I don't understand...

[Blue_In_AK]

I'm not particularly an Obama supporter, but I don't get all this outrage about the "bitter" remarks. Could somebody explain to me in simple terms what people are so upset about? Something about guns and religion being comfortable things that country folks turn to when they're upset? :shrug: Am I oversimplifying? I don't understand why people are offended.

[saltpoint]

1. The Clinton camp is attempting to Macacafy Obama by casting him as

a haughty urban elitist versus her duck-huntin' tough-girl profile.

I don't think it will work.

[Jed Dilligan]

2. They're offended because they're told to be offended

by candidates and the media. Being offended is the new offensive weapon in politics.

It promises, at least, a rapid end to our country's problems--in the form of a rapid end to our country.

[acrosstheuniverse]

3. Senator Casey talked to CNN today - will somebody make a thread for it?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=1yxCdrUEzsI&feature=user

[baldguy]

4. It all started with this:

Obama, in San Francisco:

You go into these small towns in Pennsylvania and, like a lot of small towns in the Midwest, the jobs have been gone now for 25 years and nothing's replaced them. And they fell through the Clinton Administration, and the Bush Administration, and each successive administration has said that somehow these communities are gonna regenerate and they have not. And it's not surprising then they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations.

And McCain/Clinton's like "Bitter? Why should they be bitter? Obama's just an elitist snob who doesn't understand the barefoot & toothless voter like I do."

Meanwhile the reality-based community has Mrs Obama picking out her new china pattern.

[Bensthename]

5. Oh really. You think he sniper gate lied?? Please read about PA workers here

http://www.reliableplant.com/article.asp?pagetitle=Manufacturing%20job%20losses%20cripple%20growth%20in%20Pennsylvania&articleid=11398

[baldguy]

8. "And it's not surprising then they get bitter..."

When people in power like McCain/Clinton not only don't do anything about "Manufacturing job losses cripple growth in Pennsylvania", but make it easier for corporations to ship jobs to China & Mexico. Maybe you should read these things before you post a link to them.

[Bensthename]

9. That is true

I must have misunderstood your position. I thought you were defending the view that every thing is just fine and peachy in working class America when it come to trade..

[Tom Rinaldo]

6. Not "turn to"...

"Cling to". Words have meaning. He used the wrong words. Strong people may "turn to" their foundation for support but weak people "cling to" crutches to help them cope. Angry people may be hopeful that righteous anger can change the picture, but bitterness is associated with sour resignation. It's not a pretty picture to be called bitter and leaning on crutches like God Guns and a rejection of change and strangers in order to deal with one's frustration. Some people take offense.

[Blue_In_AK]

10. Okay, I can sort of see that...

So essentially the foundation for what he said is true, he just described it using "loaded" words that some people take offense at.

[Tom Rinaldo]

15. Essentially, yes

He also made the mistake of neglecting to say "some people who live in small towns" which contributed to making what he did say sound like a sweeping generality that didn't acknowledge that there are plenty of people in small towns just like there are in big cities who don't fit the picture he was painting.

His phrasing would not have been as problematic had there not obviously been a full court press campaign by the Right for well over a decade to paint the National Democratic Party as out of touch with small town American values and an effort to tag cosmopolitan Democratic elites in big cities and on the coaasts as being disdainful of people in small town America.

If Obama really meant some of the implications of some of the words that he used, the foundation for those implications actually would be controversial, I would certainly hesitate to simply call them "true". But I don't believe Obama meant those implications, which is why I think it is fair to call his actual wording "a gaffe".

[amandabeech]

33. His words also suggest that rural voters turn to religion and guns only because of their economic

circumstances.

I'm from a small town in the Midwest. My Mom is a very religious Methodist. I'm not. My late Dad couldn't wait for hunting season each year. I never wanted to go with him.

However, my Mom and her friends have been religious since someone first said the word "Jesus" to them, and my Dad hunted with his father, who was born in 1875.

In other words, religion and guns go 'way back, and devotion to each doesn't always depend on economic circumstances.

