Just a reminder: If HRC had dropped out on Super Tuesday, A DEMOCRATIC LANDSLIDE WOULD BE ASSURED!

[Ken Burch]

Everything is worse because she stayed in. We are all weaker and McCain may slip by us.

SOME of us wanted a progressive future for this country. SOME of us wanted the war to end.

Now almost nothing good can happen. Now the war will go on forever. Now the Republicans will never be stopped again.

Somebody tell me why every good Democrat shouldn't be disgusted by where we've now ended up?

And why HRC should EVER be forgiven, now that she's betrayed all of us?

Was winning really such a scary thought?

[yourout]

1. The fact that she is still in the race is not the problem....the fact that she is running like a....

Republican is.

[City Lights]

150. Agreed. nt

[enid602]

2. so

You could say the same thing about Obama.

[Ken Burch]

4. No you couldn't. HRC was already permanently unpopular with the country and behind in the race.

And she was never really worthy of women's or worker's votes anyway.

[enid602]

11. viable

Review the rules on the process of the primaries. She's a viable candidate.

[Spider Jerusalem]

112. At this point, no, she really isn't

[Beacool]

23. Who the hell are you to decide who's worthy?????

In my opinion Obama is not worthy to even carry Hillary's purse. What has he accomplished in his life that is so remarkable that it merits your galling comments????

Please, how strong is that Kool-Aid that you people are drinking?

[Ken Burch]

29. I'm a Democrat who cares about what Bobby stood for. You don't and you aren't

You can't still care about this party or what Bobby stood for and want us to nominate the less popular, passionless, conservative candidate.

Bland pragmatism can't be progressive. A party with a non-idealistic leader, a non-dreamer, can't be different than the Republicans. The Nineties proved this.

I want the Democrats to win, end the war, and transform the country. Nothing short of that is worth wanting.

A non-idealistic Democratic ticket has to fail.

[Beacool]

39. Please, if you really think that Obama gives a damn about people,

then you are the one who doesn't care about this country. The more I see of him, the more I investigate him, the more I see the arrogant man who had one goal in mind and wanted a fast track to it: win the presidency.

Too bad that there were more experienced and worthy people for the job.

[Ken Burch]

51. HRC has no meaningful experience.

She did nothing that mattered as First Lady and had no influence in her first six years as a senator.

Face it, HRC is not inherently superior.

She has no principles and has never taken a political risk in her life. All she does is what the rich tell her to do. The Nineties proved that.

Why waste your vote on a passionless, unpopular conservative?

[Beacool]

79. Waste my vote????

I would rather vote for a potted plant than vote for Obama.

[Ken Burch]

110. Obama isn't the antichrist. He never did anything to you.

Doesn't the energy he's inspired mean anything to you? Can we afford to scoff at that and just dismiss the whole Obama movement, which is larger than the question of one candidate?

We told the Rainbow to go to hell in '88. What good did THAT do us?

[Beacool]

118. I don't trust the man!!!

I see in him a slick operator who talks a good game and who is an excellent speaker, but that's about it.

I don't hate him, I don't hate anyone, I simply have utter disdain for the man and think that he's not worthy of the presidency at this point in time. If he had stayed in the senate and acquired some actual experience (I don't equate the state senate to be at the same level), then I would have considered him. As it is, he may or may not win the WH, but he certainly won't have my help. Oh, and BTW, I'm not the only one who feels that way.

[lachattefolle]

119. No, you aren't alone in your feelings. The deal breaker for me

was the fact that Obama went to Wright for spiritual guidance for 20 years.
I'm well aware of the varied justifications given for this lapse in judgment, but the simple fact remains that had a white candidate done something like this he or she would have been long gone from politics. The *macaca moment* and the subsequent demise of Allen's presidential aspirations comes to mind, and that was one comment (although yes I know about his racist views and the noose hanging on his office wall).
What any particular DU poster, including me, thinks about Obama's membership in Trinity isn't the point though, it's what the general voting populace will believe once the 527 ads start running.

[bpeale]

143. inspiration?

i want to see people INSPIRED to help the poor. does Obama inspire that? NO, but then neither does hillary. what kind of battery acid are you obamites drinking anyway? it must be warping your powers of reasoning.

[Ken Burch]

152. Enough with the "cult" smear. Obama was the least conservative candidate in the race

After Kucinich and Edwards were forced out.

What I'm talking about isn't veneration of the guy like he's a tin god, I'm talking about what climate of political feeling is created by whoever is elected president. Obama can open the country to idealism again and HRC can't. She's a competent administrator, but mundane.

It's about who will open the space for people to organize and work in. That requires a passionate, idealistic leader.

And it just seems clear that, if we end up with HRC in the end, it will mean this whole process was a meaningless waste of time.

[bpeale]

154. obama is not trustworthy. if he can't keep his word to the democrats

(not running in 2008), then how can you trust him any other time he opens his mouth. if obama is the candidate, we will lose in november. also, if hillary is the candidate, i think she could pull off a win, but not by much.

in case you're wondering, i don't support either candidate. i am through with rewarding democrats with a vote they haven't earned. i am so through with that! and i absolutely don't care what casting my vote other than democratic means one way or the other, so don't bother with that argument. between these two candidates & McCain there is not much difference. i will be happily voting 3rd party this time around. the dems had their chance to get my vote, but its so over. i will be changing my party affiliation to independent for the upcoming november elections.

the only two good candidates we had were forced out of the race by the M$M. there aren't any dems left to vote for IMO. YMMV.

[Ken Burch]

156. I supported Kucinich and would've backed Edwards if he hadn't been forced out.

But why do you care so much that Obama ran after saying he wouldn't(and lots of other people have done that, including RFK), when his running is the reason the party hasn't been stuck with the conservative senator from New York?

It isn't Obama's fault that Kucinich and Edwards were forced out.

And voting third party means giving up on stopping the war and changing the country.

[bpeale]

169. because he was lieing then & who knows what else he is lieing about now.

being a liar is a deal breaker to me. voting third party is a way of NOT rewarding the democratic party's bad behavior. i've got news for you ... neither of the candidates will stop this war.

[flygal]

148. that is really disgusting

how is that talk going to help us win in 2008. People are not thinking back to 2004 - attacking Obama will only help McCain. My candidate is no longer running - but I'll be damned if I'm going to talk like that about any dem candidate. You are fueling the opponent and it's really sad to witness our party being torn apart.

She could have stayed in and not been so destructive - like her supporters. This is my first post on this but your comment was really infuriating. You say HRC is more worthy - good for you. But don't take down Obama just because he's driven. I thought it was too early for him to run also, but now I'm seeing him handle pressure and I happily support him. lot a good it'll do as the dems have completely destroyed his chance of coming off good in this election.

[bpeale]

141. Bobby who? Bobby Seal?

if you are thinking Bobby Kennedy, NEITHER of them is worthy to carry his mantle. he truly cared about the poor & oppressed. NEITHER of the remaining two care about anyone but themselves.

please, stop the comparison's to Bobby Kennedy. you defame everything he stood for.

[SaveAmerica]

131. 'You people'? We fellow Democrats see someone w/ the most states won, the highest

number of delegates awarded, the best chance to win in November. Hillary had none of that from early on yet she kept up the pretense that it's winnable. It reminds me of one of those movies where someone is drowning and they reach up and grab someone else to save herself but ends up pulling the other person in with them. She's got a grip on the Democratic Party and is dragging it under with her. This has nothing to do with how you, personally, see Obama when you watch him on TV. This has to do with cold hard numbers and facts of what is going on in this primary.

[jobycom]

3. If Obama had dropped out, bunnies would be painting pretty flowers across the sky with their tails

and paint made from rainbows.

[FightingIrish]

5. I don't like the cynical, destructive campaign she is running.

You might even say I'm bitter. I asked myself a question I thought would never come up. Would I vote for Hillary even if she steals the nomination? Knowing that someone like Dick Cheney will be picking McSenile's VP, I would have to stay with my party's candidate. On the bright side, I live in Oregon and I could just mail it in.

[barb162]

7. And I don't like the cynical, destructive campaign he's running.

Every chance he gets he takes cynical, destructive potshots at her.

[cliffordu]

9. Golly gosh, Barb, you changed my mind

[barb162]

60. Golly, that's terrif.

[cliffordu]

88. Now if you could just give me a couple of examples where he is

running a destructive, cynical campaign.... :shrug:

[WillyToad]

121. Give a few examples of where he talks policy

which are few and far beween....

Then give a few examples where he denounces this:

http://wizbangblue.com/2008/02/23/obama-supporters-issue-death-threats-against-critic.php">Obama Supporters Issue Death Threats Against Critic

Which is clearly done in his name, for his benefit

[Leftist Agitator]

122. Though I doubt you'll be here long enough for it to matter...

I'm going to save time and ignore you now.

[cliffordu]

139. Oh, Ok, since you can't answer my question, I'll just have to read this

crap.


:hurts:

[Ken Burch]

14. Obama wants a better country and a better world. HRC wants personal power in name only.

She'd be perfectly happy not being even a millimeter to the left of Bill, even though you would have to admit that that would make a HRC administration not worth having.

Obama would have dropped out on Super Tuesday if he'd done as badly as HRC.

Do you want us to beat McCain or not?

You know HRC can't do it. You've known it since Super Tuesday. Why do you not care about this party?

[PBS Poll-435]

31. Nice Phony

or Drunken outrage.

[Ken Burch]

56. You probably think it mattered who won in '96.

HRC isn't worth your vote if you're a REAL Democrat. Real Democrats don't hate idealists or mock dreams.

[PBS Poll-435]

59. I am a very real Democrat.

Dreams and idealism are one thing.

Getting the job done is quite another.

Here is a thought... Promote your candidate. Make signs and phone calls and all the rest.

The new politics of hope and change look pretty filthy when you spend the bulk of your argument insulting your candidate's opponent.

[Ken Burch]

71. And Obama is just as good as getting the job done as anybody.

It also matters WHAT job gets done.

Getting a non-progressive, bland centrist job done is worthless.

It can't be worth just electing a Dem to mundanely administer the status quo. There's nothing positive IN the status quo. Nothing but change is worth working for.

And I do work for Obama.

But you know there was no reason for HRC to attack on Obama's "small town" comments. And you know he wasn't insulting small town voters.

[PBS Poll-435]

77. Listen -

Obama is a worthy and candidate with a decent shot of winning.

You are kind of out there though.

Plenty of things are worth working for.

Hillary Clinton had EVERY reason to attack Obama's comments. This is an election. This is politics. If you say something that can be used against you, it probably will be used against you.

And I don't know that he wasn't insulting small town voters. He seems to be performer rather than a serious candidate. The first rule of comedy is "know your audience." He should have thought about what his remarks would sound like across the country. He didn't.

[Ken Burch]

90. I'm angry, I'm not "out there". A good man is being trashed for no reason.

And our chances are collapsing. HRC can't ever be popular again, and you and I know that voting to nominate her is voting to doom ourselves to defeat, just as every Humphrey delegate in Chicago knew he or she was voting deliberately to lose.

I want to win, end the war, and create a new country. The HRC people act like it's absurd to try to anything but help granny get her pension check. Fine, granny should get her pension check, but if we stop at that it doesn't matter that we've won the election.

Only dreams and ideals are really worth working hard for. Pragmatism without ideals is just conservatism. I don't want a party with no dreams.

[PBS Poll-435]

94. Listen HennyPenny.

The sky is not falling.

Calm down and let the process work.

And by the way...A good woman is being trashed 50x more than Obama.

[barb162]

65. Obama wants what's best for Obama.

Haven't you noticed? Obama can't beat McCain, even though McCain is a terrible candidate. Obama has bigtime foot in mouth disease when he is away from the teleprompter. I think the PA primary will show what average Americans think of his latest putting down of the middle class and poor.

[Ken Burch]

81. He didn't put down the middle class and the poor. Stop spewing right-wing lies!

He was speaking sympathetically about misdirected anger among working-class white people. The kind of misdirected anger HRC appealed to by having Ed Rendell say "the country isn't ready for a black president"(which is the same thing as saying "vote for me, I'm against civil rights".)

Obama was saying, and you know this is what he was saying, that we have to build the kind of country where no one is marginalized and excluded, no one is just declared acceptable economic collateral damage, because if we build that, we can make working class racism, sexism and homophobia go away.

This is why Obama is the true pro-worker candidate.

[enid602]

98. campaign

But most of the cynical aspects of the Obama Campaign don't come from the Campaign itself, but rather via internet threads and articles that try to blame Iraq, NAFTA and God knows what else on the Clintons. And unfortunately, most Obamatons seem too young or too unquestioning not to believe all this drivel.

It's really pretty clever; that way the Great One himself can remain above the fray, and not appear negative. But the danger is that dems will start to BELIEVE that Hill and Bill are responsible for Iraq, the economy, outsourcing and joblessness, as well as the war on the middle class. And that's not good for dems.

[Ken Burch]

109. I don't see Obama as "The Great One". I don't think he's infallible.

And he wasn't my first choice.

But I don't see how the party prospers by casting him off. It's clear that HRC is competent, but I sincerely believe she can't be progressive in office and that she doesn't want to transform or inspire. I can't see how someone who focuses solely on mundane administration should be our standard bearer.

And I don't think we can afford to tell the idealistic young "know your place and wait your turn". Look what that did to us in '68.

[The Doctor.]

6. It still is.

As soon as Clinton steps out, Obama's poll numbers vs. McCain will jump by 5% or more in the first week.

From there it's all downhill for McCain.

Mark my words. ;)

[barb162]

8. If only Obama, dropped out back then.. anyway, she'll still be president

when she wins over McCain in November.
:hi:

[Ken Burch]

21. She can't win if she gets nominated by smearing Obama.

And no one who ever won ugly ever governed as a real Democrat.

You know she'll never be popular again.

[PBS Poll-435]

62. Hope!

Change! Insult. Throw Feces. Insult More. More Hope. More Feces. Repeat if neccesary.

-- An excerpt from How to Allientate Half the Party Without Even Trying

[SaveAmerica]

137. You said a mouthful right there, it's how I feel and why I'm sticking with the clean(er) campaign.

You might want to start a new post with that or put it in your signature "no one who ever won ugly ever governed as a real Democrat". Since Hillary's actions aren't invisible to her supporters, it just leads me to believe they think running a campaign like this is OK as long as the 'process' is allowed to continue.

[gabeana]

25. Hey Barb who came away with more States and Delegates on Super Tuesday

and how many wins does Hillary have since then, if you don't know its 2, she didn't get more delegates in Texas

[PBS Poll-435]

69. NannerNanner HaHa

Really...what was the point of your post?

[SaveAmerica]

133. I wish you'd posted this at the beginning of this thread, it says everything we needed to know about

you. You don't care about the facts, you don't care about the true 'process'. You're just In It To Spin It.

[kwenu]

10. Yeah, but she didn't so we have to put her out.

[amandabeech]

12. The republicans would have dug up the dirt on Obama anyway.

And he would still have plenty of time to make misstatements that would be exploited.

It will be a nasty GE no matter which candidate is the nominee.

Don't kid yourself. And don't underestimate your opponents.

[Ken Burch]

16. If HRC hadn't blown the trivial Wright comments out of proportion, McCain would've had nothing.

We'd be fifteen points ahead.

Don't you WANT to elect a Democratic president?

You know HRC can never be popular again. And you know she can never ask blacks or the young to vote for her, since she's proven she's against racial equality and idealism.

Bland pragmatism can't be progressive. Especially when the "pragmatic" candidate encourages racism, as HRC has done in her Pennsylvania campaign.

[PBS Poll-435]

26. Except Wright is OVER

Besides Hillary had nothing to do with that. Fox News did.

Now...They can't bring it up again. And if they do, it has lost all its potency.


You lose on this point.

[Ken Burch]

35. Wright would never have mattered if HRC had been out by then.

If you still back her, you don't want us to win. You can't want us to win and back the non-idealistic,non-progressive candidate.

No one's life will change if HRC is president. Nothing will change at all. We won't even notice. She has no dreams.

[PBS Poll-435]

37. Listen -

You said something that wasn't true about Hillary and Wright. You don't acknowledge it. Fine.

If Wright's comments would have come out in October, what do you think would have happened?

I am sure that she has "dreams."

I do want us to win.

Everything will be alright in the morning. Drink lots of water and take two aspirin before you go to bed.

[Ken Burch]

58. What Fox did doesn't matter. What she did in pounding Obama on Wright

When she and you already knew she couldn't get nominated was what mattered. You know she was wrong to make it an issue. And you know that white people can't be victims of racism anyway.

[PBS Poll-435]

66. What exactly did she do.

The Wright thing was completely Media-Generated.

What did the Clinton campaign do?

[leftynyc]

126. Now I know you're not serious

You don't think the pubs would have brought up Wright? Hannity is the one who paid for all the tapes from the church's website (I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you didn't already know that). Clinton didn't bring that stuff up - it was Fox news. And it's not over yet. Rev Wright is going to be front and center in the fall and anyone who doesn't think so must be watching their very first presidential election.

[amandabeech]

114. I don't expect that the middle range voters will see Rev. Wright as you see him.

You really have the nerve assuming that I don't want a dem to win and that I'm a Hillary supporter because I have pointed out some problems that Obama may have in the autumn with independents.

[MojoMojoMojo]

13. Obama is unelectable.He wont take the VP slot.He has no use to the Dems

[ClassWarrior]

15. He's clinched the nomination. Now which candidate is unelectable again?

NGU.

[leftynyc]

127. When did he reach 2025 delegates?

That's what clinching the nomination means.

[Ken Burch]

19. Why should he take the VP slot when he's got an unassailable delegate lead?

Why do you and the other HRC people still act like she's just simply ENTITLED to the nomination, even though the party has rejected her?

Don't you want to win?

You know the conservative candidate you're backing can't win.

[Beacool]

32. I just talked to a US Rep. this Saturday who said the same thing.

In his opinion, he doubts that Obama could win against McCain because of certain things that the Republicans would not hesitate to use, but a Democrat wouldn't touch. I didn't need to ask what he was talking about, I think that we all know what they will use against him.

[Emit]

92. What?

Spit it out. "...things that the Republicans would not hesitate to use, but a Democrat wouldn't touch. I didn't need to ask what he was talking about, I think that we all know what they will use against him."

What, pray tell, are the "things" you needn't ask about?

[Beacool]

155. Oh please, don't play coy!!

We all know what the Repugs are going to throw his way. Starting with his name.....

[Emit]

158. No, really. Tell me.

Tell me what you mean. I wanna hear it spelled out.

[Beacool]

17. Well, in millions of voters opinions, everything is worse because Obama stayed in the race.

People are beginning to see right through him and the mirror has cracked. He's no longer the shiny new coin that he was a few months ago.

:shrug:

[Ken Burch]

43. If that's true, it has to doom us to McCain.

That kind of thinking can't elect HRC, and she can't govern as a Democrat if she wins by guaranteeing we'll never have a black president.

And you know if she stops Obama the chance of that is over for good.

There won't be anybody else.

And there won't ever be another candidate who appeals to the best in the country's soul.

[PBS Poll-435]

45. Wow...

That is pretty sick.

Obama is the only chance for the US to have a black President?

Right...

[Ken Burch]

61. Nobody else is going to have his appeal. Unless it's a Harold Ford type

Who's a "moderate", which means he's abandoned all other blacks.

There's not going to be anybody else if it doesn't happen this year.

And HRC is a centrist, which means she's not really a feminist, so women won't benefit if she wins. She won't transform anything. She'll just do meaningless microprograms. If you can't inspire on the stump, you can't have any passionate convictions.

Neither of these last two were my first choice, but you'd have to agree that it would be a tragedy if we ended up, at the end, with the one the hacks and the CEO's wanted to make us nominate in the first place.

[PBS Poll-435]

64. We are not electing a Game Show host.

And you might want slow down on the sweeping generalizations.

You look silly.

[bpeale]

146. i would sooner support the Rev. Jackson for President than Obama

Jackson's a helluva lot smarter & really cares about people. i will NEVER vote for obama. that's the dems loss. they just can't get past shooting themselves in the foot.

[Ken Burch]

164. The party already said no to Jesse and the values of the Rainbow.

And we gained nothing by rejecting him.

If we reject Obama as well, what other possible black leader could the party ever embrace?

It can't be worth electing a black president to Obama's RIGHT, for God's sake. And it won't be worth electing one if it takes twenty or thirty or forty more years. It won't matter if it's later.

[bpeale]

168. i am not rejecting obama because he is black!

i am rejecting him because he is unqualified and unfit to hold the office ... and that is MY opinion on him & that is what my vote will reflect. i reject obama. period. black, white, orange, purple or any other color. i would feel the same way.

[Beacool]

82. The country's soul? Poor country then........

The guy is a panderer, and yes, he also is an arrogant elitist. That's something I've noticed about him for months.

[Ken Burch]

93. Your candidate has never been about anything but arrogance and elitism.

You can't get good write-ups in FORBES and be on the side of the people.

What it really comes down to is this:

An Obama presidency can give all of us a chance for empowerment and a voice in shaping the future. There can be no empowerment in a conservative HRC presidency. All pragmatism is conservatism.

[Ken Burch]

44. self-delete.

dupe post.

[FightingIrish]

18. Hillary did seem like a nicer person

back when she was inevitable.

[dailykoff]

74. No, she was a lying troll even then.

You just didn't know about it.

[PBS Poll-435]

80. That is productive

Thanks!

[Blue_State_Elitist]

20. If Obama had never entered the race...

A DEMOCRATIC LANDSLIDE WOULD BE ASSURED!

[Ken Burch]

24. Why are you guys still acting like HRC was automatically entitled to the nomination?

She had no more qualifications than anybody else in the race, and has no passionate supporters or principles.

If you still want her now, you obviously don't want a Democratic victory, since she's now permanently hated.

[Blue_State_Elitist]

27. Why are you guys acting like she has no right to continue competing?

I for one am a passionate supporter. You act like Obama has won 90 percent of the votes thus far.

[ClassWarrior]

33. Ignore the lead bar behind Tonya's back. She has every right to compete!

:rofl:

NGU.

[Blue_State_Elitist]

34. lulz!!!11111eleven!

You are funny!

[Emit]

95. o.m.g....

that was too funny!

:spray:

[Ken Burch]

36. She has no good reason to continue when she and you know she's hurting the party.

Why do you want the unpopular conservative candidate anyway?

Why elect a Democrat who doesn't want to transform the country?

A bland pragmatist can't be progressive or feminist.

[Blue_State_Elitist]

42. Moderates win general elections.

It's not a matter of electing a progressive Democrat, it's a matter of electing a Democrat at all. I am tired of losing, an activity the left seems to thrive on.

[Ken Burch]

68. We had a "moderate" in the Nineties. You couldn't tell he wasn't a Republican.

The people are progressive on the issues.

We don't have to nominate the blandest, most conservative candidate possible to win.

We can win by defending our values and speaking up for our principles. That's what leadership means.

We don't have to deny our dreams.

[PBS Poll-435]

70. You do know that the Democratic Party

Is more than just the Progressive-wing, right?

Centrists/Moderates help with states like Ohio, Minnesota, & Pennsylvania

[Ken Burch]

85. And the Republicans have moderates too, but they don't get to keep the rest of the party out

in the cold.

We've never prospered by silencing our idealists.

[PBS Poll-435]

87. Never said anything of the sort.

I am glad that you can appreciate that the Democratic Party is a coalition of many diverse people.

1 candidate does not fit all.

[Fredda Weinberg]

30. HRC has passionate supporters ... you're deluding yourself n/t

[Ken Burch]

38. In the Republican party, maybe.

Nobody who cares about the party's ideals could still back her with a clear conscience.

She's about nothing but bland, pragmatic personal power. She doesn't want to transform the country. And you can't be progressive if you hate idealists and dreamers.

And she doesn't deserve the support of feminists, since you can't be a real feminist and be on the WalMart board.

[PBS Poll-435]

40. What about

Daisies? Can we hate daisies and still be progressive?

[Ken Burch]

47. I wasn't being silly. You can't be a progressive and back the antiidealist candidate.

Please explain why it isn't a betrayal of all progressive values to back HRC.

[Blue_State_Elitist]

53. Not all left wing Democrats take on the "progressive" label.

[Ken Burch]

73. Fine. But what's your point.

No left-wing Democrat could really want your candidate to win, since she's conservative and antiidealistic on everything.

[PBS Poll-435]

54. Cuz it is not, and I am not the one who has been hittin the bottle

Game. Set. Match

[Ken Burch]

83. I'm stone cold sober.

It's just that I oppose Republicans and you don't. If you did you wouldn't be helping destroy the candidate who has had the best chance of winning.

HRC is no longer a legitimate candidate. She couldn't do anything positive in office if she won the nomination ugly anyway, and you know it. Everyone who wins ugly stays ugly in office.

[PBS Poll-435]

84. You obviously have a lot of hate for Hillary Clinton

Have you read her book?

[Ken Burch]

96. If she still believed in what she spoke of in her Wellesley commencement speech,

I'd have no problem with her.

But she lost herself and checked her soul at the door, and she'll never come back for it.

If she hadn't joined the DLC and abandoned the poor and the workers, I'd have no problem with her.

"Getting the job" done is code for preserving the status quo and keeping activists out in the cold.

And I'm angry that she's trying to stop us winning by bashing Obama. She obviously doesn't want us to beat McCain.

[PBS Poll-435]

97. There you go with those

Sweeping Generalizations again.

She is trying to win.

McCain is McToast whoever gets the nominee.

Keating Five - Game Over!

[Blue_State_Elitist]

46. or in the group consisting of around 48 percent of primary voters so far...

Continue to marginalize Hillary supporters, it will surely help you if Obama gets as far as November.

[Fredda Weinberg]

151. How kind of you, boy, to define my gender's parameters. Stuff it.

Our party has always been divided and intolerant internally. You represent the worst of that tendency, practically inviting defection.

Well, see my tagline for details, but that earns you my contempt.

[Ken Burch]

157. What is so terrible about saying a centrist isn't a feminist?

It's the truth, Fredda.

You want to give up your principles, that's your call.

You can't be about sisterhood once you've sat in a boardroom.

[Leftist Agitator]

124. Your username in combination with your avatar drips irony.

Just sayin'...

[bpeale]

147. oh, i totally agree with this 100%. obama should have stayed out of it

just like he agreed to do. he broke that promise. how can you trust what he says now? he's a panderer & will say whatever he thinks you need to hear to win.

[jackson_dem]

22. If Obama didn't run Edwards would be the nominee and we would be on our way to victory

[kwenu]

28. Damn. I can't believe I agree with you.

[jackson_dem]

52. You probably agreed a lot with me three months ago before things "changed"

[ClassWarrior]

41. But Edwards wouldn't have abandoned his Democratic values like you...

...so desperately want Obama to do.

NGU.

[jackson_dem]

50. WTF?

If you notice my criticism of Obama isn't about his policies. He is the same as Clinton on policy.

[Hippo_Tron]

55. I don't see how Edwards could have beaten Clinton

Without Obama in the race Clinton would have gotten the vast majority of the black vote and Edwards would have been crushed.

[jackson_dem]

63. I can

Edwards would have gotten the lion's share of support from the people who are now supporting Obama. That means he would have had a boat load of money and would not have been financially disadvantaged. Moreover since there would be only two candidates of national stature running the msm would be forced to cover Edwards. The MSM blackout was the biggest problem Edwards' candidacy had. Without Obama it would not have existed. You are right Clinton would have dominated with the black vote under this scenario but Edwards, while losing most of the black vote, would keep the other Obama constituencies (although he would not have generated as much enthusiasm among young folks he likely would have carried them due to the desire for "change" and Clinton being seen as status quo) and on top of them add rural folks and be able to go toe to toe with Clinton among working folks. That would have offset him losing the black vote (which he would have lost more like 30-70 or 35-65 rather than 10-90 like Clinton is losing it to Obama). We will never know but I believe if Obama never ran Edwards would have wrapped up the nomination by now. Aside from blacks he would keep Obama's constituencies and be able to compete with Clinton among some of her strengths, working folks and rural voters. The only Clinton groups he would have trouble with would be women and Latinos. He would have done about as well with Latinos as Obama has.

Let's look at the early states. Edwards would have won Iowa. Clinton would have won New Hampshire. Edwards was never that strong in New Hampshire in either of his runs. Edwards likely would have taken Nevada with labor behind him. The reason he got clobbered in Nevada was he did not have the money to compete in the caucus there. Opinion polls showed he had a lot more support among the population, ranging from 20% to 27% (all within 5-12 points of first place in polling if I recall right) than he got in the caucus. He likely would have won South Carolina. He could have won it this time if Obama wasn't there beating him 78-1 among blacks.

As to the general, Edwards was always the most electable candidate we had.

I am not saying this is what would have happened but it is a perfectly realistic scenario under which he would have won. Of course we will never know... :(

[Hippo_Tron]

48. I'm an Obama supporter, but that's really not true

A long primary process really isn't going to kill us. Voters don't make up their minds in April, they decide in September and October. If this thing does indeed go on beyond June it will be a problem. But it really just doesn't make a whole hell of a lot of difference right now.

[jackson_dem]

57. It may even help us long-term, not just this year. We are getting record Dem registration in PA, NC

Probably also in IN but I have not seen anything on Indiana. The fact is people are excited, involved about our primaries and more people will register if the contest goes on to places like WV, KY, OR, and so on.

There is a myth that this primary is very negative and that is the fundamental reason so many fear this is hurting our party. Others just want Obama coronated, in part because they fear the longer this drags on the more scrutiny he will get and that is not good for Mr. Blank Canvass. Baloney. This primary is very tame compared to what the general election will be and has been far more civil than the Rethug primaries were, both in 2008 and in 2000.

[Ken Burch]

67. Only Obama is bringing in new voters. No new voters joined for your conservative candidate.

Then again, an admirer of Andrew Jackson, a slaveholder and the slaughterer of innocent Native Americans, really couldn't ever be expected to back a candidate of color anyway.

You probably still have your Wallace sticker on your car.

[jackson_dem]

72. That is a myth. Both candidates are bringing in new voters, as did Edwards

As to Jackson, I, like Barack Obama, am a person of color who admires the good Jackson did (saving the USA from Britain in the Battle of New Orleans in 1815, saving the union, ushering in democracy over the repulicanism that prevailed up to that point, fighting for the common man against entrenched interests like the Bank of the United States, and of course created the Democratic Party among other things Jackson, one of the few truly transformative presidents, did) and we judge him by the times he lived in.

