Why would Kerry consider McCain when he can choose Clark?

[PlanetBev]

According to polls, McCain would add a 14 point advantage to the ticket. I suspect that Wesley Clark could do the same, so why go anywhere else?

[Stew225]

1. With all due respect, I would suggest that

"according to the polls" might be a tad more scientifically based than merely your suspicion. I've not seen any other poll than corroborated your suspicion.

[PlanetBev]

7. It is not my suspicion

I heard it on CNN today. It might be bullshit, but it not something I made up.

[PROGRESSIVE1]

2. I agree!!!! McCain can drop dead for all I care!

He is a partisan hack!!!!

Kerry/Clark 04'

:kick:

[WilliamPitt]

3. Again

(and again and again and again...)

McCain draws the attention of independent voters. The base of both parties are pretty much locked in. Dems will vote Kerry overwhelmingly, Repubs will vote Bush overwhelmingly. The middle - the independent voter - is where the game is, and that intependent voters have massive admiration for McCain.

McCain was never going to take this offer, and so Kery was safe in making it. 100% upside. Millions of independent voters just sat up and paid closer attention to Kerry.

[ibegurpard]

5. wrong

millions of independent voters just sat up and paid closer attention to McCain. Sets him up quite nicely, doesn't it? Meanwhile, the Kerry campaign looks like losers who can't trust to find good people in their own party. That's not my opinion...that's the spin in the articles we're reading.
Great strategy... setting us up for this kind of bullshit.

[RafterMan]

13. I'm not so sure about that

I've thought it might be the Kerry people telegraphing, "We love indies" to independents and Republicans looking to bail.

[emulatorloo]

15. Independent voters pride themselves for their "Independent Thinking"

so I don't care if Faux etc spins it negatively, Kerry will look good to Indy Voters because they will dismiss the spin. . . . .

[ibegurpard]

17. What America do you live in?

They will DISMISS THE SPIN???
Al Gore invented the internet, George Bush is a strong, resolute man of action, Iraq was involved in 9/11, Howard Dean screams too loud...fill in the blank ad nauseum.

[Scoopie]

22. Just so you know

I never much liked Dean, but I will be the first to admit that the media did a number on him, too.
For different reasons than Clark, however.
The media wanted to over-expose Dean so that it would draw out the worst part of his nature (his temper) and/or overblow his exhuberant personality. He is human, aferall, and we ALL have flaws, but ours aren't being broadcast 24/7.
I haven't looked at the reasons why they did to Dean what they did, but my gut reaction was that he, like Clark, came from a grassroots base and, oh, no! We can't have a presidential candidate who came from ANYTHING but the guidelines set forth by the politicians, big business and the corporate media military industrial complex machine.
Just my thoughts.
For what it's worth, I like Dean better now than I did when he was running. I hope that he takes Terry "McAwful's" place as DNC chair. Dean would be most excellent in raising cash, drawing in new voters and espousing the Democratic Party's platform.
If Clark gets to be VP and Dean gets to be DNC chair, I may, as a lifetime Independent, finally join the Democratic Party because, if those two events occur, then I'll know the Dem Party finally "gets it."

Edited to add: It wasn't so much that I didn't like Dean, it's that I didn't think he could beat Bush because he didn't have any of the things I think will be needed, namely, foreign policy and/or military experience and a root in the South or the Heartland. Kerry doesn't have a Heartland or Southern root, but he does have FP and military experience.

[ibegurpard]

26. It's not about Dean

It's about chasing after people who are totally susceptible to the negative spin at the expense of people who are DYING to have a reason to put their faith in you.

[Donna Zen]

28. Ditto

That is exactly what the headlines read: McCain rejects Kerry offer

The is a further caveat to the base: you will have no say in this and don't expect to be represented.

I just did three hours of volunteer work for the Dems with ACT, so my creds. are in order. If Kerry thinks this is okay, that is supporting someone who was in favor of the invasion of Iraq and champions bush, well...how much longer can I push myself to do this?

[IronLionZion]

41. I'm an Independent voter

and I admire Kerry more for trying to reach across the divide. I don't think he looks like a loser, it makes shrub look like a loser.

[PlanetBev]

11. Good Point, Will

I never thought of that. Kerry just got himself a little more press time.

[bicentennial_baby]

20. Doesn't work on this Independent

:puke:

[WilliamPitt]

27. Well, good thing there are millions of others

[Forkboy]

49. or this one

or any of the others I know.

The spin has been nothing but negative for Kerry on this on every damn news show I see.

Good move :eyes:

[bahrbearian]

4. Because he'd have to explain his vote on the IWR

how he was mislead, by Chimpy of all people.

[Scoopie]

9. Huh?

Clark didn't vote on the measure. He testified against going to war (no matter how Drudge spins it, the fact is that Clark was the rebuttal witness to pro-Iraqi-war neo-con Richard Perle). However, Clark wasn't in Congress to make a decision.
And, he's learned from his run in the primaries that the corporate media doesn't "do" nuanced very well, so he's adjusted his answer into a more black or white statement.

[bahrbearian]

25. Because the press would always be asking Clark

how he was voicing desent on the War, and how could he run with a man who voted for the IWR and never voiced desent during the build up to War.

[RafterMan]

30. Kerry did issue a few warnings about how he wanted his vote used

Yeah, it wasn't lighting himself on fire, but it gives me enough room to vote for him.

I bet Clark could fit in there somewhere, too.

[Scoopie]

6. I'm gonna go out on a limb here

and make a statement.

We have seen the hack media's love affair with McCain, Edwards and, now, Gen. Zinni - two Republicans and a, in my opinion, less than qualified Democrat. We have seen stories upon stories upon stories of the "short list" that never included Clark until recently, when he was on television and at Democratic events stumping for Kerry so much the hack media could no longer avoid mentioning him.
I think there is something going on in the political air that is pointing so heavily toward Clark that is scaring the corporate whore media, so they're doing everything in their power to dismiss him.
I'll quote from my political "bible:"
When the prisoner abuse scandal broke, again and again it was Clark - not Cleland - who Kerry and the Democrats turned to. Clark delivered the Democrats' Saturday radio address, with the prisoner abuse scandal as the central topic. The next day, Clark was tagged to appear on NBC's Face The Nation to tackle the topic. And just a few days later, Clark and Kerry stood arm in arm in the battleground state of Arkansas, with Clark again playing the heavy in taking the Bush administration to task over the prisoner abuse scandal.

Clark, more than anyone else, represents the American military at its best, and is a man who has shown he knows how to plan things - and execute them - correctly. With Clark as VP, the Kerry ticket will be able to directly contrast the right way and the wrong way to deal with horrible dictators: the successful, effective way Clark dealt with Serbian butcher Slobodan Milosevic vs. the mess President Bush has created with his unilateral approach to dealing with Saddam Hussein.

In addition to this, Clark is a southerner who hails from a winnable battleground state - former President Clinton's home of Arkansas - and who formerly leaned Republican, having voted for Reagan and Bush, Sr in previous elections. While the media is gushing over how a Kerry/McCain ticket could unify the country and would be the Democratic "Dream Team," a Kerry/Clark ticket would bring the upside for the candidate without the downside, bringing in someone who has voted on both sides of the aisle but doesn't bring the anti-abortion and hard core conservative streak McCain does on certain issues. And Clark's military experience is far more relevant to the current situation than McCain's.
http://moderateindependent.com/v2i4poll.htm

This is why they're doing these stories: to make Clark seem like second, third or fourth choice.
And, why, you ask, would the media be scared of Clark? Well, not all of them are. Local newspaper reporters fell in love with the man. Reporters who still feel a sense of independence from the subjects in which they cover respect him; however, in this day and age of corporately-owned media and journalists becoming the story instead of reporting on it, they feel that Clark is a threat. He had the fewest corporate donations of any of the serious Democratic contenders, making most of his money from private, individual donations and, as a career military leader, many journalists and their bosses are afraid that he knows the REAL skinny on the Military Industrial Complex, from which they ALSO make money - lots and lots of money - and that he will work like hell to change it.
It's simply protecting their way of life.

