Obama said americans who enjoy firearms do so simply out of frustration...

[george_maniakes]

...so says Hillary.

"I disagree with Senator Obama’s assertion that people in our country cling to guns and have certain attitudes about immigration or trade simply out of frustration,” she said."

http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/04/12/clinton-portrays-herself-as-a-pro-gun-churchgoer/

She just buried herself under a mountain of crap of her own making. The assertion that republicans are using issues like gay marriage and the 2nd amendment to divide americans is obvious, as is the fact that thats what obama was talking about (hell if three cnn commentators can get it that fast anyone can). The fact that she is using those same republican wedge issues against obama in a democratic primary is astounding. This is what power-at-all-costs looks like ladies and gentlemen. Its not pretty.

[MethuenProgressive]

1. Blaming Hillary for BO's BS?

[george_maniakes]

18. she had a chance to land a shot by saying he used the wrong words...

instead she borrows a republican arguement. I dont know if its possible for someone to make themselves a pariah in their own party as fast as she is right now.

[rodeodance]

22. when has BO ever stood up for Hillary?

[george_maniakes]

24. whos asking her too? n/t

[rodeodance]

30. you are

[StevieM]

66. Right because DU really represents a scientific sampling of Democrats. And I'm sure that most

Democrats are sitting at home right now saying "I'm sure disgusted with Hillary over this bitter-gate thing."

If what you are saying is true then shouldn't Obama win Pennsylvania in a landslide?

Steve

[The Doctor.]

59. Lame. Are you REALLY that easily fooled?

She obviously DELIBERATELY misrepresented what he said.

That's what people do in politics... The sad part is watching a DUer fall for it.

[frogcycle]

2. spinning herself straight into the ground

parsing every freaking sentence and trying to turn it into something - ANYTHING - to serve as the Dukakis tank or Dean scream

sad

[Hieronymus]

28. I'm watching with glee.

[PM7nj]

3. I don't think some people get what he meant by "cling to"

I think some people are taking him literally lol.

[george_maniakes]

14. ya , obama sees some americans as literally clinging to guns and bibles...

the fact he was talking about those things as wedge issues is besides the point.

i dont know how to do the sarcasm thing :).

[rodeodance]

40. people get tired of elitist WORT games!

[PaulaFarrell]

77. what the hell is a WORT game? n/t

[baldguy]

4. Obama tells the truth; the McCain/Clinton campaign attacks him for it.

Same old same old.

[2rth2pwr]

5. Cafferty also said this-

The people are frustrated. The people have no economic opportunity. What happens to folks like that

in the Middle East, you ask? Well, take a look. They go to places like al Qaeda training camps.

http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0408/Caffertys_defense.html

[TLM]

9. Or perhaps they fill a truck with fertilizer...

and drive to Oklahoma.



Obama says middle america is angry and bitter at government... hill says let them eat cake.

[2rth2pwr]

13. Perfect. You poor rubes, in addition to being backward rednecks,

might become terrorists and kill American citizens unless you vote for me.

[george_maniakes]

16. exactly, everyone can see thats what he meant right?

or is that all only in your head? too bad.

[rodeodance]

43. how many ponies do you have now--playing the WORT game?

[TLM]

42. Try to keep up... I know word are hard an confusing...

but try to realize my words in response to a post that ignored real events that have happened in the US in order to try and spin an attack... are not Obama words.


But again way to show that you can't float your attack with obama's actual words, and instead must use distortions.

[C_U_L8R]

6. He said nothing of the kind

but leave it to Hillary to twist it all out of context.
What a wretched dishonest woman.

[AllentownJake]

7. All progressives know what he meant

and Honestly

How many gun toting, anti-aborion, and anti-immigration people are going to be voting for us come November. Shit if they look at our policies they aren't going to like them.

Rendell one PA by carrying 18 of the 57 counties. I'm giving you a hint those weren't the rural ones.

[george_maniakes]

11. you make them care about other issues more and have them vote on those.

i believe someone whos been screwed by the status quo for so long can be made to see that things can change for the better.

[AllentownJake]

31. Problem is

I used to be a very ev Christian and a democrat. I'm now more of a moderate christian however in that community voting GOP is part of the identity. Your seriously questioned if you don't toe the line amongst your peers.

I honestly can see small inroads made but we are pro-choice and they are not. Other than one of us compromising we never will be a good fit.

