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The argument is not about whether or not people are "bitter".

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Lyric Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-13-08 06:47 AM
Original message
The argument is not about whether or not people are "bitter".
It's about whether or not they'll tolerate having their bitterness pointed out by a mere candidate as one major reason why they are passionate about wedge issues. Regardless of whether or not we suspect that it's true, *nobody* wants to hear something like that about themselves. I personally believe that Obama spoke the truth, but I also believe that it was a really stupid thing to say if he wants to win the general election. People here gripe about Clinton making political hay out of this, but really, she isn't the biggest problem. The biggest problem is (and will continue to be) the hay that McCain and his right-wing media pundits are going to make out of this. It's not going to go away anytime soon, because the right-wing won't *let* it go away--and that would be true whether Clinton had said a word about it or not. Her response wasn't just about slamming Obama--it was about protecting *herself* from the right-wing outrage onslaught that is sure to follow. She made sure to oppose his comment--not just to hurt *him*, but also to protect her own chances in the general if she wins the nomination. If this turns out to be something that truly has wheels, something that Obama can't talk himself out of, then most of us will be glad that she did what she did. It was the only way to make sure that at least one Democratic candidate can't be pinned down and politically vivisected over it in the general election.

Don't be too quick to blame Clinton for Obama's mis-step. If Obama can't recover, then her loud denunciation of his remarks might be what saves us from McCain in November. I know that most people here automatically assume that Clinton never does *anything* unless it's for herself, but in this case, what she did was just as much for the Dem Party as a whole as it was for herself. If she hadn't come out strongly against those remarks, then McCain would have *both* of our candidates nailed to the post over it. Sure it benefits her too, but that doesn't negate the benefit to the party, and it's shortsighted to pretend otherwise.

Being a president is kind of like being married to the country. You've been chosen, and the bottom line has been signed--therefore you have more perceived "right" to speak about uncomfortable truths. Being a candidate (and a primary candidate at that) is more like courting--you have to be careful not to say anything that can be taken as "too critical" or insensitive. Obama seems to have forgotten that he's still in the "courting" stage, and was speaking the kind of uncomfortable truths that America only allows Presidents to get away with. It doesn't make him a bad person or a bad leader, but if he can't somehow fix it, it just might make him unelectable. In the end, *we* are not the ones who need to be convinced. We'll vote for the Dem candidate no matter what. But the rest of the country is not DU.

I personally think that Obama's doing the best that he can to neutralize this. His apology was the right step, although I think he needs to focus more on spinning his words--perhaps saying, "What I meant was that small towns in PA rely on things like guns and religion, things like familiar communities and traditional views about trade, because those values provide emotional comfort when the times are hard". That would be the spin I'd put on it, personally. If he focuses on the fact that the things he mentioned are sources of comfort when people are distressed--not crutches when people are bitter--and he might be able to do some effective damage control.
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bowens43 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-13-08 06:56 AM
Response to Original message
1. It wasn't a mistep, it was right on
but idiots like Clinton and her supporters try to spin it into a misstep. I hate to break to her and her supporters in the press, but Americans are not as stupid as she would have you believe.
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Eagle_Eye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-13-08 07:01 AM
Response to Reply #1
5. It wasn't a mistep, it was an insult.
Are you getting dizzy spinning this gaff for Obama?
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TLM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-13-08 07:04 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. There was nothing insulting about it....
Edited on Sun Apr-13-08 07:04 AM by TLM

He was talking about why wedge voters vote for wedge issue like guns/god/gays etc.


The only thing insulting are the idiots trying to claim Obama said all people who own guns or go to church are bitter.
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Eagle_Eye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-13-08 07:08 AM
Response to Reply #7
14. The people he insulted are not going to analyze the semantics of his words
The rural voters heard Obama insult them. What the voters heard is what influences their votes, not what Obama really meant.

Obama is a powerful speaker. Powerful speakers can make powerful mistakes. Obama just made a big one.
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EffieBlack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-13-08 07:28 AM
Response to Reply #14
29. Let me get this straight - you say these voters are too ignorant
to understand Obama's comments as well as you do, and you criticize HIM for insulting them?