As to his other assertions, in my town, it doesn't make much difference what color you are, if you haven't lived there at least 10 years or married someone who did, you're an outsider. When there aren't enough decent jobs to go around, no on welcomes any competition for them, and it doesn't matter where the competition comes from. And globalism hasn't done much for anybody except those who serve the wealthy tourists from Chicago and their boats.

My county went dem in '06 for governor and senate, despite the fact that the candidates were both women. It was the first time that I can remember any dem doing anywhere that well. Things are changing.

Right now, no one is really paying attention to the Presidential race, but people will in the fall. I expect that the pubbies will make lots of nasty commercials featuring Rev. Wright and bitter rural voters.

I don't expect that Obama will carry that county after these two incidents, but I hope to be wrong.

For the record, I'm an Edwards person, have no favorite between Clinton and Obama, and expect to vote for the dem candidate in November.

[Bonobo]

14. People "cling" to their loved ones when facing danger. Don't be ridiculous.

[Tom Rinaldo]

19. Do a Google search on "Clinging behavior" sometime

Sure there are multiple potential uses for ever word, but even the picture you convey is not exactly one of strength even though it is normal behavior. More relevent though are phrases like "cling to false beliefs".

[Bonobo]

20. Unlike the overworn platitudes that people are hopeful, the "clinging" verb captures

the vital essence that people are in trouble economically. Yes, there is desperation involved when homes are foreclosed, when teeth rot from skulls due to lack of dental care, when people languish from lack of health care and proper food.

There is a phrase in Japanese about how drowning people "cling" to straw. Do we have the same one in English, I forget.

The point is, it was not an unthought out word. The negative connotations you ascribe are a matter of perspective.

An observer will indeed see something pathetic in a person clinging to straw while drowning, but the drowning person himself may see hope in that straw.

[Tom Rinaldo]

23. I don't think Obama was crazy or callous to use that word

just foolish, in a political sense. Yes in a controlled conversational environment with proper framing and context, "clings" captures an aspect of the truth, but "clings" also easily lends itself to misinterpretation, and that, at root, is all that I at least am saying about this "controversy". I am not condemning Obama as an elitist. If Obama has any lack of nuanced understanding of small town life I bet, out of my basic respect for him, that he still has a better grasp on it by far than most Americans who have not lived in small towns themselves. And I think Obama would work hard for the ultimate benefit of residents in towns like those.

So no, I don't claim his use of "clings" is proof that Obama lacks empathy or understanding of the real life situation that people in small towns are confronted by every day, or that he is an elitist. I say it was a political "gaffe" for what in hind sight at least should be clear enough reasons.

P.S. I don't know if we in America "cling to straws", but we "grasp at straws" :)

[Bonobo]

26. Ah yes, grasping. In any case, we are seeing the MSM and the Clinton and McCain people

trying to set up the "frame" for how the people will view Obama's statement. They are trying without really knowing if it will stick.

I say it won't and the proof will be in the pudding.

Meanwhile, here on DU, some people continue to willfully and disingenuously say that he was being elitist -just to suit their own political ends.

I no longer buy ANYTHING the MSM is trying to sell me, including the inevitability of the American people being taken in by theses swinish , out-of-context, cherry-picked sound-bytes.

I do not buy that the American people will be fooled by this one, or the Wright one, or the snub-one, etc.

Not buying that shit. Why are you so sure it was a political gaffe? I submit that your view is based on the Prevailing Punditocracy Position (PPP?) which is to say that it will cost him.

I think it will not. I think it gies him another opportunity to open up conversation that has been closed to us up to now. Hillary tries to slam the door shut! Heavens no! Americans are not bitter! They are hopeful! Ha! You just wait.

The bitter ones have been the ones sitting it out all this time, Tom. They never thought they would get a candidate from outside the system. When they get one, they will rage, and they will shake the foundations of this Mediaocracy.