[benEzra]

72. Half of gun owners are Dems and indies.

How many gun toting, anti-aborion, and anti-immigration people are going to be voting for us come November. Shit if they look at our policies they aren't going to like them.

Half of gun owners are Dems and indies, pro-choice, non-xenophobic, pro-civil-unions, and anti-Patriot Act. Let's keep it that way, instead of telling gun owners get lost or lumping them in with bigots and theocrats, OK?

[jody]

73. :thumbsup:

:thumbsup:

[AtomicKitten]

8. She uses twisting his words as a springboard for her bullshit.

And her bullshit sounds not surprisingly like Republican bullshit, and I am pleased that is her strategy. It reveals precisely what the Clintons are made of and that is hubris and bullshit.

[bellasgrams]

15. BO is the one that spins the twisting tales. I first noticed in in SC

and it has continued. He can't speak the truth until he's called for it, they he has to wiggle out of it.

[AtomicKitten]

27. It's really, really sad that Democrats still buy into Clinton bullshit.

I carried the Clintons' water for two decades. I used to climb up peoples' butts here just as the Clinton Enforcers do now, so I assure you I am eminently qualified to know who's pulling whose chain here. The Clintons lie. Pathologically. To your face. They have employed the "ism" wedge issues as a political tool just like the GOP. And they are using psyops to feed you just enough bullshit to keep that wool over your eyes. But I suspect many of you do see it and refuse to yield.

No worries. Hillary has long since lost this nomination. It is mathematically impossible for her to exceed Barack in the delegate count. Her only hope is a superdelegate coup d'etat, and that's just not going to happen. I believe if you keep looking, deep down in your heart you know this.

And we are all waiting for you and your candidate to pull up your socks and accept the defeat. If you don't, I assure you the defeat will be made embarrassingly clear to you and your candidate, and you will wish you had done the right thing to begin with.

[Two Americas]

34. what on earth is that about?

"...we are all waiting for you and your candidate to pull up your socks and accept the defeat. If you don't, I assure you the defeat will be made embarrassingly clear to you and your candidate, and you will wish you had done the right thing to begin with."

This is out of control. Supposedly it is Clinton and her supporters who are ugly, divisive and hurting the party? Look at that remark you just made - dripping with hostility and hatred.

"You will wish you had done the right thing?" That is awful. Just awful.

I know, I know - "she did it first."

[AtomicKitten]

35. It's called reality. Look into it.

[Two Americas]

46. very sad

It is not a reality that I live in, and it is a reality that the voters will reject.

[bellasgrams]

10. I use to shoot skeet and trap, I did not do it out of frustration I

did it because I liked to, we also shot archery and my daughter got a scholarship for it that paid for 4 yrs. of college. All we pd was the summer classes she took before she got the scholarship. She's now a 3rd grade special education teacher. Our sports enthusiasm pd off.

[george_maniakes]

12. who said you enjoyed firearms out of frustration? n/t

[bellasgrams]

17. BO says people do. He's full of it.

[george_maniakes]

21. he said people vote on the 2nd amendment rather than economics....

cause they think the're going to get screwed on economics anyways, by either the democrats or republicans, cause they think the system is corrupt.

[rodeodance]

36. Obama: "they cling to guns or religion"

You go into these small towns in Pennsylvania and, ………

And it's not surprising then they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations.
…….
http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0408/Obama_on_smalltown_PA_Clinging_religion_guns_xenophobia.html#comments
……….

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2007/03/22/obama_defends_votes_in_favor_of_iraq_funding/

[Two Americas]

39. they are not connected

He is wrong about that, if that is what he actually meant. The two have nothing to do with each other, and it is demeaning and condescending to say that they do.

If in fact "they're going to get screwed on economics anyways," which I think thay are, whose fault would that be, and why is Obama not placing the responsibility for that where it belongs?

[rodeodance]

37. yes-here is BO saying that:

You go into these small towns in Pennsylvania and, ………

And it's not surprising then they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations.
…….
http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0408/Obama_on_smalltown_PA_Clinging_religion_guns_xenophobia.html#comments
……….

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2007/03/22/obama_defends_votes_in_favor_of_iraq_funding/

[TLM]

45. Once again... can;t quote a whole statement or even more than a few words....

because the truth shows he wasn't talking about "people who enjoy firearms" but rather single issue voters who vote based on gun or immigration as a result of an overall angry and fustration with politics and government on economic issue.