Interesting.
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Eagle_Eye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-13-08 07:33 AM
Response to Reply #29
32. It is very hard to get a second chance at a first impression
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EffieBlack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-13-08 08:08 AM
Response to Reply #32
38. That's not the point - you claim the voters are stupid, you criticize Obama for
treating them like they're not, and then you insist that it is HE who has insulted THEM.

Rich.
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Eagle_Eye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-13-08 09:54 AM
Response to Reply #38
40. Please point out where I called anyone 'stupid'
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ecdab Donating Member (834 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-13-08 07:30 AM
Response to Reply #14
30. The only thing that makes it look like a mistake is the spin that Hillary
is dishing out. Without that dishonesty - there is no mistake. It's funny how many people are jumping on board with spin that they recognize as spin. And not just any kind of spin - spin we are all accustomed to hearing from the right wing. Odd.
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Eagle_Eye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-13-08 07:33 AM
Response to Reply #30
33. Are you dizzy yet?
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Hepburn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-13-08 10:12 AM
Response to Reply #14
43. It was NOT an insult....
...get it yet? The ONLY person who is spinning it this way is Hillary and she has gotten a few of her stupid supporters to drink the Kool Aid.

:eyes:
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Voice for Peace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-13-08 09:26 PM
Response to Reply #14
46. People who can think for themselves aren't going to be insulted
by Obama's remarks, they're going to be insulted by Hillary's demeaning their intelligence.

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LiberalZrule Donating Member (84 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-13-08 10:20 AM
Response to Reply #5
44. I am getting
dizzy because everyone is spinning it to the advanatage of their candidate. What Obama said was offensive. If he was not wrong in what he said then why does he need to apologize for it? Spin THAT!
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Voice for Peace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-13-08 09:30 PM
Response to Reply #44
47. He's not apologizing! But he is clarifying.
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BigBearJohn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-13-08 07:07 AM
Response to Reply #1
12. Are these Americans you are referring to the very same that voted for George W. Bush TWICE?
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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-13-08 07:10 AM
Response to Reply #12
17. PA. is a True-Blue state, and it's best not to forget that. I'm tired of the stupid slams against
Edited on Sun Apr-13-08 07:10 AM by WinkyDink
my DEMOCRATIC state.
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Lyric Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-13-08 07:15 AM
Response to Reply #12
22. Actually, Pennsylvania went for Kerry in '04
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Eagle_Eye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-13-08 07:24 AM
Response to Reply #12
27. Bush is not in this election. I am talking about Obama. Please come up to speed; this is 2008
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BigBearJohn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-13-08 07:41 AM
Response to Reply #12
36. Oh, I thought you were talking about smart Americans -- not from any state in particular.
Edited on Sun Apr-13-08 07:42 AM by BigBearJohn
:sarcasm:
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-13-08 06:58 AM
Response to Original message
2. Why wouldn't Obama "recover".
Was there a Dead girl found in bed or something.

Proportion is important here. The serious concern that I have with this intensely focused over-the-top “outrage” on this subject, is that, in essence, Obama is being judged as not worthy enough to speak on the state of our politics as it specifically relates to that group of voters, even though, he just happens to be running for President. Perhaps he should have gotten permission first--But more disturbing still, is that perhaps Barack’s real problem in reference to talking honestly about this often time discussed political subject is that some do not see him as being of the “ilk” of those he is talking about. It is possible that some do not consider him to have enough in common with that part of America, although his mother hailed from rural Kansas, and hence, half of his gene pool is of that “ilk”? Possibly. Could it be that because Sen. Obama is ½ Black, he is not afforded the ability to comment on those he might lead under an Obama administration according to those who set the rules; the true elitists?

Ironically, White politicians, pollsters, pundits and anyone and his/her mother have been seen commenting on the Black vote, the Hispanic vote, the Gay vote, the educated vote, the youth vote, the male and female vote for the last 3 months, in a manner that has not always been preapproved. At such times, the voters are efficiently segmented, dissected and analyzed, and long and short hypothesis are clinically formulated as to why those folks might have voted as they did. In some rare instance, campaign pollsters are given microphones in order to announce to the entire world ahead of time who will be voting for whom.

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Eagle_Eye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-13-08 07:03 AM
Response to Reply #2
6. We don't need to waste our time, money and effort "recovering" from this.
We need to put our support behind the candidate that can beat McCain in the General Election.

We need to put our support behind Hillary.
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TLM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-13-08 07:06 AM
Response to Reply #6
9. Yeah the war hero vs the sniper liar....


that'll play out well.

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Eagle_Eye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-13-08 07:11 AM
Response to Reply #9
19. A cut throat Republican vs an inexperienced, well meaning, Liberal Democrat
If Obama goes up against McCain, it will be a blood bath; it will be our blood.
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-13-08 07:07 AM
Response to Reply #6
11. She will be losing......
Because many no longer support her, forever.

There is one voting bloc in particular that will be saying, thanks, but no thanks. This will be a group of folks that are used to getting the shaft so that 4 more years matters little. These are the folks that can weather a bad supreme court appointment made President McCain, because they aren't really into the right to choose to that extent.

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Eagle_Eye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-13-08 07:12 AM
Response to Reply #11
20. Forever is a long time. I hope you will be voting for the Democratic candidate this November
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EffieBlack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-13-08 07:21 AM
Response to Reply #2
25. Dead on
Edited on Sun Apr-13-08 07:24 AM by EffieBlack
White folks have been all over television and newspapers for months telling everyone else how we're voting and why.

But, of course, that's different.
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thepurpose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-13-08 06:58 AM
Response to Original message
3. No one wants to hear the truth. And you if you speak truth you are stupid. Because Americans can't
handle the truth if it does not come from someone who they elected who did not tell them the truth in the first place.
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Eagle_Eye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-13-08 07:05 AM
Response to Reply #3
8. Obama's 'truth' resulted in a perceived insult to potential voters. His inexperience is showing
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TLM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-13-08 07:08 AM
Response to Reply #8
13. The only people who see it as an insult are Hillary/mccain supporters...


That's why both Hillary and mccain are in full spin mode right now.
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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-13-08 07:11 AM
Response to Reply #13
18. And you of course know this how?
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Eagle_Eye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-13-08 07:14 AM
Response to Reply #13
21. The Obama campaign is spinning this issue so hard, time is slowing down
Spin is going back and doing a detailed reinterpretation of Obama's words.
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-13-08 07:09 AM
Response to Reply #8
15. Perceived is right....because in actuality, it's bullshit.
We know it, even if you don't.

The woman will be losing. Whether it is the primaries or the general election is the only question remaining.

Watch.

Folks are already saying, we will fix her ass.
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Eagle_Eye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-13-08 07:20 AM
Response to Reply #15
24. I know that people voted for Kennedy over Nixon because of the perception they got from television
Perception influences the way people vote. Go ahead and spin Obama into our nominee, and the American voters will perceive McCain as the better choice no matter how many translations of Obama's speech are published.
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Saturday Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-13-08 07:17 AM
Response to Reply #8
23. You are exactly right, It's inexperience on Obama's part that got him into this. nt
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Voice for Peace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-13-08 09:33 PM
Response to Reply #23
48. You're right. He doesn't have any experience at dishonestly manipulating voters.
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thepurpose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-13-08 07:23 AM
Response to Reply #8
26. Okay. So what? Did he offend all voters? No McCain and Hillary have never said anything to offend
potential voters or never will? What is your point this kills his entire run because he told the truth?
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Eagle_Eye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-13-08 07:32 AM
Response to Reply #26
31. My point is Obama is repeatedly making amateurish mistakes
Obama's lack of experience in conducting campaigns at the Presidential level is going to hurt our chances of gaining control of the White House.

Hillary is a Democrat. McCain is a cut throat Republican that will run a negative campaign against every little misstep Obama makes plus all the ones the repukes can invent.

If Obama's next gaff offends the main stream media, he will never see the light of day. Obama does not have the experience nor the political capital to weather the coming McCain storm.

Hillary has experience and political capital to spare.
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thepurpose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-13-08 07:36 AM
Response to Reply #31
34. Obama's lacking of experience running campaigns? Now who is out of touch
Every time I have seen anyone discuss Obama's running of his campaign it has to been to cite how much more effective and organized his campaign is to the others. He has a more effective organization and has raised more money. Hillary and McCain would kill for those things. Now if you want to say he has to watch every statement he makes so as not to offend some potential voter, than I think you are setting an impossible standard for anyone to make. The GOP has enough stuff in reserve from the 90s to throw at Hillary so I don't agree that she has any thing to spare. As far as experience she has been a Senator for what 3 years longer than Obama?
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Eagle_Eye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-13-08 10:10 AM
Response to Reply #34
41. Obama is organized, efficient, and well funded, but can he weather a full fledged republican attack?
What is Obama going to do with all the money he has raised? Buy the Presidency? If he forgoes public funding after stating to McCain he wouldn't, he is handing the repukes a talking point/issue that will be hammered up to the day of the election.