[Tom Rinaldo]

28. Not to labor the point

since we agree that Obama's intentions were honorable, but the bitter/anger reference has at least as much upside as downside spin potential, I don't worry about that as a gaffe. If Obama had simply said that MANY people in small towns have some bitterness, some anger, because they know that they aren't getting a fair shake and they have been given little reason to believe that anyone in government actually cares what really happens to them, we would not be having this conversation.

I am not rooting against Obama dealing effectively with this if he can. Peace.

[Bonobo]

29. Peace to you as well...

No offense, but the word is "belabor"

[Tom Rinaldo]

30. LOL It must be my pro labor leanings that led to that gaffe n/t

[2rth2pwr]

27. "An observer will indeed see something pathetic in a person clinging .."

That's exactly how Obama sees the rural folk, and that is why it is insulting.

[ColbertWatcher]

7. I doubt anyone is really upset...

...this is one of those "I know I should be pissed, but I don't know why yet" situations.

Too bad it happened just before the weekend, now the GOP-controlled media can get their stories straight just in time to bleat about it all next week.

America, dump all those poser newsmen, there is only one pundit with the balls to treat you right

[EFerrari]

11. Most of it is just orchestrated noise. n/t

[bridgit]

12. It's The Obama Family Litany. From Michelle Americans are "lazy, complacent", before young...

black students it's, and I paraphrase, "You're tired of being 2nd best. When you know you're #1". From his pastor it's, "Goddamn America!!". From Barack it's "They're just bitter, dear hunting, immigrant hating, ignorant cause they got no options, religious gun toting (presumably then) white people" forget all the bangers on the street every bit as afraid & bitter. From his TV face time folks it's open mics, open smirks, snigger's, and condescension.

There's an aggregate negativity Obama has brought to the table. Oh, it's been as smooth as neo-Mary Poppins 'little bit of sugar makes the kool aid go down'. But I remain unconvinced that it can be spread much thinner. People are a good deal more than just bitter; they're sick & tired of such unsolicited litanies being bandied about and then cast out as 'private', and not for public consumption.

You really have to wonder just what they do say about us when they close the front door and turn to their inner circle.

[Liberal Gramma]

13. Can I assume you're not an Obama fan

Your negativity is staggering. How about posting something positive about your candidate instead of slinging shit at mine?

[bridgit]

16. I'm a Democrat, I'll support the nominee. That gives me far more latitude...

than people running up & down the block tripping over themselves while trying to explain away their candidates clearly observable foibles. We just attended Beethoven's 9th last night. Part of the talk prior to concert involved Ludwig's, at once, brilliance...and naivete.

Brilliance in that the 9th is that: brilliant; but Beethoven's naivete in that he offered a glimpse into political change via shear hope, and the prospect of simple change...

One is not being "staggering negative" when one points out that it will take more than cheering pom-poms and condescending litanies to turn a nearly destroyed world back around from this present day Napoleon Bonaparte: g.w. bush and his republican handlers.

You want negativity, read between your candidate's lines http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=5467884&mesg_id=5479140

[Liberal Gramma]

17. Was that your positive message?

I'm glad to hear you're voting D no matter what; I am too. If Hillary gets the nomination, she has my vote. But I think we can agree that neither candidate is perfect. I happen to be able to overlook Obama's foibles easier than I can Clinton's, and apparently the reverse is true for you. Here's to a Democrat in the White House in 2009!

[bridgit]

38. Understood, peace! That I should say and cheers!

I think it is ours to lose...please, let's not do that :toast:

[PM7nj]

31. Good god...

What in the world is wrong with Michelle saying "You're tired of being 2nd best. When you know you're #1"? Also, that is not what Obama meant at all... and you know it!

[LiberalZrule]

18. Here are some simple terms

those remarks were at a PRIVATE fundraiser...lets get that out there...which were never intended to be plastered across the country in forums and the media. He is stating the only reason why those people, who have lost their jobs, turn to religion and guns. It makes it sound like they are religious fantatics that are going to shoot some immigrant because they are bitter about their financial difficulties. People do not cling to religion because of bitterness but because of hope. People buy guns for one of two reasons...to protect themselves which is not bitterness or to hurt people, which is could be bitter motivated. And finally people are bitter towards immigrants because of mispercieved notions they took their jobs away when the jobs went over seas not to immigrants. That is why it is offensive. Clear it up for you?