The fact you need to lie about what he said, shows how weak your position is.

[rodeodance]

55. stop lying. I posted the full paragraph --

[eallen]

80. You posted just little enough to get the effect you wanted.

The fact that it sounds quite different with a little more of the text before and after is what matters.

:hippie:

[TLM]

44. You haters continue to leave out the governmetn part....

he did not say bitter... he said bitter towards government and politics.

[Hieronymus]

19. Hillary is so desperate.

[rodeodance]

38. too bad it was BO who put his foot in his mouth

[scheming daemons]

60. Clintonian definitions: "Telling the Truth" = "Putting Foot in Mouth"

Got it.

[Auntie Bush]

20. But Obama claiming Bill and Hillary were racist was fair and not brutal?

What planet do you live on? It's called politics and it's also called a primary. How do you fight an opponent without saying something negative about them? Pat them on the back and tell them how great they are? :shrug:

[rodeodance]

33. very brutal. Now OP wants Hillary to stand up for BO boo boos!!

[Hieronymus]

41. When did Obama call the Clintons racist? Link?

[Auntie Bush]

49. Do you remember the SC primary...the one right after her NH win?

His campaign started that that rumor and 90%of the blacks turned against then..how convenient! Do you seriously think anyone would have a link confessing to that outrage and lie?

[TLM]

51. Quote link?

I do not trust haters who summarize and characterize what Obama's campaign said... you've been caught in too many lies and distortions so far.

[Auntie Bush]

54. OK, Have it your way. The Clintons announced they were racists so they could lose

their black votes...Who needed them anyway? All their years of helping and understanding blacks was just a big lie.

Put your thinking cap on...Who gained by declaring the Clintons as racist just in time for the primary? Give me a brake! Don't need much of a brain to figure that one out.

I'd also like to know how many times you hypocrites post anti-Hillary accusations without a link...except to your own bias brain and psychic powers.

[Mooney]

68. You said that Obama said the Clintons were racist.

You still haven't substantiated that. You have to provide a link if you're going to claim that sort of thing. Otherwise you're just claiming whatever and we're just supposed to automatically believe you.

Who are you? What accreditations do you hold that confer credibility to you? Why should anyone accept anything that you have to say at face value if you aren't willing to offer independent corroboration of your claims? You could be anybody.

If you're going to claim that someone said something, you have to be able to prove it. Surely, if I said that Hillary Clinton said something inflammatory that caused conditions favorable to her in an election, somebody would ask me to provide a link. Otherwise, I'm just talking shit.

[Hieronymus]

52. No link that Obama said anything like that .. you made it up.

[Auntie Bush]

63. When you don't have a link to a murderer's confession...does that make him innocent?

Just wondering? Do you expect Obama to admit to this disgusting tactic?
Go ahead...drink the K-A and don't do your own thinking. No skin off my hide.

[Mooney]

65. Why do you say things that you can't support with even a minimum of evidence?

Do us all a favor and don't become an attorney.

[Mooney]

64. Then you have no evidence to support what you're saying.

That means that what you're saying is an unsubstantiated rumor.

If you're going to say things, you should expect to be able to back them up with facts from time to time. If you can't do that, then people are going to say that you're just talking shit.

[Mooney]

62. Link?

You have a quote of Obama claiming Bill and Hillary are racist? Please link to it.

Thanks in advance.

[sniffa]

23. I enjoy them because they make me horny

[Forkboy]

25. ....

:spank:

:rofl:

[sniffa]

29. ..

:D

It's why I can't join Army - I'd be walking around, standing at attention at all times.

[nebula]

26. They don't want change

Clinton and her partner in crime McBush are happy with the way things are in Washington. so they attack the candidate who represents a challenge to the entrenched status quo. They hope to put a stop to him at all costs.

[rodeodance]

32. BO camp claiming Bill and Hillary were racists. Things come back to bite you know.

[TLM]

48. Quote? Link?

As usual just more bullshit.... all the obama camp did was compile quotes from Bill and Hill on the subject.


Try again, your desperation is showing.

[rodeodance]

47. so says Obama: right here: *********

You go into these small towns in Pennsylvania and, ………

And it's not surprising then they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations.
…….
http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0408/Obama_on_smalltown_PA_Clinging_religion_guns_xenophobia.html#comments
……….

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2007/03/22/obama_defends_votes_in_favor_of_iraq_funding/

[TLM]

50. Why the need to chop chunks out of the quote?

And note you only use the cherry picked attack from politico, not the whole transcript from huffington post.

You are clearly aware you're distorting what was said and taking steps to keep people from checking the facts with the full transcript.


Even a biased hater can't spin the real statement in context as anything more than a clear and honest statement about why single issue voters are upset with government and politics, and why they focus on single issues like guns and immigration.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mayhill-fowler/obama-no-surprise-that-ha_b_96188.html

Full transcript:

OBAMA: So, it depends on where you are, but I think it's fair to say that the places where we are going to have to do the most work are the places where people feel most cynical about government. The people are mis-appre...I think they're misunderstanding why the demographics in our, in this contest have broken out as they are. Because everybody just ascribes it to 'white working-class don't wanna work -- don't wanna vote for the black guy.' That's...there were intimations of that in an article in the Sunday New York Times today - kind of implies that it's sort of a race thing.


Here's how it is: in a lot of these communities in big industrial states like Ohio and Pennsylvania, people have been beaten down so long, and they feel so betrayed by government, and when they hear a pitch that is premised on not being cynical about government, then a part of them just doesn't buy it. And when it's delivered by -- it's true that when it's delivered by a 46-year-old black man named Barack Obama (laugher), then that adds another layer of skepticism (laughter).

But -- so the questions you're most likely to get about me, 'Well, what is this guy going to do for me? What's the concrete thing?' What they wanna hear is -- so, we'll give you talking points about what we're proposing -- close tax loopholes, roll back, you know, the tax cuts for the top 1 percent. Obama's gonna give tax breaks to middle-class folks and we're gonna provide health care for every American. So we'll go down a series of talking points.

But the truth is, is that, our challenge is to get people persuaded that we can make progress when there's not evidence of that in their daily lives. You go into some of these small towns in Pennsylvania, and like a lot of small towns in the Midwest, the jobs have been gone now for 25 years and nothing's replaced them. And they fell through the Clinton administration, and the Bush administration, and each successive administration has said that somehow these communities are gonna regenerate and they have not. So it's not surprising then that they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations.

Um, now these are in some communities, you know. I think what you'll find is, is that people of every background -- there are gonna be a mix of people, you can go in the toughest neighborhoods, you know working-class lunch-pail folks, you'll find Obama enthusiasts. And you can go into places where you think I'd be very strong and people will just be skeptical. The important thing is that you show up and you're doing what you're doing.

[rodeodance]

53. I posted his full paragraph. so stop lying

[JayFredMuggs]

56. Anybody that requires a gun to feel safe, to feel good

Has the WRONG lifestyle, the WRONG place to live, and the WRONG attitude toward fellow human beings.

Get out, find a place to live where you are less afraid, and don't need to kill another human being to feel "safe".

You are living a life of a Republican, based upon fear, not upon human interaction and trust.


Of course, one in 10,000 of you would die living this way, but one in 1000 will die living in a world where fear is your major motivation to own a gun.

Just look at the statistics, the number of children who accidentally kill, the number of domestic disputes that end up as murder or murder suicide.......or worse, the number of victims killed by their own gun taken from them in struggles.

Oh yes, there are thousands of people who own a gun who never died because of the gun, but there are hundreds of thousands who never own a gun, and never have any danger in their house. Statistics are so deceiving.........when you get right down to it, find out how many people without ANY weapons die because of weapons, and how many MORE die because they own weapons in the house......simple statistics.

[eallen]

58. Accidental gun deaths in the US are quite rare. Accidental death by poisoning is more common.

Something tells me you don't know much about statistics.

:hippie:

[JayFredMuggs]

67. Link?

No, gun owners don't DO links............

OK I will do it FOR you...........


"8 children a day die in murders, suicides and accidents involving guns

- since John F. Kennedy was assinated more Americans have died from gunshot wounds at home than died in all the wars of the 20th century

- Osama bin Laden would need at least nine twin towers like attacks each year to equal what Americans do to themselves every year with guns.
.....................

If Osama bin Laden had had more sense, instead of launching a terrorist attack, he would simply have provided financial backing to the NRA. "

http://thegreenman.net.au/mt/archives/000473.html

[eallen]

69. Perhaps you would prefer a link to real data?

In 2004, there were 649 deaths in the US due to accidental discharge of firearms. That compares to 3,308 due to drowning, and to 20,950 due to accidental poisoning. As I said, accidental gunshot deaths in the US are pretty damn rare. That's a bit surprising, given how many Americans hunt carelessly. But that's the fact. I use the usual source for such data, the US Statistical Abstract. You can find it here:

http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/

Of course, I could make that small number sound big, by putting it as "2 per day," rather than relating it to population, and comparing it to other causes of death. I could even lump it with suicides and homicides. But being an honest fellow, I won't do that.

When you read a billboard or website that leads with how many deaths per day are caused by guns or smoking or bathtubs, you're almost guaranteed to be reading propaganda.

:hippie:

[eallen]

71. And BTW, I'm still supporting Obama. Guns are not a large issue to me....

What really chaps me about guns and politics is that it is a wedge issue that many Democrats are stupid enough to bite on. The availability of guns is not what drives crime rates. It wasn't the AWB that caused murder rates in the US to plummet when Bill Clinton was president.

On the other hand, if Gore hadn't bitten on that issue, he likely would be president today. And we would have been spared the last seven years and three months.

:hippie:

[benEzra]

76. Victims killed by their own gun are almost unheard of...

even the Kellerman et al paper (the bogus "43 times" study) never claimed that any crime victims were killed by their own guns. The National Crime Victimization Survey didn't find any, either.

The only statistically significant way you're likely to be shot with your own gun is if you commit suicide with it.

[Arkana]

57. Not actually what he said, but we know from Hillary's IWR vote

that critical reading is not her strong suit.

[frazzled]

61. Feh, they enjoy them out of compensations for their ...

unusually small penises.

Everyone knows that.

[jody]

70. BO was board member of the Joyce Foundation that funds the Violence Policy Center (VPC).

Joyce also offered BO a position as its president.

VPC’s primary goal is to ban handguns.

Would an anti-abortion group select a pro-abortion person for its president? NO!

Would an anti-handgun group select a pro-handgun person for its president? NO!

BO bears the mark of an anti-handgun supporter, a fact that will be noted by voters who recognize that handguns are the most effective, efficient tool for self-defense, the choice of 850,000 sworn law enforcement officers.

That’s important because SCOTUS will probably rule in D.C. v. Heller that the Second Amendment protects an individual right to keep and bear arms, not a collective right.

SCOTUS posed the question in D.C. v. Heller as:

Whether the following provisions, D.C. Code §§ 7-2502.02(a)(4), 22-4504(a), and 7-2507.02, violate the Second Amendment rights of individuals who are not affiliated with any state-regulated militia, but who wish to keep handguns and other firearms for private use in their homes?

BO should promise voters “I will veto every bill that comes to me as president that infringes upon the right of law-abiding citizens to keep and bear arms for self-defense.”

Without that specific promise, BO could easily follow Gore and Kerry to defeat.

[eallen]

74. FWIW, Obama has said he believes the 2nd amendment protects an individual right.

He hasn't said much about what constitutes that right, or the extent to which he thinks it can be regulated. But unlike many, and likely due to his background in Constitutional law, he does not argue that the 2nd amendment relates solely to militias.

:hippie:

[jody]

75. BO & HC want to ban semiautomatic firearms and handguns. That fact shouts lie to their claims

to support the 2nd Amendment.

[eallen]

79. Really? Where does he say that?

[jody]

81. Visit DU's Guns forum and read many threads that discuss the anti-RKBA positions of HC & BO. n/t

[eallen]

82. No, this is something that should have a very simple answer, with no reference to forums here.

I did not ask where a DU poster said that Obama said whatever. I asked where Obama said what you claim. The right reference isn't to a DU forum, but to a page in one of his books, or a link to his website, or to an article where he is interviewed, saying what you claim.

:hippie:

[mudesi]

78. She is despicable (nm)

[Marie26]

83. So now this is Clinton's fault?

Obama made the statement - I don't see how she mischaracterized the statement at all, it's basically a word-for-word repetition of what Obama said.

[RunningFromCongress]

84. He said they cling to those issues in an election