How I know this is over:

[cliffordu]

Last night, in front of a crowd of religion-soaked catholics, evangelicals, Jews and what looked to be a couple of Muslims, Hillary Clinton walked into a smattering of polite applause.


Obama received standing ovation when he entered the hall.

Hillary could not answer simple questions about how her faith inspires and sustains her.

Obama answered fully without sounding like a 'religious kook' as my father used to say.

Hillary received a smattering of applause when she left,

Obama got another standing ovation when he stood to go.

The religionist vote has been critical for the last two election cycles.

:patriot:

Time for her to go.

[Cronus Protagonist]

1. The religionist vote is not something we liberals ought to pander to

Unless you're happy to toss gays, transgendered people and separation of church and state under the bus.

[Symarip]

2. Although I found last night's faith premise bogus

The fact that Obama truly is a man of his faith will resonate well. Pandering would be to falsify your belief in order to bolster yourself to a foreign group. He clearly was his own person last night.

[Hepburn]

36. Good summary of the difference between them in this particular forum.

I, too, watched this last night. Obama rang as true and Hillary appeared to be pandering. The receptions given to them respectively ~~ a noticable difference. Obama was cheered whereas the crowd politely reacted to her.

JMHO

[Bake]

53. So his faith is genuine, while others are just clinging to it because they're bitter?

Double standard, but par for the course.

Bake

[Symarip]

61. Oh?

We're going to talk about double standards now, huh?

Here's one of my absolute favorites from your Goddess of Peace:

October 10, 2002

Floor Speech of Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton
on S.J. Res. 45, A Resolution to Authorize the Use of
United States Armed Forces Against Iraq
As Delivered

Today we are asked whether to give the President of the United States authority to use force in Iraq should diplomatic efforts fail to dismantle Saddam Hussein's chemical and biological weapons and his nuclear program.

I am honored to represent nearly 19 million New Yorkers, a thoughtful democracy of voices and opinions who make themselves heard on the great issues of our day especially this one. Many have contacted my office about this resolution, both in support of and in opposition to it, and I am grateful to all who have expressed an opinion.

I also greatly respect the differing opinions within this body. The debate they engender will aid our search for a wise, effective policy. Therefore, on no account should dissent be discouraged or disparaged. It is central to our freedom and to our progress, for on more than one occasion, history has proven our great dissenters to be right.

Now, I believe the facts that have brought us to this fateful vote are not in doubt. Saddam Hussein is a tyrant who has tortured and killed his own people, even his own family members, to maintain his iron grip on power. He used chemical weapons on Iraqi Kurds and on Iranians, killing over 20 thousand people. Unfortunately, during the 1980's, while he engaged in such horrific activity, he enjoyed the support of the American government, because he had oil and was seen as a counterweight to the Ayatollah Khomeini in Iran.

<snip>
http://clinton.senate.gov/speeches/iraq_101002.html

Hm, Kerry gets lambasted for voting for the war, yet Clinton gets a pass from her supporters.

Yup, par for course.

[Bake]

67. Actually it's just the opposite

I've never slammed Kerry for his IWR vote. Nor do I slame HRC for hers. It's the Obamalamas who love Sen. Kerry (despite his vote) because he supports BHO, while simultaneously they condemn HRC for her vote, and call the whole war "Hillary's War."

Quick aside: It's BUSH'S WAR. Dems were in the minority at the time of the IWR, as I recall. They'd have done it with or without Dem votes.

The double standard is on the part of O supporters. I have my own reasons for loathing Kerry - that date back to 2004 - but his war vote isn't one of them.

Bake

[Symarip]

71. Oh??

So if the Republicans would have gone to war without them, then why didn't they stand their ground?

Oh, that's right, because they were chicken shit assholes who only cared about their political expediency in a situation where they were in the minority. All they cared about was saving their neck. Or, option 2, they're too fucking stupid and inept to read the NIE and/or the IWR in full to find out, 'oh shit, this dude is not fucking around when it comes to pulling the trigger when we have no reason to invade.' Howcome Sen. Wellstone, amongst others, figured it out? Did he have a magic ball shoved up his ass? Oh, right, he actually did his homework AND he wasn't afraid to stand his ground.

Fuck those cowards and anyone else who makes excuses for their lack of judgment. Anyone who is not bothered by the IWR vote doesn't deserve to have the military that protects them at night.

People are dead because our government moved in unison and those who were involved should be punished - Republicans, yes, and especially Democrats because they're supposed to know better.

And now, people will continue to die because we've become apathetic. We're worried about absolute bullshit and we pass responsibility off to Bush. WRONG. Everyone of those Senators deserve to be tried for war crimes because of their neglect just as much as Bush needs to be tried for leading us into this fucking mess.

But yeah, you go ahead and have a blast dancing around that issue. Your candidate sent people to die. PERIOD.

[Jed Dilligan]

83. I didn't get that from Obama's words. Did you?

I thought he was explaining why people vote for candidates who claim to espouse these issues. He's saying that people are so embittered about the decline of the economy and the government's apparent impotence to deal with it that they vote on issues unrelated to the economy--or even unrelated to the government itself.

[DemBones DemBones]

99. Bake, they don't recognize the bell of truth when they hear it ring.

The really sad thing is that I see Obama hurting the political chances of blacks for many years to come, no matter how this turns out.

[grantcart]

5. if you want to change the laws then you should engage every demographic

and engage every state, unless your happy to keep the status quo intact. Letting the Republicans have the evangelical or the gun owners all by themselves is stupid. And no I wouldn't let my children do an overnight in either of those homes.

[cliffordu]

8. I call them religionists for a reason.

I have great difficulty accepting anyone's version of a god that would hate those very groups you just mentioned.

They ARE, however a political reality here and until they can be shooed back into the churches and temples where they belong, candidates are going to HAVE to talk to them....



I thought it would be the opposite reactions to the candidates due to Obama's 'connection to terrorists' and his 'america hating pastor'....

:sarcasm:

If the rest of the religionists in this country approve like they did, he's in.

:patriot:

Me? I'm all for the separation of church and state, at every place there can be.

And complete, equal rights and protections under the law for EVERYONE.

[Symarip]

26. It's clear after last night's obfuscation of the 6 day creation

Obama believes in RAPTOR JESUS

[CK dexter]

32. Not obfuscation, a sincere attempt to marry an outdated faith with the modern world

He basically suggested what many progressive Christians believe: that the Bible should not be taken literally, and all problematic passages (whether scientifically problematic, like the 6 day creation, or ethically problematic, like stoning naughty children) should be interpreted non-literally.

This is a common view, so I don't see why it should be interpreted as deceptive or misleading. He could have pandered to the fundamentalists and just said yes, 6 days, but I think he's to be commended for what seems to be his sincere view. And it's surely nice to know that he's not an anti-science Christian.

[Symarip]

34. (Pssst)

I was joking.

[Cronus Protagonist]

35. I give him props for that too

That was not something you would ever hear a Republican saying.

[keep_it_real]

76. Many parts of the Bible are just symbolism, not to be taken literally

[cliffordu]

37. THAT'S WHO I BELIEVE IN!!!!

PRAYSE-UH GAWD-DUH,

RAPTOR JAYSUS - UH!!!!!!



:rofl:

[Symarip]

39. He's for the second amendment

[Kurovski]

72. Bunnies pray, too!

Thank you for pointing that out.

[stillcool]

48. People really are that stupid?

[ginnyinWI]

78. it's clear that he's a liberal Christian--

or whatever is the proper adjective. He's not a Fundie and not a RW Evangelical. He's on the moderate to liberal side. like Jim Wallis is.

[2rth2pwr]

104. What exactly do Muslims look like?

[2rth2pwr]

105. crickets...

[2rth2pwr]

107. did you really expect an answer?

[LaurenG]

12. Pander to?

I think you are way off base. There are religious people that I work with and there are several (more then half ) with glbt relatives.

People who love their family members and want them to be happy can still be religious. I hope that we aren't excluding people of faith now too.

[hedgehog]

13. Despite what the bishops say, 80% of Catholics support SSM

according to this poll:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_poll5.htm

(you have to scroll down the page)

[Cronus Protagonist]

15. And they give money to a church that promotes initiatives in every state against it

More Catholic doublethink. I'm done with that crap. And let's not even get started on the Mormons. They're even worse.

[hedgehog]

33. Not so much , anymore. I'm hearing more and more about parishes running deficits

and that the various diocesan collections (money that goes directly to the bishops' budgets) are coming up short as well.


It's a problem; how do you support the stuff you like while showing disapproval of the bad stuff?

Here's a good one- the two parishes in town had excellent collections when they had pastors who were in trouble with the bishop. The bishop replaced them with two yes-men and now the parishes are 25% in the hole on their annual budget!

[cali]

20. Although I don't like the pandering to the religious vote

I understand that it's necessary, and I refute your claim that all religious people are happy to throw the GLBT community under the bus or don't believe in the separation of church and state. Does the name Barry Welch ring a bell? That's the Rev. Barry Welch, btw.

[EmperorHasNoClothes]

24. Yeah, let's ignore everyone that doesn't agree with us 100%.

Because that has worked so well in the past. :eyes:

[Cronus Protagonist]

30. Now, no one said that in this thead

Maybe you should just type your complaints into a word document, then answer them in the same doc, print it out and toss them in the trash. We'd all be better off for it and your complaint would be just as relevant to this thread.

[EmperorHasNoClothes]

44. Sorry, I shouldn't have questioned your baseless, idiotic response to the OP.

[Cronus Protagonist]

47. You're right, at least not with such a scribbling. doodling thought

n/t

[bowens43]

25. They're not running for the office of 'President of the Liberals'

95% of Americans claim a belief in god or gods.

[Cronus Protagonist]

28. Right now, that's exactly what they're running for - this is the Democratic Primary

Pander all they want to the religionists on the general and shaft them when in office, is OK by me, but this is the Democratic PRIMARY.

[MindMatter]

46. We need to change the debate

I am an atheist. I am surrounded by Catholics, Pentecostals, Baptists, and Muslims -- none of which seem to have any more in common with each other than they do with me.

There really is only one right answer here -- and not surprisingly, it is exactly as the Founding Fathers set it out.

We must all be 100% in favor of religious freedom. It matters not that I believe it is all superstitious mumbo jumbo. What matters is that in America each person has the right to form and follow their own beliefs. That is the principle we should all be willing to agree on and fight for.

And the only way for that to work is to to keep all of it out of the public domain. There is absolutely no reason to ever introduce religion into our public debate. Government should stay out of that and vice versa.

A man of Obam's vision, charisma, and diverse background can reframe this debate. It is basically a Rodney King thing: Why can't we all just get along?

McCain has become really scary in this regard. There was a time I might have seen him as an acceptable compromise. About a month ago, he started peppering his stump speech with this argument that the USA was, is, and always shall be a Christian state. That is just wrong.

[ORDem]

98. Why are you assuming that just because Obama got more of their support that they were pandered to?

Hmmm? :shrug:

[krispos42]

103. Except that he's not throwing LGBT people under the bus...

to get the religious vote.

Some possibilities are that the religious are not voting their faith anymore, or the they realize that unlike Dubya, Obama is really a man of faith.

[kenny blankenship]

3. Sadly it's not over

Oh yeah the primary race is over, but all this continued fighting isn't about who will win. At this point it is ONLY about destroying our nominee.

[dchill]

27. "destroying our nominee."

So that she will be able to run in 2012. The problem with that - that won't work, either. The Clinton "brand" has gone the way of "Ovaltine", "Oldsmobile" and "Necco Wafers."

[cliffordu]

38. EDSEL

[dchill]

40. Dang it!

:)

[cliffordu]

42. ....

:hi:

[kenny blankenship]

65. Not sure it's really about 2012

Oh I agree with what you said, she'd sandbag Obama to have a shot at 2012. But on the other hand I think that you could tell Hillary Clinton she has inoperable cancer and won't make it to 2012, but she would STILL probably try to destroy our 2008 nominee. Her "husband", too.

They have an ethic: it's not enough to succeed; others must fail. And if they can't succeed, they'll be damned before they see someone else do what they could not.

[dchill]

66. That's just really scary.

I heard the governorship of NY is in the works.

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

4. he did a great job of acknowleding religion AND separation of church and state

he is being inclusive, recognizing that religion is important to some
US citizens, as well as NOT to some others.

He is running for President of the UNITED States,
not the Church States,
not the blue collar
not the liberal or conservative states,
but for ALL people.

[bpeale]

6. who cares what you know? you think you're some kind of political guru or something?

no one cares what you know. period.

[Arugula Latte]

10. What the f@#$ are you talking about?

Uh, in case you haven't noticed, this is a political board where people share facts and opinions...So, what is your problem?

Also, if you didn't care, why did you click on the thread and comment?

[cliffordu]

11. Mom, Is that you???

:rofl:

[Window]

18. I care, along with a host of others what cliffordu says.

Thank you very much.



Peace:thumbsup:

[me b zola]

41. You sound bitter

[JBoy]

58. You forgot to call him a poopy-head.

[FatDave]

62. What are you, 10?

[TexanDem]

7. he also received many more outbursts of applause throughout his answers

[BumRushDaShow]

9. I thought it was just me and figured maybe I missed the applause for her. LOL

But I guess I didn't. And this for one who claims to be taking up for those non-bitter gun-toting, church-going blue collars.

To the other posters here, yes, there is a goodly segment of the population who believes that religion is merely an opiate for the masses. But at least here in PA, there's a good chunk who still embrace religion, whether they attend a house of worship or not, and they are voting bloc (one of a number that gave the repukes the Presidency too many times).

I've always felt that there should be a way to embrace the people themselves, without the need to embrace their religion (assuming you find common subjects that don't require a religious interpretation), in order to get some coalition (and VOTES) going.

[Whisp]

14. I thought he did very well - but he always does. ;)

wasn't too fond of this whole show based around religion - kinda gave me a creepy feeling - and Hillary confirmed that feeling - creeped me out. she talks of compassion and christian beliefs like they actually mean something to her, what a phoney. How damned christian was it to vote for war, or for cluster bombs, or the K/L that could eventually lead to another war. She wants it all ways and it shows - she has no center - no well to come to, to recharge herself. She's all over the place.

But Barack rose to the occassion once again and was deservedly well recieved. He knows who he is and what he stands for and it comes out clear as a bell because he doesn't have to weigh what he has lied about in the past to make present words make any sense. That's where Hillary loses, she has such a checkered past of deceits and halftruths it's an accomplishment for her to make even one sentence that is the real truth.

[cliffordu]

17. Yeah - Obama really answered the questions, Hillary

gave responses that didn't seem to really mean anything to her - she seemed to
be telling them what she thought they wanted.

[Whisp]

54. I noticed she was wearing her canary suit.

looked like the same one she wore when she made her 'celesial choirs' sad schtick.

[FatDave]

63. Telling them what she thought they wanted?

I'm SHOCKED! Shocked I tell you!

[redqueen]

16. Butbutbut... weren't they pissed at him about that "bitter" soundbyte?

Perhaps... it's really not working this time?

[juajen]

23. Funny, like ya'll didn't see half of the audience sitting and not clapping.

Though, I do admit that Obamites screamed the loudest.

[splat]

19. So they packed the hall with Obamacrats. This is a sign to you of what?

[EmperorHasNoClothes]

29. That reality has a well-known anti-Clinton bias?

[Bensthename]

21. But do they know he used the word "bitter" in front of children?

[Life Long Dem]

22. Did she go greet the audience after like Obama did?

I heard Obama ask if they were through, because Obama said he had people he wanted to say hi to. Then he went to the audience, but I didn't see Clinton.

[GoldieAZ49]

31. If they didn't they would be accused of being racist

it is the vote that will say who stays and who goes. Votes cast privately and without name calling.

It may be Obama, it may not.

Patience is a virtue.

[CreekDog]

75. so people who support him only do it because they are afraid not to?

go on

[DemBones DemBones]

100. True, yet it's A-OK for Dems to be sexist and hate religion,

as many DUers do.

Really smart when women are more than half the population and a majority of the population is religious.

That's how we keep snatching defeat from the jaws of victory, telling people how stupid we think they are for believing in God, calling them names, etc.


Patience is indeed a virtue.

[Sulawesi]

43. As an atheist, that entire forum offended me...

Who says compassion, ethics, morality, abortion, stem cells etc. are the providence of religion? Call it a religious forum not a compassion forum, and don't insinuate that I need to believe in god to be moral, or that the science of stem cells should be held hostage to someone that things a 32 cell blastocyst has an immortal soul.

[cliffordu]

45. I agree with everything you say, Sulawesi -

But, as a recovering drunk, I have to have a "higher power" so I claim a spirituality of --sorts--.....

But that doesn't automatically make me King Kong, spiritually speaking, in fact, it makes me suspect almost every impulse I have to teach or prosthelytize, because as a drunk I am almost always running one little scam or other.. ....If there truly is a God, I ain't worthy, but at least I know it.

In fact, to agree with you further, "compassion, ethics, morality" are NOT the providence of religion as most of it is practiced today. It's a pyramid scheme. Or a land grab like the Catholic Church was for centuries.



I hope you're happy. I'm probably going to hell for sure, now...


:patriot:

[FatDave]

64. The nature of the universe can be very spiritual

I love the idea that we cling to an insignificant speck of dust huddling near one of the countless billions of burning embers that's hurtling through space from a grand explosion at the beginning of time.

Yet from the chaos comes order.

That's my religion.

(edit for subject/verb agreement)

[Sulawesi]

77. Nice note.

I am happy indeed.

curious, why does being a recovering drunk require a higher power?

[stillcool]

51. As a multi-faith, ahteist, agnostic nation...

I have no problem with people's faith, I have a serious problem with pimping religion. If this country weren't so morally, spiritually, and financially bankrupt, maybe we could have an 'enlightened' discussion on what constitutes belief, faith, humanity, and it's relation to the common good. Instead we're stuck on Fear and Jesus.

[cliffordu]

55. DING DING DING We have a winner!!!

That's exactly it!

:patriot:

[Sulawesi]

79. I agree...

meanwhile millions die of AIDs in Africa because the Catholic Church thinks it is more important to retain their stance on Birth Control and oppose the use of condoms. The leaders of our country think their minister is a valid source of information on science, and think that prayer works.

I do have a problem with Faith. Faith is the belief in something despite evidence to the contrary, and it opposes reason.

[stillcool]

82. that's not true...

.. who am I, why am I here, what does it mean? What I choose to believe about life, and where I place my faith is the most personal possession...the only possession I have...and it is not up for discussion.

[Sulawesi]

85. Those are all good questions...

...you may even have faith in God about some truth or the meaning of life, but it is not based on your reason or observation. That is what I was saying. The fact that you take it on faith means that you believe in it. If you believed what you believed based on observation, or rational judgement, you would not need faith at all. Faith is for the unseen, unprovable explanation.

[stillcool]

87. that's not true..

My faith is most definitely based on my reason...my intellect..and my observations of life, of people, of humanity. That is what my faith is all about. That which I cling to. That we are all teachers and students making our way through this life. That the most horrendous things that can happen in life people survive, and so can I. What can that be but faith?

[ginnyinWI]

80. as an atheist, that forum did not offend me.

Obama made it clear that Christians, Muslims. Buddhists, and Atheists share common values, and those are what we should bring to government, not each one's particular religious creed. This is exactly the right stance to take--talk about common values, not where they are generated from.

I'm not offended that some people have religions, as long as they don't stick them into government.

[Sulawesi]

81. Obama did not offend me...

...it offended me that people equate compassion or morality with religion. It would be just as incongruous to have the postal workers union sponsor a culinary forum.

[Hippo_Tron]

95. I'm pretty agnostic and wasn't really offended by the forum, but...

I thought it was a monumental waste of time to be asking candidates dumb questions like "Does god want you to be President?"

[PBS Poll-435]

49. This is how I know it is not over.

It is not over.

See you 4/22

[cliffordu]

56. Let me know when the goalposts move to Puerto Rico, M'kay?

:headbang:

[PBS Poll-435]

60. I will.

Thanks!

[JBoy]

59. Looking forward to that 20+ point win that Hillary needs, just to stay alive.

Anything less than that is a loss.

[thoughtcrime1984]

50. It is so much easier to sound sincere

when you ARE! That's what drew me to Obama years ago, he comes across as believable and authentic.

[Scurrilous]

52. Great post.

K & R :thumbsup:

[cliffordu]

57. Why Thanks!!

:hi:

[liberaldem4ever]

68. k & r!! n/t

[RememberWellstone]

69. There you have it, more bullshiite

She's not going anywhere, so clean your hands off and quite dreaming, it ain't gonna happen.

[Catherina]

70. When he got a standing ovation after talking about cutting poverty

and expanding programs like the AIDS and Global Warming work they do, that's when I knew he had it. Not one single person was sitting down after he was done. He united with them on goals to help society, not on silly stuff like "in how many days was the world created and will you keep condoms out of school".

He was great.

[Unbowed]

73. People are really getting sick of her antics.

All the crap she's pulled is making people really dislike her. When people groan at something she says or boo her outright, I'd say it's time for Hillary Clinton to go.

Hit the road Hill and "don't you come back no more, no more."

[2rth2pwr]

74. Kicking to keep this near the top for the next couple of days.

[ima_sinnic]

84. I'm an atheist, without much use for religion, except to tolerate those who believe in it

--I caught the last hour or so, when it was Barack by himself taking questions and I thought he was fantastic. He even included atheists in one of his answers. He came across as sincere, thoughtful, not at all pandering. It was obvious that people of every faith got a good feeling from him. The standing ovations were well deserved. Everybody was indeed made to feel united and inspired. The warm, fuzzy feeling has even stayed with me today. The country desperately needs Barack Obama, who is in such sharp contrast to the bumbling, outrageous buffoon currently squatting in the WH--the torturer, war criminal, criminally negligent, totally incompetent pretender--and also to the very ordinary, same old same old, tired and used up, dog eat dog 24/7 politico molehillary.

[Sulawesi]

86. I like Obama, I tolerate people that are religious because they are good people...

...but religion is not the reason they are good people.

[2rth2pwr]

88. Kick for the Tuesday crowd to evaluate.

[2rth2pwr]

89. k&r

[2rth2pwr]

90. Kicking for let it sink

[2rth2pwr]

91. k

[2rth2pwr]

92. Special edition late night debate kick.

[2rth2pwr]

93. By the way, what does a Muslim look like?

[Major Hogwash]

94. This was over when Obama won 11 straight primaries in a row!

Team Hillary had no fucking clue that Obama was still going to be in the race after February 5th.

They used the stupid, assinine, out-dated, simplistic "17-state strategy" that the DLC thinks is so damn invincible.

Now, they are on their hands and knees and praying for votes in states they have NEVER ever visited - states that "didn't count" before February 5th - like Montana and South Dakota to name a few.

Bubba even went to Puerto Rico last week to see what her future looked liked there.
Puerto Rico votes on June 1st - Bubba bought some more rum, Hillary's going to need it - she doesn't stand a chance in Puerto Rico.

In North Carolina - Obama is ahead by 35 points+ and will build on that lead.
In Indiana - Obama is ahead by 20 points and will build on that lead.
They both vote in less than 3 weeks.

What's her excuse going to be for staying in the race after she gets beat there?


So, Pennsylvania looks like it is not only the last "big" state that votes during this primary, but the last state that Hillary will have a chance of winning.

They are asking Obama to do the impossible - wrap up the nomination WITHOUT a single delegate from Michigan or Florida.

And he is just about to do it!

[DemBones DemBones]

101. Major Hogwash indeed. Winning caucuses and primaries in red states

means nothing in the general election, when those states will go for McCain.

HRC can beat McCain, Obama can't.

What good does it do to have a nominee you think is great if he loses?

[Major Hogwash]

102. What are you talking about?

Do you really think that any Democrat is not going to vote for Obama when he is the nominee?

You don't even make sense anymore.

[OzarkDem]

96. If you watched audience feedback

You would know Obama didn't do very well on most questions, Clinton did better.

[2rth2pwr]

97. {yawn}

kick

[HCE SuiGeneris]

106. You really don't get it do you?

All your bullshit has finally caught up with you.

Ignored and irrelevant... might be why you are challenged to find a response.

[kwenu]

108. I thought you were going to say you heard a rather healthy vocalist warming up her vocal chords.