[PM7nj]

32. That is not what he said, not what he meant...

and you know this perfectly well.

[BenDavid]

21. obama=SNOB: it's an elitist thing, you wouldn't understand.

Obama is trying to put a spin on his own recent words and make it look like he is a victim. He is trying to get the media to report that he only said the people in PA are bitter and they have a right to be. Sorry Obama, it is not going to work.

You(obama) said:

“And it’s not surprising then they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren’t like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations.”

These are YOUR words, not guilt by association like Rezko, Ayers, Wright and the others, this is YOUR view, words out of YOUR mouth. Obama, did you say you were sorry? Nope, you tried to act like it is Hillary’s fault then tried to blame it on McCain. You stood by what you said and acted arrogantly about it. There is NO SPIN on this, Obama, you said it, you meant it and you should apologize for it, not try and blame other people for it. This one is on YOU Obama! Stop trying to spin it like you actually care for the people, like you are a victim as these words say something totally different. These are NOT “just words.’

[housewolf]

22. Around here, the outrage...

The Clinton folks took the opportunity to try to turn Obama's words to their benefit so they took a pollitical opportunity to be outraged over Obama's words and are trying to paint him as an elitist.

The Obama folks are outraged at the actions of Clinton and her supporters for attempting to inflict Republican-like damage upon Obama when what Obama said is basically true.

There you have it in a nutshell.

[Tom Rinaldo]

25. No. What Obama meant to convey is basically true

What he literally said included a sweeping and not especially favorable generalization about people living in small towns, if you take into account the way in which his words are likely to be heard out of his intended context. You may think I am splitting hairs, but this is important. If Democats don't have a good enough "ear" to "hear" what was wrong with the literal words Obama used, we will continually be played to our disadvantage. Communication has two parts, delivery and reception. In politics especially reception is all important.

[scarletwoman]

37. Well done nutshell!

:thumbsup:

[bhikkhu]

24. Obama explains it much better than I could:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x117931

the whole context, from well before the campaign started. Now, I would say things are worse as far as people relating to government. We have a repug president and a Dem congress, and both of them have miserable approval ratings.

[BzaDem]

34. Here is why people are offended.

Saying people "cling to guns and religion" because of economic woes makes it sound like guns and religion are not important for their own reasons. It makes it sound like the only reason insecure people feel strongly about the 2nd amendment and religion are because of some economic reason, and they by themselves have no meaning.

Very few people on this board see this, but most people outside this board do.

[Hepburn]

35. Try again...without spin, OK?

[scarletwoman]

36. I know lots of people have given you some good explanations, but one thing I see getting left out is

that the overarching point Obama was making had to do with why people vote based on wedge issues (good ol' God, Guns, and Gays -- in this instance, he used the example of Guod, Guns & Immigrants) that the Repugs like to throw up to win elections.

What he was saying is that people have realized -- after years of seeing the government do nothing to make their lives better -- that they really AREN'T going to get any economic help from the government. So they base their votes on wedge issues instead. And he was saying why that's understandable.

It's pretty much the same argument found in the book, What's the Matter With Kansas. It's a good, solid, FDR Democrat argument to make.

What *I'm outraged about is how Clinton deliberately distorted the point he was making, and then attacked him using right wing framing. For me, it showed that she cares nothing for the Democratic party, only for her own ambition. It was a classic Rovian attack -- who needs that kind of shit from a supposed Democrat toward another Democrat?

sw

[CTyankee]

39. I'm with you! Obama's remarks are refreshingly honest and they are the truth.

And as the movie line goes some folks "can'thandle the truth!"

Anybody who says they won't vote for Obama in the GE because of that remark is just looking for an "acceptable" excuse not to vote for a black candidate. They are not real Democrats. We do not have their votes but we really didn't have them all along.

[BooScout]

40. maybe they are bitter?

:shrug: