About elitism and the candidates.

[cornermouse]

Hillary attended public schools.
Obama attended a rather expensive private school with 9 tennis courts and an olympic size pool.
-----------------------------
Highlights of Wikipedia's synopsis of Hillary's early college years minus the footnotes.

"Rodham then entered Yale Law School, where she served on the Board of Editors of the Yale Review of Law and Social Action. During her second year, she worked at the Yale Child Study Center, learning about new research on early childhood brain development and working as a research assistant on the seminal work, Beyond the Best Interests of the Child (1973). She also took on cases of child abuse at Yale-New Haven Hospital, and volunteered at New Haven Legal Services to provide free advice for the poor. In the summer of 1970, she was awarded a grant to work at Marian Wright Edelman's Washington Research Project, where she was assigned to Senator Walter Mondale's Subcommittee on Migratory Labor, researching migrant workers' problems in housing, sanitation, health and education; Edelman would become a significant mentor to her." ..."Rodham organized a two-day student strike and worked with Wellesley's black students for moderate changes, such as recruiting more black students and faculty" and "In the summer of 1970, she was awarded a grant to work at Marian Wright Edelman's Washington Research Project, where she was assigned to Senator Walter Mondale's Subcommittee on Migratory Labor, researching migrant workers' problems in housing, sanitation, health and education" ...she interned on child custody cases at the Oakland, California, law firm of Treuhaft, Walker and Burnstein, which was well-known for its support of constitutional rights, civil liberties, and radical causes; two of its four partners were current or former communist party members"...
------------------------

Highlights of Wikipedia's synopsis of Obama's early college years minus the footnotes.

"Obama received his college degree from Columbia University in 1983, then worked at Business International Corporation and New York Public Interest Research Group before moving to Chicago in 1985 to take a job as a community organizer. He entered Harvard Law School in 1988. In 1990, The New York Times reported his election as the first black president of the Harvard Law Review. Obama completed his law degree with honors in 1991, then returned to Chicago where he headed a voter registration drive and began writing his first book, Dreams from My Father, a memoir published in 1995. ..."As an associate attorney with Davis, Miner, Barnhill and Galland from 1993 to 2002, he represented community organizers, discrimination claims, and voting rights cases." ..."While Obama never took part in a trial, he worked on legal teams drawing up briefs, contracts, and other legal documents. This included work for the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now in a successful lawsuit that forced the state of Illinois to implement a federal law that was designed to make it easier for people to register to vote, work on an appeals brief on behalf of a whistleblower who was suing Cook County Hospital and the Hektoen Institute for Medical Research for wrongful termination, and work for another legal team that forced the city of Chicago to redraw ward boundaries that the city council drew up following the 1990 census."
------------------------

You probably aren't going to want to hear this, but Hillary's resume' appears to be more directed toward working with the poor, children, and considering what she helped do to Nixon, decidedly not republican in origin.

That's not to say Obama hasn't done a lot of public oriented work, but his resume' appears light in comparison. Additionally, the Obama's are not living a life of deprivation. Apparently Michelle earns $6,000 a month by herself and from where I'm sitting, that's a real nice paycheck. And Obama did spend time writing a personal memoir. That should count for something, right?

[question everything]

1. But... but... Obama has the right skin color

:sarcasm:

[Levgreee]

2. Hillary was a corporate lawyer, Obama was a civil rights lawyer

you think a corporate lawyer is better suited?

Anyways, her high school was definitely not lacking.

Maine South High School

"In 2006, Maine South had an average composite ACT score of 24.2"

"The Maine South marching and concert bands, are two of the most respected music programs in the area. The school also features an award winning orchestra."

"Maine South is ranked 14th among public high schools in the Chicago area, ranked according to percentage of students passing the Prairie State Achievement Examination.<1> Maine South is ranked 17th by the Chicago Sun Times among public high schools in the Chicago area, ranked according to PSAE scores."

As for the neighborhood, where she lived from the age of 3.

"The median income for a household in the city was $73,154, and the median income for a family was $87,795."

He father owned a small, but successful textile business, so they were certainly doing okay, and could have sent Hillary to a private school if desired.



And just because Obama attended a private high school does mean he was better off than Hillary. Also, just because Obama's activities in college are not highlighted in wikipedia as Hillary's are, does not mean he didn't do anything.

I believe something could be said for Obama living in a not so well to do Indonesian area for 4 years, even if it wasn't done out of necessity.


Overall, they were both middle class, so wealth wise as children they were pretty comparable. As adults I believe Hillary had a faster rise to wealth than Obama, and went on a path that sent her farther away from the poor(corporate lawyer, Wal-Mart board), rather than Obama, who worked as a community organizer for a good amount of time.

[DarienComp]

3. Why do you leave out that Obama went on a scholarship?

[Levgreee]

4. Yes, I am reading more now, he recieved a scholarship and rarely found someone who had less than him

there.

"Most of his classmates lived in “split-level homes with swimming pools,” he wrote. Obama lived in an apartment near school and worked at a burger chain and Baskin-Robbins before graduating.

“Rarely did I meet kids whose families had less than mine and might remind me of good fortune,” he wrote."

http://www.dispatchpolitics.com/live/content/insight/stories/2008/03/30/punahou.html?sid=101

[cornermouse]

5. Probably because if you read the biographies you'll see that his grandma

the bank Vice President sent him...

Other inconsistencies are his statement that he was brooding and unhappy while his classmates say he was outgoing and happy.

[Levgreee]

8. That doesn't mean he claimed he was brooding and unhappy all the time

Why are you skeptical that a young boy would be brooding and unhappy if he had been abandoned by his father, and was in part an outsider to his peers, both because of his race, and because of his background?

[Mass]

29. Do you know what is a bank vice president?

There was a joke some time ago that everybody in a bank was bank vice-president, and, as far as I can see from my local branch of a local bank in a small MA town, it is true. They have at least 6 vice presidents for 12 people working there.

[anonymous171]

6. What did she do with that education? Oh yeah, she became a corporate lawyer

and joined up with a company infamous for it's anti-union practices.

[cornermouse]

7. Didn't bother to read the bio did you?

Not that I thought the Obama followers would...

"During her second year, she worked at the Yale Child Study Center, learning about new research on early childhood brain development and working as a research assistant on the seminal work, Beyond the Best Interests of the Child (1973). She also took on cases of child abuse at Yale-New Haven Hospital, and volunteered at New Haven Legal Services to provide free advice for the poor."

In the summer of 1970, she was awarded a grant to work at Marian Wright Edelman's Washington Research Project, where she was assigned to Senator Walter Mondale's Subcommittee on Migratory Labor, researching migrant workers' problems in housing, sanitation, health and education; Edelman would become a significant mentor to her."

"Rodham organized a two-day student strike and worked with Wellesley's black students for moderate changes, such as recruiting more black students and faculty" and "In the summer of 1970, she was awarded a grant to work at Marian Wright Edelman's Washington Research Project, where she was assigned to Senator Walter Mondale's Subcommittee on Migratory Labor, researching migrant workers' problems in housing, sanitation, health and education"

"she interned on child custody cases at the Oakland, California, law firm of Treuhaft, Walker and Burnstein, which was well-known for its support of constitutional rights, civil liberties, and radical causes; two of its four partners were current or former communist party members"...

[Levgreee]

9. If you are talking about the bio you just posted, you posted nothing about her professional career

only what she did during college.

[cornermouse]

12. Arkansas - after college-some of it while she was working for Rose Law Firm

"Rodham maintained her interest in children's law and family policy, publishing the scholarly articles "Children's Policies: Abandonment and Neglect" in 1977 and "Children's Rights: A Legal Perspective" in 1979. The latter continued her argument that legal competence of children depended upon their age and other circumstances, and that in cases of serious medical rights judicial intervention is sometimes warranted."

"Rodham co-founded the Arkansas Advocates for Children and Families, a state-level alliance with the Children's Defense Fund, in 1977. In late 1977, President Jimmy Carter (for whom Rodham had done 1976 campaign coordination work in Indiana) appointed her to the board of directors of the Legal Services Corporation, and she served in that capacity from 1978 until the end of 1981."

"As First Lady of Arkansas, Hillary Clinton chaired the Arkansas Educational Standards Committee from 1982 to 1992,<95> where she sought to bring about reform in the state's court-sanctioned public education system."

[Mooney]

18. Then she voted to authorize the Iraq War.

She isn't fit to be night manager at a Wendy's in Jacksonville, FL, much less president of the United States.

[cornermouse]

21. If that's the criteria

we have a lot of senators and representatives who did the same thing. By the way, do you remember Bush's nasty little habit of not delivering the text of things that they were expected to vote on till 2 or 3 hours before the scheduled vote?

[Mooney]

24. Yes, a lot of senators and representatives did the same thing.

And only one of them is running for the Democratic nomination for president. And for that reason, I won't vote for her until there is absolutely no other choice.

[susankh4]

11. While serving on Wal-Mart's board...

she fought for the rights of women to equal numbers of promotions.

And for environmental/ community responsibility.

Why leave that part out?

[Levgreee]

13. She did not really make progress in those regards, and she did nothing to speak out for unions

What exactly is there to leave out? She didn't really actually DO much, that I have heard of.

[cornermouse]

16. sigh.

"once there, she pushed successfully for the chain to adopt more environmentally-friendly practices".

"Mrs. Clinton had greater success on environmental issues. At her request, Mr. Walton set up the environmental advisory group, which sent a series of recommendations to the company’s board...

...Under her watch, the advisory group drew up elaborate plans. Consumers would bring in used motor oil and batteries for recycling. Suppliers would reduce the size of their packaging. And Wal-Mart would build stores with energy-saving features.

Wal-Mart executives put much of the program into place. In 1993, for example, they opened an experimental “eco-store” in Kansas, with skylights and wooden beams from forests that had not been clear cut."

[Levgreee]

23. Wow, that's a lot.... not.

They tried out one experimental eco-store, out of hundreds, probably thousands, that they built. And they didn't continue to carry out the experiment...
Suppliers (how many, who) reduced packaging sizes.
They built stores which saved more energy.
(both these things happen to bring more money into Wal-Mart)
The recycling motor oil and batteries is commendable, but it is not much and we do not even has evidence of the success of that program.

in the meantime they imported foreign goods in countries with no environmental standards for the factories that produced them. They made small, largely superficial changes which made no significant impact on the business's impact.


Hillary did great for them, giving the illusion for token progress while Wal-Mart continued its rape of the Environment and Labor.

[cornermouse]

25. The paragraph that I didn't copy and paste about the eco store.

"One executive derided it as “Hillary’s store” because it was more expensive to build than the average Wal-Mart, but several of its features, like the skylights that cut energy bills by reducing the need for artificial lighting, were widely copied across the industry.

“We were on the leading edge of something that is being mandated now,” said Bill Fields, the head of merchandise at Wal-Mart in the early 1990s who worked closely with Mrs. Clinton on the environmental project...

...In the early 1980s, for example, Mr. Walton was instrumental in building support for a corporate tax program, pushed by Mrs. Clinton, that financed a major education overhaul in Arkansas, a signal achievement of her husband’s governorship."

[cornermouse]

26. dupe

[susankh4]

10. Yes indeedy....

she is born of the working class. Raised by a blue collar family (tho her dad did attend college, he could not find a job... so he worked in his father's line of business: textiles.)

Hill's mom was abandoned as a young girl, and left to fend for herself.

The story is certainly NOT of an elite family life. Merely, hardworking folk who were insistant that their children attend good schools.

[cornermouse]

14. Looking at their respective resumes' there really isn't much

comparison. Obama's not even close. I hadn't ever looked that closely at her history before tonight. As a voter, I'm actually more concerned about what she's done more recently but the biography is extremely impressive.

[Levgreee]

15. Her dad owned a small, but successful, textile business.

A successful business owner is not poor, and their neighborhood was not poor either.

[susankh4]

17. I grew up in a small family business

It was successful.

We were far from rich.

But, my family really believed in education. And that's where most of their money went. Like Hillary's family... I suspect.

At any rate... she can not be braodbrushed as someone who was born with a Silver Spoon. That would be GWB. But not Hill.

[cornermouse]

20. Grandma Obama was a Vice President in a bank

Grandpa Obama was a furniture store manager. Not actually poor people.

[TheDoorbellRang]

19. Here's an article that compares what they've accomplished for others

Read it if you wish. Here's the author's conclusion:

There is no way to assess the value of each candidate's participation in collective efforts to serve our country. Clinton has given time to many efforts and lived approximately 5,000 more days than Obama, amassing supporters, money and fame. But time spent achieving such goals can hardly be seen as accomplishments for the good of the people.

Obama's accomplishments show greater efficiency and clarity of purpose, forming productive alliances, making the most of his comparatively short career.

People talk about his charisma, but give me that skill and focus, trained on a four-year term, and we could see unprecedented results.



http://www.unionleader.com/article.aspx?headline=Paul+B.+Hertneky%3a+Let%27s+compare+the+public+accomplishments+of+Clinton+and+Obama&articleId=11dc4bb6-bc19-4f73-97a4-400fbd3dad27

[cornermouse]

22. I see....

A history of advocating for children, healthcare (pre-White House days), and the poor is not an accomplishment for the good of the people any more?

[sniffa]

27. Is that before, or after her stint at Walmart?

:shrug:

[TheDoorbellRang]

30. I'd like to see what Repub;ican she's ever bested in a "fight"

She claims she's been fighting them for decades now. So tell me, where is a battle with them that she, personally, has won?

Don't get me wrong, I'd vote for her before McCain, but it would be a dreary vote indeed, with no expectations of improvement for America. Show me a battle she's won, and maybe the prospect of voting for her wouldn't depress me so much.

[cornermouse]

32. Nixon.

Read her bio.

[TheDoorbellRang]

34. Nothing more recent? Nothing she led on?

Do you see why I don't have much confidence in her fighting skills? I think her entire mindset undermines any ability to accomplish our goals for government. Fighting in and of itself doesn't net any gains. OTOH, the ability to convince the opposite party that the desired goal is a core value can produce results. This is a skill that Obama has demonstrated more than once, and it is why I support him over Clinton -- not because of issues, but because of the difference in their personal styles in achieving progressive goals.

[Mass]

28. Total disconnect with reality - A bank vice president is a meaningless title.

It could go (nowadays) from $30,000 to $100,000 and more depending what the responsibilities are. Given that we are talking about a woman in the 1970s, it was probably at the low end of the fork. Not a low salary, but nothing like you seem to think. The same thing goes for what his grandfather was doing.

They were middle class people earning their life and unable to afford a private school like that for their grandson without a scholarship.

As for Obama's resume being light compared to Hillary, except for the first years as a corporate lawyer, her job was basically to be a first lady. A lot of responsibilities, but it should not diminish Obama's role. He decided to work for poor people and those who help them, not for his personal glory, for a large part of his life. This should count for something,right?

[cornermouse]

31. Right.....

Grandma Obama slept on a grate in the alley and sewed feed bags together to make little Obama a t-shirt and pair of shorts for P.E. on the tennis courts. After she spent her day in the bank as Vice President, she would spend the rest of the evening picking up aluminum cans from the roadside on Tuesdays and Thursdays and going through the trashcans people set out on the streets for pick-up on Mondays and Wednesdays. After she finally got home, she'd smoke some tobacco in her corncob pipe and tell little Obama about her childhood in Kansas which is where grown-up Obama formed his views of what people in the midwest think. :sarcasm:

[Mass]

33. Uh? No clue what you are talking about? This has to be one of the most inept thread today, and it is

a standard difficult to hold. You are attacking Obama on something NOBODY says, and you insist on it by going overboard. There was ONE candidate who had live the live you are describing. It is Kucinich and he is far from supporting your candidate. All the other ones have lived relatively protected life, even if NONE was born rich. So, what's your point? Can you make it in meaningful points or is it another of the Clinston supporters threads where they have to attack Obama even when they do not know on what?