a little bit of honesty

[cali]

Yeah, some of Clinton's most ardent supporters here bug the hell out of me, and some flat out appall me. And I react to that. Often, not well. It doesn't make me blind to the fact that she has some great supporters, and I understand, even though I forget it too frequently, that Clinton supporters feel massively outnumbered and picked on here.

But I generally believe that we all have more in common than that which separates us, and that most Obama supporters here will vote for Clinton if she's the nominee, and most Clinton supporters here will vote for Obama if he's the nominee.

And frankly, I don't know that I could stick it out here if I supported Clinton. It takes either a very thick skin or real fortitude to go against this kind of a tide.

[Window]

1. Another nice, fair post Cali.

Peace:thumbsup:

[Bonobo]

2. That's how I felt when:

I supported Clark...and he lost.

I supported Kucinich...and he lost.

I supported Edwards...and he lost.

We have all been on the other side.

Eventually comes a time when you either join together or pack your bags.

[cali]

3. Yeah I know

I supported Dean, but that was a clear knock out, and even though I think that Obama will be the nominee I can see why Clinton supporters are hanging on.

[Marrah_G]

4. I left for a while- Bigtree inspired me to come back

Honestly, it's hard to stay, I ignore much of what is said. It hurts the most when it comes from once well respected people I thought were friendly acquaintances. I quickly found out how little they thought of me. I have to go elsewhere to actually converse about the primary, which is what I have been doing.

I am a Dem supporting a Dem on a Dem website.
You are a Dem supporting a Dem on a Dem website.

I wish people could understand that means we are on the same damn side.

[smiley_glad_hands]

7. Hard to deal with the truth?

Hilliary is not just attacking Obama but the entire progressive movement. I was a pretty quiet Obama supporter. Before him, I was a quiet Edwards supporter.

She attacked the entire progressive movement by saying Obama was elitist and by denying the truth of the past 30+ years. I cannot be quiet any longer

[Marrah_G]

8. Not hard to deal with the truth at all.

However it is hard to deal with people who behave like jerks towards others.

[smiley_glad_hands]

9. If by expounding on the truth that I am a jerk, then thankyou. eom

[Marrah_G]

11. People who consistantly behave badly towards others are indeed jerks.

There are many jerks in GDP these days.

You act rude and insulting and expect others to sit back and just take it. Stop acting surprised and stop pretending you think it has anything to do with truth.

[smiley_glad_hands]

12. You came into my thread, called me names and didn't address any of the legitimate issues i posted.

You are the one that is rude and insulting. Your candidate sold the entire progressive movement out just on the hopes that she might gain one or two more conservative votes.

Shame on you and your candidate.

[Marrah_G]

13. No you are really stretching the truth.

You posted a bogus question in an OP and insulted Hillary supporters in the same OP. I called you on your nasty behavior and your offensive speech about fellow DUers.

I have nothing to feel ashamed about, you are the one acting rudely.

[smiley_glad_hands]

15. It is a legitimate question that has not been answered.

You can't answer it because she is wrong. You can't answer it so you attack the person posing the question.

Fact: She sold progressives out and is still using the same republican line of reasoning to attack Obama at the detriment of all progressives.

[Marrah_G]

17. I t was not a legitimate question- It was a misleading question accompanied by an insult

I am done having this repeat conversation with you.

[smiley_glad_hands]

22. It was not misleading and its EXACTLY what she is doing.

The sooner you realize that your candidate is towing the republican line in order to attack Obama the better.

You obviously can't handle the truth.

[cali]

19. you're coming into my thread and disrupting?

How dare you??!! Leave if you can't stick with the subject. Shame on you.

*snicker*

[smiley_glad_hands]

21. Why not you came to mine and changed the subject.

Whats good for the goose is good for the gander.

[cali]

25. doesn't that make you, er, kind of hypocrite?

And I was snarking. I don't really give a damn if you post in this thread. Unlike you, I understand that once you post a thread here, it's not "yours".

[smiley_glad_hands]

26. You presume too much. eom

[lumberjack_jeff]

16. I am a progressive. I am also a rural blue collar person.

Obama needed to avoid the trap of stereotyping for three reasons:
1) Obama should know the harm of stereotypes arguably more than any modern politician. That he doesn't is vexing to "the typical white person".
2) Had he made his comments in Pennsylvania, one could dismiss it as a slip-up. That he made them in San Fransisco, as explanatory of how he can communicate with the backwards rural folks, makes it more difficult.
3) This election will be won or lost by attracting a very large segment of the population who can be convinced to swing to or from McCain. I don't think that pandering to them is necessary, but to go out of your way to insult them is intolerable.

I was a vocal Edwards supporter turned quiet Hillary supporter. Hillary his not attacking the entire progressive movement, her intentions are to keep it tied to its populist roots. An intent with which I agree.

BO's comments alienated people that we need, and the fact that BO has made only halfhearted attempts to obtain union endorsements combined with the behavior, attitudes and reactions of his more urbane supporters has further reinforced the perception that Obama is aloof and that his campaign is irredeemably elitist.

I think that the fact that we're having this conversation during the primary is a very good thing. It would be much harder to recover from this magnitude of mistake during the general election.

[smiley_glad_hands]

23. Hilliary comments have denied the damage done by republicans for 30+ years.

Clinton is still using republican reasoning to attack Obama and alienate all progressives. If you or her cannot accept the fact that republicans have used the politics of division and culture wars to divide the working class in order to pillage them economically then you are lost as a progressive and a democrat.

[lumberjack_jeff]

30. Okay. "you're either with us or against us". Got it. n/t

[smiley_glad_hands]

5. I will vote for her if need be.

But clinton supporters have no one to blame but clinton for their woes.

[rodeodance]

6. Hillary is a strong Democrat who believes in the goodness of America and

has good polices and proposals for our future.

That is the reason I support her.

And thank you for your post

[smiley_glad_hands]

24. She also likes republican frames, especially to bash her opponent and all progressives in the proces

n/t

[rodeodance]

27. I do not consider many of the BO fans progressive. And BO fans use RW smears against hillary

[smiley_glad_hands]

28. Well at least he doesn't endorse or deny what and how republicans

have been destroying our country for the past 30+ years. Yet clinton still uses the republican logic to bash Obama and all progressives.

For me, its not so much that she is attacking Obama, but she is attacking the entire progressive movement and enabling the republican frame that has gotten our country in the mess that is today. All just to win over a few white rural voters.

[lumberjack_jeff]

10. Thank you for that Cali. n/t

[sniffa]

14. Here's your first Rec

Good job Cali. :thumbsup:

[cali]

18. thanks sniffa!

appreciated.

[sniffa]

20. My pleasure

I know I'm not the calmest DUer by any stretch, but I'm trying. It's good to see you doing so as well. :hi:

[gateley]

29. If Biden was still in the running --

I'd be in there with him fighting until the very end.

I admire the loyalty of those who support Hillary, and understand their commitment.

[nichomachus]

31. It's tough to be uncommitted

I was a Kucinich supporter, and then Edwards. So I was kind of bummed out when they both were disappeared -- Kucinich by the Dems and Edwards by the corporate media.

I was undecided -- although leaning toward Hillary. I didn't know much about Barack. I expected a lot from Hillary, and have been seriously disappointed. I always attributed good political skills to her, but she has demonstrated an appalling tone deafness on issues.

I've been following politics for a long time -- as a journalist most of my life. So, I've seen and known a lot of politicians. I know what political instincts are. A good politician is someone who can take almost any situation and turn it to their own advantage.

Hillary hasn't done that. Every time she tries to attack Barack, she makes herself look bad. It's just clumsiness, bad advice, or a failure to read what's going on in the country. There's a saying that we're always fighting the last war. I get the feeling that Hillary is running in the last election. The country is in a different place and I don't think she's caught on to that.

It's been very disappointing, because I've been watching her since 1991 -- and was always very impressed with her intelligence and knowledge. This time, though, I think she's dropped the ball.

Barack, on the other hand, has impressed me. When he's attacked, he's managed to turn it to his advantage -- something Hillary hasn't done. She could have taken almost anything he said -- the bitter remark, for example, and instead of attacking him and pandering to the people (many of whom are quite aware they are bitter), she could have said "Well, I wouldn't put it quite that way, but I agree people are angry and frustrated, and here's what I plan to do about it." Then, she could have told us why she was the better candidate, instead of trying to convince us that Obama is worse.

They thew the Rev. Wright thing at Obama and he responded with the race speech that got high marks from everyone. She attacked him for the "bitter" remark and many people are responding well to him, rather than to her.

I get the feeling he's winning on points.

But, getting back to DU, Hillary's followers come across as shrill and argumentative. I understand their frustration -- maybe the same frustration that those bitter people in small towns feel. It's understandable because the tide seems to be going the other way. But I think some self-examination is in order.

My neighbor is a Hillary supporter -- put a big Hillary sign in her window as soon as they came off the press. She's a 60-something woman and an avid Dem. From time to time, she brings up politics -- I never do, but I listen politely. In almost every conversation we've had, she has never said one positive thing about Hillary. (Yeah -- that's right.) Every statement she makes starts with "So, what do you think about Obama and . . ." or "Have you heard what Obama . . ." or "Isn't that terrible what Obama..."

All I have gotten from her is reasons why I should vote against Obama and not one reason why I should vote for Hillary. I almost get the feeling she thought Hillary was going to skate into office and she blames Obama for ruining that. That's very sad. And, I wouldn't use her as the typical Hillary supporter, but I see the same dynamic at work here.

I've criticized Hillary -- first, because she's made some real blunders and second, because, as an experienced person, I expected so much more of her. Also, she just seems unaware of the bad advice she's getting and the damage she's doing to herself.

I've never promoted Obama in any way, and yet I've been called all sort of names -- cheerleader, cultist, elitist, Obamaite, Obamaniac, you know them all. I feel like I'm being bullied into supporting Hillary, but not one person has made a case why I should vote for her.

[cbayer]

32. It's also hard to be bi-candidate here.

Although I take less heat generally, it's a pretty lonely position to be in. If I say something nice about either candidate, I get labeled. If I level any criticism, I get labeled.

I have a lot of respect for many of the Clinton supporters here and a few of the Obama supporters.

Thanks again for a very helpful OP.

[cali]

33. I like reading your posts for that very reason

it gives you a rare perspective. Thanks.