A question for Hilliary and her supporters.

[smiley_glad_hands]

So, Hilliary doesn't think the politics of division and the culture wars have gotten our country into the mess that we are in today?

Since she has refused to acknowledge this, are we to believe that she has bought into the conservative meme that dems & progressives are just a bunch of god hating, gun hating, gay loving, minority loving, immigrant loving, latte drinking, liberal, pinko, commies? And that we are to blame for the loss of all the manufacturing jobs, pensions, & health care? What God hates liberals Hilliary?

This is what conservatives have been using to bash us over the heads for the past 30+ years-- flame a culture war with the working class to throw up a smokescreen while the middle & working classes are being gutted economically. Hilliary doesn't understand this?

You either acknowledge the truth in this regard Hilliary or you are just furthering the conservative agenda that has been destroying the working & middle class.

[Tom Rinaldo]

1. Faulty premise

The accusation is that Obama fell into reenforcing cultural war divisions with his description of small town Americans, regardless of his true intent.

[PoliticalAmazon]

5. If you want to criticize someone's premise, lay out your own argument...

...to support your claim that Obama "fell into reenforcing cultural war divisions with his description of small town Amerians, regardless of his true intent."

You have not proven that her premise is wrong. In fact, you have done nothing to support your own argument.

If you are going to criticize others for their formal arguments, you better make sure that your own are without fault. This is not the Hillary board. There are actually people here who know about formal arguments, how to construct them, and how to destroy them.

[Tom Rinaldo]

14. Condescend much?

I wrote plenty about this over the last couple of days, and I didn't trash Obama while doing so. If Obama manages to frame this as giving voice to valid reasons why many Americans may feel bitter, he will come through this mostly OK. I'm sure he intends to do that. But if the focus instead settles on him thinking small town Americans "cling to religion and guns" and blame their woes on unwarranted concerns over free trade and strangers, it will hurt.

To start with, "Bitter" was a poor choice of words. "Angry" would have served his point much better. Anger couples with righteous anger. Bitter couples with bitter resignation. Bitter is literally a sour word. Anger can be empowering. His framing opened onto two Americas, one of youthful and forward looking Americans where multi-cultural ism is embraced and America feels hope, and then another America with the people who feel left behind, who fear changes and strangers, and who feel bitter not hopeful. Not good framing. Obama now needs to shift his narrative onto anger and away from bitterness, and he knows that.

But it was his use of the phrase "clings to" that hurt him here the most. Words have meaning. He used the wrong words: "Cling to". Strong people may "turn to" their foundation for support in times of trouble but weak people "cling to" crutches to help them cope. It's not a pretty picture to be called bitter and leaning on crutches like God Guns and a rejection of change and strangers in order to deal with one's frustration. Some people take offense. Obama's words allowed that impression to be given. It played into one of the us vs them divides that the Republican Party has desperately been selling for decades.

[smiley_glad_hands]

18. Still doesn't answer my question.

I can't lay it out more plainly than I have. Hilliary has gone down a road well traveled by repugs and conservatives.

[PoliticalAmazon]

47. YOU brought up "premise" ....

...and then failed to build your own argument beyond that.

Look to yourself when it comes to "condescend."

[smiley_glad_hands]

9. Then explain why its faulty instead trying to obfuscate. eom

[Tom Rinaldo]

28. Allow me to return the compliment

You are obfuscating right off the bat, which makes it hard to play along by your rules.

You said...

"So, Hilliary doesn't think the politics of division and the culture wars have gotten our country into the mess that we are in today?"

And that is a false premise. The argument you want to pursue is that Hillary is furthering the politics of division and culture wars by not backing Obama's comments. That is arguably debatable. But you obfuscated by starting with a false premise. You did not support your actual premise with any arguments.

I pointed out that Hillary in fact agrees that the politics of division and culture wars have gotten our country into a mess. And she feels that the words that Obama used feed the festering politics of division and culture wars. You disagree and Obama is some where in the middle because he acknowledges that he didn't use the best words possible to make his point and he regrets if they offended anyone. He's not expressing regret to Clinton campaign staffers, he's expressing regret to any small town Americans who took offense at his less than perfectly chosen words.

[smiley_glad_hands]

33. Tell me oh kind sir what is my premise that I have not supported with any arguments?

Please tell me how attacking Obama with republican frames is helping the party again? Fact: She refused to embrace the truth in Obama's statements, that republicans have been using culture wars to divide this country and to gut the working class. If she cannot accept this as truth then she needs to drop out right now, one can only expect more of the same from her.

Is this clear enough, or would you like to try to snow the argument some more?

[Tom Rinaldo]

38. Posting is a voluntary act

Given the tone of the responses you have given me, I think our differences are clear enough where they currently stand. If you don't see how I have already answered your opening assertion perhaps others may.

I already noted what debate you wanted to have, and you are launching into it now here without your initial false framing of the question. If I felt better about our capacity to engage constructively in discussion together, I might play with you here longer, but I don't.

DU is a big message board. Your thread isn't the only chance DUers get to discuss the concerns you raise.

[smiley_glad_hands]

40. Snow the question some more.

You can't answer the question because you know what she did was wrong, uncalled for, and ultimately hurts the partys chances in Nov.

[PoliticalAmazon]

51. Look...

...I didn't mean to sidetrack this folder into a discussion of logical arguments and logical fallacies.

By far, the majority of message-board posts are not in the form of logical arguments. Many of them are logical fallacies (i.e., ad hominem attacks, red herrings).

But when someone criticizes another poster for a "faulty premise," that is criticizing them for not forming a logical argument. And if you are going to criticize someone for a faulty premise, if you yourself don't construct a logical argument to defend that conclusion, I believe you need to be called on it.

[smiley_glad_hands]

59. I am a fan of logic and agree.

Please dissect my statements and tell me where my logic is wrong.

[SeaLyons]

2. You completely miss the point...

and it's completely unfair to blame Hillary for something that came out of Obama's mouth. It's manipulative of both Obama and his supporters to try to place blame for his "words" on Hillary. She has every right (and I think a duty) to point out how wrong his words are.

Seems Obama has quite a way of using speeches and words, explaining his meanings, and blaming his opponents every time he is exposed.

[smiley_glad_hands]

10. Seems you fail to see the truth.

And in so doing enable republicans.

[enid602]

16. internet

And his operatives on the internet go even further by developing arguments that the Clintons were responsible for Iraq, the economy, outsourcing and joblessness as well as the war on the middle class.

[BigDDem]

32. Maybe he can blame this

on Deval Patrick.

:rofl:

[Apollo11]

3. Hillary is saying that most folks don't like to be preached at or looked down on, is all.

Compassion Forum - April 13th - CNN transcript

MEACHAM: Senator, we'll start with the news. You have been extremely critical of Senator Obama's recent comments in San Francisco in which he argued that some hard-pressed Americans have -- economically hard-pressed Americans have, and I quote, "gotten bitter and cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or antitrade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations."
Senator, you have written of how faith sustained you in bitter times. Many of us have been sustained by our faith in bitter times. What exactly is wrong with what Senator Obama had to say?

CLINTON: Well, I'm going to let Senator Obama speak for himself. But from my perspective, the characterization of people in a way that really seemed to be elitist and out of touch is something that we have to overcome.
You know, the Democratic Party, to be very blunt about it, has been viewed as a party that didn't understand and respect the values and the way of life of so many of our fellow Americans.
And I think it's important that we make clear that we believe people are people of faith because it is part of their whole being; it is what gives them meaning in life, through good times and bad times. It is there as a spur, an anchor, to center one in the storms, but also to guide one forward in the day-to-day living that is part of everyone's journey.
And, you know, when we think about the legitimate concerns that people have about trade or immigration, those are problems to be solved. And that's what I think we should be focused on.
But I am very confident that, as we move forward tonight and beyond, people will get a chance to get to know each of us a little better, and that's really what I want to talk about. I will leave it to Senator Obama to speak for himself; he does an excellent job of that.
And I will speak for myself on what my faith journey is and what, you know, leads me to this chair here tonight.

BROWN: But, Senator, you've been out there on the stump attacking him pretty aggressively over this. And his response has been -- and he said it pretty bluntly tonight -- shame on you. You know that he is a man of faith. This is what he's saying. And to suggest that he is demeaning religion is you playing politics.

CLINTON: Well, he will have to speak for himself and provide his own explanation. But I do think it raises a lot of concerns and we've seen that exhibited in the last several days by people here in Pennsylvania, in Indiana where I was yesterday, and elsewhere, because it did seem so much in-line with what often we are charged with.
Someone goes to a closed-door fund-raiser in San Francisco and makes comments that do seem elitist, out of touch and, frankly, patronizing. That has nothing to do with him being a good man or a man of faith.
We had two very good men and men of faith run for president in 2000 and 2004. But large segments of the electorate concluded that they did not really understand or relate to or frankly respect their ways of life.
And I think that is an issue for voters, as I've heard today from people I visited in Scranton and elsewhere. So this is a legitimate political issue. And there are some issues that are not. But this one is.
And I do believe that Senator Obama will have a chance to explain himself tonight. And I'm sure he will take that opportunity.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0804/13/se.01.html

[PoliticalAmazon]

7. She is pulling a Rove: criticizing her oponent for what she herself...

,,,is critically guilty. The fact that she added antoher Rovian tactic--take bits of an opponents statement and twisting it into a lie--is a good indication of how much she truly is like Bush Jr.

Sadly, many of the Hillary supporters, who do not speak out about this, are turning into BushJr supporters, too.

We criticized Bush Jr supporters for not speaking out against his campaign tactics. Now it's time for Hillary supporters to do the same thing, or admit they are as bad as Bush Jr supporters and their candidate is the Bush Jr equivalent.

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Tom Rinaldo]

6. Ah yes, half the Democrats in the country are acting like "Good Germans"

I bet you don't even see the irony of making a comment like that in response to this controversy about words conveying elitist attitudes.

[PoliticalAmazon]

8. Please state your reasons for claiming Hitler was an elitist...

...be prepared to have your argument shredded.

[Tom Rinaldo]

19. It is a claim of moral superiority to say I as an Obama Democrat, unlike those other Democrats

who follow Clinton, refuse to act like a "good German". All claims of superiority over others in one's peer group, in this case Democratic voters, are subject to being viewed as elitist in content.

[PoliticalAmazon]

54. Criticisms of behavior aren't "elitist." They are statements of fact...

...or opinion.

The "Good Germans" stood by silently while Hitler behaved in clearly unethical ways. It started with small things, and built all the way up to genocide.

Many Hillary supporters have stood by silently while Hillary has used BushJr/Rove tactics...actually WORSE tactics than Rove used. As Hillary has been allowed to get away with it by her supporters, some of whom continue to support her (although many have left her campaign), Hillary's unethical actions have worsened.

I believe those who are willing to stand up for what is right, no matter who is doing the wrong, are better than those who go along with what is wrong. That's not elitist. It's simply my belief about what makes a moral and ethical person.

[TacticalPeek]

22. Please cite a claim that Hitler was an elitist. There is none as anyone can plainly see..

I imagine you think that making up facts and then attacking them is helpful to your awesome logician kung fu, but your thinking is faulty.

[smiley_glad_hands]

11. The culture wars have been promulgated by the true elitists in this country.

Hilliary just enabled them by using their frames against obama. She is damaging the progressive movement and the party.

[Marrah_G]

17. Nice broadbrush smear of fellow Duers. Disgusting.

[smiley_glad_hands]

24. But its OK if Hill throws the party and the progressive movenment under the bus though? eom

[Marrah_G]

12. Hi- your post is lame and contributes to the culture of division here

You will not get any sort of conversation going with a post like that, but then, you really just wanted to slam Hillary and her supporters in the form of a question. As if somehow that makes it less of an attack.

You don't get to tell me how I have to think- nor do you get to insult me by saying I am working for the conservative agenda.

You post is insulting and offensive and I hope to see it locked soon.

[smiley_glad_hands]

13. Answer the question or leave the thread.

You don't get to come into this thread and act all indignant and tell me what questions I can and cannot ask. It is a legitimate question. Answer it or leave.

[Marrah_G]

15. Nope sorry- You don't get to behave like a bully.

Your post was offensive and insulting. You are part of the problem on DU.

[smiley_glad_hands]

20. LOL. Leave the thread if you don't like it.

Bully, ha, I call Hilliary on her bs and now I'm a bully? Your ignorance is part of the problem in our country.

[Marrah_G]

25. Again you do not get to behave like this to other DUers

Your behavior towards others here is nasty and rude. This has nothing to do with "calling Hillary on her bullshit"

This has to do with your bad attitude and behavior towards others on this forum.

[smiley_glad_hands]

27. Feined indignance. Is that the new Hilliary tool?

Throw the party and progressive movement under the bus and get mad when somebody calls you on it. You don't get to tell me how to behave no more than I get to tell you who to support.

[Marrah_G]

30. I haven't thrown anyone under the bus. Your behavior towards other Duers is rude and uncalled for.

[smiley_glad_hands]

36. Hilliary's behavior towards progressives is rude and uncalled for.

No one asked you to come to this thread.

[Marrah_G]

41. By posting the thread you invited all DUers to respond.

If you wish to control the responses to your writing then perhaps you should try a blog where you get to approve responses before they are published.

Until then, just remember that when you post rude and offensive statements about a group of DUers, you will most likely get some negative responses. Also, when you frame questions in the manner you chose to, you are also very likely to have the conversation go no further then to have people tell you that you are acting like a jerk. Who wants to answer a question put out in that manner.

[smiley_glad_hands]

44. The only rudeness is coming from the Hill campaign. Still not answering the question?

Just here to change the subject from Hill to anything but the truth?

[cali]

21. Marrah can say whatever she damn well wants in your precious

thread, and so can Tom. They're both terrific DUers and add a lot to this place. I don't agree with them on who to support, but who the fuck are you to tell her where she can post? I look forward to joining forces with Marrah and Tom after the primary season ends.

[smiley_glad_hands]

23. All I want is an answer to the question.

Simple as that. Who the fuck are you to tell me when and how I can defend myself in a thread I started?

[cali]

35. Who am I? Someone who respects Marrah and Tom

and doesn't like seeing YOU bully them and tell Marrah to get out of a thread. I thought that was obvious.

[smiley_glad_hands]

37. Tell them to answer the question instead of obfuscating.

What are you running cover for them? The only bullys here are the Hill supporters who refuse to recognize the truth.

[cali]

39. oh, fuck. The "only bullies here are the Hill supporters"

What a crock of shit. And why should they give in to your frame and your petulant demands?

[smiley_glad_hands]

42. Why did Hilliary give into republican frames? Thats the simplest way I can ask the question.

You call me a bully for even asking it. Project much?

[cali]

46. Look, I actually agree with you that she perpetrated a repuke frame

by using the elitism charge, and I'm furious that she used Grover Norquist to attack Obama, but you actually accused people who support her of nefariously supporting repukes. You insulted the people you purportedly want answers from. And Marrah and Tom are truly good people, and not supporting anything of the kind. I come to the defense of my friends and people I respect.

[smiley_glad_hands]

49. Look, I'm not mad at you Tom, or Marrah.

I don't know you or them. I'm sure you are all great people. I apologize to you and them if my questions have offended you. But the fact still remains that Hill has indeed enabled the republican agenda and the true elitists in the country.

[cali]

52. thanks. I just think that your question wasn't well phrased

if you want sincere answers, and that telling someone to get out of thread is bad form. And again, I agree that she's not doing us any favors when she uses right wing crap to attack a fellow dem. Having said that, I'm beginning to think this brouhaha may help up more than it hurts us. It gives dems the opportunity to attack the real elitests, the repuke.

[smiley_glad_hands]

55. I hope you are right about it helping us in the long run.

I was attacked by those two fairly quickly in this thread. My question is legitimate and Hill brought it on herself.

[Marrah_G]

45. Thanks Cali...

I can't even respond to the OP anymore. Just not worth it.

:hugs:

[smiley_glad_hands]

48. You never answer the original question, so your just wasting my time. eom

[cali]

50. lol. there was no legitimate original question.

Here's what you "asked":

"So, Hilliary doesn't think the politics of division and the culture wars have gotten our country into the mess that we are in today?"

You presume that's what Hillary thinks, without providing the evidence that she thinks that. You can't possibly know her motivation for throwing the "elitest" crap at Obama, but there's clearly more than one explanation. Frankly, I go with the guess that she's desperate and eager to seize on anything to throw at him.

[smiley_glad_hands]

53. No its a legitimate question that needs to be asked and answered.

My presumption is based on her actions and words. When she attacked Obama they way she did she attacked all progressives.

You guys can keep on attacking me if you want, seeing how some are prone to selling out the progressive movement.

[cali]

56. glad to do it, Marrah

I only said what I believe.

:hug:

[smiley_glad_hands]

62. As do I. eom

[Marrah_G]

26. Thanks Cali !

I can't wait for things to get back to normal on DU.

:hug:

Thank you my friend.

[smiley_glad_hands]

29. I can't wait for Hillary to drop out. eom

[Tom Rinaldo]

31. We will fight great battles together and win

behind whoever ends up as our nominee. Thanks Cali.

[smiley_glad_hands]

34. I will vote for her. Begrudgingly.

But she is no friend to progressive causes when she denies the truth.

[MethuenProgressive]

58. Brilliant, pro-DU post, Marrah!

:yourock:

[smiley_glad_hands]

61. Yeah as DU watches Hill throw progressives under the bus.

Rock on buddy.

[MethuenProgressive]

63. BO threw every small town American under his SnobTour bus.

BO's a bitter bastard.

[smiley_glad_hands]

65. At least he didn't buy into and promote republican frames at the detriment to all progressives. eom

[smiley_glad_hands]

64. Its still a legitimate question. How's that whole lock hope coming along?

Denial is not a river in africa.

[mmonk]

43. This is like running two general election campaigns against republicans.

[MethuenProgressive]

57. Huge typo in the OP:

Instead of "A question for Hilliary and her supporters," she meant "Flame bait!"

[smiley_glad_hands]

60. She is a he btw.

It may be flame bait but that does not mean its illegitimate.

[smiley_glad_hands]

66. Kick on the hopes of getting an honest reply from a Hill supporter?