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Tarc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-14-08 01:30 PM
Original message
The more Penn. voters see of Obama, the less they like
April 14, 2008 - Pennsylvania Democratic Primary Preference



Hillary Clinton leads Barack Obama 48% to 44% among men (45% of likely Democratic primary voters). Among women, Clinton leads 64% to 31%.

Clinton leads 64% to 29% among white voters (82% of likely Democratic primary voters). Obama leads 79% to 18% among African American voters (14% of likely Democratic primary voters).

Clinton leads 52% to 43% among voters age 18 to 49 (50% of likely Democratic primary voters) and Clinton leads 62% to 31% among voters age 50 and older.

10% of all likely Democratic primary voters say they would never vote for Hillary Clinton in the primary and 24% of likely Democratic primary voters say they would never vote for Barack Obama in the primary.

23% of likely Democratic primary voters say that excessive exposure to Obama's advertising is causing them to support Clinton.


American Research Group


That's a serious downward trend there. After Mr. Bitter's latest debacle, I wonder how many of the early primary state voters are having a case of buyer's remorse right about now.
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DarienComp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-14-08 01:31 PM
Response to Original message
1. This is been posted at least twice already today.
Good job, though.
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anonymous171 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-14-08 01:31 PM
Response to Original message
2. And his national popularity has not gone down. Fail.
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Tarc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-14-08 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #2
17. "National popularity" ?
Wait, a few months back when Clinton starting to trail in delegates but still led the national polls, all the little Obamaniacs here harped on the point that national polls didn't matter.

Now when it is pointed out that Obama is sinking in an upcoming primary state, your marching orders are now to tout the "national popularity" that Obama may be leading?


Ahh, hypocrisy. Not just fer breakfast anymore.
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Texas Hill Country Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-14-08 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #17
38. are there national polls that include yesterday? I know one was released today with old data tho
Edited on Mon Apr-14-08 03:46 PM by Texas Hill Country
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Alter Ego Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-14-08 01:33 PM
Response to Original message
3. I think it's about time for another shipment of fail to come through.
How come every time one of ARRGGGGHHHH's polls that gives Hillary a ridiculously huge lead in a state is posted somewhere else it ends up here 50 times over?
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Waya Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-14-08 01:33 PM
Response to Original message
4. Odd........
.....The part of PA where I live understands perfectly what Obama said and what Clinton is trying to do. So far, I haven't come across one person who will change their vote to Hillary.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-14-08 01:33 PM
Response to Original message
5. There's something wrong with that poll
either it was wrong last week or this week or both. As it's ARG it's probably both. We'll just have to wait and see.
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hisownpetard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-14-08 01:34 PM
Response to Original message
6. Dream on.
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MethuenProgressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-14-08 01:35 PM
Response to Original message
7. From 11 back - to 20 behind? No wonder he's bitter.
Edited on Mon Apr-14-08 01:38 PM by MethuenProgressive
And Michelle so eager to measure the Oval Office for new drapes...
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hisownpetard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-14-08 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. "eagar"? Egads.
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MethuenProgressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-14-08 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. I gave up on DU's spellchecker long ago,
I'm from Maine, and spell phonetically - so nuddin evah come out carect.
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MattBaggins Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-14-08 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #7
18. Maybe Michelle
can talk to the Clintons and borrow the silverware Hillary stole last time around.

Can we get any sillier here?
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MethuenProgressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-14-08 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #18
25. RW Smear alert! RW Smear Alert!
Dick Morris lied. FOX News lied. Stop supporting McCain.
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Bensthename Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-14-08 01:36 PM
Response to Original message
8. He was down 26 points last month.. Now down by 5.. I think you are bitter and wrong.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-14-08 01:37 PM
Response to Original message
10. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
AX10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-14-08 01:37 PM
Response to Original message
11. So they don't like his advertising spots.
"23% of likely Democratic primary voters say that excessive exposure to Obama's advertising is causing them to support Clinton."

Good to see that Pennsylvanians have good sense! :kick:
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Norrin Radd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-14-08 01:42 PM
Response to Original message
13. Oh, yeah. One misconstrued and MSM spun comment taken out of
context is waaaaaay more important than the issues. :sarcasm: :eyes:

I was born in Pennsylvania, moved down South at the age of six and grew up in Atlanta, moved back to Penna by my father while I wasin high school, and got stuck in a small town there for most of the 90's; verily did it suck there. Bitter doesn't even begin to describe it. I imagine it's been much worse there under the bush regime.

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MethuenProgressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-14-08 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. Do you cling to your anti-immigrant sentiment out of bitterness?
Lord Barack says that's what you peasants do.
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Norrin Radd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-14-08 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #16
39. Not as tightly as your cling to your straw man argument,
Edited on Mon Apr-14-08 04:09 PM by Progs Rock
and random, unfriendly tone. I've never posted anything that would warrant such a response from a supposed "fellow" DUer.
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Buzz Clik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-14-08 01:43 PM
Response to Original message
14. LOL! Well, that certainly is not consistent with any facts:
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-14-08 01:44 PM
Response to Original message
15. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
JBoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-14-08 01:46 PM
Response to Original message
19. I look forward to Hillary achieving this 20+ point margin in PA
Anything less is a catastrophic loss for her campaign.
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rucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-14-08 01:51 PM
Response to Original message
20. Why is this poll so different from the other polls going around? n/t
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Blue_Roses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-14-08 01:57 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. cause it's bullshit. Here is some info on the pollster:
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fjc Donating Member (700 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-14-08 02:27 PM
Response to Reply #23
33. Geez. And that poll is front page and capitalized on TPM.
Edited on Mon Apr-14-08 02:28 PM by fjc
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not_too_L8 Donating Member (757 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-14-08 01:54 PM
Response to Original message
21. 20 points in one week...
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Blue_Roses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-14-08 01:56 PM
Response to Original message
22. This poll is not credible. Here's some background how he comes up with
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TheDoorbellRang Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-14-08 01:58 PM
Response to Original message
24. But ARG shows them tied at 45-45 last week on April 5/6
So what's up with that not so little blip in your statistics?

Or is ARG hedging its bets like they did in WI?

ARG* 02/17 - 02/18 600 LV 52 42 Obama +10.0
ARG* 02/15 - 02/16 600 LV 43 49 Clinton +6.0

Obama won on 2/19 in WI 58.1-40.7% Obama +17.4
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Blue_Roses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-14-08 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #24
31. Was it American Research Group or America's Research Group?
Edited on Mon Apr-14-08 02:12 PM by Blue_Roses
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TheDoorbellRang Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-14-08 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #31
36. Now that's very interesting. I didn't know there were two
You should do an OP on this.

I just doublechecked the polls I posted. They were both American Research Group.
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-14-08 02:00 PM
Response to Original message
26. The more people understand math, the more obvious Obama's nomination is.
Nothing will change.
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Bensthename Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-14-08 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. Yup, Hillary is just prolonging her inevitable loss.
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-14-08 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. Everyone is waiting for her to come to acceptance.
Sad.
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azmouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-14-08 02:02 PM
Response to Original message
27. No remorse here.
And I'm looking forward to voting for Obama again in Nov.

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AZBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-14-08 02:03 PM
Response to Original message
29. American Research Group? Let's find out a little bit more about them....
Synopsis for those who don't want to read everything below or at the link:
  • Their polls are historically way off from the actual results.
  • They only have 16 employees - how unbiased and reliable can that make them?
  • The owner, Dick Bennett, hides behind an alias of La Fell Bennett. Why is he hiding?
  • They only poll landlines, leaving out the thousands with only cell phones or those who simply aren't home when they call. This also biases their polls, given that the majority of people with just cell phones and not land lines are young - and seeing how much the young vote is in play in this election, this fact alone puts any ARG poll in doubt.
  • Bennett has tried to hide cash from his father's estate, cash that should go to the care of his invalid mother. What kind of scruples does he have and how can we trust what he says?

I'm not putting much trust in ARG's results on anything, no matter who they say is pulling ahead.



With some interest in how the polls work, and some of the oddities thereof, I decided to take a look at a small group that sees some oddities in their polling: American Research Group. Not to be confused with America's Research Group, a whole different organization.

One of my first conclusions is that ARG is looking to be the true anonymous polling group! Really, they have very little in the way of public profile, and yet get their polls to be highly visible. So, when seeing things like that I do a bit of searching, and with names not coming up at their web site or any 'About Us' sort of deal, that means really searching. So the best place to start is: WHOIS domain name lookup. In this case I used Network Solutions looking for ARG and here is what I come up with (and these are public records):

Registrant:
American Research Group
814 Elm Street
Manchester, NH 03101
US

Domain Name: AMERICANRESEARCHGROUP.COM

Administrative Contact :
Bennett, L
arginc@AOL.COM
814 ELM ST
MANCHESTER, NH 03101
US
Phone: +1 603 624 4081
Fax: +1 603 627 1746

Technical Contact :
American Research Group
arginc@AOL.COM
814 Elm Street
Manchester, NH 03101
US
Phone: +1 603 624 4081
Fax: 999 999 9999

Record expires on 13-Apr-2012
Record created on 13-Apr-1999
Database last updated on 15-Dec-2007

Current Registrar: NETWORK SOLUTIONS, LLC.
IP Address: 216.177.22.1 (ARIN & RIPE IP search)
IP Location: US(UNITED STATES)-NEW HAMPSHIRE-NASHUA
Record Type: Domain Name
Server Type: Apache 2
Lock Status: clientTransferProhibited
Web Site Status: Active
DMOZ no listings
Y! Directory: see listings
Web Site Title: American Research Group
Meta Keywords: American Research Group, american research group, ARG, arg, ARG polls, arg polls, marketing research, polling, political polling, Dick Bennett, dick bennett, presidential polls, Presidential Polls, New Hampshire Poll, new hampshire poll, NH Poll, nh poll
Secure: No
E-commerce: No
Traffic Ranking: 4
Data as of: 12-Jul-2006


Next up is the listing at MANTA on ARG and here is what we get:

American Research Group Inc
814 Elm St, Manchester, NH 03101-2130, United States (Map) (Add Company Info)
Phone: (603) 624-4081
SIC:Commercial Economic, Sociological, and Educational Research
Line of Business:Marketing Research

Detailed American Research Group Inc Company Profile
This company profile is for the private company American Research Group Inc, located in Manchester, NH. American Research Group Inc's line of business is marketing research.

Company Profile: American Research Group Inc

Year Started:1985
State of Incorporation:N/A
URL:N/A
Location Type:Single Location
Stock Symbol:N/A
Stock Exchange:N/A
Also Does Business As:N/A
NAICS:N/A
SIC #Code: View Details
Est. Annual Sales: View Details
Est. Employees:16
Est. Employees at Location:16
Contact Name:La Fell Bennett
Contact Title: President And Treasurer
Data above provided by D&B.

And that clears it up, the man leading this is La Fell Bennett, and as we will see later aka: Dick Bennett.

Total number of employees: 16?


So, needing to do some deeper background on individuals I decided its high time to look at where some of the polling problems come from, especially with regards to ARG. Luckily the New Hampshire Business Review has a couple of snippets from Dick Bennett on what his group sees, so those are worth extracting. First up is from 11 MAY 2007:

Dick Bennett: The New Hampshire pollster tells the Los Angeles Times, that Republicans are so disgruntled in the waning years of the Bush administration that he’s finding it difficult getting GOP voters to participate in surveys.
Well that would present a problem now, wouldn't it? People not wanting to participate in surveys...

Moving along to NHBR on 28 SEP 2007 we see this:

Dick Bennett: The Manchester-based pollster defends the omission of cell phone users in polling, saying that the people without landlines – mostly young people – “don’t vote.”
Yes, the 'cellphone' blind spot phenomena, where those without a land line don't get called. I have some bad news for Mr. Bennett on that - a lot of folks have had it with landlines and are shifting over to a cellphone only lifestyle. He might want to look into that.

Finally, to remind folks of how good ARG does, here is an article from the WaPo in 2004 looking back a bit at the 2000 race:

New Hampshire: Graveyard of Pollsters

By Richard Morin and Claudia Deane
Washington Post Staff Writers
Friday, January 23, 2004; 7:55 AM

<..>

In 2000, the headline on an AP day-before-the-primary story was "Nearing the N.H. finish line; Polls declare GOP dead heat. . . . " John McCain then went on to beat George W. Bush by 18 percentage points.

The New Hampshire-based American Research Group's tracking poll ended up buried deepest in the snow bank: They had Bush winning by two the day before the primary, merely 20 points off the mark. On the Democratic side, the losing pollster at least got the winner right: The Quinnipiac poll predicted Gore would win by 17 percentage points, but he actually won by four.

It was the second debacle for ARG in as many New Hampshire Republican primaries. The day before the 1996 contest, ARG's Dick Bennett told the Union Leader, "It looks like Dole's going to win," based on the Kansan's seven point advantage in their tracking poll. He didn't, losing to Pat Buchanan by a single percentage point.


They actually did much better in 2004, missing the actual results for top spot by only 4%. The question is: luck or changed methodology? And with the problems they are seeing this year on R side, plus the 'non-voting cell phone users' concept, which would tend to skew for Obama on the D side, just how reliable is ARG?


There appears to be an interesting factor in this with Lane's Case which is a review of a lawyer's work when he became aware of a client's misrepresentation, to the lawyer, about a case and the lawyer then letting those who had brought suit know that this was the case. The case involves the death of Robert Bennett in an car accident and the ensuing mental deterioration of his wife, Jane Bennett, and the executor of his estate Lafell D. Bennett (Dick Bennett). During the time that Jane was deteriorating, Dick Bennett gave two different accountings of funds available to care for her:

The guardianship proceedings were terminated when, in March 1996, Jane Bennett became very ill and the parties agreed, out of necessity, to place her in a Keene nursing home. Additionally, Dick Bennett agreed to provide his sisters an accounting of the trust assets. The accounting indicated that, as of April 30, 1996, the fund balance was merely $65,917, compared with the almost $309,000 balance reported a half-year earlier. The sisters were suspicious and asked Attorney Little to investigate.

There is further examination of the part of lawyers in such things in Hinshaw & Culbertson but that does not address the activity of Dick Bennett in this case (which may be a criminal matter). As I am unaware of any criminal matter taken up in this case, it is left up to the individual, knowing what has gone on, to decide for themselves a few things:

1) Given Mr. Bennett's attempt to hide a substantial amount of cash from his deceased father's estate that should have been used for the care of his mother, is this sort of individual trustworthy as a head of a polling organization?

2) Given the facts in (1) and the small size of the company (16 people) what sort of influence does Mr. Bennett have within his company?

3) Given the facts in (1) and the problems Mr. Bennett himself cites in polling, is there any conflict between his activities and the problems in the polling data?

For an organization that is widely described as 'non-partisan' that should not inherently mean: ethical and above-board. There is something relatively disturbing in having such a small company given such wide credence having such an individual capable of lying to his siblings in the case of his deceased father and mentally incapacitated mother that go unquestioned.


Until that time, then, I can no longer consider polling done by an organization headed by such an individual to be reputable: the ethical questions of being able to perform such activities for a private trust within his family puts a dark shadow over his public trust of running a non-partisan organization. If he had put someone else in to head up the company while holding financial interest, but taking his hands off day-to-day affairs, I would consider that an ethical act so as to not bring his private problems into the public arena. As it stands I find such activity to be distasteful and harming to his reputation and that of such a small, private concern that he runs.


http://ajacksonian.blogspot.com/2007/12/problem-with-american-research-group.html
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Tarc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-14-08 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #29
32. Summation: AZBlue can't attack the message, so he attacks the messenger
Right on, chief.
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fjc Donating Member (700 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-14-08 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #32
34. What messenger? There's no one home there.
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AZBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-14-08 02:30 PM
Response to Reply #32
35. You missed the point completely, huh?
Way to go, "chief"!
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EndElectoral Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-14-08 03:44 PM
Response to Original message
37. I'm a PA voter, and his bitter comments actually are why I have decided to vote for him,
Edited on Mon Apr-14-08 03:45 PM by EndElectoral
Kuccinich, Edwards all these guys have talked about the loss of jobs, the frustration of the poor. I've been on the fence, but I want a guy who knows workers are hurting and bitter about it. Not some Republican cheerleading message of just hang in there and follow the yellow brick road.
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