Hillary and Obama on taxes

[Ilithiad]

Where does both of them stand on taxes? I do not agree that there should be a mortgage bailout because of the subprime mortgage mess. If you make bad financial decisions it is your own fault and not the tax payer's responsibility to get you out of your own mess. However both candidates should outline a process to punish those companies that mislead people in to bad financial decisions in the subprime mortgages. Both candidates should end all tax breaks for corporations unless they are creating jobs here in America for Americans...further the ideas of America and protects American interest in the future. Both candidates should get rid of the IRS and institute a fair tax fixed at 18-22% for any income level with no tax refund. With this idea national health care and other new and innovative social ideas of Hillary's and Obama's could be paid for.

[phrigndumass]

1. You mean, kinda like Mike Huckabee's 23% flat tax idea?

:shrug:

[Ilithiad]

5. Yes...

I actually liked Mike huckabee but since I am a democrat I could not vote for him and yes his flat tax idea is a good idea...So what if it lowers taxes on the rich...Do they deserve to pay a higher tax rate just because the middle class resents them for being rich? Its absurd. If I am successful in my life to make lots of money I should be able to keep most of it.

[Alter Ego]

2. They're both evil tax-and-spend liberals.

...What? What are you all staring at?

[hfojvt]

3. sounds like you need to read up on the UnFairTax

Here you go

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/hfojvt/55

It's a stupid Republican idea designed to save lots of money for rich people.

[Ilithiad]

6. No that is not...

...what I am getting at....My idea is there is a flat tax rate for all income levels with no refund...which means all deductions are eliminated...also there should be no tax credits for donations to charity...donate because you wish to give not save money on your taxes. Tax deductions for your car because you need it to get to work? ridiculous! If you wish to own a car and drive to work that is your own financial responsibility and there should be no tax deductions for it. Flat tax no refund...Cuting taxes on the rich...you are not getting the core of my idea....Why should a millionair or billionair pay a higher tax bracket? If they are sucessful enough to make that kind of money then they should be able to keep most of it...and not be punishes because they are rich...only the envious middle class and lower class resents the rich and wishes them to be taxed higher and it just isn't fair for a successful career/life.

[hfojvt]

8. you mean a flat tax instead of an UnFairTax?

You need to get your terms right, although the result is the same

Here's my journal entry #69

Pulling your hair out over taxes?
Posted by hfojvt in General Discussion
Fri Jan 04th 2008, 03:01 PM
Try our flat tax calculator to see how much money rich people could save with a flat tax.

1998 figures from 2001 SAUS numbers in billions of dollars

number of ^^ AGI ^^^ AGI total ^^^ Income tax ^^ 17% flat tax ^^ savings
filers
172,000 ** >$1,000,000 * 533.5 **** 146.8 **** 90.7 *** 56.1!!!!
207,000 ** >$500,000 ** 207.6 **** 58.5 **** 35.3 *** 23.2
1,606,000 * >$200,000 ** 463.6 **** 111.5 **** 78.8 *** 32.7
total ------------------------------------------------ $112,000,000,000


So if taxes are frustrating you, just be thankful that we do not have a flat tax that would force you to pay a share of $112 billion more.

See how much rich people save with a flat tax? Well, if it is revenue neutral, then all of us poor and middle class will have to make up that $112 billion. If THEY save $112 billion, then WE have to pay that much more.

[rinsd]

4. Unfortunately a flatter tax is a regressive tax because of its greater impact upon the poor.

And tax refunds are based on whether the government collected more than what you owe in taxes.

Its tax evasion that is the issue.

[Ilithiad]

7. Tax refunds....

with a flat tax rate with no refund all the complicated math and the IRS would be irrelvant. Plus eliminating the IRS would save money for the budget. True it would put a lot of people out of a job but there is always the private sector.

[rinsd]

9. Again, the flat tax is regressive and private tax collection is a bad idea.

[Ilithiad]

11. Is it progressive...

...for the rich to pay a higher percentage of taxes because of their tax bracket? My idea is neither progressive or regressive it is financially neutral.

[rinsd]

13. Yes it is more progressive.

The rich have their wealth created in part and protected by the government and its institutions they should pay more especially since as you so eloquently put charity seems limited to a tax deduction. We cannot count on the philanthropy of the wealthiest among us to provide for the least well off among us so that role has fallen to the government.