[LandOLincoln]

8. Great post, Scoop.

:kick:

[Scoopie]

14. Thanks, but, as a former

journalist, myself, I know how "unliberal" the corporations that own most of the major news media are.
Most of your "liberal" reporters work for small to medium-sized community newspaper because they are the young and idealistic sorts who have just graduated from J-School.
By the time they've earned enough gravitas to work for the major media - whether in newspapers, radio or television - they've become jaded, more conservative and more invested in the process of "getting the story FIRST" rather than getting it right.
They also know from where they make the mega-bucks: the companies that own their medium. And those companies, by and large, are conservative to the point of overlooking a clearly inept dolt like Bush because he has a "R" after his name.
Luckily, I had a child, which caused me to ultimately change professions (can't go out chasing after stories at 2 a.m. when there's a little one trying to sleep next to you!) before I got to this point and, obviously, I've retained my "independence." :)

[TLDHOME99]

19. Thanks for the great post, Scoopie

I think it was almost a good thing for the media to report that Kerry was interested in McCain as VP, because it makes Kerry look like he is sick of partisan politics. And it underscored the belief that even Republicans are disgusted with Bush. I don't know whether that story (that Kerry wanted McCain for VP) was true or not -- but it was interesting.

And I think you are right, Clark is the better alternative, since he is not conservative. And they did turn to him first after the Abu Ghraib scandal broke. Makes sense.

I hope Clark gets to be VP. But I think whether he does or not, he is going to keep fighting Bush whatever way he can.

[RafterMan]

10. McCain is famous, well-liked and trusted

Clark is less well-known, controversial, and accused of starting WW III, sprouting Hatian man-boobs and brewing some ghastly evil involving the Homestead Act.

Despite the fact that he'd make an outstanding VP once in office, he's not going to add 14 points to anything.

[Skwmom]

18. I guess that's why the corporate media

has done everything they can to get rid of Clark since day one. Clark is a golden opportunity for the Democratic party. The big question is whether they will be smart enough to realize that.

"It is not until one reads Holbrooke's book, To End a War, that one finds out that after the APC went off the road, Clark grabbed a rope, anchored it to a tree stump, and rappelled down the mountainside after it, despite the gunfire that the explosion of the APC set off, despite the warnings that the mountainside was heavily mined, despite the rain and the mud, and despite Holbrooke yelling that he couldn't go. It is not until one brings the incident up to the general that one finds out that the burning APC had turned into a kiln, and that Clark stayed with it and aided in the extraction of the bodies; it is not until one meets Wesley Clark that one understands the degree to which he held Milosevic accountable."

[Skwmom]

12. I know many independent and Republican

Clark supporters who support McCain. I am an independent myself and supported McCain until he became a Bush enabler.

[emulatorloo]

16. McCain was NEVER going to be the VP - but the rumor was a good thing!

a rumor saying Kerry was 'considering' mccain has the following positive effects:

1. makes Karl Rove krazy and makes GWB cry
2. makes independent voters take another look at Kerry
3. makes repugs who are sick of bush think "maybe Kerry is the Uniter, not a Divider"

And all of it is for FREE, because McCain was never gonna be the VP.

(Like you I am hoping for Clark, and it can still happen!)

[annabanana]

21. the problem with the rumor surfacing again..

Is that those who don't read beyond the headlines might think that he's been offered it again... Which reflects pretty badly on the Dem Party. Short of the two of them staging a fistfight on the White House lawn, I'm afraid fwe'll be hearing this nonsense until he DOES make the pick.

[LandOLincoln]

24. Of course it reflects badly on the Dem Party--which is why

there's no chance in hell this new rumor came from the Dems, I don't care how often the press claims a Dem as the source.

Like I keep saying--Rove's clammy fat handprints all over it.

[Bombtrack]

23. Because Clark isn't one of the most popular politicians in the US

McCain just might be the most popular politician in America, particularly among the people who will decide the election, independants and moderates.

Clark is about as well known as my uncle steve comparatively.

