don't.

It's base speculation about something you know NOTHING about.

[1776Forever]

34. So true - we are talking Hawaii - anyone know what it cost there compared to PA for instance?

I had a nephew living there in the late 70's and even then he said prices were outrageous! I don't know why but they always have been!

You people making accusations are so out of touch with reality and whether it was $100 or $90 isn't a big deal to me. I am not sure how much I made back then either. I would have to guess!

[SeaLyons]

41. Texas, I'm so proud to be a Hillary supporter

and it is posts like yours that convey to all the genuine concern and intelligence that Hillary supporters are made of.

That was a great post....so true in every way.

Thank you.

Go Hillary!!!

:kick: :kick: :kick:

and here's a :hug: for you.

[redqueen]

6. I disagree on most of this, but this part especially jumped out at me...

"First, I dont see the Columbian trade deal as massively important... well, because it's not. It is a minor issue that has become a major issue because everyone, MSM included, wants to nail Hillary on something... anything. It is ridiculous."

No, it's a major issue because trade deals are something the public is very concerned with (at least moreso than when Hillary and Bill were pushing for NAFTA's passage).

It's a VERY big deal... you can disagree all you like... but recognize that that is only your opinion.

[LisaM]

7. Hillary spoke on Bill's behalf on NAFTA, but she has stated quite clearly

that her views on it were/are different from his. Moreover, she has also stated that the way NAFTA was presented to her and how it's played out are two different things.

[redqueen]

9. And I'm supposed to just take her word for it?

Why would she keep her alleged opposition so secret? If she's holding meetings airing her doubts, why is that hidden?

Regarding her inability to see what a disaster it was going to be... I wouldn't be advertising that fact if I were her.

[Texas Hill Country]

10. You take Barack's word on so much...

[redqueen]

15. You're no psychic.

:hi:

[Texas Hill Country]

29. how do you know?

:rofl:

[LisaM]

14. Well you are taking Obama's word on the issue

Since he hasn't been tested on it, either. And, I don't know if you watch Canadian news, and the story vanished, but someone in his campaign definitely had contact with someone in the Canadian government regarding NAFTA (interestingly, in the Canadian story, they needed to point out that NAFATA was deeply unpopular in Ohio).

[redqueen]

16. Which issue?

There are many issues... and while both candidates have things which give me pause, she's got more.

:shrug:

[LisaM]

17. Trade.

He has not been tested on trade, and I don't really think he will end NAFTA.

[redqueen]

21. Well duh of course he wouldn't end it.

Neither of them would.

And while he hasn't been tested, IMO she's already failed the test... so... :shrug:

[Texas Hill Country]

13. trade issues in a larger sense sure, but this is a minor part of some of the bigger issues

besides, like I said... Obama's people have double standards when complaining about this.


did you that part jump out at you?

[redqueen]

20. Whether it's minor or not is an opinion.

What jumps out at me is her constant squirming around the truth.

People here are trying to make the Canada story seem bigger than it is... when it's iffy to begin with and didn't even involve the candidate directly...

Hillary was giving closed-door speeches about NAFTA, and attendees have said she wasn't there to poo-pooh the idea. Of the two candidates... IMO Hillary has done more distorting. Obviously you disagree. That's pretty much all there is to it.

[Texas Hill Country]

26. you have every right to your opinion. i was merely stating mine. thank you for telling me yours.

[goldcanyonaz]

8. Texas, unfortunately this will fall on deaf ears, but it's a great OP.

:loveya:

[newmajority]

11. Hillary's new campaign theme song

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTXFycLHM1I

[Armstead]

12. A response

1)Her Bosnia stuff DOES matter because it was not merely a one-time slip up. If she had misstated it once maybe it would be okay. But she repeated it several times, so it was obviously part of her basic stump speech message.

Getting shot at is not something you are vague about. You remember.

What the big deal is ultimately is that it is typical of why so many do not like her. because we can never trust her. She never says "yes" or "no." It's always a convoluted dance with the truth. It doesn't just apply to silly incidents -- But it's the same thing about POLICY.

Which also relates to your point number 3 -- Columbia.

Her disdain for the truth is why I don't trust her on this issue. I frankly don't believe a word she says that she is not influenced by her husband and campaign headsa support for something she supposedly opposes. She will fudge and ditehr when it comes to such things.

As for Point 2 regarding raising money. I don;t care.

[Texas Hill Country]

22. here are answers to your response...

1. Bosnia

a. out of curiousity, how do you know? have you ever been to a combat zone? have you ever been shot at? not being snarky, just asking. If the answer is yes, are you 10000000% positive that you remember the event 1000000% accurately. I can guarantee with a 99.9999999999% certainty that you don't.

b. were you aware that in the legal field, the PROVEN least reliable evidence is eye witness testimony. reason? conflation.

c. i have my wife, and several other cognitive scientists telling me that it is a common occurrence and it is entirely likely that she did remember it that way.

d. the press showed only part of the footage from her arrival. the other footage is MUCH closer to her story.



