DU was started because of the 2000 election fraud -which Hillary denied and Obama admitted.

[Bonobo]

Hillary blamed Gore for losing because he came off as "too elite" like Obama.

Obama, on the other hand, came right out and said, unasked, that it was his belief that Gore won the election.

There really isn't much more to say than that.

The very reason for the existence of DU was dismissed last night by Hillary Clinton, who threw Gore under the bus.

Obama has promised him a place in his administration and admitted there was a fraudulent election.

Hillary supporters: Spin it any way you like. You can't change those facts.

[krawhitham]

1. K&R

[anonymous171]

2. K&R

:kick:

[KAZ]

3. I'd like an answer from Skinner on this. It was quite a moment last night.

[stop the bleeding]

31. excuse me,

could you tell me what happened last night in short, I missed it, or could you tell me what to search?

Thank you in advance.
:beer:

[XemaSab]

36. During the compassion forum he was asked a question about climate change

and he slipped in "By the way, I think Gore won," just totally offhand.

You'll find it in the video forum. It was AWESOME.

[TheDoorbellRang]

37. It was on the "Compassion Forum" on CNN last nite

In a nutshell, Hillary said that Dems lost in 2000 and 2004 because Gore and Kerry were perceived as "elistists." She was explaining why Obama's "elitism" was so terrible, BTW.

When Obama was on in the second half, he had finished making his point about something and then turned and grinned at the audience and said, "By the way, I think Al Gore won."

[stop the bleeding]

41. Thanks XemaSab and TheDoorbellRang

it sounds like Obama gave HRC a stiff uppercut btw.

:beer:

[hisownpetard]

88. In essence, she was saying that we "lost" for a reason, and the fault lies with the candidate(s)

we chose - not because the election was stolen.

WHY does this woman have a (D) after her name?
This is so outrageous, and it has got to stop.

"Hanoi Hillary." STFU.

[bobbolink]

91. There's no "thinking" about it... the GAO said Gore won.

It was in the papers. :)

He shouldn't equivocate on that.

It's a fact, not a thought.

[Major Hogwash]

117. Yup.

It was a fact!

[DJ13]

4. K&R

:kick:

[Genevieve]

5. K and r /nt

[AtomicKitten]

6. Hillary has evolved into a de facto Republican.

She has become the opposition. She is arguing GOP talking points.

It is really quite breathtaking in a nauseating yet alarming way.

[Bonobo]

8. And the Hil supporters here vomited all over my first OP asking them to come back to the light.

So sad.

I tried.

[KAZ]

11. Let's give it some time. Can't give up on DU.

Though I'm pretty disappointed with the admins.

[AtomicKitten]

30. You know that "bitterness" thing they have going on?

A really bizarre trend of her campaign has been to accuse her opponent of what she and in this case they are/are doing. There is a decent data base on that particular campaign move. (On edit: It is my opinion there is an underlying psychological bent to it and it's not entirely tactical.)

They know she can't win short of a superdelegate coup d'etat and the saner ones know deep down inside that that has about 0.5% chance of happening, repeatedly trying to hamstring him has only resulted in him brushing it off with a smile on his face, sometimes even gaining in he polls, and that he was always a formidable opponent that she never saw coming because she was blinded by hubris and a sense of entitlement - and they're pissed off.

They are bitter.

But you did try to be open, and you get a high-five from me. It's a good move.

:hi:

[mhoran]

92. That says it all...

"...she was blinded by hubris and a sense of entitlement - and they're pissed off. They are bitter."

They react as if the nomination was already hers and now Obama's trying to steal it. Hence the righteous indignation.

[Zhade]

111. React as if? They've SAID THOSE WORDS. I've read them.

Granted, only a couple of the really delusional hilliar-is-44 people have said it.

[AtomicKitten]

131. David Corn has reported those grumblings and worse. "Uppity" a common theme.

[ut oh]

93. It's called projection

Accuse your opponent of doing what you're actually doing...

Very common Repub tactic...

[AtomicKitten]

130. that's the psych bent it resembles, it's just peculiar to see it used as a campaign tactic

[Zhade]

110. They're locked into supporting a proven liar. Few have had the courage to admit they were suckered.

Those who have are awesome - it takes a lot of honesty to break free of self-delusion.

[Baby Snooks]

104. She's a Republicrat

One of many. DINOs and RINOs. Republicrats. Selling out the American people to oligarchy. By the corporation, for the corporation. And of late, by the crooks, for the crooks.

[KAZ]

7. ..

[maddiejoan]

9. Where is she wrong?

""We had two very good men, and men of faith, run for president in 2000 and 2004," she said. "Large segments of the electorate concluded that they did not really understand, or relate to, or respect their ways of life."

seriously -- where?

[Bonobo]

12. There was a lot more there than that quote.

[maddiejoan]

13. I'm having trouble locating it

I'd be happy to read it, if you have more luck.

[Bonobo]

15. You'll be the first one to know if I find it, I promise.

[maddiejoan]

17. Thanks!

I'm being sincere.

[Bonobo]

20. I found it, but you will deny what she was clearly implying in my eyes. Here:

CLINTON: Well, I'm going to let Senator Obama speak for himself. But from my perspective, the characterization of people in a way that really seemed to be elitist and out of touch is something that we have to overcome.

You know, the Democratic Party, to be very blunt about it, has been viewed as a party that didn't understand and respect the values and the way of life of so many of our fellow Americans.

And I think it's important that we make clear that we believe people are people of faith because it is part of their whole being; it is what gives them meaning in life, through good times and bad times. It is there as a spur, an anchor, to center one in the storms, but also to guide one forward in the day-to-day living that is part of everyone's journey.

And, you know, when we think about the legitimate concerns that people have about trade or immigration, those are problems to be solved. And that's what I think we should be focused on.

But I am very confident that, as we move forward tonight and beyond, people will get a chance to get to know each of us a little better, and that's really what I want to talk about. I will leave it to Senator Obama to speak for himself; he does an excellent job of that.

And I will speak for myself on what my faith journey is and what, you know, leads me to this chair here tonight.

BROWN: But, Senator, you've been out there on the stump attacking him pretty aggressively over this. And his response has been -- and he said it pretty bluntly tonight -- shame on you. You know that he is a man of faith. This is what he's saying. And to suggest that he is demeaning religion is you playing politics. CLINTON: Well, he will have to speak for himself and provide his own explanation. But I do think it raises a lot of concerns and we've seen that exhibited in the last several days by people here in Pennsylvania, in Indiana where I was yesterday, and elsewhere, because it did seem so much in-line with what often we are charged with.

Someone goes to a closed-door fund-raiser in San Francisco and makes comments that do seem elitist, out of touch and, frankly, patronizing. That has nothing to do with him being a good man or a man of faith.

We had two very good men and men of faith run for president in 2000 and 2004. But large segments of the electorate concluded that they did not really understand or relate to or frankly respect their ways of life.

And I think that is an issue for voters, as I've heard today from people I visited in Scranton and elsewhere. So this is a legitimate political issue. And there are some issues that are not. But this one is.

[maddiejoan]

24. Oh.

I found that before.

Don't see where Hillary is wrong though.

Don't even see where she said "Gore lost".

:shrug:

[Bonobo]

26. Her whole diatribe was drawing a direct parallel between Obama's elitism and why we lost in '00 and

'04. Both are both part of the Democratic party that loses elections against Republicans because of the way they appear as elites. She weaves Gore and Obama together in a way that they can hardly be seperated.

On and on she goes on to explain why WE LOST THE ELECTION. It's aall due to the very reason that she says Obama will lose. Namely that he is too much of an elitist and not a regular American like her. Not a single word about election shenanigans.

But Obama apparently had no such trouble telling what many of us see as the SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT TRUTH IN THE LAST 8 YEARS -THAT HERE IN AMERICA, A PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION WAS STOLEN.

[maddiejoan]

33. We DID lose the election in 00, and 04

whether fairly or NOT.

The fact is both Kerry and Gore won by such slim measures, that the elections were "stealable".

Do you want a repeat of that?

I don't.

[im10ashus]

60. How many threads can you take over with your same point.

SO you don't think he can win in November. Guess what? I don't think SHE can win. BUT I will vote for her IF she gets the nomination. What about you? Would YOU vote for Obama?

[maddiejoan]

61. I've said so many times

Of course I'll vote for Obama.

I'll still think of him as a less good choice for President than Clinton though.

[im10ashus]

63. Then we can agree to disagree.

She has been triangulating since 2000 and I can't stand her. Flag burning amendment anyone?

BUT, if she miraculously gets the nomination, I will vote for her.

[maddiejoan]

65. I don't find her any more triangulating than Obama

Nor do I find triangulating to gain office a bad thing for a Democratic candidate to do.

[Heathen57]

118. IMO, Triangulation is basically weighing

the options to figure out how best to advance yourself politically. That is very elitist and not at all what the nation needs now. It causes a person to throw people under the bus and a tendency to forget what it is all about.

Triangulation on her political career is what brought Hillary to vote for the IWR. It is what caused her to vote so often against what is good for the citizens, but was better for her aspirations for the POTUS.

That is why Hillary is losing the primary. In spite of the huge lead she had and all the name recognition, people have seen how she is in the race for her and Bill, not for those who are voting for her.

[paulk]

105. she voted against the flag burning amendment

just sayin'....

[im10ashus]

116. So she was before it before she was against it?

Or is it the other way around? Who can tell with her?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/12/14/AR2005121401887.html

http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/latestnews/index.php?id=5078

:shrug:

She sponsored the damn thing. Just sayin'...

[paulk]

125. you don't know what you're talking about

do you know what a constitutional amendment is?

just askin'...

[Raster]

98. No. That is not the case. Selection 2000 was decided by a brutally partisan SCOTUS.

The News Consortium found that if all the votes were fairly counted, GORE WON! The GAO concluded that GORE WON! Period. And once you factor in the shady rethuglican electoral tricks, it becomes QUITE evident that Gore won by even a much higher margin than previously thought. And each and every time ANY OF US give in to the rationale du jour why a lawfully and legally elected President Gore was prevented from ascending to 1600, we enable those that stole democracy from us and open the door to yet another rethuglican coup d' etat. Hello 2004!

That said, if Hillary Clinton is the Democratic nominee--and I sincerely hope SHE IS NOT--than I will do whatever is necessary to ensure she is fairly elected. One thing I will not do, however, is perpetuate the meme that we should elect Senator Clinton because she is the most palatable Democratic nominee and has the best chance of winning and resounds best with heartland America. I do NOT believe that is true. And further, I grow increasingly wary of the perceived Clinton attitude that HRC is somehow entitled to the Presidency.

[Uncle Joe]

99. Hillary Clinton never said 2000 was stolen or that Al Gore won

and ultimately that's the fundamental truth of her statement. Al Gore beat Bush by over a half a million counted votes, not to mention the tens of thousands of votes wrongly purged in Florida as felons, a partisan Supreme Court making a ruling that would never set precedent, etc. etc.

Not to mention a hostile corporate media; resentful because Al Gore did in indeed work to empower the people when he championed opening the Internet. For what's it worth, this is the opposite of elitism and if Hillary Clinton can't recognize that travesty, I'll have nothing to do with her.

Hillary Clinton's very own selfish actions in 2000 only served to help Bush to power as she traveled across country to an Al Gore fundraiser in California to compete for precious dollars, while she was only running a statewide race in New York, meanwhile Bush and the neocons were setting records raising money.

If the race in 2000 was in fact stolen, logic dictates there wasn't an election, there was only a coup and apparently Hillary Clinton can't recognize that anymore than she can recognize running from sniper fire versus receiving a greeting from a little girl.

So in short we didn't lose the election of 2000 because there wasn't an election.

[Zhade]

113. No, we did not lose in '00. Learn some fucking history.

If you don't know the facts of the 2000 Coup, why are you even on this website?

[maddiejoan]

122. Read what I wrote

and we did LOSE.

The election was stolen from us --That's a LOSS.

[Bonobo]

38. Nope, that is why the whole 51/49 type of candidate is no good, you know.

We need new blood brought INTO the party to upset this ill-gotten balance.

And how has this unnatural balance been achieved? By splitting voters with single issue wedge issues, like guns and religion (sound familiar? Someone else was making this point...)

Clinton will get the same voters Gore and Kerry got. Same result.

Obama is our chance to push the borders back.

But the thing that mostly gets me about Hil is that I think she AGREES with Obama on Bitter-Gate but her willingness to throw away what she really thinks for political gain is part of a pattern I have seen in her for years.

[yardwork]

100. I agree with the points you're making here, but it's a little different than your OP.

Based on your OP, I'd thought that Hillary said that Gore and Kerry lost because they were elitest. When you get to the actual quote of what Hillary said, it wasn't that bad.

It's true that the Democratic Party has to fight a stereotype of being elitest and out of touch. It's ridiculous, too - since it's the Republican Party that is elitest. But that's the reality.

I don't like the way that Hillary is making an issue out of this, but she's in it to win.

[Name removed]

19. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DutchLiberal]

96. Because it's Republican spin!!!

[Zhade]

112. The part where she said Gore lost, which you conveniently left out.

Gore didn't lose. That's a matter of public record. The only reason he didn't take office was because the USSC illegally stopped the recount.

[DesertFlower]

10. K&R

that picture brings back all the memories.

[XemaSab]

14. A-fuckin'-men!

:patriot:

[shadowknows69]

16. Good point

[oasis]

18. Therefore: DU should immediately become an echo chamber for Obama.

Take heart my friend,it's getting there.:woohoo::beer::woohoo::beer:

[IsItJustMe]

75. I would be for that if I don't have to hear constant right wing talking points, and references to

right wing radio, talk, television, commentators, and the likes. Seems like there is no place sacred for a Democrat anymore.

[WillyT]

21. Big K & R !!!

:bounce::kick::bounce:

:yourock:

[kster]

22. Obama "By the way I think that Al Gore won" (VIDEO)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x118235

[Upton]

23. I have to admit I didn't know that

if that's the case, why are Clinton supporters, after last night, still here?

[Zachstar]

25. It is funny to see some Clinton supporters deny that Gore won in 2000

If you believe that gore lost in 2000? THEN WHY THE FUCK ARE YOU AT DU?

If I remember correctly DU was created as a protest site against the decision to overturn the will of the voters. To protest the crimes the led to the destructive presidency to Bush.

Spin it all you want but that is the very spirit of DU.

[kster]

27. A LAYMAN'S GUIDE TO THE SUPREME COURT DECISION IN BUSH V. GORE by Mark H. Levine, Attorney at Law.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x500215

[knixphan]

28. Amen, baby.

[cbayer]

29. She didn't deny anything, she merely pointed out one of the reasons they lost.

Her statement, in its entirety, is hard to argue with. The electorate want someone they feel relates to them, someone they would feel comfortable having a beer with. You may not like it, but that's the way it is. Obama can make that link if he wants to. This was a mistake and he needs to correct it.

I do believe the election in 2000 was stolen and that Gore should have won. Had it been closer, they never could have stolen it. It was appalling in how close it was. Looking back to see where we went wrong and how we can prevent it from happening again is not throwing anyone under the bus.

[WolverineDG]

35. THEY DIDN'T LOSE

Get it through your head: Florida was STOLEN in 2000, Ohio in 2004. Gore & Kerry WON.

dg

[cbayer]

42. Wish that they had.

I said the elections were stolen. Sadly, winning is determined by who gets the seat. Did Bush get it fairly? No. Was the whole corrupt system put in play to give it to him? Yes. But he's been sitting in it for over seven years.

I will point out again that had the difference in the votes been greater, the elections would have been much harder to steal. There is no reason not to look back and see what we can do to prevent that difference from ever being so close that there is any chance of stealing the election.

[truedelphi]

135. Don't you mean, had it NOT been closer

rather than, had it been closer?

And Gore either won or he didn't. If he won but had it stolen, than every single time that Clinton or anyone starts saying, "the reason Gore lost was because of this or that" they are rteinforcing a false hood.

BTW my dad had never ever voted for a Dem for President until 2000, Then at the age of ninety, he pulled the lever for Gore. Precisely because Gore seemed like he was head and shoulders above the rest.

He thought that Bush looked like a dummy.

[O.M.B.inOhio]

32. I'm a little bitter about Obama's attitude regarding the 2004 election theft...

When Sen. Boxer challenged the electors of Ohio, Obama said he was "absolutely convinced" that the outcome in Ohio was legitimate and gave a long speech about how nice it is to be able to vote. A more openminded person would have been interested in the facts. Perhaps some senators could have said, "OK, we're open to accepting the results in Ohio. But first, let's figure out why there was a terror threat at an election office in Warren County, Ohio, which compelled the elections officials to kick out observers. Let's have some voting machines analyzed to determine why 99.9% of the "glitches" that occurred favored Mr. Bush...." and so on.

Now, this is a relatively minor quibble with an electrifying and highly capable candidate. Certainly Hillary did not stand up with Boxer, either. I voted for Obama i nthe primary, feeling that he is certainly the more electable candidate and the one who would make me again proud to be an American. But if this next election is stolen in ways similar to 2004, will he respond with another speech?

[Bonobo]

39. Good point, but...

My OP is what happened last night, not 4 years ago.

[cbayer]

49. This is a very good point.

Neither of them have really earned the right to have a fit about the election being stolen if they did nothing at the time to challenge it.

[Bonobo]

50. You don't have to earn the right to be outraged about that, pal.

It's your natural right as an American.

[cbayer]

62. You are correct.

My wording was bad. I should have said that neither can really take a superior position on this if neither actively tried to challenge it. Especially since they were in a position to effectively do so.

I'm glad we are pals. :hi:

[Bonobo]

69. Yup, pals!

Thanks for the nice reply.

[rox63]

95. Obama was just barely sworn into the Senate at that time

I'm sure he has seen and heard things since then that have changed his mind.

[O.M.B.inOhio]

133. Yes, so he should have listened to his senior colleague.

Don't get me wrong. I am very excited about his candidacy. Hillary has disappointed me far more than this one incident. If Al Gore announced that he was to be a candidate, I'd still support Obama. He has the qualities we need in a president to restore our standing in the world and make Americans of us again.

Still, it's a lousy way to start a Senate term: praising the glories of voting when many Ohioans' ballots remained uncounted and there was ample evidence of election fraud.

[Patsy Stone]

34. K&R

:thumbsup:

[Cha]

40. Nice touch with the Chad

Inspector, Bonobo! You Rock..:yourock: :bounce: :patriot: :kick: :party:

So grateful you pointed this out to our collective DU heart.

I didn't get here until 2002 but I wish I could have had a computer earlier 'cause I was a lonely nut case with only the NYT, cnn, msnbc, and the rest of the fascist outlets to let me know what was goin' on.

[goldcanyonaz]

43. What was Obama's position back in 2000 about the election?

[Bonobo]

45. I don't know. But I know what it was last night.

[KAZ]

46. BS

[Bonobo]

48. Peace.

[KAZ]

51. Try me. I finally figured you out.

Hapkido, 3.5 years. Dem, since '97. Voted for Bill in '96. Carter in '80., SC.

I can meet you any time to prove this.

[KAZ]

53. OK. Sometimes I get mad.

Peace.

[Bonobo]

54. Fine. Peace.

4 yrs. Shorin-ryu (Matsubayashi) Karate.

[KAZ]

56. But I can do amazing things with whatever "punch" you come up with.

"Soft rules".

Enough web-fighting? I thought we we're both on the same side. Frustrating, isn't it?

[goldcanyonaz]

58. Hey, you're cool.

Just wanted to say :hi:

Sucks fighting all the time, so peace!

[KAZ]

64. Thanks goldcanyonaz. I'm such an idiot sometimes.

[goldcanyonaz]

67. We all are. Present company included.

[KAZ]

57. Ignore my post. Detente!

[Bonobo]

59. Check PM.

[JVS]

44. Maybe it's time for DU to pick the right side, once and for all!

[Zachstar]

79. They can't do that.

They will lose their Neutral candidate status.

[Bonaparte]

47. Did Hillary readly say Gore?

I thought she just said he was viewed as an elitist, with which I disagree of course, but I can't recall saying Gore lost.

[depakid]

52. Gore WAS painted as elitist

and as a wonk who was out of touch with main street.

The corporate media ran with that and reinforced it, while at the same time treating Bush with kid gloves. And to some extent, the Gore 2000 campaign didn't help themselves with their choice of tactics (and more than Kerry's did) nor with their choice of language.

All the anti-hillary spin in world won't change history (at least, for those of us who lived through it, or care to study it).

What's worse though, is the nagging thought that we may well be on the verge of a repeat performance....

[Bonobo]

55. But in 2000, the Repukes painted Gore as an elite. In 2008, it is being done by a "Dem".

That is all true, but so is my OP. Obama spoke to us and let us know he knows it was stolen.

Hillary. did. not.

[berni_mccoy]

66. Why do they not see that simple point? They truly can't see how wrong she was/is.

[Bonobo]

71. They must be Egyptian...

Cause they're all...well you know the rest.

[depakid]

70. Had Bradley been a potent speaker during the primaries

and really put Gore to the test -had similarities and differences with the Clinton administration aired all out, there may have been a different dynamic during the general election.

And we wouldn't still be talking about 2000.

Impossible to say, of course.

[yellerpup]

101. Gore was painted as an elitist

because he was the best prepared candidate EVER to run for president. No one could touch him on bona fides, so they went after him on earth tones, elitism, and all kinds of crap he didn't deserve. What proves that he was the best man for the job is the Nobel Prize, the Oscar, the Grammy, etc., etc., etc. He is a brilliant, principled man who won the Presidency in 2000 and should be our president now in a more prosperous, more peaceful world. Obama is speaking what we all know. Senator Clinton shows Al Gore disrespect to say he "lost" the 2000 election. :kick: Bonobo, great thread.

[PVnRT]

97. You think Hillary won't be branded an elitist?

All Democrats are called elitist; using it to win a Democratic primary is idiotic.

[Emit]

68. OMG, that picture!

:rofl:

It caught my eye and I'm sorry to distract from your excellent observations, but, omg. priceless

[O.M.B.inOhio]

81. Obama is a Muslim... no a radical black Christian... no, he's Japanese! nt

[grytpype]

72. Thank you for pointing this out!

[Bonobo]

74. You're welcome.

[Ysabel]

73. yep (n/t)...

[FlyingSquirrel]

76. Oops

It's been over an hour since

:kick:

[Kurovski]

77. Kick. (nt)

[BzaDem]

78. I love how you are so passionate about counting votes in FL when you liked the candidate

but not when you don't.

[truedelphi]

86. It's about the rules going flippity flippity floppity

Not about trying to deprive the voters of having a say.

[BzaDem]

119. Guess what buddy -- not counting votes is depriving voters of having a say.

The rules allowed for a revote. Obama opposed it internally. It was nixed. End of story.

People on DU only support voting rights when it benefits their candidate.

[truedelphi]

134. It's my uinderstanding and

Please clarify if I am wrong, that these rules came from the Democratic National Committee to all of the states.

And then the Democratic leadership inside the two states of MI and FL decided to oppose the DNC's rules and go early. I can somewhat understand why in FL that would be desirable - after all, if the Republicans are having their primary on a given day, the Dems might want to go along with it. Doubling up the Primary also makes the holding of the Primary cheaper.

But you can't change the rules after they have been in play. Period. I don't see where any "insider" comment that Obama would make would make any difference. Believe me, he DOES NOT CARRY THE WEIGHT OF the Clintons when it comes to the national version of the Democratic National Committee. Hillary is the darling of the DLC, fer Pete's sake.

[Bonobo]

80. If you are a true Democrat, you should be outraged over Hillary's denial.

[AnarchoFreeThinker]

82. K&R

[meow mix]

83. K&R

:applause:

[Lerkfish]

84. that's not why DU still exists today

IMHO

[Bonobo]

85. Thanks for the opinion, but it doesn't change the fact that it is WHY it was created.

[Texas Hill Country]

87. you are sort of misrepresenting reality here.

[Name removed]

89. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Major Hogwash]

120. No, he's not.

He is comparing what Hillary said to the facts of the 2000 election.
Hillary said that Gore lost because he was an elitist, which is the same thing she is saying about Obama today.

Hillary is hillaryous.

She is such a liar.
"Ducking sniper fire" in Bosnia was an outright lie.
Something everyone knows you can't do in this day and age with the internet and YoutYube and all.

McCain doesn't stand a chance.
Except against a liar like Hillary.

[leaningprog]

90. The Clintons are the center of the universe, love them or be destroyed.

Bill Clinton reigned during a period when our economic house
of cards was rushing towards it's current brick wall of
credit limits, but with plenty of it still around. Indeed
the efforts of George Bush Senior did not pay off until
Bill Clinton took office, and he got full credit for it.

While Hillary manned her secretive bunker War Room and
gathered data on all foes, real and potential, regardless
of party. Her husband once again thought with his pecker,
obviously counting on Hillary to trash another bimbo for
him if it came to that to protect the Clinton dynasty.

Al Gore was given the smoking stump of a filthy coattail
for his loyalty to the Clintons to bring into his own
Presidential quest. It was a very inauspicious beginning
for his race.

The Clinton dynasty, instead moved on to New York, the real
source of media and money power in America, and furiously
began the next chapter in setting up a Clinton White House,
while also cashing in on the last one, and cashing in on
the inevitability of a future one, when they were back in
the catbird seat.

This is another case of a misogynist man, the strutting rooster
of Bill Clinton, who took a wife who had her own gifts and
talents, and turned her into a damage control and mercenary
destroyer of anything imagined to be a threat to the dynasty.
He used her desire to be a woman of legitimate candidacy to
make a guerrilla fighter subservient to his own ego and hubris.

She is still stuck on every other person, especially Obama
at the moment, being the source of her oppression. Sad.

[Kurovski]

132. Welcome to DU, leaningprog !

:hi: Thank you for a thought-provoking post.

[wowimthere]

94. Hillary... more inclined to cheat like Republicans do...

[pgh_dem]

102. As an Obama supporter who's really unhappy with Sen Clinton, I've got to say...

I remember an early primary debate, when there were a lot more people on the stage. Sen Clinton was asked if she had a problem with the White House being occupied by a Bush or a Clinton for 28 years. She joked in response along the lines of: "Well, I have a problem with the second Bush. I kind of thought the other guy won."

If anybody else remembers this in better detail, I think this thread would be well-served with a link to it.

Maybe I was dreaming...

Anyway, your other points in this thread stand. Nobody should be giving support to the 'elite' bullshit with regard to Al Gore without mentioning GOP election fraud. Just saying that the media called him elitist and he didn't get into the White House doesn't give any credibility to the thought that elitism cost him the White House. So, an explicit mention of election fraud notwithstanding, Sen Clinton should not have given support to that line of attack.

[Bonobo]

103. Well stated.

[sasquatch]

106. I see we did not forget our history, so we are likely to not repeat it

[L. Coyote]

107. I'm seeing Obama/Gore in my glass ball.

But hey, it's just a glass ball!

[democracy1st]

108. thanks

:kick:

[Zhade]

109. Seriously. Some DUers need to read the About section before they join a website.

The whole point of this place was to protest the 2000 Coup, and I cannot believe how many here deny or are ignorant of that fact.

[Raine]

114. Gore won the popular vote

so explain that one Hillary.

[Gman]

115. Had Gore carried Tennessee Florida wouldn't have mattered

There was no good reason for Gore to lose his home state. Gore did come across as elitist in 2000. The joke was how do you tell the difference between Al Gore and Secret Service men? Gore's the stiff one.

So in your haste to compose the daily trash and garbage that spews from random but organized obamabots, you don't know what the fuck you're talking about now, do you?

[omega minimo]

121. it would have been great if he had stood up with Barbara Boxer and Stephanie Tubbs Jones

when it mattered.

:bounce: :bounce:

[PoliticalAmazon]

123. Hillary stood silent, and refused to stand up for our votes...

...She never said a fucking word about it. She let the election be stolen by massive vote fraud and said NOTHING.

She proved to me then how much our votes meant to her--nothing.

Only a fool would vote for someone who had the chance, and refused to stand up for our votes.

[KoKo]

124. AHHH...but isn't that OLD NEWS in this CURRENT ELECTION? Sort of Like Torture and Missing WMD..

that "Election Fraud Thingy" is so OLD MILLENIUM STUFF.

:sarcasm: forgive me while I do the teary thingy. :cry:

[Willo]

126. Defense Mechanism, Paranoia and Projection

Psychiatry 101- Defense Mechanisms

They are psychological strategies used individuals (and by extension--groups of indidivuals and even entire nations at times) to cope with reality and to maintain his/her self -image intact.

A healthy person will use many different defenses throughout life. A defense mechanism becomes pathological when it is used persistantly and leads to maladaptive behavior that will eventually threaten the physical and/or mental health of the individual. Having said that, there are psychological defenses that are:
1) almost always pathological - when they prevent the individual from being able to cope with a real threat and obscure his/her ability to perceive reality;
2) immature - used in childhood and adolescence, but mostly abandoned by adulthood, since they lead to socially unacceptable behavior and/or prevent the adult from optimal coping with reality;
3) neurotic - common in everyone, but clearly not optimal for coping with reality since they lead to problems in relationships; work; and problems in enjoying life; and finally,
4) mature defense mechanisms - used by "healthy" adults, they optimize one's ability to have normal relationships; enjoy work, and to take pleasure in life.


