Elitist? The Clintons Have Two Mansions & $109M. The Obamas Lived in a Condo Until 2005

[Stephanie]

It's the Dishonesty, Hillary.

"It is true,'' Obama added, "I am amused about this notion of elitist,'' given that he was raised by a single mother who for a time relied on food stamps and married a woman of humble means as well. "We both had to finance our entire law school educations borrowing money, and we paid off our student loans about five years ago, six years ago…

"We lived for the first 13 years in our marriage, up until three years ago, in a one-bedroom condo without a garage,'' Obama said, "which means, if you live in Chicago, you are scraping ice from your windshield'' in the morning.

“That’s when you know we’re in political silly season.’’

http://www.swamppolitics.com/news/politics/blog/2008/04/obama_on_elitism_silly_season.html

VS.

Bill's Westchester estate >






and Hill's DC mansion >

The Neo-Georgian mansion in Washington is officially called Whitehaven, but it is already known by irreverent Democrats as the "White-House-in-Waiting" and "Fund-raising Central".

Now Hillary Clinton's elegant five-storey home is to become even more grandiose with a $900,000 (£488,880) expansion and refit in preparation for her expected run at the presidency. The work, including a 1,000 square foot extension, will create more space for the New York senator to hold money-spinning dinners and receptions.

Mrs Clinton bought the red-brick house with her husband Bill, the former President, in 2001 for $2.8 million. Now valued at $4.2 million, it sits on the secluded Whitehaven Street, behind the British embassy and residence of Sir David Manning, the ambassador, and is just along from the Naval Observatory of Dick Cheney, the vice-president.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/09/11/wclin11.xml

[LisaM]

1. And now the Obamas live in a 1.6 million dollar house (don't know if it's a mansion)

I don't know where the Clintons lived during the first ten years of their marriage (at least until Bill became Governor of Arkansas), but that would be the more apt comparison.

[Arrowhead2k1]

8. The point is...

They are both part of an elite society to a certain extent. Nothing terribly wrong with that. She said it herself, this is the kind of negative perception that has been plaguing mainly the Democratic party for nearly a decade. So what does she do about it? Tries to make it a wedge issue in an attempt to save her own nomination. Shame on her!

[uponit7771]

9. Nope and no wear near paid off either

[Yael]

36. Take a look for yourself:

[quantass]

51. I live in a $1.6 million home and NOWHERE NEAR wealthy (its low middle-class where we live)

I am a standard software engineer....it's all relative.

[JuniperLea]

57. That's the point I'm trying to get across here...

You can't compare your job to a grocery checker, or a shoe salesman, or a car wash worker.

Just as you can't compare the salary of a 40 year old politician to that of a 60 year old politician.

[BlueStateGirl]

68. it's not about the age. It is about the job. If Obama is elected how much

do you suppose he will command in speaking fees after his term? What do you think his book advance will be? Or Michelle's?

GMAB. But I suppose, humble , saintly Barak will go back to being a $12,000 a year community organizer, scraping ice off his windshield.

Whatever.

[JuniperLea]

74. I think it's both age and job...

And how long you've been in a job.

Yep, when Obama is 60, I'm sure he'll rake it in just like all the rest.

[Mugweed]

92. and if he calls others "elitists" at that point

I'll be right there to call him on it. You see, the problem is that a rich f*ck called other rich f*cks elitists, then hopped into the limo to get to the private jet to get back to the mansion. I still think about how angry I was at the Dixie Chicks....not for the right-wing reasons, but for actually saying B*sh was from Texas. He's a New England Eli who is a member of one of the richest American families around. Somehow that prick managed to fool middle-IQ America into thinking he was an average Texan. When HRC says elitist, I think pot/kettle/black.

[JuniperLea]

95. I agree to a point...

But the context had nothing to do with wealth... it had to do with emotional stability... clinging to religion and guns has nothing to do with wealth... rich and poor cling to both, truth be known.

[cali]

107. 40? You don't help yourself with that kind of blatant dishonest;y

Obama is far closer to 50 at age 46 than he is to 40. How typical of you.

[LisaM]

58. Where do you live, in Dubai?

LOLOL. I live in Seattle and 1.6 million will put you in a pretty nice neighborhood - not the most upscale in town, but very nice. And our housing market is inflated.

[JuniperLea]

64. In areas of Los Angeles...

$1.6m is slumming... the house I bought in 1995 for $187k is now worth $750k... and the house across the street, just like mine but with a quality addition just sold for $975k... this, after the bottom dropped out of the market and prices in the area plummeted.

It's crazy out there!

[grace0418]

69. Let me tell you that $1.6M doesn't buy that much in Chicago. It would hardly

compare to the estates pictured in the OP. Nice (but by no means extravagant) homes in my neighborhood pretty regularly go for $1.25M-$2.5M.

[Cronus Protagonist]

91. With the help of a corrupt influence peddler too

Not that I care much because I know almost all politicians are crooked. A few exceptions like Dennis prove the rule.

[MadBadger]

2. They misquoted him, he said three bedroom.

[Stephanie]

4. I changed the thread title

thanks

[Yael]

3. That was a mis-quote. He said 3 bedroom

:hi:

[Stephanie]

5. I changed the thread title, I left the quote as is since that's how it reads at the link

thanks

[MagickMuffin]

6. Off to the Greatest

:kick: & RRRRRRR

[JuniperLea]

7. How much older are the Clinton's than the Obama's?

Perspective is everything.

[Stephanie]

10. Yes because every 60-something couple is worth $109M.

[uponit7771]

12. Either THEY are really stupid or they think everyone else is!!! I can't believe some of the defenses

...of the 100 million club of Hillary and McSame

[JuniperLea]

13. And there are some still living in apartments

That's not the point. We are talking about two couples who are working in the political arena. We are not talking about all people in a certain age range.

[uponit7771]

16. Obamas just paid off their student loans Mrs 109 million doesnt have to work another day in her life

[JuniperLea]

22. Again... how old is Obama and how old is Clinton?

I'm in the same job market as a lot of people who make $150k a year, but they are near their retirement, while I have many years to go... I'll get there, and so will Obama. You can't expect a life long politician in their 40's to make the same annual income as one who has been in the business for twice the time. And another thing, Bill Clinton was president... presidents make a killing in speeches every year merely because they were once president. Bet me Obama won't be in the same position if he becomes president. You can't be serious.

[uponit7771]

26. WOW!! You're making an age issue out of this?!?! You can't be independanlty rich at age 46? There...

...are a TON of people I know at age 60 that aren't multimillionaires and HAVE to work at age 60!

You've lost, age doesn't equal rich or doesn't have to work another day in their lives!

[JuniperLea]

38. You are comparing apples and oranges...

You have to compare people in the same job market for your comparison to be valid.

I know a 60+ year old janitor who doesn't make 1/10th of what my 70 year old dad makes in his retirement fun job. You can't compare the two.

I'm comparing two couples who are in politics. You are not. In order for your argument to be valid, you must compare apples to apples.

And... if now that you can't prove me wrong you instead attack me personally, it's very telling. Just saying...

[uponit7771]

43. edited post...mean to say "you've lost" instead of you're lost. I don't get your argument on the...

...issue of elitist then.

I mean elitist to mean the untouchable upper crust which the McSame and Hillary site amongst

[JuniperLea]

49. You are wrong...

Elitist does not equal wealthy. You can't make up your own definition.

[Mags]

98. your so right, I don't think these people get it, It's not how much

you have, it is having a lot and looking down on the people who do not have it.

[JuniperLea]

100. Obama was looking down on people who found emotional strength

and comfort in religion and guns... he was holding himself above the need for such things. The tone was very condescending.

[Mags]

105. thank you.......

[BlueStateGirl]

73. Are any of those folks a former POTUS and first lady? Would any

of those folks get an 8 Million dollar advance for writing a book? Or $100,000 to make a speech?

If Barak is elected, I would be surprised if he weren't worth upwards of 100 million 8 years after his term.

[Stephanie]

19. It's still a bullshit point. Bill rakes in half a million from cronies for making one speech.

They're corrupt as hell - THAT'S what all this brouhaha is about this week. Lisa Myers' NBC report on the shady Clinton finances was nicely swept under the rug by this bullshit non-issue.

[JuniperLea]

24. That's how it works

Become president, then after, you start making the real bank.

You can't tell me Obama won't do the same should he become president. Seriously. You should think this out first.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

30. Just like Carter.

Oh, wait...

[JuniperLea]

41. Have you seen Carter's tax returns?

It doesn't mean a thing. He chose a different path, and more power to him. I'm betting he still makes a fine bank every year. I've heard him speak post-presidency, and thankfully, I was given the ticket because I would NOT have paid that price to hear anyone, not even Carter, and I think he is one of the best presidents ever.

[Beaverhausen]

97. and every 60-something couple has one member who was President

Get a grip. Ex-presidents make money. Deal with it. Obama will make plenty when he leaves politics.

[JuniperLea]

101. Well said...

The analogies I'm seeing here are beyond frightening!

[uponit7771]

11. I know peopel Clintons age and they didn't make 109 million or own 2 mansions either.

...don't even go there

[JuniperLea]

25. How many people do you know that are the same age as the Clintons

Who have been president and make a killing in speeches, like all former presidents have done and all future presidents will do?

[uponit7771]

28. You're making my point for me, they can't call someone "elitist" when they JUST paid off their ...

...student freakin loans!!

[JuniperLea]

42. Elitist does NOT mean wealthy...

You seem confused.

[Autumn]

14. Didn't he Clinton's leave the Whitehouse

in debt with their legal fees from the investigation by ken star,and the right wing assholes?

[Stephanie]

20. They recovered nicely, didn't they?

With a little help from the royal families of Dubai and Saudi Arabia.

[Autumn]

27. I think that their book sales,

and speaking fees probably account for a lot of it,I haven't really looked at their tax returns so I will just have to take your word on the rest. From what I have seen though ,all politicians seem to leave service with a golden parachute.

[Stephanie]

45. Allow me to provide you with the facts >

http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5jrsv2wEPz4ZELxNHRVtAWeDGe78w

Clintons' 109-million-dollar income under close scrutiny
Apr 5, 2008

WASHINGTON (AFP) — Tax returns released by former first couple Hillary and Bill Clinton revealed they earned 109 million dollars over eight years, and questions were raised Saturday about the sources of much of their wealth.

A day after Hillary Clinton's White House campaign posted the 221 pages of personal financial documents on her website, analysts and media focused on the 52 million dollars Bill Clinton earned for speaking engagements, pointing to links between those who hired him and donations to her current campaign to win the Democratic presidential nomination.

Hillary Clinton's campaign called the disclosure a sign of her transparency, after being pressed for weeks by rival Barack Obama to match his publication of his tax records.

The documents show the couple paid 33 million dollars in federal taxes over the period -- a relatively high 31-percent tax rate -- and donated 10 million dollars to charity.

"The Clintons have now made public 30 years of tax returns, a record matched by few people in public service," said Clinton spokesman Jay Carson in a statement.

"None of Hillary Clinton's presidential opponents have revealed anything close to this amount of personal financial information."

Usually aggressive in responding to rival campaign announcements, Obama's team made no comment about the Clintons' immense wealth.

But with the median US household income in 2006 just 48,200 dollars -- 0.3 percent of the Clintons' earnings that year -- the revelation could undermine her efforts to connect with average voters.

The Los Angeles Times pointed out that the amount the Clintons have claimed for maintaining their homes is greater than the 44,000 dollar average family income in Pennsylvania, the next important state to vote on the Democratic presidential nomination.

Such comparisons, coming as the country's economy sinks into likely recession and job losses mount, could prove a liability to the Clinton campaign.

On Friday night Clinton sought to soften the possible effect by criticizing President George W. Bush's tax cuts, which are criticized for benefiting the wealth more than others.

"My husband much to my surprise and his has made a lot of money since he left the White House -- doing what he loves doing most, talking to people," she said at a campaign appearance in North Dakota.

"But we didn't ask for George Bush's tax cuts. We didn't want them and we didn't need them."

The income and tax documents released Friday show that since Bill Clinton left the White House in January 2001, after eight years pulling in less than 400,000 dollars a year, the couple earned 109,175,175 dollars, or 13.6 million each year.

In comparison, income for Senator Obama and his wife Michelle, who released their own tax documents on March 25, peaked in 2005 at 1.6 million dollars.

Only a small part of the Clintons' income came from her senate salary, his pension, and investments.

Both made large sums from books -- 10.5 million dollars for Senator Clinton, mainly from her autobiography "Living History;" and 29.5 million dollars for the former president's two books, including 23 million for the best-selling memoir "My Life."

By far the biggest source of income was the 52 million dollars from Bill Clinton's speaking engagements.

Exiting the White House seven years ago with reportedly 12 million dollars in debts for legal costs related to the Monica Lewinsky and other scandals, the former president immediately launched into speaking tours, earning sometimes hundreds of thousands of dollars for a single engagement. The newly released documents do not detail the sources of these payments.

But in 2005, he made 352 speeches -- averaging almost one a day -- and for two speeches in a single day in Canada, he pulled in 475,000 dollars.

The Washington Post said banking giant Citigroup, which together with its employees ranked as a leading source of donations for Hillary Clinton's presidential campaign, paid her husband 250,000 dollars for a speech in France in 2004.

Much attention was also given to Bill Clinton's estimated 15 million dollars in income from a partnership in the investment firm Yucaipa with billionaire Ron Burkle -- a significant backer of Hillary Clinton's campaign.

US media also said that Bill Clinton earned 400,000 dollars in consulting fees from direct marketing giant InfoUSA, whose chief executive Vinod Gupta was sued by shareholders last year for making company resources available to Hillary's campaign.

[Autumn]

53. Thanks, but it doesn't matter to me

ALL politicians make big bucks after office,including future Presidents. I made money off Halliburton stocks, it happens.

[Stephanie]

56. Yes, I know facts don't matter to you.

They don't matter to the Clintons either, so you're on the right team.

[Autumn]

62. That is your view of the facts, I have mine

and yes I am on the right team.

[Stephanie]

66. Enjoy your Halliburton profits, then.

And I hope each time you sit down to a nice meal you thank the mangled bodies of slaughtered Iraqi civilians who helped provide it for you.

[Autumn]

70. Well I had those investments before the war

and I blame bush for the war so I really have no problems with it.

[Stephanie]

75. Gee, you just enjoy then!

[Autumn]

76. LOL ,you can't make me feel guilty,

as I said I had those before the war ever began, and yes I did enjoy the money when I sold them. It came in handy.

[cali]

108. bullshit. In fact, not all politicians choose to make money off their

positions. Take my reps and ex-reps in Congress. Jim Jeffords? Nope, never got rich. Pat Leahy? 96th wealthiest in the Senate after 34 years. No stocks, no bonds, no fancy houses.

[LisaM]

65. Of course it 's under intense scrutiny. Everything they've done since 1992 has been scrutinized

and disseminated and debated to the point where I don't know how they take it.

[City Lights]

87. They also got help from McAwful so they could establish residency in NY

allowing Hill to run for the Senate. Pays to have rich friends.

Clinton's Home Loan Deal Raises Questions

By Ruth Marcus
Washington Post Staff Writer
Saturday, September 4, 1999; Page A1

After President Clinton and fund-raiser extraordinaire Terry McAuliffe played a round of golf in upstate New York on Tuesday, the president made an unscheduled visit to St. Camillus Nursing Home to visit McAuliffe's ailing 79-year-old mother, Millie, who recently had hip replacement surgery.

Later in the week, McAuliffe returned the favor – and then some. When former White House chief of staff Erskine B. Bowles at the last minute balked at guaranteeing a $1.35 million mortgage for the Clintons' new house in Chappaqua, N.Y., McAuliffe rode to the president's rescue.

In a move that enables the Clintons to buy the house – and Hillary Rodham Clinton to have a base for her New York Senate run – the 42-year-old real estate developer and dealmaker pledged to put up $1.35 million in cash to secure a mortgage for the Clintons. Otherwise, swamped by more than $5 million in legal debts, the Clintons might have had difficulty obtaining the loan for the five-bedroom, century-old house.

Ethics law experts said yesterday that there is no legal difficulty with the Clintons' accepting McAuliffe's help, but some questioned the propriety of the president's accepting such a benefit from a private citizen.

"It's just plain wrong. It's dangerous. It's inappropriate," said Fred Wertheimer of Democracy 21. "This is a financial favor worth over a million dollars to the president."

McAuliffe is not actually giving any money to the Clintons. Rather, he will deposit $1.35 million in cash – the full amount of their mortgage – with Bankers Trust; the only risk to McAuliffe's money is in the unlikely event that the Clintons default.

<snip>

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/campaigns/keyraces2000/stories/house090499.htm

[hedgehog]

21. Here's what gets me about that - the Clintons must have had some notion of what their future

earnings would be, yet there was at least one group raising money to pay off their legal fees!

[Autumn]

31. Sorry I have no problem with that n/t

[JuniperLea]

50. So what?

There are people raising money for all sorts of things. Why worry about what others do with their money? If they have money to burn, and they feel it's justified, none of us have the right to tell them what to do with their money.

[JuniperLea]

29. Yep, and then Bill started pulling in the big bank just like ALL former presidents

That's how it works. Somehow people don't want Bill to do that now, but I'm betting they would support the same action after an Obama presidency.

These people are blinded by their own outrage. Seriously.

[uponit7771]

35. Good, kinda makes it hard for stupid ass'd Hillary to call someone elitist then

[JuniperLea]

44. Again, you are confusing elitist with wealthy...

Get thee to a dictionary.

[rodeodance]

81. you can not even carry on a conversation without childish name calling of a DEMOCRAT

[Autumn]

37. And all future Presidents will do

the same. That is how the system is set up.

[JuniperLea]

47. Exactly!

That is how it is done. That is why presidents don't make squat in salary as president. That salary barely keeps them in clothes to be presentable as our president.

So many have forgotton so much around here!

[americanstranger]

15. Yes, but they're 'populist' mansions!

And all that money is the very same type of money, in denomination and value, that every American spends!

Why... the Clintons are just like us!!!

:sarcasm:

- as

[uponit7771]

17. Yeap, I donated 10 million to my self last year and loved it /sarcasm

[mmonk]

18. Elitist means arrogant liberal to the sheeple.

It gives them a brain freeze. That's why the Clintons and the republicans are using it.

[Mags]

23. arrogant liberal fits Obama to a tee.

[uponit7771]

32. ...don't you mean "uppity"?! and yes, you HAVE to hame some minerals to run for US prez

[Mags]

80. Had I meant uppity, I would have sad uppity. Got it, get it?

[mmonk]

33. Are we playing pretend with the Clintons?

Because if you don't think they are arrogant, you're star struck.

[uponit7771]

40. ...Yes SHE Will vs. Yes WE Can...They of course don't think she's arrogant /sarcasm

[Autumn]

46. Arrogant? Don't you mean

uppity?

[JuniperLea]

52. How can you hope to be president if you aren't at least a tad arrogant?

You would need a damn healthy self-esteem to pull that off regardless.

[Autumn]

59. Very true

a little bit of arrogance is good. Now if a person is as arrogant as that asshole bush,then it's a different matter.

[cbayer]

34. Had to scrape ice from the car's windshield?!?!?! Oh no!!

I hope he meant that as a joke. I really do. I really, really do.

At any rate, I don't think that individual wealth (or lack of it) can really be correlated reliably with elitism. Elitism is an attitude. Some of the most elitist people I have known have been professors with rather meager salaries. There are also people, like Bill and Melinda Gates, who are some of the richest people in the world and don't appear to be elitist at all.

[uponit7771]

39. elitist in the context Hillary and McSame are using (man, I can't believe I'm typing that) has more

...to do with someone who is upper crust and can't relate.

That's idiotic looking at the two people who don't have to work another day in their LIVEs to get by

[JuniperLea]

55. I don't think you understand the word...

Or the context in which it is being used.

By the time Obama is their age, he won't have to work another day in his life either. Do you have a problem with that?

[LisaM]

72. I agree. A lot of people need to scrape ice off their cars.

And if he was able to have a car, buy a condo, and continue to pay off law school bills at the same time, then it's hardly as if he was waiting in line at the food bank. It means he was building equity and getting ahead. Good for him (and Michelle). They were living out the American dream more than I've ever been able to do. I know people who live and work in Chicago who don't have cars (because you don't necessarily need one there).

Oh, and now he's paying $10,000 a year for his daughters to take dance and piano and go to camp. I think his daughters are something like 8 and 5. Was Chelsea taking piano and dance at that age? Going to an expensive camp?

[cbayer]

77. That's why I hope it was meant to be funny.

I haven't heard the comment in context, so I can't say. I've got an ex and 2 kids in Chicago. It's a really expensive place to live and they use public transportation. They will find that remark rather stunning.

But I agree, good for the Obamas. They have worked hard and they are living out the American dream. They are intelligent and have had access to excellent education. They should be able to give their kids whatever they want.

That's why this whole discussion about wealth equating to elitism just strikes me as bogus to it's core. They need to be careful about flaunting it, however, because people without may well experience that as elitist.

[PM7nj]

48. ARkansas Governor's Mansion

[Tactical Progressive]

54. Until Rezko, you mean.

[Catherine Vincent]

60. Ridiculous thread. nt

[Stephanie]

61. Ridiculous reply.

What happened to you?

[Tactical Progressive]

63. So stop idolizing him.

[JuniperLea]

67. That is what scares me most of all...

It's pure idolatry. Scary as all hell that we're seeing this in this day and age. Especially for so-called progressives who have witnessed first hand the pure idolatry that happened with BushII. Scary as hell when people become what they hate, and don't have the wherewithal to see it for themselves.

:scared:

[Tactical Progressive]

82. I agree

They can't step back and see it.

Now they're trying to project it away from themselves onto Hillary.

I also agree that progressives aren't supposed to be this way.

[slackmaster]

71. It's like the pot calling the kettle black

:hide:

[rodeodance]

78. most of elitism comes from attitudes--NOT money.

[goldcanyonaz]

79. Is being rich now a crime?

[Stephanie]

83. In this case, likely yes.

Why did Ron Burkle pay Bill $15M? We really don't know for what. What about the $400,000 from Gupta? And the hundreds of thousands from Dubai and Saudi Arabia? That money went into the joint bank account, and $5M of it has gone straight into Hillary's campaign fund. But nothing to see here! Move along! It's so ELITIST of you to ask such questions!

[Autumn]

85. Why yes it is

:hi: How are you doing?

[goldcanyonaz]

86. HI!!!

:hi:

[bobthedrummer]

90. When the riches come from criminal enterprises-of course.

"Cooking the Insurance Books: A Decade of Lax Regulation Lays Groundwork for Scandal" by Lucy Komisar (11-17-2004 Corp Watch)
http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=11657

From the staff of the Ozark Gazette

"Gray Money"
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POLITICS/MENA/gray_money.html

"The Activities at Mena"
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POLITICS/MENA/mena.html

[goldcanyonaz]

94. Like Rezko?

[bobthedrummer]

102. Like Jorge Cabrera, Ng Lap Seng, Roger Tamraz, Chung Lo, Marc Rich,

Yah Lin "Charlie" Trie, Aslan Abashidze, Vadim Rabinovich, Grigory Loutchansky...

[goldcanyonaz]

109. You forgot this one...

[zalinda]

84. Being an elitist has NOTHING to do with money

and you people should be smart enough to know that. I have met people who were very rich and you would never know it. I've met people who had 4 degrees and you'd never know it. I've also met people who thought they were rich and made you feel like you were not good enough to be in their presence. And, I've met people who only went to college for ONE year, who made you out as not being smart enough.

The fact is, elitism has to do with HOW you make one feel. Gore with all his knowledge came off a little stiff which translated into being aloof, and the media ramped that image up. Kerry, also over explained things and then went wind surfing, which didn't help, and the media ramped that image up. Obama has this Harvard professor thing going on, and is talking way above most people's heads, he comes off as a pompous ass. Now, I understand that Obama supporters don't see this, but then you already like him. I don't have that problem, I don't like him, and have never pretended that I have, and I don't like Clinton either, and I don't see that pompous attitude coming from her. BTW, I was totally turned off by Obama when he went into preacher mode, liked him at the dem convention, can't stand him now.

You also see elitism in sports, entertainment and even in business fields........in business it's called "the boy's club". I don't see Obama as being a team player at all, either he's the star, or he's out of there, and that goes for his wife too.

zalinda

[Autumn]

89. Good post

:toast: I wish I could recommend it.

[JuniperLea]

93. Well said!

Funny thing is, now that your most excellent post jogged my memory, I remember thinking about it at the time of Gore's as well as Kerry's bids... people bashed them for being aloof, but the confusion stemmed from both Gore and Kerry being so intellectually superior to most of us! And people sat here bashing them, making themselves look ever so foolish in the process.

Just because "we" don't get something, it's no sign it's not valid. A pleasing personality in no way guarantees solid intelligence, nor does superior intelligence guarantee a pleasing personality! Most highly intelligent people are quirky as all hell! I'd much rather have an extremely intelligent person in the White House, than someone who "inspires" me, or has a pleasing personality.

[Autumn]

96. I am right with you on intelligent

look what we have had for the last seven years.

[JuniperLea]

99. Exactly...

A guy people wanted to have a beer with... great. Just great.

[Autumn]

103. Yeah bush had quite the

following huh? It should have been over three years ago.

[JuniperLea]

104. It was the... dare I say it?

Kool Aid poisoning!

[Autumn]

106. LOL

:spank:

[CreekDog]

88. Congressmen George Miller-CA, Schumer-NY and Panetta-CA shared a DC townhouse in the 1980's

In order to save money. Elite? I don't think so. It's hardly automatic.