2. Thank you for not caring about a non-issue. I appreciate and respect that. :)



3. Disdain for the truth? You mean like Selma? oh, wait, no, like the Kennedy Airlift? wait, ummm, like voting present on women's and gay issues? or or or or or or...

DOUBLE STANDARD.

[Bigleaf]

18. BULLSHIT! They did not run from the helicopter with their heads down. Here's the video.

Stop the fucking nonsense. She fucking blatantly lied.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8BfNqhV5hg4

[Texas Hill Country]

23. i have seen the vid before... is this the one with the blackhawk? or the was with the C117A

[ProSense]

39. Where is the one showing her ducking sniper fire? n/t

[cliffordu]

19. She wasn't wearing a flak jacket.

and she's without a helmet. Wear one, wear the other. Neither were any of the other civilians on the trip.


There is no end to the kool-aid in the hillary camp.

[durrrty libby]

25. Very well said K & R

:toast:

[Justyce]

28. Great post! K&R. nt

[saracat]

30. What a great post. You have addressed the issues in a non inflammatory way

Thank you for inserting reason and logic into this Forum!

[Texas Hill Country]

37. thanks for the props. its nice to hear after getting beat down in here

:)

[SIMPLYB1980]

31. K&R!

[Raffi Ella]

32. THANK YOU for spelling it all out like this.

:patriot:

I often wonder how Obama supporter's find the energy to blow up stories into HUGE scandals...then I remember that the MSM makes a HUGE scandal out of ANY thing Hillary does. And that Barack isn't as qualified or experienced and shouldn't have run at this time and I personally believe a LOT of his supporter's know this and SO take every opportunity to bash Hillary and make her look bad, to build HIM up.

I couldn't care less about Baracks 'lies' - and there are many - but is angers me to no end to see EVERY tiny little thing Hillary does being blown up like this and then to see you all acting as though Barack is a Saint!

Obama's 'lies' about Selma and the Kennedy connection could be blown into HUGE stories by the media, IF they wanted to do that.

They probably will blow them up if he wins the nom - The MSM will turn their guns on The Democratic Party once the general starts - It will be wall to wall McCain the POW Hero and Barack's "God Damn AMerica" will be played on a loop 24/7 right up until November.

My criticism of him is on real issues that will keep US from winning the White House back, not his lying in order to make his life story appear all the more astounding; It's remarkable on its own; just as Hillary's trip to Bosnia is.

[Saturday]

33. Well said, recommended. nt

[1776Forever]

35. With the history that the Clinton's have compared to Obama it isn't even close!

If you can honestly say the things that they have done in the past don't bother you then you are very naive. Read this post and then ask yourself if you can say that without a doubt! This is not me speaking about it but facts reported and able to be traced!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=5457592&mesg_id=5457799

[Texas Hill Country]

38. the man is barely vetted. you cannot say that.

and yes, i am fully aware of all their percieved shadiness... and guess what? i am ok with it.

[Auntie Bush]

36. I love you Texas Hill!

Spoken like it came from my mouth and brain...but not my typing or writing.

I just wish so many Obie supporters didn't have you on ignore and could see
how we feel and think and make intelligent decisions in spite of the propaganda pushed in our faces by the MSM and all the others.
Obie supporters thought processes are hampered by that K-A which goes directly to the brain. If you someone that will fight for Dem causes...
vote for HILLARY!

[ProSense]

40. Here:

proof that denial and spin is a way to excuse away every lie.

[SIMPLYB1980]

42. You should look in the mirror.

Your denial and spins on DU have been Legendary.

[ProSense]

43. Was Hillary's sniper story true? Maybe you should stop suggesting mirrors and learn to accept that

Hillary lies.

[Texas Hill Country]

44. snarky much?

just keep on chirping about the same thing I just spent 4 paragraphs explaining why

a. I dont care

b. It doesnt matter

c. Barack has told his own "stories"

[ProSense]

46. I know you don't care, but where is the video showing her ducking sniper fire? n/t

[SIMPLYB1980]

45. Not as much as you or Obama.

:P

[Willo]

48. Good evening Texas Hill. Thanks for taking the time to answer me.

Just so you know, I haven't read the responses in this thread yet.

After reading your OP here, I had to remember why I picked you (from among the Hillary supporter posts) to try to have a dialog with.
You had posted a speech Hillary had given. It was positive...nothing to criticize. There were a lot of negatives posted the other day and it seemed to me, that you really wanted to show or even prove, Hillary's good side, her worthiness.

What struck me though, was how little I cared, to even bother, listening to the speech. My thought was, "Why would you think we would care anything about that now?" I'd like to try and understand why some of you so fiercely support her. It boggles my mind. Thus, my questions.

I'm not going to try to sell you on Obama and I'm sure you know you won't be able to sell me on Hillary. :) I simply want to try to understand you as a Hillary Supporter. So we can feel comfortable discussing this, knowing we don't agree. Okay by you?

I listed those three things because, in addition to being the current "Hillary problems", I feel those issues would seriously make me consider who I was supporting and why. Looking at them individually I might still stand by her, but I certainly couldn't do so without also admitting she was seriously flawed.

Bosnia lie: I hate lies for so many reasons. One thing about lies is they usually contain truth. Actually, the best told lie contains the most truth. That's the deceptive and dangerous charm. But, not that I'm saying this was a good lie.
The problem with the Bosnia lie was not the many parts that were true but the few parts that weren't. Those parts created a story of danger - ducking from being shot at. The truth was far the opposite - smiling and waving. I don't disagree that stress could impair the memory. But, there was no stress here. This you know for a fact.

So, that puts you in the position of supporting her despite the lie or to make excuses for her. You opted for her misremembering.
Fine. I understand. The problem, though, is twofold:

1) She told it at least four times publically. Once, with a little chuckle, that really did add to the reality of the story. So since she repeated the same lie consistently each time, it is safe to say she actually, remembered it, vividly in this way.

This leads to the second problem:

2) Her story was given to support her own designed, threshold for the Commander in Chief position. She is saying, “I would make a good CIC because of how I handled the Bosnia situation.” That leaves the door open to say as CIC she could conceivably forget or has already forgotten, how other situations (foreign and local), actually occurred. This could include meetings -– public and private, group or one-on-ones -- where negotiations, promises, threats, peace and danger are discussed.

The door is also open to question her ability to recall; to question whether it was isolated or triggered and; whether it has become further impaired by time or lack of treatment. In short, to say she misremembered this event in this way, is to say she may also be losing her mind. Can you see, this is not me accusing Hillary any further? This is me working with the facts, within the parameters you gave me.

To opt for misremembering, then puts you in the harder position of supporting something far worse about her or admitting it was a complete lie made to pad her experience.

But you do come around, somewhat when you said

And even if she lied, I dont really care. It is a stupid thing to care about.

On her finances: In and of itself not a big deal, but it can be another small weight on the scale against her.
I definitely agree it is being blown up, maybe even out of proportion, but not for political reasons. It's like when someone brags overmuch, you find yourself looking for and exploiting their weaknesses. Looking for the dirt near a neat freak, a hair out of place on the model, etc. However, to not pay these people (especially the Moms & Pops) in a reasonable amount of time does not and will not look good. Especially compared with the money paid out to staff and consultants.


Colombian ties:

First, I dont see the Columbian trade deal as massively important... well, because it's not. It is a minor issue that has become a major issue because everyone, MSM included, wants to nail Hillary on something... anything. It is ridiculous.

From what I'm understanding...this is a really big deal. Quite a big conflict of interest at the least. But, I'm going to reserve speaking on it further for now because I want to be sure of all the factual reasons why it is (or isn't). Let's research it in the meantime.

Anyway, so that is why these things don't bother me. And honestly, Barack doesnt bother me either. The reason I support Hillary is because I believe that as shady as the Clinton's may be, Barack is every bit as shady. You DO NOT get out of South Side Chicago politics being a golden boy. Sorry, just doesnt happen.

2. The Clinton's shady has been raked over the friggin coals for 20 years now. It is getting pretty old. People will bitch and complain, but the time for ire and outrage is long past.

This I understand. It's in my opinion, the picking the best of the worst. The reason I dislike politics and politicians. I have intentionally left Barack out of the conversation for now. Which for this very point I would love to use. :)

But I disagree with you that the time for ire and outrage is long past. One, it sounds like the Clinton shady is old and new, or just long and continuous; Two, because an election is just for that purpose, to make a choice. And three, if the option is in picking the least shadiest, why would I not have the right to be outraged? If my options are slim, are you saying I should accept the doom and gloom because it was an expected outcome?

This is helpful to me because I don't want to have a problem with Hillary's supporters without good reason.
I can't respect Hillary. I guess I also like her less because she isn't living up to the loyalty and defense she has in her supporters. But my feelings for her as a candidate should be separate from my thoughts of her supporters.

I've booked mark this thread. I'll answer questions about Barack if you have any. I left Barack out because I wanted to stick to the point, you and your support of Hillary without comparisons.

Looking forward to continuing.