Level 1 Defense Mechanisms - Almost always pathological; for the user these three defenses permit someone to rearrange external reality (and therefore not have to cope with reality); for the beholder, the users of these mechanisms frequently appear crazy or insane. These are the "psychotic" defenses, common in overt psychosis, in dreams, and throughout childhood. They include:
Denial - a refusal to accept external reality because it is too threatening. There are examples of denial being adaptive (for example, it might be adaptive for a person who is dying to have some denial (EXAMPLE, EXAMPLE )
Distortion - a gross reshaping of external reality to meet internal needs (EXAMPLE, EXAMPLE, EXAMPLE)
Delusional Projection - frank delusions about external reality, usually of a persecutory nature (EXAMPLE, EXAMPLE)
http://drsanity.blogspot.com/2004/08/psychiatry-101-defense-mechanisms.html

Level 2 Defense Mechanisms are seen frequently in adults and are common in adolescents. For the user these mechanism alter distress and anxiety caused by reality or other people; while for the beholder, people who use such defenses are seen as socially undesirable, immature, difficult and out of touch. They are considered "immature" defenses and almost always lead to serious problems in a person's ability to cope with the world. These defenses are seen in severe depression, personality disorders, and adolescence. They include:
Fantasy - tendency to retreat into fantasy in order to resolve inner and outer conflicts (EXAMPLE)
Projection - attributing one's own unacknowledged feelings to others; includes severe prejudice, severe jealousy, hypervigilance to external danger, and "injustice collecting". (EXAMPLE, EXAMPLE, EXAMPLE, EXAMPLE, EXAMPLE , EXAMPLE (remember that projection is a primitive form of paranoia, so it is common in today's world)
Hypochondriasis - the transformation of negative feelings towards others into negative feelings toward self, pain, illness and anxiety (EXAMPLE)
Passive Agressive Behavior - aggression towards others expressed indirectly or passively (EXAMPLE)
Acting Out Behavior - direct expression of an unconscious wish or impulse to avoid being conscious of the emotion that accompanies it (EXAMPLE, EXAMPLE)


Since all of these defense mechanisms can be used by adults to adapt to life, the question is:
When is a defense mechanism considered really "adaptive" and when is it considered "pathological"? What we call "mental illness" is actually a manifestation of an individual's pathological adaptive resposne to events in his/her life. Here is what makes a defense "pathological":
the defense is used in a rigid, inflexible, and exclusive manner
the motivation for using the defense comes more from past needs than present or future reality
the defense severely distorts the present situation
use of the defense leads to significant problems in relationships, functioning, and enjoyment of life
use of the defense impedes or distorts emotions and feelings, instead of rechanneling them effectively

http://drsanity.blogspot.com/2004/08/psychiatry-101-defense-mechanisms.html

Paranoia and Projection

Johah Goldberg is right about how paranoids think. Paranoia is a more "advanced" form of a psychological defense known as "projection". I have discussed this elsewhere, but it bears repeating since it is so common.

Projection is attributing one's own unacknowledged feelings to others; includes severe prejudice, severe jealousy, hypervigilance to external danger, and "injustice collecting". EXAMPLE, EXAMPLE, EXAMPLE, EXAMPLE, EXAMPLE . Most young children use projection as a defense mechanism, and it is considered normal for a child.

Projection is never a good long-term strategy--nor is it healthy--in an adult; and using such a defense mechanism represents a primitive attempt to shirk the responsibility for one's own feelings, thoughts, and actions. It causes and has caused much human misery, death, destruction and some of the most horrific acts that humans are capable of. When entire countries subscribe to a projected delusion (e.g., the "Jews" are to blame; the "Blacks" are the cause of all of our problems; "Republicans" are evil) it can lead to genocide and other behaviors that are paranoid and psychotically delusional. Full-blown paranoia occurs when one's mind severs the connection with reality entirely. Paranoia is a symptom of mental illness.

http://drsanity.blogspot.com/2004/12/paranoia-and-projection.html

[Imagevision]

127. Gore ended up in Fahrenheit 9-11 telling those protesting they had no support from

a Senator for a recount/investigation. Bushco made an asshole out of him.

[Occam Bandage]

128. I wish I had arrived early enough to recommend it. I'll settle for kicking it.

[Swamp Rat]

129. kick