Who are your favorite presidents, Ken?

[Ken Burch]

75. Andrew Jackson did no good at all for people of color during his life.

Worst of all, he established the meme(which HRC, to her eternal disgrace, has embraced)that only white people are "working class" or "lunch bucket Democrats".

Why would anybody of color admire a slaveholder? I'm sorry, but you've got me stumped on that one.

[jackson_dem]

91. Correct--but let's look at the historical context

Why do people like me and Barack Obama, despite being minorities, admire past figures who were slaveholders and the like? Simple, we judge historical figures by the times they lived in. I notice you didn't answer my question. Which presidents do you admire?

You are correct. He did nothing in particular for minorities as groups (although he did adopt two Native American sons. He did good for them, obviously.)--but neither did any president from Washington to Lincoln, including Jefferson, another great Democrat and someone who is the favorite president of many today and a hero to most Americans. Lincoln and Grant did some good for minorities (Andrew Johnson did not and was probably the most racist president we have ever had). From Grant no one did any good particularly for minorities until either FDR or Truman, depending on whether you count FDR not discriminating against blacks in the New Deal a particular good. Think about it. Washington took office in 1788. From 1788-1863 no president did a particular good for minorities. Then from the 1870's to either the 1930's or 1940's, depending on what measure you use, no president did a particular good for minorities. Even JFK, a modern day hero, delayed doing anything about civil rights until he was forced by events to do so and even then his bill was languishing in Congress heading no where. It took LBJ to get it done (oohhh...is that an anti-Catholic statement? I hear it is bigoted to give LBJ credit according to Obamanation). LBJ. 1964. Jackson? Born in 1767.

I am glad men like Washington, Jefferson, Jackson, Lincoln, TR, FDR, and LBJ occupied the White House at various times. I benefit today from their collective work, despite them not measuring up to the standards of 2008--just as I hope I will not measure up to the standards of 2108 or 2208. I hope the march of human progress does not stop and we are looked upon as backwards by posterity.

[Ken Burch]

108. I had no idea that you were a person of color.

I guess I assumed that admiration of Old Hickory would have pretty well ruled that out. But I apologize for any assumptions I made about you on that.

[mtnsnake]

115. You must feel like the biggest ass in the universe

[Ken Burch]

167. I feel somewhat suprised, but no, not the "biggest ass in the universe".

I think most people would assume that there's no way a POC would admire Andrew Jackson. Apparently, this is a mistaken assumption. Prior to this, Jackson Dem had given no clues whatsoever as to his race or ethnicity.

So no, you DON'T have anything to judge me about.

[sueragingroz]

163. ROFL

you really know nothing about jackson_dem do you?

[Ken Burch]

172. I know he was an Edwards supporter. I know he admires Andrew Jackson.

I never saw him make any remarks that would have indicated his race or ethnicity. I made the assumption most people would have made. I apologized to him for making the assumption. There's nothing to pile on about with this, And I find it hard to believe that anybody else knew. This really doesn't matter.

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

99. 1,000 registered today at Raleigh NC Obama office

http://bluenc.com/obama-raleigh-hq-registered-1%2C000-voters-friday

[jackson_dem]

101. Good

These are voters who will not only help us this presidential election but help us down ballot for the rest of their lives. We must keep the eye on the ball. It is not just about 2008. It is about building a governing majority.

[dailykoff]

78. It's a huge waste of time, money, and good will.

It's unbelievable that nobody has had the guts to pull the plug.

[jackson_dem]

102. Party bosses should not coronate a candidate. Only the people can pull the plug

If the people of Texas or Ohio voted for Obama it may have been over. It could be over if the people of Pennsylvania want it to be over on 4/22. In fact, had Obama won New Hampshire and not blown a double digit lead it for all intents and purposes would have been over then. She would have been as fatally wounded by losing New Hampshire as Edwards was by losing Iowa.

[dailykoff]

103. The presidential preference primary is a party function and they

can do whatever they damn well please. As for New Hampshire, Ohio, and Texas, it's pretty clear to me that if their votes had been accurately counted Obama would have won those states outright, just as he won in NH and OH election districts that used verifiable voting procedures.

[jackson_dem]

104. Wait. You think Obama was cheated out of NH, OH, and TX?

So why are you supporting someone you believe was cheated out of the election (had he won either it would be over by now)? How can you expect him to fight for us in November if the rethugs try to steal it?

[dailykoff]

105. Yes. It's a huge problem that urgently needs his attention

if he's going to win in November, but he can't focus on it until somebody drags crazy Norma Desmond off the stage and puts this stupid primary to bed.

[jackson_dem]

107. If he won't fight now what makes you think he would fight in the general?

[Imagevision]

49. If Obama can beat B-o-t-h Clintons? - McCain is cake, (putting it mildly.)

[dailykoff]

76. Not if it takes until August to beat them.

That leaves two months for the whole shootin' match and that isn't enough.

[dailykoff]

86. The Clintons know damn well what they're accomplishing.

Their motives may be a little unclear -- are they actively working for the RNC, selfishly protecting their own little fiefdom, or what? -- but any way you slice it, they're GOP stooges.