But it's retarded to continuously complain about it when McCain is never going to be picked or agree to be picked. Just drop it. Oh, and you're assumption about Clark giving Kerry a 14 point advantage is FREAKING ABSURD. Come on man, think objectively. I supported Clark for president during the primaries but he is not a freaking A-list political property and frankly he doesn't real bring anything to Kerry that Kerry needs the most and what he would bring most as a vp to a hypothetical nominee, Kerry needs least.

[liberalron]

29. Why are we still talking about this?

From yesterday's Washington Post:
"It is unclear how seriously Kerry has considered a unity ticket. Aides described Kerry as intrigued but not committed to the idea, even if McCain were seriously interested, which he has made clear he is not."
There ARE a many Democrats who can fill the bill; WHY go out of the party.

Now, I WOULD like to see McCain run, but against George W.

[Donna Zen]

31. What is the profit to gain the world, but lose your soul?

John McCain is a good and honorable person.

So why if I think that John McCain is good and honorable does this make me so angry?

One of the issues that will not go away before November, and possibly will haunt our country for many years is one of the worst foreign policy decisions this country has ever made, invading Iraq. With his IRW vote McCain meant to do more than provide leverage for the UN, he was in favor of the invasion. Maybe Kerry sees it that way as well, but if I am to continue working for his election, I certainly hope not.

An unnecessary war at the wrong time: If the threat to this country is from terrorists, then invading an Arab country that was well contained was not the way to go about eliminating that threat. Therefore, John McCain’s judgment proved to be not only bad and hawkish, but dangerous and damaging to both or economic and physical security. So, one might conclude that his Foreign Policy expertise is suspect at best.

Why not McCain:

• Courting McCain has damaged the influence and stature of any nominee that Kerry will name other McCain. That damage is now done leaving the residual: “Well, they couldn’t get McCain.”

• McCain does not vote for Democrats; would not have put a Democrat on his ticket; and does not agree with or represent a Democratic platform.

• McCain is not a moderate republican. While some of his ideas may appeal to both sides of the aisle, his core beliefs are much further to the right than an Olympia Snowe.

• One of the largest voting blocks in the Democratic party are women; this is a block of voters that McCain does not represent on many issues.

• McCain is a huge believer in NAFTA, privatization, etc. If Kerry is that comfortable with McCains politics, then who am I working for and who will represent my interests?

• McCain on the ticket unifies nothing except the republican base. It solves nothing about congressional gridlock because the republicans will do even more to block any legislation coming from a Kerry WH. They will hate McCain while at the same time chortling that: Democrats only control half of one branch of government.

This news makes me absolutely sick. One bill for campaign finance reform does not a Democrat make. I may be uncomfortable with the two party system, but at least I understand that there should be a difference.

Any good McCain could have done Kerry was done when he refuted the WH charges that Kerry was weak on defense. This mornings headlines have damaged us all, making all Democrats seem but pale imitations.

And if you get this so-called A-list politician to join the ticket, what then? What is the profit ot gain the world, but lose your soul?

[Beatrix]

32. All I have to say is

god help us if Bush dumps Cheney and runs with Mccain after this...

[sadiesworld]

44. Thank-you for sharing my (some call it neurotic) fear of this.

Misery loves company. :7

[julialnyc]

33. and why would we deliver the white house to the republicans in 2008?

Clark has the same qualities as McCain in the way that he has the National Security expertise (he is far more qualified than McCain in this area) and he has independent appeal (for anyone who had a hissy fit that he voted for Reagan.....IT IS A GOOD THING....sswwwwwiiiiiiinnnnnngggg vote!)

[Capn Sunshine]

34. You Got me, Miss Bevey

Maybe because they plan on LOSING?

[cosmokramer]

35. EXACTLY!

I think the Kerry campaign is thinking precisely the same thing, but was using McCain to poke a finger in the eye of the GOP.

[xkenx]

36. WHY KERRY-CLARK

Why General Clark is the best choice for VP:

Polls show Kerry ahead of W on domestic issues, behind on national security. Overall a dead heat. W may creep up domestically as economy improves, so Kerry needs to siphon away some of W's support on security. way, and This election WILL be about national security and terrorism because W will make it that. Look at the headlines from Iraq dominating the news. Bush has already put Kerry on the defensive questioning Senate votes and the "ribbon-throwing" incident. All Bush has to do is neutralize Kerry on war/terror, and he keeps his lead. Kerry can co-opt the national security theme on Bush.
Enter Wes Clark: Clark can stand up and say, "Vietnam was a disaster, but I stayed in the military afterwards to build the great all-volunteer Army we have today. Sen. Kerry said "Send me to Vietnam" and served with great courage and honor in that war. Sen Kerry criticized that war afterwards, and I consider that dissent an act of patriotism, for he had the nation's best interests at heart. Sen. Kerry backed up that service by serving his country for these many years in the Senate, including not forgetting Vietnam as he worked with Sen.McCain for years to retrieve our POW's & MIAs. I am proud to stand with Sen. Kerry, a man I consider to be one of the great patriots of our time". (As he wraps himself in the flag and talks about winning the only war NATO ever fought, this man who is one of the most decorated military heroes in U.S. history). This man can bring in military and ex-military votes which NO other VP candidate can do,and he is "squeaky-clean."

There are many other areas where Clark complements Kerry:

1.Ability to step into the Presidency if necessary. Clark has a career of military and diplomatic leadership unparalled. He has earned the respect of European leaders (he has knighthoods or the equivalent from 18 European nations) and understands the Arab world. NO ONE has Clark's credentials to help repair our alliances around the world and gracefully resolve the Iraq problem. Plus, something that many people do not realize, as one of our major military commanders, Clark had "domestic affairs" responsibilities similar to those of mayors and governors. He was responsible for the everyday lives (schools, healthcare, safety, career advancement, etc.) of those under his command, numbering hundreds of thousands at times.

2.Clark brings a "common man" background, someone who grew up poor, earned an appointment to West Point where he finished 1st in his class, became a decorated war hero--someone with the brains, talent, and drive to go into the business world and make lots of money--who instead chose to serve his country for another 30 years or so. If this man isn't a true American hero, I don't know who is.

3. Agreement on issues: Kerry and Clark are very closely in agreementon Foreign Affairs / Homeland Security issues as well as on FreeTrade, and most domestic issues.

4. Campaigning against Bush: Clark has demonstrated, both during his campaign and since endorsing Kerry, that he is both loyal to Kerry and is a tireless campaigner against Bush. Clark has "fire in his belly" on defeating Bush. Clark can take on Bush/Cheney on all issues, especially those where Bush would like to think he is strongest.

5. Helping to win Electoral Votes - Clark should help to win all the Swing States that Al Gore just missed winning and retain the Blue States that Bush would like to have. Most candidates are mentioned because they might win one state for Kerry, Clark could help in ALL of the above swing states. This is because he is an Arkansas Southerner who also proved to be popular in the Southwest and among Hispanics and American Indians. In fact, with General Clark's military background and "All American" image he has more popularity than most democrats such as John Kerry in all parts of the country where Republicans tend to be popular. With his Military Supreme Commander status, if he could get just 10% of military families to vote Democratic (who would otherwise vote Republican) this could change the outcome in a number of states. Although Wes is now a very progressive Democrat, his past background makes people feel secure. His comfort with Religion also helps. Both Kerry and Clark have a long history of using guns (despite being pro gun control.)

6. Taking on Dick Cheney: There will be a VP debate. Only Clark can face Cheney and cite Pentagon "inside information" about how Cheney decided from the beginning to go to war with Iraq. On all military related issues, Clark will be more believable than Cheney to millions of swing voters. 4 star hero vs. the
"chickenhawk."

7. Raising funds for Kerry: This is very important to Kerry since Bush has raised so much money. It was Wes Clark who raised almost $9 million in January alone, pre-matching funds. This was about 2 million more than his closest rival. In the 5 months of his campaign, he raised about as much as Dean. While Dean started the Internet dominance, Clark continued it with equal success and still has the best web site and Blog Community around. Since Dean isn't suitable as Kerry's VP, Clark is the best choice to attract the "outsider" type people who support Dean. Clark was often the 2nd choice among Dean supporters and their 1st choice for VP under Dean. In summary, with Clark as VP choice, there would be BY FAR the largest fundraising boost to the Kerry campaign as well as a likely union with Howard Dean and his supporters. Lets also remember that Clark was the most popular with the wealthy and powerful Hollywood crowd.

8. Mutual respect: Since Kerry and his VP choice will probably be together for months, getting along with mutual respect is very important. They have to be able to share each other's secrets. As has been demonstrated repeatedly, their mutual respect for each other's careers is apparent.

9. Kerry and Clark already have a name for their ticket that no one else can claim, "TWO PATRIOTS, ONE MISSION." This alone will be worth millions in free advertising. Undecided voters are easily swayed by these powerful slogans.

10. Appeal to the Church going Americans and Patriotism-Wes Clark has a background that includes several faiths. He is the "most comfortable" of all the major VP contenders with "God" and "American Patriotism". The Flag really means something to him. This is why he is a danger to Republicans in all parts of the country. He still is Karl Rove's worst Nightmare.

11. Is VP the best position for Clark? Some would say that Clark should be saved for Secretary of State. However, if we waited, it is very possible that Kerry would lose a close election. Additionally, as VP he could be used as a 2nd Secretary of State, Defense and Homeland Security. As shown by Cheney, a VP can be very powerful when they are strong and respected by the President in National Security issues.

[cosmokramer]

37. Solid, solid, solid.

Can't agree with you more!

[Scoopie]

38. You're forgetting one thing...

Kerry and Clark also really LIKE one another.
I don't think this is the case with *some* of the other VP candidates.

[cosmokramer]

39. True...very true. They are close friends...and have been for

quite some time...unlike his feelings towards another person (is the word 'distaste'?)

[Scoopie]

40. Yep... Kerry is the reason, I believe

that Clark stumped for Cleland in Georgia in 2002.
You know, since Clark's such a Republican and all. Heh!

[cosmokramer]

48. Scoopie, I have a question for you...

...don't you find it kinda odd that some of arguements (and people) so passionate for Edwards as VP sound terribly familiar to the arguement and people who said Dean's Confederate Flag flap was a "brilliant Clintonesque triangulation"...? Just wondering.

[mountainvue]

42. I think it is going to be

Wesley. I think the McCain thing was a head game with KKKarl.

[TLDHOME99]

43. from your mouth to Kerry's ears

[sadiesworld]

45. What if the McCain speculation was a plan to pave the way for

Clark?

Kerry implies that he is looking for someone who is independent and can bridge the divide, i.e., McCain. Then he announces that Clark is to be his running mate. It really puts those Reagan votes in an entirely different context. Not only do the Reagan votes appeal to many independents (and moderate republicans), but it deflects media criticism (Kerry: "Well, obviously I wasn't looking for a partisan...").

Yet, Clark will also be acceptable to most on the left. His policy positions are progressive, he opposed the Iraq War, and "at least he's not McCain!".

:shrug:

[Gloria]

46. Clark's name was GLARINGLY omitted from today's LA TImes article

(seen in another thread on this) at the very end of the article....Gep, Edwards & Tom from Iowa were listed as being "vetted." Of course, we know that Clark has also gone through vetting...it was reported...and yet, we see this omission.

Someone is very afraid of Clark.

As for this VP crap....the report is that Kerry asked as late as last week; now we have a McCain associate confirming multiple "askings"...

The story, while intriguing a couple of months ago, is now resurfacing with a vengeance and in a way that makes Kerry way too eager for McCain. Plus, the headlines that I see..."McCain REJECTS Kerry" or "Turns down" Kerry are lousy.

Whoever "releaked" this is of great interest to me...Who was it in the Kerry camp? What contacts to they have elsewhere?? Do they have any links to the leaks in the Boston press by that two-bit reporter, whose most recent opus is all about Edwards actions to be VP?? If it isn't from the Kerry camp, where is it from?

[Hippo_Tron]

47. Clark has no baggage

And neither do most of the popular favorites for Kerry's VP. McCain and many of the more centrist dems are more likely to put additional states in favor of Kerry, but they have their drawbacks as well.