The rich also benefit from this as the taxes they pay help ensure a healthy work force(everything from direct healthcare to disease research to food safety) and market (education leading to occupation whcih leads to income).

When you make the tax flat, the rate must be raised(you quoted 18 to 22%, the working class pays15% or less right now) to accomodate loss from lower the rates for the more well to do. When coupled with the greater impact taxes have on the poor versus the rich (if I make $20,000 and get taxed at 20%, after taxes I am left with only $16K, if I make 100,000 and ( pay 20% in taxes, I still have $80K left over). See even in a progressive tax system the rich do not feel the pinch nearly as much as the poor do.

[Ilithiad]

19. Okay I see your point....

...here is another idea....no tax liability for those who fall in a certain income range say 0.00-30,000/year 40,000-Billions/year pay only 18%. No refund. No deductions period. No tax loop holes. Couple this flat tax rate with universal health care for everyone the no refund idea would pay for such social progams

[rinsd]

21. The elimination of the IRS is a non starter.

One of the specific duties of the government is the collection of taxes and that should remain a government entity.

And again the no refund makes no sense and assumes perfection of the tax collection and zero change to tax law.

For instance, I sign a w-2, I have taxes taken out, I take no deductions beyond being my own dependent as I stated on my w-2, I still get a sizable refund.

[Ilithiad]

22. Thre should be no....

...tax refunds. As long as there are tax refunds the government will always be underfunded to pay for socialized health care and other needed social programs.

[rinsd]

23. Government underfunding is not caused by tax refunds but failure to pay taxes in the 1st place

Its not people who are having their wages garnished every paycheck, its people who have pay taxes come 4/15 hiding income.

[hfojvt]

10. I do agree with you on the write-offs

Most of the deductions are found on Schedule A of the 1040, and most of those deductions are taken by wealthier people. Thus I made this proposal, but if you read the comments you will see that it was not well received on DU

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/hfojvt/25

[Ilithiad]

12. Entertain the idea...

Lets say your a millionaire who pays 20% in takes which is 200,000 and I am in the middle class making 50,000 a year so I pay 10,000 a year. It looks like you are paying more taxes than I am does it not.....?

[rinsd]

14. But who feels the impact of the taxes more, the guy left with $40K or the guy left with $800K?

[Ilithiad]

16. The answer...

...is obvoius but that is not the point. Explain to me why the rich should pay a high tax bracket than a middle class person?

[rinsd]

18. Because the rich's benefit from a well funded government is greater that the middle class.

Let me ask you is police protection better in wealthy areas as opposed to poor ones?

Are laws protecting wealth more likely to be invoked by the rich or the poor?

[hfojvt]

15. then look at the change from the current system

A family of four making $50,000 a year currently pays a mere $1900 in taxes. So under your system they face an $8100 tax increase. The millionaire, depending on his deductions and his sources of income currently pays

(wait I have to look it up from my earlier post)

okay, I am back. From post #8 taxpayers making between $500,000 and $1,000,000 pay at a 28% rate on their AGI, and this is even after itemized deductions, but not after "adjustments" that are part of Adjusted Gross Income.

Thus, under your plan, their taxes go from $281,000 to $200,000, a tax cut of $81,000 for millionaires.

As for your assertion that the rich person is "paying more" that is simply false. Who is paying "more rent" the guy with one apartment that he pays $350 a month on, or the guy with 6 apartments who pays $2100 a month?

The answer is that they are both paying the same - RELATIVE to the space they get.

Under progressive taxation, the person with more is gonna get taxed more, and it seems unfair. So they guy with six apartments is gonna pay $4,000 a month instead of just $2100. He might think that sucks since he is paying $666 for the same apartment that the other guy gets for $350, but from a social perspective, we in the masses would say that it is unfair for that rich guy to take all the apartments. Thus a progressive rent structure discourages that.

[Ilithiad]

17. Deductions.

..there would be no deductions under my system of fair tax. As far as paying only 1900...they pay that little amount through deductions any person should not be entitled to. Interest deductions...automobile deductions cause you use your car to get to work...eliminate deductions period.

[rinsd]

20. You cannot deduct car travel to & from work.

You can deduct car travel if it is used for business for instance when I was in sales and had to travel around the county for various meetings.

[hfojvt]

24. no, that $1900 comes from STANDARD deductions

and personal exemptions. The kind that everybody gets, and also the tax credit for children. What those do is reduce taxes for people who are already making barely enough to live on, and they apply mostly equally to everybody.