Obama can organize his folks better than his opponents can. Good for Obama, but can he get his orations organized to prevent miring himself in controversy? (This is an experience issue.)

Obama does not need to be concerned about offending some potential voter, he needs to be concerned with offending large, powerful blocks of voters. He really needs to be concerned with the MSM because they are a fickle lot. The favor the press shows one candidate and the negativity it shows the other can flip in a heartbeat. How much experience does Obama have in the full scope of national politics outside Illinois?
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Voice for Peace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-13-08 09:35 PM
Response to Reply #41
49. Yes he can, and he will.
Without stupidity and dishonesty on his side, he's got an excellent chance.
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Eagle_Eye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-14-08 05:28 AM
Response to Reply #49
51. McCain has old age and cunning
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Liberal Gramma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-13-08 10:02 PM
Response to Reply #41
50. He's already weathered a full fledged republican attack
from his Democratic opponent.
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Lyric Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-13-08 07:06 AM
Response to Reply #3
10. No, but there is a time for unvarnished truth about uncomfortable things
and that time is NOT when you are trying to convince people to vote for you. I would say that the only exception to that would be when telling a "moral" truth, such as a candidate might do when asked about a bigotry-related issue. Republicans can go soft on bigots all they want, but Democrats don't do that. Racism, sexism, and homophobia are not something we step lightly around, ever.

As for my post--disagree as you like, but this is how politics works. We can argue all day and all night about whether or not it *should* work that way, but until society evolves a lot more, this is the framework that our candidates must work within. Obama himself would likely tell you the same thing, if he wasn't personally involved in this. It was a stupid thing to say and he knows it. Now he just needs to find a way to spin it that minimizes the damage done.
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Eagle_Eye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-13-08 07:00 AM
Response to Original message
4. Let's make this 'go away' right now. Neutralize the problem. Dump Obama and support Hillary
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-13-08 07:10 AM
Response to Reply #4
16. !
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Eagle_Eye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-13-08 10:11 AM
Response to Reply #16
42. We're Number One, We're Number One!
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Chiyo-chichi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-13-08 07:28 AM
Response to Original message
28. Spare me.
This attack on a Democrat as an elitist doesn't sound familiar to you? Kerry, Dukakis, McGovern... shall I continue?

Hillary attacks her fellow Democrat using material straight out the Rebuplican playbook and you would have us believe that she did it for the Democratic party??!!


:puke:
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Lyric Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-13-08 07:39 AM
Response to Reply #28
35. Yes, at least partially.
However, it's no bother to me if people choose to think otherwise. I'm not here to change hearts and minds. My focus is on getting a Democrat into the White House. If it means that one Democrat has to use abrasive rhetoric to make sure that she can't be hammered in the general over this mistake, then so be it, and my thanks to her for it.

I've lost my idealism, I guess. I've given up on getting a real progressive in office, and I'm willing to forgive political maneuvering if it means that we get a Dem nominated that can beat McCain. Call me bitter.
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thepurpose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-13-08 07:45 AM
Response to Reply #35
37. I don't think its idealistic to want someone to be honest. How can you know they are really a
progressive if they don't?
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Lyric Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-13-08 09:04 AM
Response to Reply #37
39. Neither of our candidates are progressives
Surely you've noticed that. Neither of them are honest, either. They're politicians. I guess *that's* what I've lost my idealism about--the notion that candidates should always be honest. Unfortunately, America doesn't seem to value honesty--at least not when it might make us look or feel bad.
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Chiyo-chichi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-13-08 08:55 PM
Response to Reply #35
45. It's a specious argument, at best.
I also want to get a Democrat in the White House, but everything Hillary says and does these days is said & done purely to give her a chance to get the nomination. Several of her recent tactics have me believing that she has little concern for what is best for the Deemocratic party.
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