The Subject No One Wants To Talk About

[Symarip]

I know it's probably troubling for some people around here to think that their candidate(s) had anything to do with the loss of life, both Americans and of those abroad. Imagine if your job was to protect people, like a fireman or a policeman, and one bad decision cost the lives of thousands. I'd hope you take your job so seriously that you wouldn't make that bad decision. And if you were to decide poorly, you might not skip around like nothing happened; not showing an ounce of remorse or sorrow.



This veteran implores you to take a good hard look at what happens when politicians who we hire to protect us fail at their job.




How any of you want to reward such behavior is beyond me. But some of you have made excellent excuses for that which cannot be excused. So, I ask of you, when you're posting about 'experience' and shitting out a particular candidate's resume, please include the decision to help Bush destroy 4000+ innocent American lives.

[lynnertic]

1. please tell me more about the photos

I'm curious as to where you found them, when the ceremony was photographed, if you know the photographer,

thanks.

[Symarip]

3. Most of them can be found doing a google search

'iraq coffins' usually brings up 10-15. Most of them are redundant because we're not supposed to see these pictures. Few have been published.

[lynnertic]

51. thanks

I was wondering about the ban on coffin pics.

[blogslut]

4. Here's a link to photos and stories involved

http://www.exit.com/Archives/caskets/dover/

[lynnertic]

52. thanks to you too!

for pointing me to this great article.

[Faygo Kid]

2. Proud to kick this one. Thank you for this.

Indeed.

At least an apology and admission of error would be something. John Edwards did it.

But she's no John Edwards.

[SeaLyons]

26. Hillary did express her deep regret for that vote...

and she will be the one to get the home. I trust her with getting them home faster than Obama will.

[proud2BlibKansan]

33. When did she do that?

Do you have a link?

[SeaLyons]

37. she stated her regret in one of the debates....

I don't have a link, but when asked what they most regretted, Hillary stated it was her vote for the war and that she wished she could take it back. Obama said he most regretted the Terry Schaivo saga and that he didn't speak up.

[phrigndumass]

45. Oct. 2002, she voted FOR the war ... Apr. 2004, "I'm not sorry"

A whole year after the war began, Senator Clinton told CNN she did not regret voting FOR the Iraq War Resolution.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/04/21/iraq.hillary/

[lojasmo]

55. She did NOT!

[SoonerPride]

5. I WANNA TALK ABOUT IT.

I want this damnable occupation to end.

Not next year.
Not next month.
Not tomorrow.
Yesterday.

Pack up and leave and say "sorry we fucked up your country, but BYE. Blame Bush."

That's what I want.

Then I want Bush and Cheney tried for war crimes.

Fuck the Iraq war. It was fucking bullshit and a criminal and pointless waste of precious lives.

[Juan_de_la_Dem]

6. Thank you for a powerful reminder

[skygazer]

7. I tend to agree

Those dead and the thousands of wounded, along with the clusterfuck that is Iraq, are the biggest issues we are facing and yet the focus is on whether or not Pennsylvanians are 'bitter' (of course they are - who isn't?) and Cindy McCain's recipe plagiarism. :eyes:

[Symarip]

9. No one involved with the IWR should be rewarded

Kerry, Edwards, Clinton, Santorum, the lot of em should be round up and tried at the Hague right next to Bush.

How anyone could allow this to happen... It's beyond a tragedy. It's the fucking Twilight Zone.

[Marrah_G]

13. You forgot Obama- he's funding the war. Gonna lock him up too?

[madfloridian]

8. And then to excuse lives lost by using "the gift of freedom"....

was overwhelming to me.

The Gift of Freedom

[AnarchoFreeThinker]

10. K&R (and thanks)

[Marrah_G]

11. Both our candidates bear some responsibility- But this is Bush's War

I am a Hillary supporter.

I have marched in DC against the war. I have walked with arms linked to keep the RW tools from jumping on our VFP and IVAW. My own brother missed the birth of his 6th child after being recalled ten years into his retirement and being sent to Iraq.

You may think Obama is the one that will end the war. I believe Hillary would.

Being for Hillary doesn't = supporting Bush's War and you damn well know it.

[Symarip]

14. You're right.

My bad. Let's see what Hillary has to say about it, in her own words:

http://clinton.senate.gov/speeches/iraq_101002.html

Floor Speech of Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton
on S.J. Res. 45, A Resolution to Authorize the Use of
United States Armed Forces Against Iraq
As Delivered

Today we are asked whether to give the President of the United States authority to use force in Iraq should diplomatic efforts fail to dismantle Saddam Hussein's chemical and biological weapons and his nuclear program.

I am honored to represent nearly 19 million New Yorkers, a thoughtful democracy of voices and opinions who make themselves heard on the great issues of our day especially this one. Many have contacted my office about this resolution, both in support of and in opposition to it, and I am grateful to all who have expressed an opinion.

I also greatly respect the differing opinions within this body. The debate they engender will aid our search for a wise, effective policy. Therefore, on no account should dissent be discouraged or disparaged. It is central to our freedom and to our progress, for on more than one occasion, history has proven our great dissenters to be right.

Now, I believe the facts that have brought us to this fateful vote are not in doubt. Saddam Hussein is a tyrant who has tortured and killed his own people, even his own family members, to maintain his iron grip on power. He used chemical weapons on Iraqi Kurds and on Iranians, killing over 20 thousand people. Unfortunately, during the 1980's, while he engaged in such horrific activity, he enjoyed the support of the American government, because he had oil and was seen as a counterweight to the Ayatollah Khomeini in Iran.

In 1991, Saddam Hussein invaded and occupied Kuwait, losing the support of the United States. The first President Bush assembled a global coalition, including many Arab states, and threw Saddam out after forty-three days of bombing and a hundred hours of ground operations. The U.S.-led coalition then withdrew, leaving the Kurds and the Shiites, who had risen against Saddam Hussein at our urging, to Saddam's revenge.

As a condition for ending the conflict, the United Nations imposed a number of requirements on Iraq, among them disarmament of all weapons of mass destruction, stocks used to make such weapons, and laboratories necessary to do the work. Saddam Hussein agreed, and an inspection system was set up to ensure compliance. And though he repeatedly lied, delayed, and obstructed the inspections work, the inspectors found and destroyed far more weapons of mass destruction capability than were destroyed in the Gulf War, including thousands of chemical weapons, large volumes of chemical and biological stocks, a number of missiles and warheads, a major lab equipped to produce anthrax and other bio-weapons, as well as substantial nuclear facilities.

<snip>


MmmmHmmm. She's one hell of an Anti-war candidate. With a speech like that, I'm surprised Bush didn't pull a 180 and reconsider the invasion all together?!

Cheers, to the Goddess of Peace!

[Marrah_G]

15. So you are fine with Obama's continued funding of the war right?

And frankly if he has been a Senator at the time I think he absolutely would have voted the same way she did.

[Symarip]

18. As a man who served in the military during this nonsense

To not fund the war, after our genius government decided to ship tens of thousands of troops over there, would have been an absolute disaster. And I'm not talking politically. Keeping our troops well equiped is not a cheap endeavor. Arguing that we should cut funding fundamentally boils down to more of our own dying in order to bring the rest home. It won't work and puts thousands of innocent servicemen in greater danger. So yes, the funding of the war is essential in order to save lives.

And no disrespect to you, but speculation about how Obama would have voted is an absolute crock of shit. Sorry. You can deflect, ignore, and excuse your candidate a thousand times over, but attempts to degrade the other candidate by rationalizing he might or might not have done something is absurd. He didn't. She did.

Live with it.

[Orsino]

54. To a certain extent, * and Cheney have held our troops hostage that way.

But the decision to keep funding his war, guaranteeing more death and misery, is a terrible one--particularly when we know that the decision is in part pure political expediency.

A principled stand by Congress (yeah, right) could have prevented the invasion, and several opportunities for principled, if tardy, stances have come and gone. That the White House has taken hostages is not a reason for our representatives to have negotiated (and poorly) with kidnappers.

[Texasgal]

38. Sorry..

But I have family serving and they better damn well have what they need while they are there! NO ONE should tolerate our soldiers being without the right equipment and somewhat decent living conditions!

[Symarip]

39. I have friends over there too

I'm in complete agreement.

I just wish they'd attach a time table to their appropriation bills.

[Texasgal]

40. Oh yes.. I agree.

I want them home as soon as possible!

I just want them to be taken care of while they are there, and as of now nothing will happen until Bush is out!

[butterfly77]

49. What I have always wondered is ..

are the amounts Bush states to fund the war are correct. I can remember at the beginning when they said that the Iraqis that they were giving the Iraqis twenty to twenty-two billion and I have been wondering where all of that money went.Some of the eighty-seven billions times I don't know how many times they have asked for it is going to Blackwater and other entities and they are getting paid more than the military.

I have never believed that the funding that they have been asking for over the yrs is correct plus, where is the 9 billion that went missing and there have been other things that the money has been wasted on. THey were riding around in trucks passing out money at one time Bushco has been lying all along and no one can or may never find out all of the corruption.

[proud2BlibKansan]

34. Bingo!!!

[jaxx]

12. And then there is this pic, when the bushies sent the dead home on the cheap.

Sent home in the belly of a plane, in a cardboard covered carton. Remember what bush has done to our troops, remember and bring it up as often as you can. He used them.



<snip> Dead heroes are supposed to come home with their coffins draped with the American flag -- greeted by a color guard.

But in reality, many are arriving as freight on commercial airliners -- stuffed in the belly of a plane with suitcases and other cargo.

http://www.10news.com/news/5504608/detail.html

[Symarip]

16. I did not know that

And I'm so 'bitter' now, words have completely escaped me.

[Hepburn]

22. OMG.....

....this is beyond deplorable. Fuck the assholes that allowed this to happen!

:cry:

[grantcart]

17. I want a party nominee that can talk about it

[L0oniX]

19. Kick

[azmouse]

20. K&R

[Mezzo]

21. I wonder which candidate wants to bring them home first.

:shrug:

[Symarip]

23. Nice diversion

Too bad one of them helped get us into this mess.

I know it's hard to face the facts. Somethings simply cannot be excused.

This is one of them.

[Tyler Durden]

25. To vote to FUND it is to vote to SUPPORT it.

This cannot be disputed.

[Symarip]

31. Keep telling yourself that

To fund this war keeps people alive and protected.

Sorry.

[Tyler Durden]

36. Check the Pentagon Budget....

As an ex Navy person involved in Procurement/Medical, unless payment priorities have changed, the war would have been funded under continuing budget, and the cuts would have been made in non-strategic, stateside support; not that they're doing much of THAT either.

But thanks for playing our game....

[Symarip]

42. Even to concede your point,

Which I don't, would mean that voting to go into an illegal, ill-conceived war is just as bad as to fund it.

So, they're essentially the same candidate, then, right?

So which one's been fucking up longer?

Uh oh...

[Tyler Durden]

43. A lie is a lie, and a buck is a buck.

The dollars voted by Obama bought just as much death as the dollars voted by Clinton.

"HAIL BOSTON! HAIL CHARLESTON! Who stinketh the most?"
Edward Rutledge, (South Carolina Representative to the Continental Congress, referring to the "Triangle Trade")

[Symarip]

46. Hm.

I can't see how you equate the two. Guess it boils down to a difference of opinion. But I find that the appropriations were a necessity. We agree to disagree.

I appreciate the honest discourse.

[Tyler Durden]

48. You are Polite and thoughtful.

This is welcome.

Not everyone stays awake at night with "Checkbook Honesty" like I do, and it's not a requirement for membership in Humanity.

I see every PENNY I pay in taxes as having some contribution to a bullet, a bomb, or a Bush.

But that's just me.

[Symarip]

50. Hey Look

If we're talking about the subject no one wants to talk about, then that is true progress. Do I hold back in my positions? No. Neither should you or anyone else. That's what a FORUM is. There's no point if everything is one sided. Talking about the hard issues is where we will succeed because then we can truly unify.

Just like when people 'call for civility' or say 'let it sink' or suggest using ignore, I disagree. Talk with the people that are different from you. You might learn something about them. You might learn about yourself. You might change your mind.

[Hepburn]

41. And we all have NO doubts about which candidate helped put them there...

...do we?

Fuck your war monger candidate. :grr:

[Tyler Durden]

24. Trick Question (no GOOGLE, please)

Name the ONE DEMOCRATIC SENATOR who voted against IWR and the other two supporting resolutions.

[Symarip]

27. I thought 21 Senators voted against it.

I could be wrong.

[madfloridian]

28. Here are the NAYs in the Senate:

Akaka (D-HI)
Bingaman (D-NM)
Boxer (D-CA)
Byrd (D-WV)
Chafee (R-RI)
Conrad (D-ND)
Corzine (D-NJ)
Dayton (D-MN)
Durbin (D-IL)
Feingold (D-WI)
Graham (D-FL)
Inouye (D-HI)
Jeffords (I-VT)
Kennedy (D-MA)
Leahy (D-VT)
Levin (D-MI)
Mikulski (D-MD)
Murray (D-WA)
Reed (D-RI)
Sarbanes (D-MD)
Stabenow (D-MI)
Wellstone (D-MN)
Wyden (D-OR)

http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=107&vote=00237&session=2#position

[Tyler Durden]

29. 10 seconds left in FINAL JEOPARDY....

[Tyler Durden]

32. The One Democrat who opposed IWR, Levin and Durbin amendments:

Paul Wellstone.

Don't you MISS that guy?

[Starbucks Anarchist]

30. Feingold?

[proud2BlibKansan]

35. 23 voted against it

[marlakay]

44. I mentioned to the new neighbors if mccain gets in

he will have to do a draft because of the military being how it is and they said basically so what? i said this time not only guys will be drafted but girls too and I have girls in their 20's and I am afraid of that. They have one son in his 30's and their attitude was well they will only take the young ones 18-20. Like so long as its not my kid so what.......

I think we need when it comes to the general to get the word out strong and clear that McCain will have to do a draft. the fear of that will cause a ton of voters of 18-25 yr olds to vote in a dem.

i would force McCain to answer the question how exactly is he going to keep this war going with the volunteer army unless he plans on hiring more and more blackwater folks for $$$$$$$$$$$$$$.

Force him to say how much it will cost us to pay for that and the war.

Force him to answer about how the troops are REALLY doing.

[EFerrari]

47. The Dover Test.

:hug:
:grouphug:

[Stephanie]

53. One million New Yorkers marched to stop this war before it started

Hillary did not listen. She does not represent me.

http://www.listenhillary.org/article.php?list=type&type=115