[PBS Poll-435]

89. Only in your view. nt

[ClassWarrior]

116. So you're saying they're clueless as to what they're doing?

They don't cop to what the rest of us can see so clearly? Reminds me of HRC's co-signing Bush/Cheney**'s Blank Check for Invasion.

NGU.

[PBS Poll-435]

120. The are not doing anything....

This is a campaign.

As a side benefit, all of the RW ammunition is being taken from them.

Just what are they going to use in October?

[ClassWarrior]

129. You really have no clue how framing works, do you?

Please do some reading: http://www.rockridgeinstitute.org

NGU.

[PBS Poll-435]

134. Umm...

I am not really into arts and crafts but what ever floats your boat.

Seriously. No one is paying attention, and the the media is already pushing the stuff that they had planned on making an October surprise.

I am sorry that you are upset that Barack Obama has not yet been given the throne.

This extended primary season is excellent practice for whatever candidate gets the nod.

Imagine if Kerry & Edwards had slug it out until May. We probably wouldn't have had to endure Bush's second term.

[ClassWarrior]

136. I guess willful ignorance is bliss.

I wouldn't know.

NGU.

[PBS Poll-435]

138. Right...

Why are you so bitter?

Can you name the only 20th century Democratic President, who wasn't President during a World War to be re-elected to a 2nd term.

[ClassWarrior]

142. Light bulb the bathtub??

On the free going some apple??

:rofl:

NGU.

[PBS Poll-435]

145. Makes as much sense

as anything else you say....

:shrug:

[krawhitham]

100. they were pretty much tied after Super Tuesday

It was the 12 contests after Super Tuesday that she lost that did her in

[McCamy Taylor]

106. If Hillary and Obama had both dropped out John Edwards would be the nominee.

Which would be great by me. They only got where they are because the news media pimped the two of them shamelessly while denying Edwards any coverage.

They should have paid to buy him equal time for all the unfair free media time they were getting. That would have been the fair thing to do, if we are going to be absolutely fair about this.

[Ken Burch]

111. I'd have backed Edwards if he hadn't been forced out before the Alaska caucus.

But that was the media's fault.

[VotesForWomen]

113. more pure fantasy from a kool-aide drinker. nt

[ruggerson]

117. She won Super Tuesday

Winners don't usually drop out.

[Tyler Durden]

123. Don't have the lottery numbers, do you?

PM me with them. I'll buy tickets and give you a cut. Swear to Dog.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

125. I'm an Obama supporter, but HRC shouldn't have dropped out then.

If there was a time for her to drop out, it was when she lost 11 contests in a row, but she and Obama essentially tied on Super Tuesday.

[Bensthename]

128. I totally agree. We would be together, raising money for the gen and beating up on grandpa McCain,.

[BigDDem]

130. "Senator Clinton can run as long as she wants."

Bitter Barry.

[shadowknows69]

132. I think it should have gone to Texas/Ohio

But without convinvcing wins on that day she should have quit, like her husband pretty much said she would. That was the first sign to the electorate that the Democratis can't keep our own house together and I guarantee McCain will try to use that against us. They'll laugh at how long it took us to get a candidate.

[Cameron27]

135. If HRC had dropped out on ST

Barack would still stick his foot in it & lose support to McCain.

[SammyWinstonJack]

140. I was disgusted that we ended up with two sides of the same coin.

Was winning really such a scary thought? It must have been, otherwise why did we allow the winning candidate(s) to be run off?

[Cameron27]

144. I bet J. Edwards is kicking himself

for dropping out now. Ditto --> J. Biden.

[caledesi]

149. I agree! NT

[Rene]

153. A Dem landside for absolutely the wrong man.

Obama is NOT the right person for the Presidency. Go Hillary....fight all the way to the convention. This is politics....not a nice,nice tea party.

Obama's true nature will be revealed before long.

[Ken Burch]

160. What does that mean?

Obama isn't evil. And HRC isn't worthy of progressive support.

Nothing is worth helping McCain get elected. If we lose this year, we'll never win again.

[Texas Hill Country]

159. if Obama had waited........

[Ken Burch]

165. ...it would have been too late.

It wouldn't be worth it if he had to wait another eight years. Since his absence would likely have meant our certain defeat, our party might not even have survived. Our party won't survive if we lose this year.

[Ken Burch]

166. duplicate post. Self-delete.

[jillan]

161. Huh? She did really well on Super Tuesday.

Why would she have dropped out then?

Ridiculous.

[dailykoff]

162. They're setting us up for yet another "comeback"

courtesy rigged election machinery. This will be what, the fourth time Hillary's "found her voice?" Meanwhile, the disgust of the electorate will just keep growing.

At some point, the cognitive dissonance is going to get so ridiculous that even oblivious CNN-believers are going to start asking wtf is going on.

[apocalypsehow]

170. Quite right, but here's the deal with that:

HRC believes that if she can't be the Democrat in the White House, no Democrat belongs in the White House this time around. The added bonus to a McCain presidency for HRC and her boosters is that it leaves 2012 open for a second run at the coronation. This has never been about what's good for the country or the Democratic party: it's always been about what's good for the Clinton's.

[ORDem]

171. K

:kick: